Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 02.08.2006 /
I stepped into an Irish Catholic church yesterday morning for my first mass experience. I expected a sermon but I got very little of that. People were already silent when I walked in, praying, though mass hadn’t started. This was admittedly a short service, but I think it encompassed what I expected. The pastor read a couple Bible verses, shared some stories, and then gave out communion. Somewhere in there, there was a lot of kneeling.
I did find myself listening pretty intently when the pastor talked about how we shouldn’t value materialistic things (in lieu of god). He talked about how he had given up smoking decades ago, but he said the exact year, month, day, hour… he even kept the last ashtray he used. He had my complete attention. Then he talked about communion and I faded. But for a good 2 minutes, I was quite into it.
The idea in itself isn’t a bad one. I mean, whether you’re a believer or not, we should value family and friends before fads and trends. The Bible takes it a step further and says put your god before even your loved ones. Which makes no sense to me. The whole story about Abraham having to sacrifice his son Isaac never made me think Abraham was a good man. He was someone willing to sacrifice his family. And from an Atheist’s perspective, he’s having to do it due to voices that he’s hearing in his head. Which is just frightening.
Otherwise, the service was pretty low-key. I did wonder if every person that attended actually knew why they did every ritual they did. Why kneel? Why do the sign of the cross when you enter? Why say the Hail Mary? I mean, I guess I have an idea of what they’re supposed to mean, but like any ritual, if they didn’t do it, would these people be any different?
Tonight, I’m going to change gears completely. I’ll be going to Willow Creek Community Church, which is *the* megachurch near Chicago. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
–Hemant
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Comment by: Roman Catholic
1 02/8/06 12:38 PM | Comment Link |For practicing Catholics, EVERY aspect of Mass has some historical, scriptural or symbolic reference. Indeed, 2000 years of philosphy and theology have been written about the Mass, I could not begin to do it justice. The only thing I will say, which will distinguish Catholics from most (all but two or three) other Christian faiths, is that we believe Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, under the appearance of bread. It is a fullfillment of the Jewish passover and partaking of the lamb, as well as unleven bread.
The Mass is artistically rich and gives deep reverence to God, which, I hope you understand even as an atheist(if God were to exist), He deserves reverence.
For a different and more reverent, traditional Catholic experience, I recommend this Chicago parish.
http://www.cantius.org/
I have never been there, but based on the website, I can tell this would be a great experience for you, especially after going to a few Mega churches.
Comment by: sarah louise
2 02/8/06 2:01 PM | Comment Link |I would recommend the Second Presbyterian Church at 1936 Michigan. I went there when I was at a conference this summer and found it a small but very loving congregation. It was predominantly African-American, but not completely, and as a Caucasian woman I did not feel out of place. Also, it has great Tiffany stained glass windows. Good luck in your endeavor.
Comment by: kim
3 02/8/06 2:17 PM | Comment Link |I attended Mass many times when I was a student at a Catholic school and I never really understood all of what was going on. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Willow. To bad you aren’t going on a weekend, those are their “seeker” services designed for people who aren’t Christians and it would have been great hearing your thougts on that.
Comment by: wes
4 02/8/06 2:47 PM | Comment Link |Make sure you brush your hair, put on nice clothes, and bring a bible. You’ll fit right in…
Comment by: Texan
5 02/8/06 3:07 PM | Comment Link |A good book to read on Catholicism is “The Idiots Guide to Catholicism.” It’s the orange one at the book store, not the yellow one called “Catholicism for Dummies.”(the yellow one isn’t as good) It goes through every major and minor Catholic belief in a very graceful way and is very understandable. It helped me out very much. I learned that Catholic spirituality is incredibly deep and rich.
Remember, just becuase something isn’t seen, doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Good luck in your journey.
Comment by: kim
6 02/8/06 4:34 PM | Comment Link |Texan, thanks for letting us know. Even though I’m not Catholic many of my family members are and I’d like to know more about it. An “idiot’s guide” sounds perfect for me. :)
Comment by: Meagan
7 02/8/06 5:00 PM | Comment Link |Hement!! I have actually been thinking about that story where Abraham is asked to sacrifice Isaac… I read the story last night! I don’t know if you think that is neat but I sure do. I really began to analyze the story and it finally began to make sense.
You see, God had promised Abraham that he would have many descendants. So, long story short, when God gave Abraham a child through his wife Sarah (who is Isaac) he tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice Isaac back to him.
Ok, so yes, that is odd. But listen to this! The verse actually says (Abraham is talking to his servants that went with him to the mountain to sacrifice Isaac), “stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then WE will come back to you.”
Abraham was being obedient to what God was telling him to do. But at the same time he must have been thinking… “Okay God, I know you’ve promised me many descendents through Isaac so I know you’ll provide either a way out of this or you’ll raise him from the dead.” Okay, so I don’t know exactly what he was thinking … but he did say that they would both return to the servants. God provided a ram for the sacrifice and Isaac was not killed.
I think this story is a picture of trusting God with even the things that are most important to us. I got really excited when you mentioned that story because it is so fresh on my mind. Oh, and I totally agree that rituals are pointless if you don’t know in your heart why you are doing them. I hope things are going well with school and such. Let me hear from you sometime!
-Meagan
Comment by: Meagan
8 02/8/06 5:27 PM | Comment Link |Hemant, in all the excitement I misspelled your name. (Sorry about the goof) -Meagan
Comment by: Tim Rice
9 02/8/06 6:54 PM | Comment Link |Sometimes, I think, we can’t really understand rituals until we’ve done them for years. I think I have a pretty thick skull and it takes a while for the meaning to penetrate.
Comment by: luiza
10 02/8/06 10:34 PM | Comment Link |When I went to college our teachers said that , honestly, there are some stories (like this Abraham story) that are baffling and we may have to live with them like that for a long time. Bishop NT Wright also says the same thing. Some people may find that scary (?) but I think it is honest to say, well, I really don’t know. Because, what was God doing? I can’t answer that. Sorry, Meagan, I’m not trying to dismiss what you’ve said! :) but i’m saying that as a christian i am not able to say definitely what the story is all about. I think that’s ok - i have a lifetime to meditate on it!
Comment by: Andrew Jackson
11 02/9/06 12:44 AM | Comment Link |Nice opener. I notice how many of these comments come from believers, which I also am.
On the whole I seriously doubt that anyone fully understands the reasoning behind any of the rituals - even those who have read the books. This of itself doesn’t bother me much as there are plenty of things I don’t understand yet experience tells me they work. Be careful not to confuse how we interpret what is happening with what is happening itself.
Enjoy Willow Creek.
Comment by: Graeme Currie
12 02/9/06 1:50 AM | Comment Link |I had a happy unquestioning churchgoing childhood and have been a more or less contented free thinker ever since. While I personally reject religion on philosophical grounds, I realize that those who profess belief in spirits, gods, ghosts and such like generally do so based on irrational factors (which is, of course, not necessarily a bad thing). It therefore annoys me when the irrationality of religion is held up as if it were proof of its overall unworthiness. The simple fact of the matter is that believers, churchgoers, Christians, whatever you want to call them are, in every single case, motivated by factors other than the ‘rationality’ that is being used as a yardstick by which to condemn them.
The absolutely central fact of all religion - from Judaism to Buddhism - is the truth “which passeth human understanding”. Whether this is embodied in a personal feeling, a sense of community, a revealed ‘truth’, a body of laws, an ethic, a vision, a ritual, a practice, or whatever, it is never subject to ‘mere’ reason.
Now, the philosophers among us need to recognize this and take it into account when criticizing religion. Remembering David Hume, we should meditate on the fact that “Reason is and ought to be the slave of the passions”.
Comment by: Mark
13 02/9/06 5:17 AM | Comment Link |I grew up outside Joliet, IL and am an atheist. When I heard about the atheist going to church via ebay bidding I thought it was wierd. I now realize that both sides are making it a worthy cause. My guess is you will find out most, but not all, parishioners are normal people and some are quite unique in what they believe. I’d also be curious to see if it solidified your atheistic view though you enjoyed the journey.
Comment by: Jess
14 02/9/06 5:24 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant!
Interesting thoughts about the Catholic service. To tell you the truth, I feel/felt the same way. I grew up going to Catholic masses every week (and then not every week…) and I completely missed the point. I’m not saying that no one can experience God in a Catholic mass, but I am saying that I couldn’t. There are many people that go to church every week and, as you say, don’t know why they are doing what they are doing. There are also people that go and do know. I think the main thing I’m trying to say is that it’s different for everyone. I went to Catholic chatecism and mass for 14 years and I didn’t have a relationship with God. Religion doesn’t cut it. God wants our hearts.
I’m also interested to hear your thoughts about Willow Creek. :)
p.s. Texan, thanks for the book recommendation
Comment by: Paul
15 02/9/06 5:35 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant
thanks for posting your experiences. In fact thanks for having the balls to go to so different churches and reflecting your thoughts, feelings, insights back. It’s not easy for anyone to walk on into a new environment - so am in total respect even if you are being paid :)
You clearly are treating the whole project and the people you encounter with respect and I look forward to hearing more of your honest reflections on the places you go, the experiences you face and the people you encounter. I’m so often guily of characterising and labelling the people beyond church its gonna be a refreshing insight to hear from you and for you to turn the spotlight on us!
A question I have from your visit to old St Patricks - you said you were in the zone so to speak and connected with not valuing materilistic thangs but then lost you with communinion. I was wondering please if you could maybe expand a little bit more on that - why did you feel you were fading out there - was it that you were thinking about the family/friends vs God dimension, or that what the priest was saying didn’t connect with his sermon or something entirely else?
Thanks very much, good luck with your visits and wishing you all the very best!
Comment by: Teresa
16 02/9/06 6:49 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant,
Thanks for your review, and I look forward to reading further posts. I also am following your posts and the comments on your blogspot entries, and I wanted to say that I’m sorry for the animosity present in some of the comments there. That was disappointing to read. At any rate, thanks for checking out these churches and giving us your feedback. And thanks for your honesty and respect as well, as you take this journey. I look forward to hearing from you again!
Comment by: Jim in Scottsdale
17 02/9/06 8:08 AM | Comment Link |I just want to say thank you to Graeme Currie. Your Hume quote puts a whole new spin on things for this atheist. And best of luck to Hemant on his journey - I shall be following closely.
Comment by: David Buckham in St. Petersburg, Florida
18 02/9/06 9:27 AM | Comment Link |Did anyone else notice Hemant experience involved a building and a preist (who Hemant didn’t even meet). I am not saying go shake everyone’s hand, but what about the people?!? Church is not and cannot be tied to one piece of space nor can it be tied to one day of the week. Did Hemant go to a “typical” American church? Here’s your sermon, here’s the worship, here’s some communion (or sacriments/eucharist or whatever you want to call it). Have it your way. I hope his experience at Willow isn’t a “supersized” version of the church value meal he just got. Maybe it’s just my opinion and maybe I am wrong, but was there any connection made to anyone at the church so that questions like the ones he possed regarding the Abraham story could be answered?
Hemant, keep it up. I am still waiting for your answer about coming down to Florida for a week or so. Not only will I be reading, and occasionally posting, I will also be praying for your experience to be an uplifting and educational one, if not for you then for all of us.
all about Christ,
David
Comment by: Hemant
19 02/9/06 1:06 PM | Comment Link |I do think that if someone were to connect with god, it’d have to be on a mental/spiritual level. I don’t think it’ll happen because I bend my knees or recite a few words. Which is why the rituals don’t do anything for me. Which is also why I don’t think communion does anything either. If you think it’s the blood/flesh of Christ, maybe you feel good when you have it. But I can’t imagine all those people really believe that.
To answer Paul’s question, I was listening to the sermon when he spoke from his heart about his story. However, as soon as he finished the story, he seemed to go back into “script” mode to deliver the communion. And that’s when it became boring again.
To answer David’s comments, no, I did not get a chance to interact with the people at this particular service. However, maybe because it was a 12:00 mass, no one seemed to talk during or after the service. After communion, they all went their own separate ways. I do hope I can ask these questions to church-goers as I continue doing this. But for the time being, everyone posting is doing the job :)
Thanks to everyone for your kind words. I’m reading them all, even if I may not respond to every single one.
– Hemant
Comment by: Cyndee
20 02/10/06 1:17 PM | Comment Link |Keep walking, Hemant. Keep your eyes and ears open. Jesus questioned the rituals too. When all is said and done, those who follow Jesus in their heart, not in their ritual, will see God.
Comment by: Roman Catholic
21 02/10/06 1:45 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Texan, for the book recommendation. “Idiot’s Guide to Catholicism” sounds like a great way to learn Catholicism from a safe distance.
Hemant,
I recommended going to a latin Mass, because I think it puts the ancient “rituals” in perspective. When you hear Mass in a dead language, the history ooozes out.
This is a really interesting project you have taken on. I never would have believed that an ebay auction could spawn a cyber community inter-religious/atheist econversation and xperience. I hope everyone remains civil. We have much to learn from each other. I’ve never been to a mega church. It’s nice to get your impression.
Comment by: Tim K
22 02/13/06 3:46 PM | Comment Link |Hemant said,
“we should value family and friends before fads and trends”
Why? I’m assuming you’re making a moral judgment, but I’m not sure I agree. Where in the world did the idea that we should value family over fads come from?!? Help…
Comment by: Rick
23 02/14/06 12:33 PM | Comment Link |Tm K: “I’m assuming you’re making a moral judgment”
I think you have got it right. The part where you disagree is exactly where “lets agree to disagree” part begins. A simple answer for your ‘why’, would be “giving priorities”.
Comment by: Doug
24 02/14/06 6:18 PM | Comment Link |2 points:
The book of Hebrews (New Testament) says that Abraham believed that God was going to resurrect Isaac. That explains the “we will return” statement (see above).
Worship, when done well, is much more like art than algebra. There is a sense in which the more you understand it, the less it becomes.
Comment by: jacque wallace
25 02/27/06 10:55 AM | Comment Link |I am heartened and energized by the tone of the feedback that Hemant is receiving and I am enormously impressed by the breadth of his spirit and intellect. I would never have believed that christian evangelicals would have the capacity to interact with an “infidel” on such a respectful and moderate level and it is really enlightening and gives me great hope for all of us. thanks Hemant and OTM - Jacque
Comment by: Diana
26 03/9/06 12:13 AM | Comment Link |I’m Catholic and I’d just like to comment that I find it interesting to see how many atheists have taken such a keen interest in Hemant’s journey. Like they’re looking for a reason to believe. That your’re looking is your reason.
Comment by: Ir
27 03/9/06 4:26 AM | Comment Link |Hi Diana,
Actually, I don’t think the atheists taking an interest are doing so because they’re looking for for a reason to believe. I’ve seen no reason to think they are dissatisfied with their atheism and looking for a reason to move away from it.
Comment by: fran
28 03/9/06 5:09 AM | Comment Link |I think this is an opportunity for atheists to reaffirm their disbelief in ghostly creatures . I would bet most are getting a chuckle from the statements
Comment by: Susana
29 03/13/06 5:44 PM | Comment Link |ref the comment about less liturgy, I’d recommend reading a book by Scott Hahn called “The Lamb’s Supper”, published by Doubleday and having your Bible with you. Another good book is “Catholicism for Dummies”.. the liturgy and the word go hand in hand, these books will help you understand how and maybe answer why. I hope these help.
Comment by: Emma
30 03/16/06 1:15 PM | Comment Link |It always amuses me when someone goes to a Cathoic Church, or any Church, once and then makes suggestions or complaints. Catholics, for the most part, do understand their ritual. There are sacraments and training you recieve when you become or are raised a Catholic. Many are traditions that can not be just picked up and understood without background. Catholics do not believe that ritual is the only way to find God - but it something that is part of their history. And helps to focus their thoughts. The fist comment mentioned that Catholics believe that the bead and wine become the body and blood of Christ within the service. This is the apex of the mass. If this is unknown to you, then the mass will go right over your head, along with why Catholics kneel. It is reverence. I’ve meet a lot of non-Catholic Christians who have been to Catholic mass at some point and found it inspiring and followed along just fine.
And yes, even if Catholics didn’t do all these rituals, they would still be different. Go out and buy yourself a copy of the Catechism.
Comment by: lestamore
31 06/11/06 11:33 PM | Comment Link |As a non-christian who went to catholic school for 7 years, I always felt that the mass was basically a cultural expresion of the need people have for shared ritual. Its really ritually, everyone does the same thing, and it is meaningful for those involved. Rosary adds a dimention of meditation. I always really enjoyed it although the meaning it had for me was different than the one it had for catholics.