Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 02.09.2006 /
So, the first impression I had as I drove into WCCC (Bill Hybel’s megachurch in South Barrington, IL) was the parking lot. And how it was full. On a Wednesday night. I went inside the building. I’ve never heard of a church with escalators… when I entered the auditorium, I realized I hadn’t seen that many white people in one place in a *long* time.
I watched Pastor Randy Frazee give a sermon on a section of Luke, when Christ ressurected the “widow’s son.” While I didn’t think any of that was actually true (Either it didn’t happen, or the son was never really dead), I was still captivated by the way Frazee spoke. He spoke (digressed?) about his mother and how she had been sick, and how she later died, even though he had prayed as much as he could to keep her alive. It was a powerful speech. And I felt sorry that he had to go through all that. In the end, he managed to relate it back to the part of the scripture. Again, I don’t believe the prayers did anything, but I understand how a son would do anything he could to help keep his mother alive.
I was surprised he had me listening so attentively. I know the sermon could very easily have been boring. After he finished, a small 4-person band sang many songs. The audience sang along. I noticed many people who had their eyes closed, which didn’t surprise me. What did surprise me was the whole “Hand up in the air as I sing for Jesus” gesture. Which was followed by the “I’m going to out-Jesufy you and put two hands up in the air as I sing for Jesus” gesture. I don’t get that. Regardless, the music was good.
The megachurch had everything seemingly taken care of. From my vantage point, there were 4 huge television screens to watch the service. (There were many more everywhere else in the building.) When Frazee recited scripture, it was up on the screen. The broadcasting-aspect of the service was extremely professional. There was a soundproof area in the back where people with crying babies could listen to the service. There was a sign-language section. A separate handicapped section. Outside the auditorium, there was a cafe, another cafeteria, a bookstore, a prayer room… It was impressive. It’s not hard to see how people could spend their whole lives *in* this church. And I can understand why it’s so popular. But just because something is popular doesn’t make it right (see below).
I was curious how much money they took in. According to the pamphlet I was given, they made nearly $500,000 in the past week. And over $2,000,000 since the year began.
They also had job postings for the church. (Atheists don’t have this system down. It’s difficult to have a career being an Atheist. It wouldn’t be hard here, though, if I wanted to work full time as a Christian.) What bothered me was they asked company owners and hiring managers to post job openings on their “Job Connection” board. They’re asking bosses to hire people simply based on the fact that they’re Christian… which, if these bosses work outside the church, seems illegal to me.
I’ll admit that if I were to convert, it would have to be at a place like this. They drew me in, and I’m not even a believer. They discarded the numerous rituals I expect to see at other churches. The sermon was interesting, and the activities that they hold would certainly be entertaining (e.g. A lecture called “Who’s Your Daddy? Adam or Ape?”) However, the whole idea that a church of this size would be promoting Intelligent Design and non-scientific theories about the Earth’s origins scares me. Because if they’re doing it, the other megachurches are doing it. And if they’re all doing it, they’re rallying an army of millions of people who don’t know how science works against the precious minority who do. Frightening.
One funny point: As soon as the sermon ended and the singing began, I could see a good number of people begin to leave. It’s like they were at a sports game and the final score was already decided. They wanted to leave early to avoid the traffic. I didn’t know that was permitted at church.
– Hemant
Comment by: kim
1Great thoughts Hemant! I think it is very interesting that one of the biggest turn-offs for you was the seminar on intelligent design. A very famous atheist from France, Bernard Henri Levy, recently visited Willow on a day when Lee Strobel was discussing Intelligent Design and that was very disturbing to him. Would you say that your understanding of science is one of the greatest reasons you are an atheist?
(I agree that the Randy Frazee’s message was very touching. When he talked about carrying his mother to the car on his back…so sad!)
Comment by: Debbie
2Hi Hemant. I’m keeping track and think you’re doing great. I go to Parkview Christian Church and I think it’s almost like Willow Creek but not as large. I notice you thought it was strange that some people leave right after the sermon. Sometimes that might be because they have to attend to something right after the service and they need to get in place, possibly Sunday School or some other service. Good luck and keep going, you’re going in the right direction.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3Hemant
Just a thought - when you read a comment like “you’re going in the right direction” what does it sound like to you?
Comment by: Sara
4[What did surprise me was the whole "Hand up in the air as I sing for Jesus" gesture. Which was followed by the "I'm going to out-Jesufy you and put two hands up in the air as I sing for Jesus" gesture. I don't get that.]
I think it may be for this reason.
According to Scripture:
“I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands.” Psalm 63:4 (NIV) I like the Message version better… “I bless you every time I take a breath; My arms wave like banners of praise to you.” Same verse.
And:
“I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.” 1 Timothy 2:8 (NIV) Again, the Message: “Since prayer is at the bottom of all this, what I want mostly is for men to pray–not shaking angry fists at enemies but raising holy hands to God.”
Really hope this helps clarify, at least a little, why people raise their hands while worshiping. :)
Be blessed in your adventures!
For His glory!
Tink
Comment by: Hemant
5Kim– My understanding of science only confirmed my Atheism, since most of my science knowledge came to me after I turned Atheist. But it was my own thinking (Rational, logical… I suppose scientifically, I didn’t think god could exist either) that initially made me an Atheist.
Debbie/Jim– “I’m going in the right direction”… I have no idea what that means. I assume it means I’m getting closer to accepting Christ. But I don’t think I’m any closer to that.
Sara– That would explain the hand thing, yes… but I honestly think if I were to ask someone who did the hand thing why, they would not be able to quote me the verse. I think they do it just because they see other people doing it. Of course, I need to test this… (I actually wanted to do this last night, but my own embarrassment of asking such a question prevented me from doing so)
Comment by: luiza
6Hi Hemant, how did you feel about the people there? Did you meet any and if so were they welcoming? You mentioned that there were a lot of white people :) so did you feel out of place or comfortable? And do you think that the professionalism and the sermon would be enough to keep you belonging to a church like this? (If you were a Christian!) Sorry! Lots of questions!
Comment by: Dean
7I find it funny that Christians have to answer every single question that is posed to/about their faith on a blog - whether it was really a question or not. Example - Hemant never asked why people raised their hands during the songs, but everyone feels compelled to explain or defend the action. This has occurred over and over just in the short time that Hemant has been dialoguing here. Again, I simply find this funny.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8Dean
Talk a little more about your observations per this obsessive need to explain ourselves even when we aren’t asked to.
What triggers that urge and what do you think people are hoping will happen if they just point out “one more passage”
Comment by: Chuck
9As a Christian with a “medium” view of the bible, I find one of my biggest turnoffs in churches is when everything in a mission statement or set of programs has to be justified with a bible verse. I wish we could use the approach Paul used in his Mars Hill speech and appeal to those universal needs/desires in everyone - love, meaning, etc. I spent many years as an atheist, and still have great empathy with skeptics. When I was in an athesitic pair of shoes, I felt that people in the church only showed love because they found a bible verse that told them they were supposed to. There’s a great song from a phenomenal musician named Ken Medema - “Don’t tell me I’ve got a friend in Jesus without showing me first that I’ve got a friend in you.”
Comment by: Hemant
10Luiza– I only observed the people there; I didn’t talk to them that night. I get the feeling they’d be welcoming, though.
And while I only saw white people, I didn’t feel uncomfortable at all. It was just something I saw…
And if I were Christian, yeah, I’d be drawn to this place. They clearly have their stuff together.
Comment by: Paul
11Hi Hemant, another great set of thoughts and reflections, thanks for posting! Can I encourage you to please ask folks questions you have about what you see, i think it would be wonderful for me to have someone say, heh could you please tell me why you just did that… too often no one asks me that question and too often I just go along with the flow, so i’m already reflecting inward on my own time on that.
Thanks very much!
Comment by: Carol
12Hemant-I think you are doing a great job…and you’ve done it with a sense of humor!
When you were at the two churches, did you have a sense that there was a kind of ’secret code language’ in the way the pastor/priest/’members’ spoke? Do you have any further thoughts as to why people would sing songs after the pastor finished his sermon? I’ve went to seminars and after the presentation, we don’t stand and sing songs… You said you weren’t surprised that people had their eyes closed while they were singing songs…can you talk a bit more about why that didn’t surprise you?
BTW-I enjoyed your comment about ‘permitted’ to leave early…great observation.
I would like to comment on ‘obsessive need to explain ourselves even when we aren’t asked to.’ I’ve had conversations where I didn’t agree with the other person’s perspective. When I would just state, ‘yes, but I don’t agree’ the other person would feel the need to repeat everything they had just said, even if I would repeat back to them exactly what they said. Again, I would say, ‘I understand, but I don’t agree’, and again they would repeat what they said, thinking it they said it often enough I would agree. Hemant observations have been just that, observations. Other than the comment, ‘While I didn’t think any of that was actually true’ (which no one felt the need to address) everything else has been neutral. Why do we feel like we have to explain it? On our own part, we decide in our own mind, that if you would just agree with our position as to why something is the way it is, you wouldn’t find it strange (or embrace it) and ‘join our side’. In our own mind, we need to draw up sides and find out who’s side you’re on…are you ‘in’ or are you ‘out’? Of course, we are assuming the side we are on is ‘in’…
How will we ever grow when we draw lines?
Comment by: Teresa
13Hey Hemant,
Thanks for your feedback on WCCC! I do wonder why you thought raising 2 hands meant the person was trying to outdo the person with only one hand in the air? There’s no way to really know what people are thinking or why they do something. No one likes to be prejudged like that. If you were at a rock concert and people in the crowd were jumping or shouting or whatever, would you think they were trying to outdo each other? Just wondering.
It’s interesting that they discarded rituals that you expected to see. I’m curious about how other churches will fair in that regard. At any rate, thanks again for your input and thoughts–it’s much appreciated!
Comment by: Matt
14Teresa, I think that to some extent people in a rock concert do try to outdo others. Everyone has an opinion about who they are and I think that if you are the kind of person who follows the crowd without feeling embarrassed, then you will be moshing with the rest. Some people feel the need to go stagediving and crowdsurfing. I have done this and while I did it because I was really “amped” (as todays youth would say, I also did it because it seemed like something really cool to do. Everybody was bobbing their heads and jumping, but only the “elite” were doing really crazy stuff like crowdsurfing. I suppose that to some extent, I wanted to join the elite.
Comment by: Matt
15Hemant, I once attended a modern-style church with a born-again friend who was continually preaching to people. I had a similar experience. The church was basically a big, white room with regular chairs and a stage. They had “hip” preachers and a Christian rock band. There was a projector that showed lyrics to the songs. Lots of people had their hands in the air and eyes closed. I was really open-minded in my approach to the place, reserving judgement on how scientifically valid everything was. I was simply there for the experience. I left feeling that it was a waste of time. I was glad to have had the experience, but I wouldn’t repeat it. It was quite clear to me that what most of the people got from being in church, I got from having friends who share my interests, such as sports and hobbies.
Comment by: troy.
16Hemant:
In re your intelligent design comment above, I thought you might find this interesting:
http://defythegray.blogspot.com/2005/12/intelligent-design.html
BTW: As a follower of Christ, I’d like to apologize for the behavior of Christians across America who, for some reason or another, believe it is their call to get intelligent design into the public school classroom, most of whom will do unbiblical things to get it there.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
17Troy
Thanks for your kindness and leadership
Comment by: David Buckham in St. Petersburg, Florida
18Hemant,
I’ve been to Willow a few times. Very attractive building. I appreciated your comments about the people of Willow thinking of everything and then mentioning the different needs that were being met (sign laguage, handicap, tv’s, cry room and so on).
Meeting needs is only half of the process of the church. Behind every need is a person. Willow Creek’s need based mentality fits the majority of our society, which is, I think, one of the reasons they are successful (if you look at numbers/size that is). I could be wrong. The major reason they are successful is, again I believe, Bill Hybels is a man of God who does seek to do God’s Will.
As I said meeting needs is only have the purpose of the church. Meeting the people behind the needs is the other half. From what you said I feel a church like Willow would meet your needs. What would it take to meet you as a person, an aethist, a free thinker? What would need to be done to get your wheels spinning, so to speak? How could someone reach you for Christ?
As for the building and parking lot, someone could definately get lost in Willow. I did for about 1/2 hour and then it took another 15min to find my wife and I’s car!
all about Christ,
David
Comment by: Sam
19Hi Hemant,
Congrats again on the good idea (I’m always a fan of eBay entrepeneurs). I have to take issue with your ID comments, though.
You said,
they’re rallying an army of millions of people who don’t know how science works against the precious minority who do. Frightening.
That makes me wonder if you have studied ID at all, since it is being driven forward by scientists on every level– http://www.discovery.org/csc/
If you haven’t studied ID, then I’m afraid the above comment puts you in the same kettle as Bill’s ignorant musings on the SSA, you know?
Comment by: Ryne
20Hi Hermant:
I found your observations from your experience at church very compelling. I am a Christian and I kind of find this whole “ID” thing interesting. The problem is I am not a scientist. I did read a book on the subject, “Darwin’s Black Box” by Michael Behe and I don’t think he is religious? And I think there are other scientists who share similiar views and they are not religious either. It seems like some of this ID theory stuff is being brought to light by the scientific community. Maybe the religious community is just jumping on the bandwagon? I am kind of enjoying the ride.
Thanks again,
ryne
Comment by: Fish and Bread
21I just wanted to make the quick observation that there are many Christians out there who believe in evolution (albeit evolution that’s part of the divine plan) including most Episcopalians and Roman Catholics, amongst others. Within the past year, I heard an Episcopalian priest give a sermon that in part touched on why he believed in evolution. So that’s one of the areas where there is some level of denominations difference. I personally would not be a Christian if I had to believe in creationism and the like.
Comment by: Alan
22Ryne, just a quick heads up - that book is written by one of the three Christians who thought the flajellum disproved evolution. Its commonly refuted with the ‘rat trap’ analogy whereby whilst a mouse trap won’t work without all its indervidual parts, and yet the hook makes a good coat hanger, the wood makes a good doorstop, and the spring makes suspension for a car.
You see, the flajellum is actually made up by just joining together a few different seperate devices in a cell such as part of the cells defence mechanism. As it happens, there is mountains of evidence for evolution and conclusive evidence disproving ID. But don’t take my word for it,get some arguments from your local fundermental Christians and bring them to http://www.sublime.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=855 where I will answer your questions for you.
[btw I probably won't check here again for replies]
Comment by: Rick
23The descriptions of church visits and the susbsequent discussions in comments section are quite streamlined and courteous. In spite of having people at polar opposite ends of belief spectrum involved in the dialogue, I find it comforting to know that each one respects other persons beiefs. Mutual respect will aid more understanding and let everyone arrive at a point of agreement after which everyone can agree to disagree without having any bitter feelings abou the other.
P.S: Please don’t make this into another discussion about Evo Vs. ID, cause it would shift the attention from sharing experiences to politics and status qou between science and religion.
Comment by: Meg
24Thank you Rick for the request to refrain from the Intelligent Design and Evolution debate! That’s for another place and another time. That’s not what the big picture is about anyways. No one can go back in time to find out the truth. It’s probably some blend of both in any event. One day we’ll find out in the next life, but it does no good to argue over it right here.
Hemant,
A good book to reference for questions about miracles and the like (i.e. Jesus raising the dead)is Lee Strobel’s “A Case for Christ” book. As a skeptic, he asks some of the hardest questions about Christianity, including the validity of the scriptures. Good luck Hemant. Keep an open mind and heart. If you are seeking, you won’t be disappointed.
Peace out.
Comment by: Siamang
25Lee Strobel a skeptic? Behe not religious?
I wish you could see how these assertions sound from the atheist side of the question. I’d look at your sources with a little more skepticism.
Stobel is the opposite thing from a skeptic. He is an apologist. He is doing what apologetics have done since religion began: attempting to answer the tough questions people ask about religion. Those parts where the Bible contradicts either itself or reality. He’s there to tell you that the places where it contradicts either aren’t a contradition at all, or they’re not important.
The questions are important. They’re very important for people who believe their souls hang in the balance.
The problem is, he doesn’t answer them. He answers them to his own satisfaction, which, to someone as credulous as him, is not to any level of rigor at all — philosophical, historical, scientific, archeological, psychological or spiritual.
The titles of his books should be “How Lee Strobel Convinced Himself of Why He Already Believes in Christ.”
Comment by: Meg
26What I meant was that he began as a skeptic and moved on from there. (I should have been more clear on that.) It looks at common questions. Some of the answers are good ones, some may need more explanation. I think it gives good perspective on some things. So he believes what he writes about. So what? Don’t authors believe what they write? Perhaps answering the questions to his own satisfaction is all he needed for faith. Maybe that’s all someone else needs too. Maybe it’s not. The point is to keep looking.
My apologies for any confusion or irritation.
Comment by: Siamang
27No need for apologies. You ask, “so what? Don’t authors believe what they write?”
My answer is, yes, but some authors are more tough on themselves and more challenging of their own beliefs and biases than others.
And myself as a reader, I’m not going to be persuaded by someone who’s lobbing softball questions and accepting easy, feel-good answers.
That’s not my definition of a skeptic. It’s my definition of a salesman.
Comment by: Siamang
28Oh, and by the way, I don’t think I’ve said this yet, and I really should.
I was very happy to find Off The Map here. What an amazing and inspirational approach to ministry. There is a great openness and charity of spirit evident in the whole approach.
I’m genuinely impressed. Keep up the good work.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
29Siaming
Thanks for taking time to notice what you find helpful about Off The Map. I’m not sure if we are a ministry or just a bunch of people who are trying to help Christians learn how to be normal.
I realize that some of my brothers and sister followers of Jesus find that statement about “being normal” - offensive and that is fine with me.
Until we major on getting the log out of our own eye AND telling everyone (inclduing those who will use the info against us)about our problems and inconsistencies then I think we have no business trying to get (our perception) of the splinter out of someone elses eye.
That is the spirit of the founder of our family business -Jesus
Comment by: Paul
30Heh Hemant, I just wondered how you feel about all these uninvited book suggestions? I guess people are genuinely trying to be helpful to you and each other on the other hand I’m not sure I remember reading you asking for some light reading, altho i could have missed it.
Would you recomend anything for me to read? What books are getting you excited and firing your synapses?
Thanks
Paul
Comment by: Bob
31Hemant,
You have encountered two ends of the spectrum. On one side the transcendent God who is so holy that you can only sit silently before him (Catholic) and the immanent God who is a really great friend you could sit and eat Oreos with (Willow). Both are correct–God is a god of paradoxes.
There are drawbacks to each side which I think you’ve seen. With the transcendent God, you can’t hope to understand Him so too many Catholics (not all by any means) sit and follow ritual by rote. Too bad, the Catholic mass–and most liturgy–is beautiful.
With the immanent God we become so familiar that we have no worries before him. People sipping lattes can get lax in their adherence to His call and will find getting out to your Lexus first a distinct advantage.
If you want another aspect you can find a charismatic, Pentecostal church to see the God presence and power. If you were struck by the lifting of hands while singing, I’d like to hear your impression of speaking in tongues and “falling out in the Spirit”. Another apsect of this multi-facted God.
Comment by: Peter Magelssen
32hermant…thanks man. this is good stuff. i think my favorite quote is how people treat the weekly meeting like a “sporting event”. i’m curious, did this disappoint you or just surprise you? thanks again.
Comment by: David B
33A great idea, good jopurnalism, and interesting responses from the religious and sceptical alike.
As someone from the UK I find the much of what I hear of religion in America alarming, but the media coverage is patchy, so it’s nice to get an account from a sceptic which seems so balanced.
David B
Comment by: David Cho
34Hemant,
I had to laugh when you mentioned seeing so many white people in one place. I remember feeling the same way attending this one particular mega-church called Calvary Church of Santa Ana (not to be confused with Calvary Chapel) here in Orange County California.
You had to drive through a heavily Hispanic area to get there to be greeted by a drastically different demographic. Instead of thinking of “the presence of God,” I thought of what you are describing.
11 o’clock Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America. I blogged about it here . Needless to say, there is plenty of blame to go around.
As to providing “answers” to Hermant, I agree with the site operator. Why not sit back and appreciate the unfolding of his observations? We may learn a thing or two. Christians get so eager to provide “answers” acting like thoughtless and brainless sermon machines which unfortunately fill our churches.
As erroneous as many perceptions tend to be, we still have to deal with them, and I cannot think of anything more useless than trying to change perceptions by spraying Bible bullets.
Comment by: John P
35Hemant,
You made the statement, “However, the whole idea that a church of this size would be promoting Intelligent Design and non-scientific theories about the Earth’s origins scares me. Because if they’re doing it, the other megachurches are doing it. And if they’re all doing it, they’re rallying an army of millions of people who don’t know how science works against the precious minority who do.”
Why do you think science has a better explanation to the origin of earth, or for that matter, the origin of “the first something” than a Christian would. Unfortunately, the apes didn’t leave a guide book with them when they became us. Science doesn’t understand so much of how we exist today let alone try to figure out what happened so long ago. We don’t even know what lies in the deep caverns of the ocean or what lies beyond our universe. Science was made up by man to measure what we don’t understand, and maybe the same thing could be said for organized religion. When science has answered every question that we can throw at science then we will all know the truth. Next time you look in mirror, as an atheist, remember that you are here as the result of slime plus time. Nothing does not equal something.
Comment by: Pam
36Hey Hemant,
I am very interested in your perspective and observations as you go on tour of different churches in your area. Followers of Christ have a lot that we can learn from you, I suspect, if we will listen.
I cracked up outloud when you wrote,
“I’m going to out-Jesufy you and put two hands up in the air as I sing for Jesus” gesture.”
“Jesusfy” is now officially a new word in my vocabulary.
Comment by: Hemant
37Paul– Some reading suggestions can be found on an Amazon.com ListMania list I created here. The Ancestor’s Tale (Richard Dawkins) is a personal favorite. And I don’t mind the book suggestions by other readers. I can’t read all of them immediately, but some people have offered to send me the books, and I have taken them up on the offer. I’ll get to them at some point soon, I hope.
Peter– The “sporting event” atmosphere didn’t disappoint me or delight me. I was just taken aback by it. Though I think if I went to church, it’d mostly be to hear the sermon, not necessarily the music– so I’m not surprised people left before the singing. (It was good. They missed out.)
John P.– I’d like to avoid the Evolution/ID argument as much as possible only because it’s beaten to death everywhere else. And me with a Bachelors degree can’t give you the crediblity of the Nobel Laureates who have already sided with Evolution in this matter. But the fact that you say “apes didn’t leave a guide book with them when they became us” explains that you’re not understanding what Evolution is, because no Evolutionary Biologist believes we came from apes.
Comment by: Edward T. Babinski
38Hi Hemant, I’m a former born-again inerrantist creationist Christian, now an agnostic. That makes me worse than an atheist in some people’s eyes, namely, an “apostate.” I edited Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists (a third of the testimonies in the book are from inerrantist creationist Christians who grew more moderate and/or liberal as their spiritual journeys progressed).
I have followed the resurgence in creationism and written about it at my website, along with listing Christian Evolutionist Resources for those who believe that Christians cannot be evolutionists nor Darwinists. I invite Christians to discuss the topic of creationism, I.D. and evolution with theistic evolutionist Chrisitans who are their brethren, whom they cannot blame for being “agnostics” nor “atheists.”
There are also former conservative Christians who left the fold after learning more about the Bible’s origin and contents. Some of them went from being conservative as undergrads in college to moderates, liberals, or even agnostics/atheists as they continued their post-graduate scholarly investigations. I could name for instance James D.G. Dunn, Howard Clark Kee, Dennis McDonald, Bart Ehrman, William Dever, Robert M. Price–all of whom can probably be found on the web and whose works can be obtained at amazon.com. I have also been told that a considerable number of scholarly members of the Jesus Seminar started out in their youth as born again and/or conservative Christians. In Leaving the Fold I also mention the career of one of the biggest Christian Evangelists in North America during the 1960s, who also was Billy Graham’s best friend, Charles Templeton, who became an agnostic.
In summation, I wish you well in your churchgoing experiences. I attended churches myself even after leaving the fold. And there are several huge mega-churches here in Greenville, S.C., one of which has broadcasts on a major network every Sunday night. Personally, I feel about today’s mega-churches the same way I felt when I first read about one of the earliest such mega-churches, Schuller’s “Cystal Cathedral. I think Jesus would be appalled if one of his followers said, “Hey, I’ve got a couple million dollars, I think I’ll use it to build a mega-church… or a theme park.” There Evangelical Christians who agree with my comment by the way. You can find them mentioned at The Wittenberg Door’s website, publisher of The Door magazine, or the publisher of Sojourner’s magazine, or the Ship of Fools website in Great Britain. Yes, there are socially minded Evangelicals who critique the way that many Christians are spending their time and money, and who also critique the cults of personality and also Christian evangelists and healers who take in more money than God (to use an expression) and live lives of extravagence and hero worship and brainwash thousands of sycophantic followers.
As I said, all the best,
Edward T. Babinski
P.S. Besides the website, my webmaster runs a blog that also includes comments by myself http://-8-ball.blogspot.com/
Comment by: Siamang
39Hemnant,
You may want to re-read your Richard Dawkins.
You said “no Evolutionary Biologist believes we came from apes.”
Umm…. EVERY evolutionary biologist believes we came from apes. Humans ARE apes, as were our ancestors for about the last 25 million years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apes
The Genii in the Family Hominidae, commonly called the great apes, are Pongo, Gorilla, Homo and Pan.
The Four great apes. Orangutan, Gorilla, Man and the Chimpanzee (and bonobos).
To JohnP, if you want to discuss you ideas about evolution, please discuss them with us here:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=66
There we can answer your questions about evolution in full, without sidetracking this forum, which is about Hemnant and his experiences.
Oh, and the apes did leave a history book that tells how they became human. It’s in every gene of your DNA. The entire history of your family tree, and it goes far further back than Adam.
I find it fascinating that Darwin never knew about DNA, which wouldn’t be discovered until a hundred years or so later. But DNA evidence has confirmed every fundamental piece of Darwin’s monumental discovery.
Come join us at iidb.org, JohnP, if you want to step into a much larger world.
Comment by: Siamang
40Clarifying my point to hemnant.
I think what you meant to say was that biology shows us that we are not descended from any non-human ape species alive today.
Our ancestors were not chimps, nor gorillas nor orangutans.
But our last common ancestor with the chimps, gorillas and orangs was most certainly an ape. As sure as the day is long.
Comment by: Paul
41Thanks very much Hemant, will check Richard Dawkins book out, one of the great benefits of a good public library system in the UK :)!
If I’ve got any thoughts/Qs on it is it ok if I come back to you? I would really appreciate being able to see throught your eyes and hear from your view point.
If you don’t mind good book recomendations then one book i’ve read recently which helped me explore my thoughts and questions on faith/god etc is Brian McLaren’s Finding Faith: A Self-Discovery Guide for Your Spiritual Quest http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310238382/sr=8-1/qid=1139751740/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-5667087-5652801?%5Fencoding=UTF8
Basically i found it an inteligent and non-patronising book that got me to think and explore for myself - and got to the heart of things for me which is can I an intigent rational person believe in God?
If you want to have my well thumbed copy you are more than welcome :)
Comment by: Leslie
42David wrote: What would it take to meet you as a person, an aethist, a free thinker? What would need to be done to get your wheels spinning, so to speak? How could someone reach you for Christ?
Why do Christians feel they have to convert non-Christians? Why can’t you just accept people as they are? Why do all church-goers/Islamists/fundamentalists need someone to tell them how to think/believe? I suppose they’re not self-confident enough to think for themselves.
A comment from me, a non-churchgoer: People who feel they have to use God or Jesus’s name in every thing they say or write make me uncomfortable, not because I don’t believe, but because I think they’re trying to influence me. I can think very well for myself, thankyouverymuch. That’s the way I was made (whether by “God” or otherwise is beyond me and I don’t need to have someone tell me I was “created by God”).
Peter wrote: my favorite quote is how people treat the weekly meeting like a “sporting event”.
My favorite way to spend a Sunday morning is by participating in a sport that allows me to spend time in nature enjoying everything around us. No preaching, and no noisy motorized-vehicles are involved. :-)
I’m also in agreement with David regarding mega-churches/cathedrals. Did Jesus need a big flashy cathedral? Did any of his disciples? Perhaps they’re the work of the devil, and their leaders are the devil’s instruments…
Finally, Rick wrote: Mutual respect will aid more understanding and let everyone arrive at a point of agreement after which everyone can agree to disagree without having any bitter feelings about the other.
AMEN!!!
Comment by: David
43Please also visit the Moody Church in Chicago.
And, I’ve never understood: how is it possible for a person finally to resolve intellectually “Atheism is the truth” without himself actually being God? Please share your insights at a convenient time. Thanks so much! Super day!!
Comment by: Siamang
44Not to respond for Hemnant, but being an atheist myself, let me respond to David’s question.
I don’t say “there is no god.” I honestly don’t know if there is a god, gods, goddesses, really powerful aliens or anything else we haven’t thought of.
A polytheist worships many gods. A monotheist worships one god. I worship zero gods.
The word “atheist” strictly doesn’t mean “god denyer” or “one who has looked in every atom of the universe and seen for a fact that there is no god.”
It merely means, to the atheist community, “one who doesn’t pray or otherwise worship any deities.”
The reasons why are manifold and every individual will give you their own personal answer.
Comment by: Stephan
45I’ll throw in my couple of pennies of several topics addressed here.
Evolution vs. ID - I think it takes more faith to believe we all happened by chance that to believe that there is a creator who designed all of it.
Book recommendation - I am currently reading “Finding God in the Questions” by Dr. Tim Johnson. Granted, he is coming at it from a Christian perspective, but it’s good stuff.
Why Christians want to “convert” everyone - We mean well, we really do. Sometimes we push too hard and we need to back off. We really want to see everyone in a positive relationship with God, and we believe that can only be done through Jesus. It’s not because we want to dominate everyone or stop them from thinking for themselves. It’s because we believe the Bible is true, not just for us but for everyone.
I’m looking forward to more input from Hemant. We Christians live in our own little worlds with our customs and slang, and it’s good for us to get some feedback from real people now and again.
Comment by: Siamang
46Stephan said “Evolution vs. ID - I think it takes more faith to believe we all happened by chance that to believe that there is a creator who designed all of it.”
Sorry, that phrase is a creationist canard. It tells me more about you and how you learned about evolution than it does about evolution itself.
Evolution doesn’t say that we happened by chance, by randomness or anything of the sort.
It says that it happened by a physical process, one that can be studied and proven.
Physical processes are not random. Boulders don’t randomly roll, they always roll the same way, downhill. Burn hydrogen in oxygen and you will always get water. You will never randomly get gold. Surviving generations of organisms which reproduce will always have their genes more strongly represented in the future gene pool than had they not survived to reproduce.
Physical, chemical and evolutionary processes are not random.
Evolution is life’s process of living, fighting, surviving and passing that survival to one’s offspring. It is not random. It is the furthest thing from random.
Whoever told you that evolution is a random process either doesn’t understand it, or is trying to decieve you.
Learn evolution from scientists who understand it, and you may see that it doesn’t require faith, only evidence.
Comment by: Stephan
47Siamang, physical processes can explain how characteristics get passed from one generation to the next, and how natural selection can strengthen a breed, but they cannot explain how life was formed to begin with. I can believe in evolution of species from one to another over long periods of time, but where did that first species come from? It either happened by chance or it was created by someone or something. Science cannot prove how life began any more than I can prove the existence of God.
Comment by: Siamang
48“Siamang, physical processes can explain how characteristics get passed from one generation to the next, and how natural selection can strengthen a breed, but they cannot explain how life was formed to begin with.”
That’s simply not true.
There is no chemical in the human body or any living thing, which is magical. There is no chemical reaction in your body which requires either Dr. Frankenstein’s lightning bolt, or any divine breath. Every chemical process in all of the wonders of life, works as soon as you mix the chemicals.
Every. Single. One.
The same chemicals which form our bodies, were around in the early earth, though not in the same arrangement. Biological chemical reactions are not governed by any different laws, nor do they get any special pleading by virtue of the fact that they occur in the body.
To say that chemical reactions happen by chance, or are random, you’d pretty much flunk high-school chemistry.
Chemicals react to each other in predictable ways. It’s not chance that crystals grow, and spread their structures as they grow. It’s a pattern that is determined by mathematics, geometry and chemistry.
The early earth was filled with chemicals that were sucessful at replicating themselves. The more sucessful, the more they replicated, and the more they pushed out or destroyed and incorporated their elements.
It’s called chemical selection, and it works just like natural selection.
Fascinating work going on by Jack Szostak at Harvard, to find a model of the first cell. He expects to be able to pour some chemicals in a jar of mud that was common in the prebiotic earth and get living, self replicating cells. It’ll happen some day, perhaps soon. Synthetic biology is a fascinating field.
If i were you, I’d get religion to start talking more about the PURPOSE of life. Because to say that Science cannot prove something that it’s on the verge of discovering, well, I wouldn’t take that bet.
Never bet against science when asking a question of biology or physics. Science got us to the moon. Science split the atom. Science wiped smallpox from the face of the earth. The priesthood, with all the power of prayer, for thousands of years of recorded history, could not cure the suffering, or answer the questions science can.
Until people through the power of prayer are able to plant a cross on the moon, I’m not going to listen to science lectures from a priest.
Comment by: Stephan
49Siamang, I believe we should take this discussion offline, but I want to pose a couple more questions. You say these chemicals were around at the beginning, and there are laws that dicate how those chemicals interact. How did those chemicals get there? How were the laws regarding their interactions established? Those are things science cannot answer.
That said, I agree that religion needs to start talking more about the purpose of life. I do not believe the ID should be taught in science classes, but in philosophy or religion classes.
If you want to correspond privately I could provide my personal email address.
Stephan
Comment by: Richard
50While it appears the discussion has gone to the “forbidden path” of EVOL VS. ID, I would like to say that I applaud you, Hemant, for your resolve in this matter. I can’t help but feel that all the world is on pins and needles, waiting for your next update. I found myself coming to work this morning, anxiously logging on to see “what happened THIS weekend?!”
Thanks for allowing so many people to see your motives and journey. You’re stellar.
Richard - Portland, OR
Comment by: Siamang
51I agree, we should take this offline. But I wouldn’t want either you or me to be stuck with the spam that having our private email addresses plunked down here would cause.
got any ideas?
Comment by: Stephan
52I get so much spam that a little more won’t hurt. To try to protect myself, I’ll encode it just a bit:
skfenton is the first part. Of course, the at sign comes after that. My ISP is comcast. Then there’s the ever-present dot. And finally, the net.
Is that obscure enough to foil the spammers?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Comment by: Siamang
53Thanks stephan.
Comment by: Bobtpa
54Hemant,
It is a interesting exercise to visit various churches, but perhaps you should go beyond the “worship services” and into what the people as followers of Christ are doing to show the love of Christ to the world.
The worship service is only one aspect of being a Christ follower. It is a corporate time for followers to get together to worship God (this is the traditional understanding). But that is a once a week thing. What about the other six days?
The other six days should show Christ followers helping the poor, feeding the hungry, teaching the undereducated, caring for the sick, visiting those in prison, etc. This is what Jesus told his followers to do. I would suggest you spend some time with these people.
The church is not that building you were impressed by, but it is people who follow the teaching of Christ and live out what he ask them to do. They are motivated because their hearts have been changed to love their neighbors as themselves, just as they love Christ and he loves them.
Bobtpa
Comment by: Jenn
55Stephan -
THANK YOU for acknowledging that ID has no place in science classes. I myself am agnostic and a firm believer in science and evolution, but my problem with the right-wing movement to weasle ID into the public school system has never been about ID itself, although I do not believe in it. My problem has always been that right-wingers are trying to have ID taught in science class. Any hypothesis, regardless of its subject, that requires a supernatural force of any kind is not science. Period. The very premise of science is that the manner in which the universe functions can be understood and empirically tested. ID is the way that followers of a particular religion - Christianity - view the origin of life. It is, in my personal opinion, the modern Christians’ creation myth (and I’m sure many Christians out there think the same about agnostics/atheists and evolution). As such, I would have absolutely no problem with my children learning about ID in a religion class. Of course, that would require religion being taught in public schools, and that’s just a whole different ball of wax.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
56Thanks to all ID, Creationists, evolutionists and anyone else who cares about that topic for being kind enough to take your wonderful conversation off line. The rest of us ordinary types are deeply appreciative
Comment by: Nick
57Hey Hemant,
I am a Christ Follower and don’t raise my hands regularly because that’s not the way I worship God. I believe each person has his or her own way to worship Him. I used to feel convicted that I should raise my hands because others were doing the same…even when most of the congregation was doing it. However, I see that would simply would have been for Vanity’s reasons (for others to see), rather than for God. I am definitely not the “happy, clappy” type when it comes to music…that’s just not my personality that God gave me. I had a friend that came home crying from a retreat because several Christians told her she wasn’t worshipping God because she wasn’t “happy, clappy” like them (these are my words). I don’t know what they were thinking…
One thing that bothers me at a lot of churches is that they emphasize music == worship, where the opportunity of worship is merely a subset of worship. I find myself worshipping and in awe of God doing many other things…outdoors, reading the Bible and other books, and even doing menial tasks.
Anywho, you’re a champ for keeping up with all these replies.
Peace.
Comment by: David
58Hemant,
I was a Christian for nearly 20 years, and spent much of that time trying to be a voice of reason in one of these mega churches. I am familiar with
Bill’s church in Chicago and it is influencing every mega evanglical church across the nation. The Vineyard Churches especially have been taking notes. Changing their directions in recent years, after one of their movement’s own, John Wimber from California, died back in 1994, there has been a staggering lack of objective reasoning and debate(which used to be the Vineyard experience when it was a fresh movement of young christians out of the 70’s Jesus movement).
Intelligent Design used to be a term in my old vineyard christian circles describing a group of equality, diversity and open mindedness. That went out the window when the entire movement gravitated back to a center more focused on their bible-believing fundamentals when fears of becoming too, “secular”, kept cropping up after years of experimenting with new approaches to expressing worship and spirituality, which many denominational churches by the 60’s had turned their backs on adopting more psychological practices and were receiving good science.
The Hybel’s as a family have shared their ideas and experiences to many in books, and conferences teaching their methods for church planting. IN my experience and opinion, Americans are taught from early education to “pass” not to earn or think for themselves, and these mega-model evanglical churches are good at creating an atmosphere of suspended reality where thinking is discouraged.
Being a christian in america is easy because often the pastor shares his “teacher’s notes”, and there isn’t a need to actually live the lifestyle of a christian, promoted by the apostle Paul. Jesus really didn’t create a church, but the marketing ideas and programs of this new movement instead of addressing actual suffering due to a poor educational system, and instead of creating compassion it succeeds in only creating a lack of empathy for anyone “Other”.
The lack of racial diversity, and unacceptance of spiritual pluralism is a huge problem in our society, and I am no longer “christian” mainly because of this “new” elitist culture of fascism found within these huge halls of ritualized numbskulls, many of which blindly vote for the political party for ‘pro-life’ without any regard to real poverty or postnatal care of actual human beings suffering under the weight of our times, and because it helps them feel ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’, they give money.
Evangelicals are responsible for the outrageous cartoon dipictions of a respected muslim icon, this is a far cry from the “prince of peace” which often is an idea fanned on the stages of these weekend cinemas. I applaud the blogs responding to your moves, and I wish you much success. Yes, you are on the right path.
Thinking, what a blessing!
David
Comment by: David Cho
59Hey from David to David
Thanks for the comment. I could have written that, although not as well. A lot of similar thoughts are expressed on my blog.
I am still a Christian desperately hanging on to my faith, so that is where we differ.
As to the pathology e forgoing thinking in vangelical mega churches, I couldn’t have put it better.
The mentality goes something like this (I will pick John MacArthur as a example since he was the first mega church teacher I was exposed to in my formative years). Since John MacArthur is a great teacher, and he has spent years in studying Scripture, I will just piggy back on him and blindly follow his teachings. If he is “wrong”, it is probably around 1 % of the time, which is much better than I can do on my own, so it is a risk that I will gladly take.
I see people in evangelical mega churches thinking like that. I thought that. No way I could do better than MacArthur, so why not gobble up everything he teaches and leave the thinking to him?
If this is not the fulfillment of “but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,” (II Tim 4:3), I don’t know what is.
Thanks David.
Comment by: tor
60Hemant,
Did you happen to notice if either of the cafeterias served vegetarian or vegan food? And if so, did you do any taste tests?
Comment by: Texan
61David,
I would like to know how you know that Evangelicals are responsible for the Muslim cartoons. There has been no mention in the media about religion other than Islam concerning the cartoons. The Danish newspaper is just that, a newspaper. Not an Evangelical organisation. In fact, much of that country is highly secularized like much of Europe, so where do you find Evangelicals drawing those cartoons? I have seen nothing on the wires about it and believe me, an accusation that strong would make the wires.
Comment by: David Buckham in St. Petersburg, Florida
62Leslie,
Comment 42. Here is MY answer to your question about what I said and “why Christians feel they need to convert nonChristians”.
At the risk of sounding churchy. Jesus said we need to reach the “nonChristians” or lost or missing or whatever you want to call those who don’t know him. Jesus, being the cornerstone of the faith ways heavely with the believers.
I agree completely that Christians should accept people for how/who they are. I believe that is what Jesus had in mind. Jesus accepted me the way I was. Jesus loved me so much he died for me even while I was lost and outside of him. That says something to me. But I also know that Jesus loves me so much that he doesn’t want me to continue to live the way I used to. Jesus died for me, the ball is now in my court. I can accept His death (for me) and then do something about my life (for Him) or I can ignore that death and leave my life the same.
In short, Christians want other people to be Christians for the same reason the NRA wants other people to join the NRA. (AND NO I DON’T BELONG TO THE NRA, NOR HAVE I EVER, THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!) NRA members want others to join the NRA because they believe in the NRA. Christians want other people to be Christians because of the sacrifice. You typically won’t understand that unless you understand committment.
If you would like to talk with me more about this my email address is right below, just click or catch me through my blog.
all about Christ,
David Buckham
PS THERE ARE A LOT OF DAVIDS ON THIS PAGE!
Comment by: Ellen
63I understand the attitudes of those who leave the mega churches. Many of the previous comments about such churches are insightful and in my opinion true. I wonder, however, why those who leave a church because they don’t agree with what is being done or said, don’t instead turn to the scripture for insight. How does that make those who leave any different from those who stay? In both cases, they have allowed others to dictate how they should live. In one case they have allowed it and follow it, and in the other they have decided that the mega-church’s way conveys the fullness of Christianity and walked away. Whether one is a Christ-follower in a church or an agnostic or athiest, the claims and prophecies of Scripture are worthy of consideration and study if one truly wants to understand what this thing is all about.
Hemant, Have you spent much time reading the claims of scripture? What have you thought of it? How do you think it does/doesn’t relate to what’s going on in the churches you have visited?
Comment by: David
64I’m the David of posting #43 (there ARE a lot of Davids here!). I wondered if Hemant has had an opportunity to visit the Moody Church–I’ve just heard so much about it, and thought your (Hemant) perspective would be honest and interesting. Please advise.
Siamang: thanks for your offering regarding atheism and being God. I suppose not everyone on the planet desires a life that is more consistent intellectually than it is inconsistent, but I’m one who does–that’s a life I could strongly consider making my own volitionally (some, I think I’ve heard, call this “not missing heaven by 18 inches–the distance from my head to my heart”). Do you have anything else?
David #43
Comment by: Siamang
65David # 43 wrote: “some, I think I’ve heard, call this “not missing heaven by 18 inches—the distance from my head to my heart”.
Thanks for the reply. Lol, that quote is a doozy. That’s the kind of quote that gives me the heebie-jeebies. It’s that kind of thinking that pushes a lot of atheists away from the church, I think.
Here’s what I hear when I read that quote: “Rich rewards await you after death for shutting off your brain today, trust me on this one.”
The word I’d use for that kind of “reasoning” is “head games” or less charitably, the “religious mind-****.” Because according to the story, it was knowledge that caused the downfall of Adam. Not sin. Knowledge.
That is the central mind-game of religion to me. It abhors individualist thinking.
It seems to me that if religion were true, they wouldn’t have to play games like that.
Sorry, folks here who are my friends. I’m trying to show my honest feelings here. I don’t mean to be this harsh, for I do love you as my fellows.
I know plenty of Christians who have a thirst for knowledge. And that’s a wonderful thing. But to me, one always has to test what one knows.
The two central questions to the furthering of knowledge and understanding are:
Why does that happen?
and
How do you know that it’s true?
The first question is only half of the work. The SECOND is crucial. The second question is the core of the scientific method. It keeps us from falling into superstition. It’s why we don’t believe rain is caused by rain dances.
Evaluating our own beliefs. “How do you know that?”
I can honestly say I don’t know anything about God. I know a lot about what other people think God is. But I have no certainty. And that’s okay for me. If God exists, He knows I seek Him in my own way. I’m a little tougher than some.
But I won’t suddenly pass a beautiful mountain or a rock and start praying to it. No false idols for me. Impossible.
So that must glorify the existant God in some way, refusing to bow to any man-made image until it proves its divinity.
Comment by: Westy
66In case you are interested, additional information on the service Hemant attended can be found here.
They have some messages available for download, but I do not believe the one from the week Hemant attended.
Comment by: Albert
67Hemant,
As someone who attended an evangelical church that was modelling itself after Willow Creek, but left after five years because after much research I no longer could buy into their theology, I can tell you that after a while the novelty of the contemporary service starts to wear thin. More and more it seems to become trite and superficial and you get the feeling it’s what happens when McDonalds and WalMart decide to go into the religion business.
Comment by: Ir
68Albert, if you’re attending a different church now, does your current church have a different statement of faith from the one modeled after Willow Creek? Or are the differences more to do with style of worship and how much the service is based on a desire to appeal to people who aren’t Christians?
Comment by: Albert
69My research pretty well caused me to abandon Christianity (http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2006/01/emperor-is-naked.html) for my story.
I still wonder “why there is something rather than nothing” and have come to the realization that nobody really knows. At this point in time it would likely take some pretty strong evidence to bring me “back into the fold” (any fold that is).
If Christianity were really true, then it shouldn’t have to accomodate itself like a twisted pretzel to the prevailing whims of the culture as the “seeker sensitive” churches do. Not that I think services should be in latin either though.
Comment by: Ir
70Thanks, Albert. I’m in a similar place to you except some Christians can and do assume bad experiences put me there, since they know I had some.
In fact the bad experiences were at most a catalyst; it was the re-evaluation of whether my beliefs were reasonable based on the evidence I had that got me where I am today.
Comment by: Stephan
71I just read an article this week on the danger of the church trying to be too “relevant”. Same thing you are saying, Albert, but written by a pastor. I think it can be a good thing, though, that there is variety. For some people a latin service may be the ticket. Others really need McChurch. As usual, I find myself somewhere in the middle.
Comment by: msnovember
72Hemant, I don’t understand why the “Job Connection” board bothered you, and especially I don’t understand why it seemed illegal to you.
To me it seems a normal function of a caring community, just as I have been known to pass along the resume of an unemployed friend to someone that might have an opening. Frankly, I wish that my church did it. I think I’ll suggest it.
Comment by: Ernest
73Tor, There are lots of vegetarian choices, esp. ovo-lacto. They have a baked potato bar, a salad bar, usually a cream-based soup, a pasta bar with one or two meatless sauces, a vegetable pizza slice on whole wheat crust, a cheese pizza slice, and usually a tuna fish sandwich. Nothing to rave about, but edible. The daily hot special, which always features meat, is more “gourmet”, and often looks quite tasty.
Comment by: Jim Lippard
74Unless you mean “tuno” sandwich, that’s not vegetarian…
Comment by: brett
75Hi Hermant,
You sound like a rational, philosophical guy. You might find philsopher and New Testament scholar William Lane Craig’s website intellectually stimulating (includes discussions on atheism and theism; life of Jesus; resurrection/miracles- history or fiction?). I’d be curious to know what you think. Take care:
Brett
William Lane Craig’s website:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/
Comment by: Ir
76Brett,
I’ve tried to read some stuff on WLC’s site but I found it virtually incomprehensible to me because of all the philosophy jargon he uses that I am unfamiliar with. Perhaps some articles on there have less of this than others.
Brett, did you know that there are atheist sites on the Internet with detailed rebuttals of the writings of the most well-known Christian apologists (including William Lane Craig, I think, although I haven’t checked lately)?
Many atheists have already read these and agreed with them. I think many Christians must be unaware of that.
Comment by: Chris
77I’m agnostic and my wife’s a deist, but she enjoys the community aspect of church. So for a while, I let her drag me to Willow Creek once or twice a year since we only live a couple miles away. You’re right in that it’s generally low-key and moderately interesting. This lasted up until the last time we went — she was pregnant with our first child and the theme of the service was about rededicating yourself to the church, and coming more and giving more and studying the bible more.
And that’s when we decided that we wouldn’t go back until our daughter was ready to go and understand what was going on and ask questions and talk about it on at least a basic level. Because no matter how soft the presentation most of the time, we want to present, not indoctrinate.
Comment by: Kari
78I’m wishing you would dialogue with God himself because he said he would be found by those who dilegently seek him. Although you could find him in one of those churches, it is best to seek him through prayer and by reading his word. (bible)
I know many prophetic words written in the bible are soon coming to pass, (with Jerusalem being at the center of the dispute) this is definately an ‘exciting’ time to be alive- that’s why we as christians want you to have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, because he said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me”
God bless you on your journey.
Kari
Comment by: TXatheist
79Kari,
We atheists wish that would happen to, that would be sufficient to change our minds:) God actually talk to us is what I’m referring to.
Comment by: Ir
80Good point, TXatheist! :)
Comment by: Ron
81Do you know what you are listening for? How will you recognize his voice?
Comment by: TXatheist
82Ron,
Please don’t patronize me. I was a xian once.
Comment by: Ir
83Ron,
(I’m not irritated - I’m just asking) If God isn’t able to get a person’s attention and then convince that person that it’s really him speaking to them, he’s not much of a God, is he?
If TXatheist hasn’t heard God, how do you know it’s TXatheist’s fault and not God’s fault? Shouldn’t the more powerful one bear the greater responsibility here?
Comment by: TXatheist
84Ir,
I’m more powerful as I exist. Sorry, blunt but true and I was a xian once so I completely understand his line of thinking.
Comment by: Ron
85Ir,
Perhaps I did patronize TXatheist and I shouldn’t have.
TX
I am sorry.
I would say this though, and it is not my quote but I don’t know who first said it. “A God comprehended is no God at all.” I know that some Christians don’t agree with me but to answer your question, I believe there has to be an element of choice in everything or else love is not love, faith is not faith. Once again these are my beliefs, but in this scenerio, I don’t believe the more powerful one should bear the greater responsibility. If God is perfect which we Christians believe he is, then he is unchanging (I won’t quote scripture). He can’t change who he is and I believe that is where his Holyness comes into play. We can and do change, therefore in this case the greater burden is on us. Just my thoughts.
Comment by: Susan
86Hermant,
WOW, This is wonderful to get this kind of feedback! I attend two or more churches a week and have been tagged a Jesus Junkie. I have wanted input as to how not to insult those with different belief systems and you are providing that and more. I hope that the Christian community can employ you full time to continue to give us feedback that is not mean spirited and judgmental.
May your journey be fruitful and fun!
Susan
Comment by: Kari
87TXatheist,
What made you turn away from the faith?
Kari
Comment by: TXatheist
88I investigated it. I say that politely but from a skeptical viewpoint Christianity and Mithraism/Zorasterism and the 1000’s of prior religions all fell into one basic category, mythology. That’s why I appreciate the work of Joseph Campbell. It’s really a long story but that’s it in a paragraph.
Comment by: Kari
89I’m grieved you view Jesus as a myth. He came in flesh and dwelt among us. This is a very volatile time to be on shaky ground with God. I pray he will make himself known to you in the days ahead. I say this because I am concerned for you.
Comment by: Chris
90The Buddha “walked among us” too, as did Zoroaster. What’s so intrinsically different about Jesus? All have books that, taken as a closed system of logic, prove their own point. Mohammed “walked among us” and the Qur’an specifically contradicts important tenets of Christianity.
There are thousands of religions. They can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
Comment by: Siamang
91Kari,
Please read around this site, and learn what there is to know here.
“I’ll pray for you,” and “these are volatile times to be on shaky grounds with God” sound like threats to the non-christian ear. Your other posts seem to imply that you think these are the end times. If you are a Christian, then you believe that God has it all in hand. Let it happen in His own good time, He doesn’t need you issuing His ultimatums.
Atheists aren’t on shaky ground with anyone. Really. We just see things differently. Step away for a moment from trying to prove you’re right, and just listen for awhile, to the other christians here and to the atheists.
You may come to believe that there is a purpose for you here other than fixing people. I have hope here that this dialogue will help all of us understand each other better.
Comment by: Ir
92Kari,
I don’t think any atheist here would say the following to you, but - hypothetically - how would you respond if they did?
“Kari, I’m grieved that you seem to have lost your grip on reality - you think the ground is shaking when it isn’t. You regularly ‘talk’ to a person that doesn’t exist and if confronted about it you insist that he does.
I’m hoping you’ll go see a good psychiatrist who will prescribe something for you. These days there are some very effective anti-hallucinatory medications that could resolve your difficulty with distinguishing between what is real and what isn’t.
I say this because I’m concerned for you.”
Would you think “Wow - that atheist is right! I’m going to call a psychiatrist right now to set up an appointment!”
I’m guessing that wouldn’t be your response at all.
If I’m right that you wouldn’t respond by agreeing with the view expressed and going to ‘get help’, do you think it’s likely that TXatheist will agree with your words and rush off to ‘get right with God’ before the ground completely subsides beneath his feet? I don’t.
Comment by: Gail
93Hemant,
I am so sorry that our churches don’t have any more to offer you than we do. It is God you are looking for and we do a very poor job of representing him. Please forgive us and look past our mistakes and seek Him for yourself.
Gail
Comment by: Kari
94Tough crowd
Comment by: Ir
95Kari, I was just trying to help you think about what it’s like to be on the receiving end of well-meant comments that don’t fit with one’s own perception of how things are.
I deliberately used strong language because I wanted to make you think. I’m sorry if I offended you by doing so.
Comment by: Ir
96Actually, this crowd is not tough at all compared to what I’ve observed on an atheist discussion sites. Almost everyone here who is not a Christian is being civil and respectful and not mocking Christian beliefs.
Comment by: Confused
97Siamang,
I definitely wish I could view the world through your eyes. You seem so passionate about your beliefs, and want to convince the Christians here that your views are correct by referring to books, websites, scientists, etc. However, you tell the Christians they are wrong for doing the same thing. They try to convince people of their beliefs and you comment back with an essay on how they are wrong. The only way to be respected for your “rights” or “beliefs” is to respect other peoples “rights” and “beliefs”
Hemant,
I am sorry that people are being so childish as to fight over their own views and distracting from the purpose of this site. I think it is very interesting what you are doing. I just wonder what your purpose is in what you are doing. I read all the info about why you agreed to this, but this isn’t what you initially agreed to do on ebay. I just wonder if you have been disappointed in this since you said that you felt you had been missing something and thought maybe this would be the way to find it. Just curious.
Comment by: TXatheist
98Kari,
We aren’t so much tough as honest. I think I said it pretty friendly and not condesending or derogatory. I was straight with you. http://www.thegodmovie.com concerning the existance of Jesus or jesuspuzzle.com but as far as praying. I know you meant well but tomorrow when I wake up still an atheist we’ll both know why. Prayer doesn’t work and there is no god. I don’t demand you agree with that but that’s my view and it’s here to stay:)
Comment by: TXatheist
99Confused,
I am not telling you or any other christian you are wrong. I am telling my side/view and it sounds like most of them are open to listening. There is a difference and it is big here. Having a belief is one thing. Saying something is true is another. That is how ID is trying to make it’s way into science classes. There is a difference between saying this is my belief in UFO’s and I have personally seen and flown in a UFO. I can’t speak for Hemant but I’m glad it’s gotten to this. It is my opinion that xians are hearing/meeting atheists for the first time and that open communication is priceless.
Comment by: Florence
100I’m looking forward to Hemant’s next church visit. Can’t wait to hear his comments! I find them extremely interesting and Hemant himself (yourself, Hemant, when you read this) most personable and amazingly open. I have enjoyed your essays very much.
About the above debate, I didn’t see anyone mention the “anthropic principle.” I’m surprised…. It adds a certain weight to a somewhat more generic “intelligent design” argument than the one currently in the news. Along that line, I have heard it said the universe was created by Someone with a very mathematical mind. To put it another way, isn’t it a bit surprising that something so darned physical should be subject to such fruitful analysis by something so darned mental (mathematics)? But enough! Except please note that a generic intelligent design theory would not automatically say as a corollary that there was no such thing as evolution in the development of life on this planet. :)
But back to the question (”why?”) I seem to hear in Hemant’s comment about the ID idea in the church: Let me introduce a little background.
1. Protestant Christianity is in some sense founded on the idea that people can and should read the Bible and, to a large extent, at least, interpret it for themselves. It is also founded on the idea that in some real sense God was behind what was written there. In fact, Christian “fundamentalists” basically say that a part of the “faith” that God requires is to believe what the Bible says, as simply and as close to word for word as possible.
2. In this country perhaps more than in other nations with a Christian history (e.g., England), there was at around the beginning of the last century a Christian “fundamentalist” reaction to a then emerging rationalist materialist atheism that tended to dispense with the ideas inhering in basic, Biblical Christianity on the basis of what I might call a kind of Darwinist scientism. In other words, the Christian fundamentalists were very much on the defensive against the emerging modernist philosophies that loudly used Darwinist ideas to say to believers something on the order of “y’all don’t know nuthin’!” And, in this country, fundamentalism has deeply influenced broader “evangelical” Christian thought. (On the other hand, there seem to be more materialists among biological scientists than cosmologists, or so I hear. Perhaps the evolutionists have their own fundamentalism….)
Now: the present translations into English of Genesis 1 speak in terms of the “days” in creation. (I understand the Hebrew term is actually more nebulous and undefined; that, in fact, it could be translated “period of time.”) But when you give people the opportunity to read the Bible for themselves, and suggest they should believe it as they believed anything their parents said when they were five or six years old, this is the kind of literalism you come up with. That’s kind of a fact of life. (Sigh.)
Thus, many Christians in this country embrace the form of ID you have been hearing about in the news…. I personally am sorry about this. I like nuances, layers, buts and ands, except in those places where simple trust is truly a requirement. And there are those places. But that for another blog. :)
Florence
Comment by: Florence
101(Sigh.) My brother, who keeps track of the debate better than I do, points out that the present Intelligent Design program is really directed against the teaching of evolution in the public schools and not to theories about the age of the universe. That makes my discussion of the translation of “day” in Genesis 1 irrelevant, although my main point remains. Apologies…..
Comment by: S
102I’ve actually really appreciated Siamang’s posts for being very informed and intelligent. And I disagree with Confused’s assessment of what he is doing. He’s just presenting his argument as to why he believes what he believes. Everyone has the right to do that. What he addressed in his response to Kari wasn’t her stating her beliefs, but all the extra “padding” that was in there (about praying for him and shaky ground and such) that showed she wasn’t approaching the subject with an open mind. This is why atheists dislike trying to be “converted” - the ones doing the converting approaching it as if they are all-knowing and trying to “inform” us. No one can know everything, that’s why sites like this that promote discussion are so important!
Comment by: Ir
103Confused, I think you have misconstrued where Siamang’s coming from. He’s one of the most respectful atheists I’ve encountered in any Internet discussions between atheists and Christians.
Why wouldn’t he present books, websites, etc which support his non-belief in God? Why wouldn’t anyone provide the support they have for their views?
Why do you feel you need to apologize to Hemant for what other people have posted? That seems really strange to me. Why not let Hemant tell them if he doesn’t like the way their discussions are going and let them apologize if they think an apology is in order?
A few Christians have said something along these lines; with all due respect I think you may have misinterpreted what Hemant said. I heard him say he was open to changing his view, not that he was looking to change it or that he sensed anything is missing from his current view.
Comment by: TXatheist
104Hi April,
What are you talking about? It is my analysis/opinion after reading this blog for awhile that once theists become aware of what atheists are really about they generally accept them and just agree to disagree on religious views. To me that’s just plain marvelous.
Comment by: Ir
105Hi TXatheist,
Which post were you responding to?
Comment by: TXatheist
106What the? That is the second time that someone has posted a unnecessary comment and when I try to expound on it and turn it into a positive view the original comment is deleted. Next time I’m quoting their comment and then elaborating.:)
Comment by: Ir
107Good idea, TXatheist.
Maybe you replied to a post that was from ‘fran’ but posted under another name. I’ve noticed that his posts are being deleted now - presumably because they are not aimed at achieving anything constructive and they might confuse new people into thinking that there’s a hostile crowd here.
Comment by: TXatheist
108Ir,
Concerning fran the atheist. It is my opinion that Fran is just straight forward. He isn’t really trying to get a rise out of people. He just tells it like it is. I personally think he may actually be in a community that is like that. I know a Canadian and they find our mixing of politics and religion unbelievable. In atheists circles I can definitely say there is at least one guy who is as direct as we perceive Fran to be. The book I’m reading by Sam Harris says that is the USA problem, we dare not insult religion and that is why it is so prevelant.
Comment by: Ir
109Actually, he wrote a post late last week about himself in which he said that he doesn’t get to say the things he says here in real life, which is why he ‘explodes’ here.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that an atheist who posted the same essential view as fran, but in a slightly different way, and with more interest in having constructive two-way dialog, would find his/her posts deleted.
Comment by: Ir
110I prefer people to state their case without insults. However, if atheists find they can’t even do that because they are in a minority in this country, I think that’s unfortunate.
Comment by: TXatheist
111Ir,
I think it depends on how we define insult. Fran didn’t insult me with his language but may have insulted others.
Comment by: Ir
112I think that’s a very good point, TXatheist.
Do you personally feel constrained here not to speak your mind because of how others might react? I’m just curious.
Comment by: skikid
113Ir
I know that in many venues I tend to censor myself… a lot of the time b/c I feel like my beliefs might be construed as “wrong”. Its definitely easier from me here b/c I don’t see any of you in my daily life… if I did … hmmm… I doubt if I’d post at all.
Comment by: Kari
114I think the person above misconstrued my intent. It wasn’t a threat, it is a ’sound the alarm’ (OT term used in the bible.) I am aware that on this site I would receive some ridicule. But I had to say something. If I didn’t care I wouldn’t say a thing. Most people who care primarily for themselves would say ‘live and let live’. Carry on-I just wanted to clear up that one point.
Comment by: TXatheist
115Ir,
YES!
Kari,
Several people commented including me. I also don’t see the riducule but I do see alternate viewpoints.
Comment by: Ir
116Why? What might have happened, that won’t now happen, if you hadn’t said something?
You said you had tosay something. That sounds like it’s about you, not other people.
With all due respect, I think that if you really cared, you’d stick around until you understood better where the people who responded to you are coming from.
If you don’t care to do that, how much do you really care?
Comment by: Stephan
117Kari, my impression of Hemant, Ir, TXathiest and others on this site is that they are sincerely interested in finding truth, and at this point they don’t believe the Bible contains it. If you understand and accept that fact, and listen to why they believe what they believe, you may actually get them to listen to what you say. It started working for me until this forum got out of hand.
Comment by: Ir
118Stephan, I’m still listening to what you have to say. But I understand if you have reasons not to post as much as you were when there were fewer posters here.
Comment by: Ir
119Well…I suppose that means you are being constrained because you’re hoping there will be benefits to it that outweigh the downside. I hope that turns out to be true.
I hope I have not personally come across as a person who needs to be tiptoed around, as it were. (Overall)
Comment by: Kari
120Stephan,
Go ahead in your discussion, I wanted to clear up that point and said what I wanted to, and I don’t want to interrupt what progress you guys have made.
Peace.
Comment by: TXatheist
121Stephan,
You said you weren’t coming back. You missed me too much, huh? I still think we can find middle ground between atheists and theists and your input is always welcomed.
Ir,
I tiptoe out of respect but Fran speaks like I think.
Comment by: Ir
122TXatheist, thanks for being respectful.
Kari, give us a chance. We’re real people trying to be real with one another. Stay and be real with us.
Comment by: Susan
123I guess I am behind on the news. I just found out about Hermant’s journey. I think this is a great way for a person that has no belief one way or the other about the different religions to open others eyes to what is going on in our churches.
As a christian that grew up in a Southern Baptist church that is all i know. I have always read my Bible and tried to understand it, the hardest thing was back then there was only the KJV. Now we have the easier to understand versions. When I get down reading it lifts me up, speakes to me in my heart, shows me that there is a God that loves me even though I am not worthy. I know that statement will bring comments, that is fine, I am just stating how I feel.
What I like about Hermant’s journey is it is opening my eyes to other churches and his view of them.
Our pastor has always said that we need to remember that their are people who are looking for answers, and if they are looking we need to respect their views and answer their questions without using the “churchy terms”. Everyone knows what they are and alot of them can scare anyone who doesn’t know what they mean.
Hermant I look forward to reading more of your posts and see what your perceptions are.
I have thought alot about what you have posted adn I do see a few things about our church in your views, but am glad to say that they are very small. I wish you could come south and visit some of the churches here and hear a good heart stirring sermon. The best thing I can pray for for you on your journey is that you find a pastor in a church that will teach from the Bible every Sunday. When you find that pastor stick with it and you will get answers.
Good Luck My Friend
Comment by: Kari
124I want to be respectful of your ongoing conversation, what Stephan said was valid. If you guys are making progress, I want to respect that. I don’t want to steer your dialogue away from the original intent. Maybe I can add my 2 cents if I feel it will add to the conversation.
Comment by: TXatheist
125Susan,
Here’s a comment:welcome and I accept you find comfort in God and the bible. Hemant may never find a pastor that uses the bible and atheism may stick with him. That may happen and we all hope to learn from him on this journey.
Comment by: Ir
126Kari, thanks for sticking around. I know I’ve given you a hard time and I’m not sure it was entirely fair of me.
Comment by: Stephan
127Kari, keep it up, but open your mind, too. I have learned a lot from Ir, Siamang and TXathiest. These are intelligent people who have clearly thought a lot about what they believe. I have come to a different conclusion than they have, but I think we are all on a similar path, searching for truth, and have interpretted the data differently.
Comment by: Cindy
128hey Hemant. your story is very interesting, its pretty cool that you took an interest in researching the church, i was wondering if you had read “the case for christ” its a very interesting book that looks at christianity from the outside (historicaly and scientificly) and doesnt “push” christianity on you. you might find it not only helpful but interesting as well. you also mentioned that you have enjoyed the music you’ve been listening to at these services. you might want to check out david crowder or even matt redman.
well good luck, and enjoy your journey.
Comment by: Ir
129Cindy thanks for your comment - I reposted it here:
Cindy Recommends “The Case For Christ”
Comment by: Friendly Atheist » Willow Creek
130 10/19/06 5:58 PM | Comment Link |[...] I had visited the church during the initial eBay visits, written about it, and the people there wanted me to talk about my experience visiting churches, what I learned, and what advice I would give to Christians listening to this message. They were going to air this video during a conference for church small group leaders. [...]
Comment by: Kathleen Johnson
131Hement, I just read about you in our church newsletter! I go to a mega church in Arizona. Their website is http://www.ccvonline.com if you want to check it out. My husband and I are in our 60’s and both came to Christ as adults (me at 35, he at 45). I just had a couple of comments about your experience at Willow Creek. When we raise our hands and/or close our eyes, it is because to us the songs are about worship to the Lord. I personally raise my hands to Him when I want to honor Him. I close my eyes to shut out the distractions. It has nothing to do with anyone else. I suppose some people do it because they think they should, altho in our church, I think most people don’t do it. Maybe 30% do. Our church has attendance each Sunday of around 10,000 people. Our preacher is a guy about 60 and he has built this church on a firm foundation of Biblical preaching. My husband and I weren’t used to this large a church when we first came here but we found that by joining a small group that meets weekly and by volunteering to do Communion prep each week, we are building a community feel into the large church experience.
Ultimately, once you become a believer in Jesus Christ and trust Him as your Savior and Lord, it is that relationship you want to build on and the best way to do that is make sure you attend a Bible preaching church and read your Bible for yourself. He will reveal Himself to true seekers.
Oh, I also notice each week that as soon as the sermon is over some people get up and leave to avoid the traffic. I think it is rude and very disrespectful but there are those types everywhere and maybe they are in a different place on the path to becoming more like Christ.
May God and the Lord Jesus bless you in your seeking. Kathleen Johnson
Comment by: Derek
132I’m very impressed with your logical take on life, the universe and everything. Have you heard of Pascal’s wager? It is an argument for God based on logic alone (no Biblical reference).
Here are a couple quotes you may find interesting:
“If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).” Blaise Pascal
“If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is … you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that He is.” Blaise Pascal
Light and Grace,
D~
Comment by: Siamang
133Derek,
Welcome! Please join us on the discussion board!
We’ve heard of Pascal’s wager. It’s mathematically presupposed on only two possible outcomes, either a very specific Christian God who rewards loyalty over all other qualities, or no God.
But if God can see through self-serving odds-players, then Pascal can’t save you.
Or if Allah exists, and punishes Christians, then Pascal can’t save you.
Or if multiple Gods exist, and you picked a minor God, Pascal can’t save you.
Or if a Schoolmaster God exists who punishes all those who choose their path by copying others, Pascal can’t save you.
Or if God choses whom he saves by who is the most intellectually honest, Pascal can’t save you.
Or if God choses whom he saves by love and good deeds, Pascal can’t save you.
Or if God doesn’t exist, but you spend the entireity of your life reading ancient texts.
Or if God doesn’t exist, but you spend your life doing others harm in His name.
Or if God does exist, but you spend your life doing others harm in His name.
Pascal’s wager is sadly made of tissue paper when critically inspected.
You say that Pascal’s Wager is an argument for God based on logic alone, and no Biblical reference.
But can you prove any of my alternate Gods wrong by logic alone without biblical reference?
If you cannot, then Pascal’s wager fails to stand on its own logic.
Comment by: Mike O
134Ah, Siamang … you’ve been practicing.
Comment by: Friendly Atheist » Only in Amsterdam…
135 12/1/07 9:47 PM | Comment Link |[...] I don’t remember seeing that type of store when I visited Willow Creek… [...]
Comment by: What we can learn about worship from “I Sold My Soul on Ebay” | Worship Rising: worship, media, and leadership in the new and multi-site church
136 01/18/08 4:15 PM | Comment Link |[...] experiences could be taken as “buffer”–Mehta observed people coming in late and leaving early after the message (it seems that universally, the message ends up in the center or second half of our worship [...]
Comment by: Авиалегкобыстрый автомобиль
137Автор молодец! Тема почти раскрыта. Приглашаю почитать мою статью о авиалегкобыстром автомобиле будущего
Comment by: Головомозгий дешифратор
138Супер статья! Подписался на RSS, буду следить =)
Comment by: insurance young driver
139Хороший рассказ, все разложено по полкам