Persuasion and Predictions

Semi-Related Posts

• Listening as Conversation
• Evidence

29 Responses to "Persuasion and Predictions"

• Comment by: Siamang

  1 02/13/06 12:33 PM | Comment Link |

  What Are Other Atheists Doing Here?

  Jim did a good job in this post and others outlining why Off The Map comissioned Hemnant to take this journey. Not for conversion of Hemnant, but for information about how Christians can better reach the people he calls “The Lost” or “the people Jesus misses most.”

  I hope I’m not being presumptuous when I take that to understand that he intends a dialogue between Hemnant and members of Off The Map, not as a conversion dialogue, but as a “how do you see us?” dialogue.

  Which brings me to my question above, what are other atheists doing here?

  Specifically, me. I’m not going to churches, like Hemnant. I actually probably have more fully formed predjudices or at least semi-ossified impressions of what church means to me!

  I don’t think I provide that kind of value to the Off The Map ministry.

  Why am I here? I was intrigued by the story, and decided to follow what I read to Off The Map. I’ve been posting here, trying to maintain a polite presense, and interjecting my thoughts at various times. I don’t expect to “de-convert” anyone, and I don’t come guns-blazing to do that.

  I only hope to dispel what I see as myths about atheists (no, we don’t eat kittens! ;-) ).

  But I understand that THAT is not the mission of Off the Map, nor their “Ebay Atheist Project.”

  So I’ll try to be polite and respectful, and recognize that I am a guest here. Using bandwidth to point out my point of view, but hopefully not get in the way of Hemnant and the work he’s doing for the Christians here.

  They are the ones on this “journey Off the Map.” I recognize that I am not.

• Comment by: Stephan

  2 02/13/06 2:14 PM | Comment Link |

  Siamang, for the record, kittens taste like chicken. Thanks for putting up with us presumptuous Christians. You are a credit to athiests. I doubt that anyone will be converted here, one way or the other, but if we can all learn to understand each other’s point of view a little better we can help bring some little peace to this world that needs it so much.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  3 02/13/06 10:01 PM | Comment Link |

  Siamang

  You are right on in your understanding of our motives when you write… (btw you are a very lucid writer)

  “I hope I’m not being presumptuous when I take that to understand that he intends a dialogue between Hemnant and members of Off The Map, not as a conversion dialogue, but as a “how do you see us?” dialogue.

  BTW- What would an atheistic equivalent of this look like and do you think atheists would even care about hosting this kind of dialog?

• Comment by: Paul

  4 02/14/06 6:01 AM | Comment Link |

  Siamang, what are any of us doing here, if not to do what you are so wonderfully doing and letting us interact, share webspace together and giving me pause to think and reflect on your thoughts on the thoughts expressed in these postings!

  It would be a lot drearier and pooer place if it were not for brave people like you who are prepared to come into places like this and put forward your thoughts in such a lucid and well intentioned way.

  I respect you for having the courage to cross the boundaries in person rather than just throw rocks over the fence and like Christians are percieved in different places from different view points to which I for one and rarely exposed too! Please do continue to challenge my views of atheists as well, this place needs to interact with people like you and humbly so do I

• Comment by: Paul

  5 02/14/06 6:06 AM | Comment Link |

  Grin, can I beg too Jim? But then that is the beauty of an open mike, if I can see from someother perspective how the sort of things that trip off my tongue so easily with so little thought ACTUALLY sound to other folk and that AWARENESS leads to me being a better listener, questioner, reflector, valuer and ultimately lover than heh this all project and site will be of immense value!

  I might groan inwardly when I read some people’s posts - my wife has suffered with depression before and that was not a happy experience for me or her - on the other hand I am sure people like Hemant, Siamsung, even you Jim not too mention the other contributers who have logged on here must often do the same with mine!

  Apologies for all the howlers, gaffs and goofy statements I’ve made!!

• Comment by: Siamang

  6 02/14/06 10:31 AM | Comment Link |

  Jim wrote:
  “BTW- What would an atheistic equivalent of this look like and do you think atheists would even care about hosting this kind of dialog?”

  That’s a fascinating question. As I say, I appreciate the openness of spirit I see here.

  But from my point of view, that seems like an odd question.

  From my experience, it is believers, and in this specific instance, Christians, who do not understand atheists.

  In American society at least, over three-quarters of Americans identify themselves as Christian. In a 2002 poll only 10% described themselves as “neither spiritual or religious.”

  So, just based on straight numbers, most atheists were probably raised in a Christian home, and according to my online anecdotal understanding most were Christians in a church, in a christian family and in a fellowship with other christians before deconverting.

  After deconverting, many have been shunned by their church, their community, their fellowship, their family. The stories they share are heart-rending.

  My story has me being raised in a non-denominational Christian home, with the beliefs that Jesus is the incarnation of God, and we’d read the bible sometimes, but not really go to church often. I had a period where I’d call myself Born Again as a young man in junior high school.

  (I’ll save the rest of my story for another time.)

  My parents are now church-centered Methodists, who go to church or fellowship 3 or 4 times a week, and I’ve gone to church multiple times with them. A number of my good and close friends belong to various denominations of Christianity.

  As far as from a personal standpoint, “do atheists need to build a dialogue for understanding Christians?” I would say that most atheists WERE Christians. Most atheists have Christian parents, Christian wives, Christian Husbands, Christian children, brothers and sisters.

  Christians, in American society are very visible. They wear the cross, they go to the church, they carry the bible, they sing loudly and proudly. They witness on the streetcorner, they lead the nation in prayer. They ask for God’s blessing during the State of the Union, and they ring the church bells to echo through the land.

  Atheists are invisible. We do not fellowship with others of our belief. We have no church. Our slogan is not printed on the money. We don’t even have a slogan! (How sad is that?!!) We don’t have a symbol, or a T-shirt, or our own cartoon show for kids starring talking vegetables. We don’t even get our own differently-shaped tombstone when we die, so you can’t even count us that way.

  The most famous out and proud Christian living today is the President of the United States.

  I think the most famous out and proud atheist is probably Penn Jillette (the professional magican).

  So the question, to me, of “these atheists don’t really have an opportunity to come to understand Christians, maybe a special place for that dialogue should exist,” sounds very strange from my point of view. WHERE is it that I have been hiding that I haven’t heard from an “out and proud” Christian?

  Contrast that with the fact that about half the atheists I know aren’t out in their daily lives. Some haven’t even told the spouse!

  There are websites, however, where a christian/atheist dialogue takes place. Infidels.org has a great one. The magician James Randi has another (what IS IT with these magicians?!!). The forum at infidels.org has christian moderators, so they make sure that things don’t get out of hand, and the christians don’t get treated rudely. There is a great camraderie there, and a refreshing honesty as well as a welcoming nature. If there is an open place for this dialogue, it is there.

  But christians rarely venture there, except to preach and convert. Many, many of them last about a week or two, cutting and pasting bible versus and then moving on.

  Atheists who venture to christian bulletin boards often have to mask their beliefs so they aren’t insta-banned. (Luckily many are former christians, so they can quote the bible with the best of them. ) But if they even mention the “A-word,” their motives are questioned, they are looked upon as an attack from Satan, they have their threads locked and their accounts deleted.

  Some are more open than that, of course. But not many.

  Until now, I have not ventured onto a “christian board.” I felt like it would be disrespectful for me to do so, for I had no reason other than hubris. “I know better than you do” is not sufficient for me to intrude on the fellowship of others. I would feel like I was an unwelcome “troll” (internet speak for someone who just wants to start arguments).

  As far as the understanding goes, there is a lack of dialogue, and that lack of dialogue is certainly two-way. But I really think that if the athests haven’t been speaking to churchgoers, it’s generally out of courtesy.

  Most atheists I know aren’t out to deconvert anyone. We just want to live in peace (and keep our government out of the religion business).

  Your thoughts?

• Comment by: darci

  7 02/14/06 10:45 AM | Comment Link |

  It is interesting to notice how we, as Christians, have a hard time just listening to someone and not trying to move them towards what we believe, whether overtly or covertly. I think we have been taught and have practiced listening just long enough to be polite (some of us don’t even do that) then we suggest, point out, instruct, ‘encourage’, explain, coerce– the truth as we see it. I like that Jim is pointing out that we are not trying to convert Hemant, rather, we are going to listen to what he has to say about what he sees in us. What an opportunity to practice listening (and really hear).

• Comment by: darci

  8 02/14/06 11:17 AM | Comment Link |

  Siamang,
  I just read your post, after submitting mine, and I want to say thanks for your openness. I realize that I look at things through my lens, and have not really considered what and how an athiest sees or what they experience. Again thanks.

• Comment by: Siamang

  9 02/14/06 11:35 AM | Comment Link |

  Thanks darci.

  Yeah, what a long-winded post I had!

  Shorter version: When a christian becomes an atheist, they often get kicked out of their parents home, kicked out of their church, kicked out of their community of fellowship.

  They understand Christians. They understand christianity. For them, the understanding doesn’t go the other direction.

  Thankfully that’s not me and my life. But even though I’m almost 40, I still don’t go around talking about my atheism in front of my parents. I’ll go to their church with them, and be polite while they talk about Christ and the Bible. But I never once quoted them Bertrand Russell or Richard Dawkins.

  It says a lot, I think. Atheists are often silent by choice. I’ve been on their side of the fence. I don’t expect them to want to understand mine, or they would have asked.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  10 02/14/06 12:46 PM | Comment Link |

  Do all of you Christians out there believe that “we” are in control in the US and that we are the dominat religion?

  Do all of you identify with Bush as our best example?

  What about the dominant religion of consumerism - one which does not demand a god or no god and the one which all of us willingly participate in without question.

  In my opinion atheists and Christians worship at the same altar (consumerism)

  In that light we’re all hypocrites and consequently none of us qualify to pass judgement on the other (unless invited)

• Comment by: Siamang

  11 02/14/06 3:40 PM | Comment Link |

  I’m sorry, Jim, but I’m having a hard time understanding your latest post.

  I thought we were talking about atheists and Christians having a dialogue. I made a (regretfully long-winded) point about the visibility of christians in society, and their numbers meaning that many many atheists either were former christians or have christian family.

  I do not understand why you have inserted into the discussion, a straw man “religion” the “religion” of consumerism. A curious “religion” which nobody will defend, has no doctrine, no deity and makes no claims, natural or supernatural.

  It seems to me to be a distraction, or a “random something we can all agree to find distasteful, Christians and atheists alike.”

  Sorry if I completely missed the point you were trying to make.

  I wasn’t talking about “who controls the US.” I was talking about “who are the people in your life?”

  If you’re an American, your President, your neighbors, friends, family, employer and even yourself are probably Christians.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  12 02/14/06 4:51 PM | Comment Link |

  Siamang
  You didn’t miss the point

  Lets wait and see who weighs in on this

  Thanks for playing

• Comment by: Esther

  13 02/14/06 5:54 PM | Comment Link |

  Very interesting dialogue. It intrigued me to want to join in. Siamang, I agreed with your feed back to Jim. (Sorry, Jim) I think the “religion of consumerism” is another topic. What Jim said about “consumerism” is right but what’s the point relating to Christian “versus” Atheist?
  Anyways, Siamang, I’m interesting to learn more about the “belief” of the atheist. Other than the one website you’ve mentioned in your dialogue, what are the others (like the ones with the magician..etc)?
  Actually, maybe I can ask both you and Hemant:
  1)What are the basic belief of Atheist?
  2)Are there actually a unitized belief for the “Atheist”? Siamang, you’ve mentioned about “A curious “religion” which nobody will defend, has no doctrine, no deity and makes no claims, natural or supernatural.” So, does it implied that the “Atheist” does have its doctrine?
  3) How do Atheist view all the “religions” or “beliefs of God”? Do you think that they are all untrue? Or you just do not want to have anything to do with them?
  A little about myself: My background is similar to Siamang except that I am a Hong Kong born Chinese-Canadian. I used to raised and trained as what Darci had descrbed! But now, I am truly curious to learn about other people’s thought and belief system.
  Thank you Jim for providing such an opportunity!

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  14 02/14/06 9:21 PM | Comment Link |

  There you go Siamang someone agrees with you - see it didn’t take long

• Comment by: Siamang

  15 02/15/06 12:48 AM | Comment Link |

  Hello Esther,

  Well atheism is a catch-all phrase. It simply describes the atheist as someone who doesn’t worship a god or gods.

  The reasons why are up to the individual.

  It could be reasons of logic, reasons of just not being exposed to religion, reasons of just not likeing religion, or even reasons of faith! You could say simply “I can feel in my heart that there is no God” and you’d have as much evidence for your belief as any theist who says the opposite.

  Myself, I do not worship a god or gods, because I don’t know which one to worship. There are millions of gods in the human pantheon, so naturally one must then choose. In the absence of compelling evidence of the existence of any of them, I simply refuse to choose.

  Homer Simpson once said “But Marge, what if we chose the wrong Church? Every Sunday we’re just making the real God madder and madder!” Homer Simpson understands Pascal better than Pascal did!

  How do I view the different religions? I view them as unproven hypotheses. Some more appealing to me than others, but none of them offer any compelling evidence. All ask me to have “the faith of a mustard seed,” but when you look at their evidence, you really need the faith of a 777 Jumbo Jet.

  You can Google the magician James Randi to find his educational foundation and discussion board.

  As for atheism, there is no doctrine, there are no leaders. It is merely the name for a person who does not worship. Because there is no doctrine, the “why” is up to you.

• Comment by: Hemant

  16 02/15/06 9:59 AM | Comment Link |

  Jim (and others)– Atheists absolutely love this dialogue. In fact, the largest events for many secular student groups nationwide are debates/multi-faith discussions. I have not seen these events occur as much through religious groups. And Siamang is right that so many Atheists do *not* come from Atheist backgrounds– most of us were raised with religion. Sometimes, even when the parents weren’t that religious in the first place!

  Esther– To add on to Siamang’s thoughts:

  Since Atheism is only the belief that there is no god, there isn’t a doctrine that tells us how to live our lives. Though most Atheists would admit to a set of morals/standards that they’ve come to understand. One example of trying to put this in words is the Humanist Manifesto (Humanist, to make it very simple, is Atheism with morals). The 3rd (and latest) version can be found here: http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/HumandItsAspirations.htm

  Since there are no leaders, it’s been a tough going to secure rights for Atheists. There’s no rallying point. Attempts have been made, though. The best one I’ve seen is the Secular Coalition for America, which is a group of several secular groups’ leaders working together to help politicians understand Atheism and their non-religious constituents in Washington D.C. The SCA hired a lobbyist for this purpose.

  I don’t think Atheists see much difference between religions. They all (basically) believe in a god, and we disagree. So all religions are based on an incorrect assumption. They don’t work.

  I heard this before, but Christians don’t believe in the Hindu Gods, and Hindus don’t believe in the Shinto God, and Shintos don’t believe in the Muslim God, and Atheists agree with all of them.

• Comment by: smt

  17 02/15/06 11:18 AM | Comment Link |

  I am not sure how relevant “consumerism” is as a religion, which by definition involves a supernatural entity. From a metaphorical standpoint, yes, consumerism, along with religion, are some of the many ways people deal the reality of existing as a conscious being aware of our inevitable demise.

• Comment by: David Buckham in St. Petersburg, Florida

  18 02/15/06 1:22 PM | Comment Link |

  Jim,

  Correct me if I am wrong. But what I think you are trying to do or say with your post is level the playing ground.

  The purpose of Off the Map is to recreate and create ordinary everyday relationships, opportunities that we miss. By recreating our relationships we have a better chance at evangelism.

  One of those OA’s are looking for commonality. Consumerism is the “alter” at which Aethists and Christians worship at. Am I any where close to the point you were trying to make…or create?

  At any rate you definately got people discussing together there opinion on whether or not you suffer from ADD.:)

  all about Christ,
  David

  all about Christ,
  David

• Comment by: KSG

  19 02/15/06 3:28 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks to all who have posted thus far, and a big thanks to Siamang for your engaging comments and to Hemant for going on this adventure.
  In reading this thread as well as a post on Hemant’s blogsite I want to pose a question to you all, regardless of belief system. My question is this… What caused you to believe the way you currently do? Did you reject the beliefs of your parents? Was it due to hypocrisy on their part? Or something entirely different?
  A common theme seems to be that people experienced church (Xian or otherwise) and made decisions based on that. I’m curious to hear from those who have rejected a religion, those who lived without a religion but have converted to one, and those who have retained the beliefs that you grew up with.

• Comment by: Siamang

  20 02/15/06 3:38 PM | Comment Link |

  Great question, KSG!

  I won’t answer here. I’ll leave it to Hemnant or the folks at Off the Page as to where to begin a new thread to talk about that question.

  Here or on Hemnant’s blogspot page.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  21 02/15/06 9:24 PM | Comment Link |

  David

  you wrote “Correct me if I am wrong. But what I think you are trying to do or say with your post is level the playing ground”

  Short answer - yes

  Long answer - I don’t think it interests people that much

• Comment by: Siamang

  22 02/15/06 11:26 PM | Comment Link |

  Well, in the absense of a thread for that question, i’ll kind of answer it here.

  I don’t see my beliefs as being a rejection of parents’ beliefs or society’s. I didn’t come to atheism during any teenage rebellion period.

  My mother and I didn’t go to church much growing up. But my father did, and i enjoyed interacting with various church youth groups. Most of my friends went to church every week.

  As an adult, I began my journey to atheism about ten years ago. My mother, who lives far away has only in the last few years turned the majority of her attention toward the church. I did not share my changes in philosophy with her, so I do not think she is reacting to me.

  I don’t like clubs or groups much, because I find the social dynamic unpleasant. So maybe that’s why I don’t like the idea of going to a church, even Unitarian Universalist, which has atheist members.

  What caused me to believe what I do? Probably a million things. Taking a survey of religions course in college, learning about the brain and how it works, following different religions and seeing that they each make claims of being an absolute truth, but none of them actually have proof.

  A big turning point was seeing a close family member die in the hospital. Watching her die and waiting for that moment of release. Scanning her features for that moment in movies where they smile because they see heaven.

  It didn’t happen. There is nothing magical about death. The body just shuts down. It’s a completely physical process.

  If you’ve never seen it before, nothing can prepare you.

  There is tremendous sadness, and tremendous, horrible grief.

  But after that, the feeling that I had been lied to. People hide death in this society. We don’t see it, we don’t deal with it. We make pretty ideas surrounding it, and preachers come in and tell you that it’s okay, and they’re with God now.

  I held the hand of my beloved, beloved grandmother as her body shut down. Her breathing grew shallow, her heart weakened, her brain must have gone out like a slow fade, and I’m staring at her feet, because I know that her feet still, somewhere in them have living cells, losing oxygen, dying of carbon dioxide poisoning… fading and fading, a whole body dying one cell at a time. And then after about ten or fifteen minutes she was completely gone.

  And I realized, holding her hand, that those preachers Didn’t know. They didn’t know more than I did in that moment.

  And so what have they been selling? To me. To everyone in the world. Since the beginning of time.

  They don’t know more than anyone.

  So I started to take apart my beliefs. Piece by piece. What is real, and what have i been sold? It took about 5 years or so after that to really start calling myself an atheist. But i can’t deny that understanding death was the key. Really understanding it.

  What is real, and what have I been fooling myself with because I can’t face a hard truth? Death happens. And nobody knows better than anyone else what happens next.

  It’s a terrible truth, and a terrible way to grow up. Well, kid, there’s no Santa Claus. Pick yourself up and keep living.

  Ohboy, I’ve written another novel. I’ll quit now.

  What a downbeat ending! Sorry, I didn’t get to the part where I started to feel better. I’m much better now! ;-)

• Comment by: whycantisubmit

  23 02/16/06 1:59 AM | Comment Link |

  what is going on here? why can’t i submit the post i’ve tried to submit five or six times now? i haven’t been abusive toward anyone.

• Comment by: whatsthedeal

  24 02/16/06 2:03 AM | Comment Link |

  I think it would interest a lot of left and progressive Christians. Maybe you can reach out and get the people at CrossLeft or Jesus Radicals to join the discussion.

  I think it’s misleading to call consumerism a religion, though. It comes off as a tactic on your part, to inflame religious folk “grr… false profits” but maybe I’m misjudging your intent. But seriously, it’s not a religion. It’s a system of control. It’s a politically engineered psychological trick that has been deliberately ignited in the population. You’re totally missing the point if you just point to it as a competitor against Christianity for people’s time and energy. It’s so much more than that.

  There’s a fantastic BBC series I suggest you track down, called “The Century of the Self.” If you want to see how consumerism “happened,” this series does as much to explain it as a four hour TV series can.

• Comment by: whatsthedeal

  25 02/16/06 2:05 AM | Comment Link |

  you can get it here

  http://isohunt.com/btDetails.php?ihq=%22century+of+the+self%22&id=4089888

• Comment by: Stephan

  26 02/16/06 11:28 AM | Comment Link |

  Jim, regarding who is in charge, us or them:

  I used to consider myself a conservative Republican. The actions of our current administration have made me strongly question that lable. I recently read the book “God’s Politics” with much delight. Finally, someone gets it. Republicans selectively read the Bible to promote their views. Democrats, in general, ignore the Bible as irrelavent. I believe the true religion of the US is self-ism. It’s right there in the Declaration of Independence - “the pursuit of happiness”. That’s always been the guiding directive of American life. Each person is their own little god, and they work to please that god. While this can probably be said of most people in the world, I think it is built into the American political system.

  That may not be at all relavent to this blog, but you asked.

• Comment by: Esther

  27 02/16/06 12:55 PM | Comment Link |

  Wow! Exciting, exciting!
  Thank you so much for both of your response, Siamang & Hemant.
  Your answer were in-line with what I thought, just that I want to get it from Atheist people so I can confirm them.
  I also think that KMG’s questions were great questions that I wanted to ask as well. Such as:
  Do some of you just rejecting religions(and their “gods”) and the way religious people carry their lives?
  In saying that you don’t believe in a god, do you truly believe that there’s no god at all, or you just don’t want to have anything to do with the God?
  I’ll go onto the sites Siamant has suggested and yours from Hemant to read more on this.
  Let me tell you how I think so far. I think that most “Atheist” people are deep thinker with a serious attitude towards “life”. These people choose not to have a whishy whashy, unclear stand point in life. They honestly admit their doubts with all the theories proposed by many religions. They dare to proclaim that they are living a life without acknowledging a God.
  I myself admire any person with these kind of attitude. (And deep in my heart, because I’m not an Atheist, I think if there’s a Creator and that this God loves the human being that this God has created, this creator will honor these groups of Atheist who are just honest to their heart)
  I said this truly not to try to “convert” you or have any hidden agenda in mind. (I hope that you can tell) This is genuienly what I think.

• Comment by: Siamang

  28 02/16/06 1:39 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks, Esther. The one thing that has come through loud and clear on this board is the GENUINE quality of people. There is a great sincerity here, and I’m happy to try and be as sincere as possible in response.

  In response to this question:
  “In saying that you don’t believe in a god, do you truly believe that there’s no god at all, or you just don’t want to have anything to do with the God?”

  What I’m saying is something different from either of those two positions.

  What I’m saying is that I do not know if there is a god or not, so I do not spend my time worshipping one.

  To clarify a bit more, I think there’s 3 possibilities for God. One is he exists as described in human religion. One is he exists in a way that no human religion understands. And the third is that he doesn’t exist.

  My study of the claims of religions has brought me to my current conclusion, that there is a serious lack of compelling evidence for option one.

  As for two and three, we’ll see! I’d like to think that I’m open-minded to seeing evidence of all three possibilites.

  What I do see is various religions conflating various images and proofs of God. They call the existence of the universe, or of beauty or wonder the proof of the existence of their God.

  But the existence of the universe only proves a sort of deist vision of God, if it proves anything at all. Religions tack on to the creation story lots of other details about God which are specific to their religion.

  The existence of beauty, love, honor and chocolate says nothing about whether or not we’re supposed to eat pork, or which day we’re supposed to rest. It says nothing about praying toward Mecca, or if we go anywhere when we die.

  Human religion does that. Humans add the details, yet claim the God of creation as proof of the validity of their own specific sect.

  I think that I have so much respect for the idea of God that I’m seeking Him sincerely and not just signing up with the first religion that knocks on my door handing out pamphlets and saying that the way is to have faith.

  Faith always tells you the same answer: your current belief system is correct. If you’re a Muslim, your faith tells you the same thing that it tells you if you’re a Mormon. It’s the magic 8-ball that has the same answer every time: “You are right! Keep believing!”

  So I don’t use faith as a guide as to what to believe. Too unreliable.

  I’ve written another book. Sorry.

• Comment by: Esther

  29 02/17/06 12:24 AM | Comment Link |

  Thnak you, Siamang.

  I love reading your book.

Leave a Reply