Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 02.20.2006 /
I went to Park Community Church near Lincoln Park in Chicago. And on a Sunday morning! :)
PCC is a non-denominational, ethnically diverse, age diverse (Lots of babies), Christian church… which has a home at a Chicago elementary school. (I know the church pays rent to the school in exchange for the space, but that relationship freaks me out in a church-state separation sorta way…)
To summarize the service: A band played while we entered, a skit was performed leading into the sermon, the sermon was delivered, and we sang some more.
Here’s what stuck out:
– The program mentioned PCC’s new building, which is not quite finished. In regards to the parking situation, it read: “…pray that God [will allow parking] for 1,200 people, rather than the 850 currently permitted.” Really? That’s what you’re praying for? Do they think a god will change parking restrictions? Will a god change the price of nearby property? Will a god add another level to a parking structure? Can the churchgoers ever do work just on their own? I sound bitter. But there are plenty of things I can think of that could warrant asking for a god’s help. Parking– even to bring in more church members– is not one of them.
– The auditorium of the school had a setup with a stage and movie screens on either side. (For those keeping track, the screens looked smaller than the TVs at Willow Creek.) I was impressed they were able to do so much within an elementary school, though. Also for those who are curious, PCC’s weekly income (by my calculations) is ~$45,477.50, at least for the past month. Which is about 1/10 of what Willow Creek takes in during the same time.
– The introduction skit was a bit cheesy for my tastes, but the teens’ message was clear: Faith + Christ = Salvation. In other words, if one has Faith in god and belief in Christ, the person will be set for (after)life. Which leads me to the pastor’s sermon…
– I’m paraphrasing, but the pastor began by saying “We’ll talk about a piece of the gospel that will glorify Jesus.” First, I’m wondering whom that was directed to. It seemed to me everyone else was already a believer, in which case, they would already glorify Jesus. It would seem more important to me, if I were a believer, to hear about the story of Christ from a new angle or hear how a Biblical message is relevant to me. I only heard further explanation of why Christ is the son of god, which would seems redundant to me, if I were a believer.
Second, why is it necessary to glorify Jesus if they said that simply believing that he died for our sins takes care of that part of the above equation?
– A bit of a rant on the sermon. (I should mention this church did NOT seem to me to be a fundamentalist one– PCC seemed more interested in the message of the Bible rather than the literal interpretation of everything the Bible says– please correct me if I’m wrong).
The sermon I listened to today focused on one chapter in Galatians (3:1-14). I can summarize it quickly: “The Galatians are fools for not believing in the divinity of Christ, and Faith is more important than any man-made laws.”
Yet, somehow, explaining this took nearly an hour. I understand wanting to gain more meaning from passages of a book you read. But I learned nothing new from listening to this sermon. It was just repeating the fact that people were foolish for doubting Christ. Which I don’t think anyone in the building had a problem with in the first place. It just seemed like a wasted opportunity to reach people with a message we could all take home. (I don’t think I heard anything worth taking back… and man-made laws are certainly vital for a functioning society–moreso than faith, in my opinion.) If this were an English class, we would look at 1-2 lines that were important and then focus on the message of the passage. Why not do that here? I don’t see why I couldn’t just read my Bible at home, since I’d get just as much out of it as I did coming to church today. I would think overanalyzing any piece of writing detracts from it’s true message. Rant over.
– On the same note, I don’t understand the lyrics of the songs sung by the band. They were saying we should glorify god. And Jesus will lead the way. Something like that. Again, who is the intended audience? It wasn’t me (this wasn’t a “seeker service”). So, isn’t everyone already on the same page? And if so, why not sing about how our life *is*, instead of how life would be if god were in it?
(Yes, I understand there are songs that do this already. But they weren’t sung this morning.)
For what it’s worth, Atheists don’t do music well at all. There are a few talented individuals, sure, but as a whole, the talent isn’t honed. That needs to change…
– The pastor didn’t connect with me. He stood behind the podium, reading his notes. He wasn’t that exciting to watch or listen to. It was very “Bible-oriented” and less about teaching a life-lesson, which I know some people prefer. I was told this was not the “regular” pastor, but still. At least the mega-churches have the speaking thing down.
One other point about speaking. If you’re a good speaker and you want to tell a joke, it needs to be an integral part of the story. Without it, your whole point should fall apart. Today, the pastor’s jokes stood alone, almost as a concerted effort to make an otherwise dull sermon more interesting. It was as if someone read his sermon and said “You should throw some jokes in here.” It didn’t come off as particularly funny or sincere…
– There was mention that “the greatest sin we commit is to think that Jesus’ death isn’t enough for our salvation,” tying in to the point of the sermon. Which made me think of 12389123 sins that I believe are far worse. I can’t imagine someone actually thinking Rape is a lesser sin than thinking Jesus’ death isn’t enough to save me.
– If it sounds like I’m being overly critical of the sermon, I looked around to see others’ reactions. I saw plenty of people picking their ears, looking around, reading the program (which, according to my middle school theater director, is the worst possible thing that could happen during a performance), and having side conversations. And this all happened throughout the sermon.
– They passed around communion to everyone (bread and wine). I didn’t take any, but I always thought that was just a Catholic thing… what’s up with that?
– I talked to a woman about her experience at PCC (she was sitting a few seats away and seemed to enjoy the service). She was 36. She said she loved PCC because of the variety of small groups, the younger crowd, and the more traditional “Bible teaching”– as opposed to watered down theology (my words, not hers). She ironically had gone to Willow Creek before, but proximity had brought her here (which she was grateful for). Even more ironically, she was raised Catholic and had baptized her child at Old St. Patrick’s Church. (We bonded, as you can see :)) I asked why she left the Catholic Church and she said it was mostly because of the ceaseless rituals, the “God hates this, God likes this” mentality, and the idea of priests not being able to marry (”That’s man-made”), among other things. She felt a stronger connection to god at PCC.
– I saw people writing on their programs. I wondered what they wrote, because I sure wasn’t hearing anything I needed to jot down. There was a lady in front of me who had been writing quite a bit and I thought it’d be funny if she had also attended Willow Creek in the past. Turns out she did. Creepy… But she liked PCC for their small groups, music, and (not surprisingly at this point) for the non-watered-down message. Which boggles my mind. (Why is that better to listen to? Does it just seem more religious?)
I asked her what she was writing. She said she was taking notes for a Bible study group she was leading later this week on the same Galatians passage. I assume she’ll probably do some thinking on her own as well, but basically, she will just repeat what was said. I believe this is the problem with religion in the first place. We just repeat what we hear, thinking someone in authority said it so it must be true. I’m not questioning her positive intentions, but I don’t think the speech I heard would connect with anyone without major tweaking.
Overall, there were a lot of issues I had with the way this service was run, but the people who attend regularly seemed very fond of it. After the service, very few people left– most stayed to talk to their friends. And I’m sure they remained there for a while. The community was very close-knit and that’s wonderful. For all the shortcomings I mentioned, PCC seemed to make up for the sermon with all the other services it provides.
I may have written a lot more than anyone actually wants to read, but if you’ve made it this far, I hope you’re able to share your thoughts.
Comment by: Jonny
1Thank you so much for that Hemant. It’s been excellent to hear your thoughts.
Comment by: Ir
2Hi Hemant, thanks for your comments on PCC. I was very interested to read them.
In my experience, guest/non-regular preachers are often much worse speakers than the regular preachers at churches, in ability to hold the listeners’ interest, and in content and organization of material preached. On the whole they have much less practice than the regular preachers and perhaps they also lack some talents which helped the regular preachers become regular.
Also in my experience, sermons have different goals; some focus on “how you can be different based on this Bible passage” and others focus on “let’s make sure we understand this passage really well”. I would think the former more likely to have something of interest for you than the latter. Especially since the latter means “let’s understand this really well given our belief system” and at this point in time you don’t accept the belief system. Whereas the former may be based on a passage which you happen to agree with anyway, at least in part or in the way the preacher is applying it, so you may be open to applying it in your life.
All the Christian churches I know of practice communion in some form; they do it because of the Bible passages where Jesus is sharing bread and wine with his apostles the night before he was crucified, where he says “Do this in remembrance of me”. They do it in remembrance of him. PCC and Willow Creek, whose beliefs are very similar, consider communion important because Jesus said to do it, and serious because of a passage saying people who take it unworthily might even die as a judgement from God. This latter passage is why at some churches like PCC they will say “this is only for believers” — they don’t want you to ‘bring judgment upon yourself’. In addition to the above beliefs, Catholics also believe the bread and wine actually turns into Jesus’ bread and body; that taking it in makes a Christian more holy and is an essential part of becoming more acceptable to God. Churches like PCC and Willow Creek tend to have communion once a month. Catholics have it every week since it’s essential.
The goal of a Christian is to be glorifying God in an ongoing way. When a Christian is sinning, he/she is not glorifying God at that moment. That’s why Christians encourage each other to glorify God in an ongoing sense and that’s why they make an ongoing effort to make choices they believe will glorify him right now.
Churches like PCC often encourage people to take notes during the sermons, to help them remember what was said.
When Christians say that a message is “watered-down”, they do tend to mean that it is not explicitly enough related to a passage/passages of the Bible, in their opinion. They may also mean that it presents what the Bible says but in an unbalanced way, highlighting some parts and avoiding others. I know Willow Creek has been criticized for preaching “watered-down” messages; this criticism is particularly applied to their weekend services which are more aimed at non-Christians than Christians. But you went to a weekday evening service; those are for Christians and so they have more singing of worship songs and probably a message more aimed at Christians.
Christians often try various churches to find the one they like best. Since PCC and Willow Creek have similar beliefs — and since Willow Creek is big and well-known to Christians in the Chicago area — it’s not surprising to me that you’d find people at PCC who’ve also been to Willow Creek.
I’ve really enjoyed reading all your comments about churches so far - keep up the good work!
Comment by: Teresa
3Hi Hemant,
Thanks for your comments and thoughts about PCC. It’s much appreciated and gives me pause to think about some things. I appreciate what you’re doing.
Comment by: cindy
4Hemant, you’re observations here are very helpful! It was definitely not more than I wanted to read. I appreciate that you took the time to be specific about your questions and the things that struck you as odd about the service.
Comment by: graham
5Thanks for the comments. I suspect some of them are a little overly cynical, but that’s a vice I can easily relate to! :-)
As someone who does a bit of teaching in church, I appreciate the reminder about the telling of jokes needing to be integrated into the sermon.
Comment by: Bob
6Hemant, You had me rolling my eyes at times and rolling on the floor laughing at others. You once again demonstrate your ability to cut through the fog and get to the heart of what is going on. Other than your misunderstanding of the Galatians chapter, this was spot on.
Comment by: Steve
7Excellent comment on church. I’ll be interested to hear any more…
Cheers - Steve
Comment by: Westy
8(I should mention this church did NOT seem to me to be a fundamentalist one — PCC seemed more interested in the message of the Bible rather than the literal interpretation of everything the Bible says — please correct me if I’m wrong)
Just to clarify a bit here, PCC would fall into the camp of considering the Bible literally true, similar to Willow Creek. Thus, likely the emphasis on unpacking exactly what Paul said in Galatians and its relevance to today.
I’m curious, what gave this impression to you?
Comment by: Hemant
9I received that impression more from the people I talked to. They didn’t seem hateful towards other faiths… or me when I told them I was not a believer. I would imagine a fundamentalist would at least flinch when I tell him/her I’m an Atheist. I didn’t get that here.
Comment by: Ir
10Hemant, have you personally met any Christians who seemed hate-filled towards other faiths?
Comment by: Westy
11I received that impression more from the people I talked to. They didn’t seem hateful towards other faiths… or me when I told them I was not a believer. I would imagine a fundamentalist would at least flinch when I tell him/her I’m an Atheist. I didn’t get that here.
Very interesting. Personally, I find this very encouraging.
If the definition of ‘fundamentalist’ as used here is one who thinks the Bible is literal, I think that should also definitely mean that person is not hateful. Jesus says in Matthew 5 that to hate someone is to murder them in your heart, thus, hopefully something a fundamentalist would not do. Not hating would not necessarily entail agreement with untruths, however.
Hemant, thanks for posting your thoughts and honest evaluations.
Comment by: Ron
12Hemant,
Thanks for the feedback. As the guy who spoke yesterday, I really apprectiate the honest eval. (Unfortunately, a lot of the time you only get polite smoke–”good job”…”thanks for the message”) I thought your comments were fair and you have certainly given me much to think about. I hope you visit again some time.
Ron
Comment by: Steve (not the same as above)
13I think this blog is a very interesting idea. I used to be a fundy Christian but now am not. I guess I would have two comments. Sermons in church are rarely, in my experience, about deep theological issues. The audience is broad and not all scholarly. Many sermons do indeed contain not information, per say, but reminders and encouragement for people to act on convictions they already hold.
Also, about the notes — I think that is too harse. I teach college class in the summer. Several times, I have given a lecture, observed students taking notes, and then later one student will explain the material again to another student using the notes he or she took from my lecture combined with their experience. Essentially, this is the same thing that you observed. I guess I fail to see the problem with that. And where do my notes come from? Studying textbooks, experience, classes, and other authorities. So it’s kind of a continual process.
Comment by: Rick
14Thanks for a very fair and honest description of your experience. And as you discovered, it is true that all Christians, not just Catholics, observe the ritual of bread and cup (sometimes wine, sometimes grape juice) that is variously called Holy Communion, the Lord’s Supper, or Eucharist (meaning “giving thanks”). For some, it is mainly a meal of remembrance and gratitude for Christ’s self-sacrifice, through which Christians believe they receive salvation; other Christians see it is a means through which, when received in faith, it conveys forgiveness of sin in a very tangible way. Because it has significance for believers, I think it was a very honorable decision on your part to refrain from participation. Thanks once again Hement.
Comment by: Meg
15Hemant,
You have very good, perceptive thoughts and observations. Take heart, not all Christians accept what is spoon fed them. It’s good to want to be challenged and examine things for yourself. Sometimes it takes a bit to find a preacher you can related to. That said, sometimes the preacher has a bad day and isn’t “on his game.” A part of being human. Sometimes a few visits to a church can change a mind as the person sees better days with the leader. Are you going to try a Presbyterian PCA church?
Comment by: Beta
16Westy, Ir,
I know that your comments were directed at Hemant but you brought up a point I would really like to hear expanded upon. I was raised in a religious household but would now consider myself agnostic. I still have many friends from our congregation and they are among the kindest (read least hateful) people I know. That said I would also generalize that they have perceptions and assumptions about non-Christians that from the outside I now find alarming. (again I knowingly generalize) I will place these into two categories
1) Christianity is the true morality and therefore those who do not know Christ are by default immoral
2) Non-Christian is equivalent to anti-Christian
When I hear comments that spring from either of these two categories it is unpleasant for me even though the words are not intentionally cruel.
I am really hoping we can have a productive discussion on this topic. So often what is being said in discussion of religious issues is not what is being heard.
Comment by: Hemant
17Ron– Thanks for the kind reply. I mean no offense to you; I hope none is taken.
Steve (#2)– You make a good point about needing notes to refer back to… as a college student. But my issue is with the regurgitation of information. And I really don’t think a lot of churchgoers are taking notes for the purpose of studying them on their own later. At least, I’ve never met anyone who has looked at them afterwards. I guess I wouldn’t know… The woman I spoke to was taking notes solely for the purpose of restating them to her small group (In her defense, she did say she also writes down any memorable lines for herself).
Meg– Church requests should be sent to the OTM people :)
Comment by: Westy
18Hey Beta,
Thanks for the response. Very interesting. I do have a couple thoughts if you’ll indulge me.
First of all, I’m glad to hear you have some good friends who happen to be Christian. As you intimate, there is a perception that many Christians would not be such. And to be honest, I’d agree, many who claim to be Christian are often not very Christian-like. That shouldn’t be the case.
As to your two categories, that’s probably pretty fair. Of the two, the more legitimate is I think the first. Since Christians do think their faith is true (and thus others false), they do believe that Christian morality as laid out by the Bible is also true. That doesn’t of course mean that they always follow it.
The key is that there is a fine line between believing yourself to be correct and not judging others. It is something we all struggle with, I believe, in whatever personal beliefs we hold to be true.
Which of the two were you feeling our comments were generated from? I apologize if I said something “unpleasant” and “cruel”, it was not my intention, as you say.
I’d be curious to hear your further thoughts.
Comment by: skikid
19Hemant~
I am so impressed with you! I would never have had the guts to go to random churches alone… still don’t. Taking notes is helpful for me in Church because a) they help me focus/pay attention (not that the sermon is usually boring) b) they are a way for me to remember what I want to ask the pastor later. Usually there’s something that I don’t understand and want clarity with (I tend to ask a lot of questions)… lucky Pastor I guess :)(Does that drive Pastors nuts?). As for the programs… I hate to admit this but programs are the best way to pass notes… not that these people were doing that but I know that I have before (I take real notes in a note pad).
Comment by: Char
20Hemant-
A friend of mine just linked me into your adventure from her blog and what great fun!
Several comments:
#16 & 18 Beta & Westy - Everybody has morals. We may have incompatible or perhaps competing morals, but everyone has them. Just as each of us is a spiritual being - especially in the sense that the sum of our physical components do not define “us.”
Christian morals are summed up as simply as this Love God and love everybody else
Figuring out what that means and looks like is what being a Christian is about. Unfortunately, that isn’t the reputation Christians have, is it?
Hemant - as far as thinking about what’s talked about rather than just reiterating what’s taught, you might catch more of that in a sermon discussion group or small group setting. My experience has been that people in our day and age rarely just take what’s spoon-fed: we’re too skeptical, been burned too often, and are more independent (or want to think we are). That said, my experience has been that particular groups seem to be more one or the other, or even whole churches, with the exception of unusual individuals.
Happy hunting!
Comment by: Paul
21Heh Hemant, top post! Every church should have critical friends like you to dialogue with, would be real intersting, informative and innovative conversations I’m sure…
Top work off the map for showing me why we need these sorts of dialogues and honest reflections and assessments not of how we want to come across/appear but how we actually do!
And Ron, very gracious response, so grateful for your kind words and listening, humble response! Awesome!!!
Comment by: Brtva (there are too many other Jessicas)
22Hemant-
I love reading your blog entries and responses from churches. It does make me think about why I do the things that I do. Your observations, I think, are honest and your questions genuine. Personally, about the note-taking thing, I take notes at church and at Bible studies that I attend. Most of the time I don’t look at them again, but it’s part of the way I learn…if I write it down, it’s better kept in my brain than if I just hear it. So I guess that’s the reason I don’t really study for my classes? I don’t know. There are times that I “regurgitate” information back to a different audience, as you say. Sometimes, though, it’s in a slightly different context and it takes on more meaning. This also being said, not everyone in my Bible study has had the same experiences and bringing together a bunch of different ideas on a topic (even if they are from different scholars or just someone’s mom) helps to get a well rounded understanding. Just some thoughts. :-) Have a great day!
Comment by: Ir
23Beta, I hear you. I have noticed that Christians often give words a particular Christian meaning. This can introduce a lot of confusion when a Christians talkiswith anyone not familiar with “Christian-speak”. It seems to me that Christians and non-Christians need to use words the same way as each other in order to have a meaningful discussion about the substantive differences in their beliefs/non-beliefs. And that when Christians and non-Christians talk without being aware that they might be using words differently, there’s a risk that one will say something that unintentionally offends the other.
As you also mentioned, I agree that Christians often seem to have misconceptions about non-Christians. Specifically -
Re: “non-Christians are immoral” — it seems clear to me that many non-Christians are kind, generous, law-abiding etc. I agree that Christians who don’t see this do have misconceptions about non-Christians.
Re: “non-Christians are anti-Christian” — I would call this a misconception — at least in this generalized form. It seems clear to me that many non-Christians have a “live and let live” attitude about the beliefs/non-beliefs of other people.
Comment by: Linda
24Question for Hemant or others -
you mentioned that if you were a believer you didn’t think the passage would be appropriate or neccesary to hear. Do you think Christian churches should direct their messages towards believers, non-believers, a mix of both, have different services for different people, etc.? And depending on your answer, how would that or should that effect the community or vision of the congregation?
Comment by: Phil Hoover-chicago
25Hermant,
I almost bid on your offer on eBAY…
And I’m glad that you are seeing what “church” is all about here in the city. Try out several congregations though, before you ditch the whole idea.
Comment by: greg
26I’m glad you went. I keep it short cause I don’t like the fluff. Non-christian = devil worshipper plain and simple. Many people are scared of the truth , understandable it takes tough people to spread the Good News. keep going and keep an open mind. But please if you end up preaching you have to shorten your sermon. HA ! God Bless You
Comment by: Mark
27greg, we don’t worship the devil because there is no devil and I assure you that you don’t hold the truth or Good News but you can believe whatever you want including the Flying Spagetti Monster is true.
Comment by: Randy Ehle
28Hemant said, “I can’t imagine someone actually thinking Rape is a lesser sin than thinking Jesus’ death isn’t enough to save me.”
Let me ask this: is rape unforgiveable, from God’s perspective? What about murder? What about murdering an innocent child? Or six million Jews?
1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.” If his death cannot save us from those horrendous sins that no human can truly forgive, then his death was in vain and God is not big enough.
The only sin that God will not forgive, according to the Bible, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10). To suggest that Jesus’ death is not sufficient to save me is, I think, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and so it is the worst of sins.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
29Randy
Are we supposed to agree with your exegesis?
If we don’t are we blasphemers?
If non followers of Jesus don’t don’t understand the “secret handshake” of scripture interpretation are they supposed to care?
Comment by: Beth
30I am so glad I found this blog. I was brought up an atheist, and altho Hemant and I now come out very different places (I’m an ordained pastor) it is just gloriously refreshing to read someone writing honestly about his take on visiting Christian churches. It brings back my own experience doing so, the total bafflement I felt at times — although I wanted to discover the truth about God so badly I was willing to forgive a lot. And Hemant throws such fresh light on all the little cultural barriers Christians stop noticing after awhile (or create new versions of over and over.) Since I happen to be in one of the more “liturgical” settings I do hope he gets there at some point, just so I can hear how we look to him… but in any case a big thank you to Hemant for these careful and clear and non-hostile and *real* assessments. I was incredibly nervous and wary when I started going into churches; he sounds a lot better than I would have! And thanks to OTM for hosting all this; what a learning opportunity.
Comment by: Siamang
31Randy brings up a passage that some Atheists joke about. I once read someone who was fed up with their parents attempts to convert them. Someone said “just tell ‘em you’ve blasphemed against the holy spirit. That way, you’re beyond all hope of forgiveness and they’ll leave you alone.”
Comment by: David in Vancouver, BC
32Hi Hemant,
You sound like a pretty cool and intelligent guy. I am a Christian, although it has taken me years to really feel comfortable with that word. Most of my friends are athiests, Jews, Muslims, alien-worshippers, or lesbians. I don’t really like most Christians to be honest. And I don’t really like most churches also. Your comment about how you learned nothing new from listening to the sermon - It was just repeating the fact that people were foolish for doubting Christ. Which I don’t think anyone in the building had a problem with in the first place. It just seemed like a wasted opportunity to reach people with a message we could all take home. really resonates with me also. I’m tired of dumb-downed sermons that keep us on spiritual milk. Where’s the beef? Anyway, when I do go to churches nowadays, I try to give the pastor my critical feedback too. One thing I wish more preachers would do is quit the lengthy drawn out sermons and break up into small groups every 20 minutes for a group dialogue. And if you ask a question from the pulpit, except and encourage the congregation to verbally answer.
Anyway, I just found your blog a few days ago and am telling all my friends about it. I’d love to hire my athiests friends to come to church with me :)
Comment by: David in Vancouver, BC
33PS - Jim, Do you live in Seattle or are you just from there originally? Let me know you ever do any Off The Map stuff this side of the 49th parallel ;)
I love the left coast! :D
Comment by: Darcy
34Hemant:
I have had to endure church sermons for 43 years. Your comments are spot on. (I even have had to give them - I cringe in rememberance) I currently regard the the sermon as similar to the neighbour’s dog barking - slightly annoying but with effort you can tune it out. I now bring a book and my journal and read. Why?
You are now talking about the elephant in the room - I suspect if people are honest they would tell their pastor something similar to what you just wrote: but we don’t because “liking sermons” is seen to be spiritual. And, many Christians are committing “bibliolotry” - they worship the book above who the book points to. I bet more people spend more time listening to the weekly sermon than doing the great commandment.
I continally ask myself your questions? “Who is the audience here?” and “Why is this auduence so stupid that they need to be talked down to and protected from real scholarship & questions?”
In what other form than church would we accept a one-way transaction of 40- 60mins duration, prepared by someone(generally)with less education than an elementary school teacher?
I believe that you have attended mostly big churches that can hire better-trained, seasoned, acknowledged “better” preachers. (Maybe the top 10% of the group) Think of all the people sitting listening every sunday to the “bottom half” of that group grinding their way through Galatians…(most of us) and you can see why the NFL and Nascar are gaining audience share.
And, I’m a guy that loves church.
Darcy in Vancouver
Comment by: skikid
35Are there different requirements to become a pastor at different chruches… I guess I thought that all pastors had to go to seminary and that was masters degree (at least)?
Comment by: Bethany
36Hemant,
you should write a book (in your spare time…)
I’d buy it. :-) I appreicate your real and fair analysis, and you challenge me to rethink why I do certain things associated with my faith.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
37David in Vancouver
Yes Off The Map does things on the left coast
contact us at info@off-the-map.org
Comment by: Josh
38Hemant,
Very interesting points…I must admit, you bring a lot of “food” to the table….something to think about. Although I, as a Christian, will not change my belief in Christ, I will think about the things you have stated…This is a very good thing, yes. Every church is different…every believer different…but one thing i must say about the church today is, no matter the difference in beliefs, MOST churches have this one thing in common…they believe in Jesus Christ as the messiah, the saving One, Son of God, Redeemer, etc…but a problem in todays church is the fact that, if another church doesn’t believe in healing, speaking in tongues, etc…they stay away from eachother…causing division in the local church…which is actually contrary to what the bible teaches…Unity…I heard someone once say that Unity sounds like “You and I tie”…but a lot of Christians seem to overlook this teaching…this command from God. I find it ironic that more “unbelievers” understand the concept of unity better than most Christians…Such an irony…pity…Maybe one day we will learn…Good thoughts Hemant, i look forward to more.
Josh
Nashville Tennessee
Comment by: Kevin Risser
39To Darcy in vancouver, why do you waste your time going to church? what do you like about church that you would go to church and take a magazine to read?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
40Kevin:Great question, I would like to know the same thing
Comment by: Sylvia
41I’m a Christian, and a leader in our small church. I really learned a lot reading your post about attending church. Some of it made me flinch, I recognized some of the elements of the worship service and seeking it through your eyes really woke me up. Some of what you experienced was regretable. That’s the only word I can think of to describe my feelings.
There were some things you experienced that I wonder if you misunderstood because you don’t speak the ‘christianese’ that most Christians speak at church. You did comment that it was not a seeker service, that may be why you didn’t connect with some of it. And that made me think about those churchy words we Christians all use when a simple word would do.
I found myself wanting to explain the service to you, and then I found myself realizing that traditions can really overshadow the Truth. Why try to explain something that is a tradition when its not the tradtion that is is important anyway?
Hemant, I really appreciate your views, thank you. They have really given me a lot to think about.
Sylvia
Comment by: Lucas
42Atheists don’t do music nearly as well? Have you ever heard of the band Atheist? Pioneers of their genre. Their music is largely unsurpassed today.
Anyway, as a Christian myself, I have to say that I always love reading and hearing what other people have to say about the faith itself or different institutions/people representing the faith. I haven’t been to this church, but the church I attended in my hometown was much like this and I think I can relate. A good amount of redundancy. It seems like churches tend to prefer sticking with the easy message instead of challenging their ideas and coming up with really though-provoking concepts.
Something that you may come across (or have come across already) is the use of pop-culture to try to lure in believers (e.g. Bibles that look like iPods, ads that spoof popular movies/music, etc.). That’s something that really bothers me and I’d like to know your view on it.
Comment by: Blake
43Hement,
Thanks for the honest, reasoned impressions of your church experience. I am an evangelical Christian, and a member of a large Baptist church in Houston, TX. I swapped a couple of e-mails with you on eBay. I can relate to the “culture shock” of the new church experience. I was raised in the traditional Baptist church, but chose not to continue attending when I was a teenager. It was the age of TV-evangelist scandals and as a result, I was very skeptical of organized churches. I spent more than twenty years looking for “that one thing” (in the words of Billy Crystal in “City Slickers”) and really didn’t give religion much serious consideration. A couple of years ago, after a lot of feet-dragging and excuses, I came to the realization that what I was looking for was Christ. I REALLY could not fathom being one of those “bible-thumpers”, but I knew that I needed God.
When I returned to the church, I was very intimidated by the church-speak and some of the rituals that were foreign to me. But, I could tell that the people there were sincere and obviously possessing a contentment that I did not possess. They also possessed the same values as I did and that many think have disappeared from America. If you’re looking for patriotism, it’s at the church. If you’re looking for good neighbors, they’re at the church. If you’re looking for people that genuinely care about others and not just what others can do for them, they’re at the church.
Our church does observe communion, which most all biblically-based churches do, but not at every service, only on certain occasions. This is not simply a church tradition. It comes straight out of the scripture. In Luke 22:17-22, Jesus instructs the disciples how to partake of the bread and wine and tells them to “do this in remembrance of me.” However, it is only a remembrance of Christ and is not represented as “receiving grace”, as in some churches. One receives all the grace they require when they surrender to Christ.
I did feel like there was too much singing and not enough sermon. This was a contemporary service, which was a total departure from the choir and organ services I had attended as a youth. I had never seen the raised hands during worship songs. I couldn’t help but wonder if they had a question. I’ve gotten over that. I also felt like everything was done at a very fast pace and somehow lacking some of the reverence that I thought a church service should have.
I still feel that way to an extent. However, I did get used to the new culture and came to the realization that I needed to fully commit and join the church. My wife and I both went through this at the same time. We went down in front at the end of the service. After speaking with one of the deacons, I found that it was expected that we would be baptized. I had always been nervous about that prospect when I was younger, but now it seemed right and after reading about it in the bible, I found that it is a new Christian’s first expression of obedience. So, I was baptized and I was fine with it.
You see, Christianity goes beyond merely acknowledging Christ. It is the surrender to His will. This was something that I had not previously understood. So many people quote John 3:16 and claim that all you have to do is believe in Jesus to be saved. However, to “believe” means to believe that Christ is the son of God and that Christ died for YOUR sins (and mine). It does not simply mean to acknowledge that Jesus Christ once walked the earth. Romans 10:9 says “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Surrendering to Him also means repenting against your sin, because that is His will. And repenting doesn’t just mean saying that you’re sorry. It means changing your ways and avoiding doing that which you know is sin.
All this was something that hadn’t “clicked” before. It made all the difference. I accepted Christ and surrendered to Him. I can tell you first-hand that it was a very real experience. My mind and heart radically changed. I had vivid dreams, my attitude changed and my priorities completely changed. I asked God to “knock my socks off” and He did. Among other things, I gained an insatiable hunger for the scripture what I read MADE SENSE to me. It was as if my eyes were now opened and the truths in the bible were slapping me in the face.
I had to chuckle at your comments about praying over parking and I really relate to the thought about it not being worth praying for. I used to make similar comments myself. Actually, the first time I attended our church, they were praying FOR parking problems. If you have parking problems, it means that your church is growing. That’s a GOOD thing. However, I have found that answering simple prayers is one way that God demonstrates His existence to us. The bible tells us in Mathew 21:22 that Jesus said “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
Many times, I have thought about a certain desire, but not really a need, and thought it too trivial to even bring up to God. Then, out of the blue, that “need” will get met and usually in some way that I never would have imagined. In most cases, these are incidents that wouldn’t mean anything to anybody else and would no doubt be laughed at by a skeptic. But, I know that God made them happen. That’s just how He works.
I hope that you will continue your journey and explore more churches, preferably those that hold to biblical doctrine. Anything else isn’t really Christianity. I doubt if any Christian out there would deny that there are problem in the churches, along with hypocrites and fakes. However, nobody’s perfect. After all, that’s the whole premise of Christianity. We’re not perfect and we need forgiveness for it. John 1:8 says “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
Comment by: Jen in New Brunswick
44Are there different requirements to become a pastor at different chruches… I guess I thought that all pastors had to go to seminary and that was masters degree (at least)?
The requirements to become a pastor vary from denomination to denomination. In the Wesleyan church, of which I am a member, in order to become an ordained minister (a reverend), you have to have a Bachelor’s degree in Religion, and you have to undergo an extensive application and interview process. Also, before you can become a reverend, you first become a licensed minister, then you must serve for at least 2 years in a Wesleyan church, at the end of which you can be ordained. I don’t know much about other denominations, but those are the requirements for mine.
Comment by: David in Vancouver, BC
45First off, Darcy/Jen — it’s cool to see a couple of fellow Canadians here. I run an online group and it’s predominantly Republican Americans with an axe to grind against Canada, NPR, etc, so this is happily refreshing.
Jim — I’ll be sure to join the mailing list for Off The Map events in Vancouver. I don’t have a car, so if you hold them out in our Bible Belt suburbs like Langley or Abbotsford, I won’t be coming. Those suburban Bible thumpers all have shiny new cars, they can drive to the heathen city of Vancouver.
Lucas — Sam Pascoe, American scholar wrote: “Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.”
Josh - I don’t find it ironic that more “unbelievers” understand the concept of unity better than most Christians. The Holy Spirit does not hold a monopoly on WASPs. Also, a public meeting on Sunday morning is just that - a public meeting. It’s certainly not enough to feed a Christian into maturity and it’s no longer a place I go to for “fuel for my week”. I used to go to churches hoping for some type of “recharging” my batteries or being encouraged/strengthened by mature believers, only to leave more tapped out and more discouraged than when I arrived. But I’ve grown a lot since then.
I’ve learned that my closest friend is Christ and Christ alone. After Him, it’s my family and closest friends (most of whom are not Christians in ‘name’, although I think they are becoming Christians in ‘deed’). I believe that we need to be feeding ourselves 24/7 and involved in both ‘in reach’ and ‘outreach’. In reach is something I lack, because most Christians rub me the wrong way. Well, to be honest, they don’t even want to rub me, I seem to send them running off to the safety of their Christian Clubs. I’d rather be buddies with someone like David Bazan or even Jack Johnson who has more “Light” and “Unity” in him than many fools parading around with fish symbols on their car bumpers while they pound their fists into their steering wheels honking at other drivers who cut them off on the road (Talk about turning the other cheek - not). The exception, of course, are those darling people with the Darwin fish symbols. You gotta love those people, they rock.
Sylvia — I lost all my Christianese after high school. I hopefully killed the part of my brain that retained any of my childhood Christianese by smoking lots of pot in my late teens and early 20s. And while I am not advocating marijuana, I think the habit of speaking Christianese is worse than the habit of smoking pot (which I no longer smoke, by the way). Anyway, I prefer clear English. Whenever I hear Christianese today, my brain totally hurts and I ask the person for an English translation.
Comment by: Westy
46For those who may be interested, you can download the sermon from the service Hemant went to last weekend at Park here.
In the interest of full disclosure, I have to admit I really liked the sermon. I guess that goes to show us that people want different things in a service and sermon.
Comment by: Lucas
47David, that’s a fantastic quotation.
You’re also my hero for talking about Dave Bazan.
Comment by: Randy Ehle
48A response to Jim Henderson (comment #29), who said, “Randy Are we supposed to agree with your exegesis? If we don’t are we blasphemers? If non followers of Jesus don’t don’t understand the “secret handshake” of scripture interpretation are they supposed to care?”
No, you don’t have to agree with my exegesis. Not agreeing with me doesn’t make anyone a blasphemer. After all, I may be wrong - and I’m not even sure what constitutes “blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.” (Siamang, I liked your answer to Christians who won’t get off your back about converting - “tell ‘em you’ve blasphemed against the holy spirit. That way, you’re beyond all hope of forgiveness and they’ll leave you alone.” Thanks for sharing that! Sadly, most Christians who wouldn’t leave you alone before probably wouldn’t leave you alone after telling them that, either. Go figure.)
Back to Jim’s last question - there is no “secret handshake” of interpreting the Bible. Actually, the basic principles are the same as for interpreting any literature - things like understanding the genre, the historical and literary contexts, etc. Also, the presuppositions we each bring to the task will necessarily affect how we understand the Bible - or any other book, for that matter. Anyone who approaches the Bible believing that it is just another collection of centuries-old religious writings will interpret it differently than someone who believes that it is (or even just may be) God’s word.
By the way, the goal of interpreting the Bible should not be to find reason to validate my presuppositions; the goal should be to understand first of all what the original author intended to say (and mean) to his original audience, and second, to uncover the significance of that for me today.
Comment by: Michael
49Hey Hemant,
I read the Journal this morning, and was quite suprised when I saw you attended Park Community Church. As a regular attender, I am always very interested in what non-Christian’s think when they come in to experience the service.
I would first caution you by saying that church does not equal faith. Faith comes from knowing Christ personally. Church is definately included in that, but not the primary focus or necessity. It is also about personal experiences. Such as times when you know Christ has been present in your life. This is not always the easiest thing to see, but let me tell you, He is there. I can try to elaborate more on that if you would like. It is more personal life experiences that would take me a while to write out.
I am sure it is easy for someone who doesn’t believe this stuff to be skeptical as well as a little guarded. I am very aware that Christianity can come off as an esclusive group of people ready to point out others’ faults, etc. I struggle with that perception myself.
Christianity is not legalistic, full of rules/laws to follow. However, when you allow Christ to work in your life, you begin to see the activities and lifestyle choices that lead you down a destructive path (a sin filled life). That is not to say that people are inherantly evil or bad, but that there are better life choices that can be made. This can tend to be hard for non-believers as they tend to think they have to give up everything that is fun or enjoyable. I can assure you that Christianity is not a boring life, but not an easy one either.
I am not sinless in any regard. Christianity is focused primarily on identifying that you are a sinner. Therefore you fall short of the glory of God. Jesus was sent at the sacrificial lamb to atone for our sins to bridge the gap between each individual and our heavenly father. Before Jesus, in the Old Testament, sacrifices were made to God for atonement. Jesus served as the ultimate sacrifice! His blood was shed to save a fallen world. He suffered and experienced Hell for us. The only job of the Christian is to believe that truth and accept that gift. It’s that simple.
That said, many Christians desire to learn what they can about the life of Christ, and how He would handle life situations. This is done through reading the bible and prayer. These are not requirements, but they become desires as you grow in faith. Life throws us many curves, and by studying Christ’s life, we can better understand what He would desire of us in overcoming the situations.
I didn’t mean to preach, but I wanted to share my feelings regarding faith. Be assured that I am not perfect in this, but I know that God is real, and that he is obviously seeking you out. Something about it all entrigues you, and he is putting it on your heart to check it out.
Obvioulsy I live in Chicago, and if I can be of any help in your search, please don’t hesitate to let me know.
Best Regards and God Bless You,
Michael
Comment by: fran
50You know Christ “supernaturally”as a ghost. No one knows him personally from this age . Those are the kind of mistruths that make my skin crawl. They are literally lies masked as truth and please no boo hoos that wasn’t an attack.
Comment by: Ron
51Fran,
You don’t know anyone on this blog except “as a ghost” either. I would hate to see such a smart person as yourself buy into lie’s.
Comment by: fran
52I can make a reasonable assumption based on the way the data line is conducted that a living breathing person made the entry . If I was still uncertain I could link the url back to the owner and retrieve an address for that person, so in the interim I doubt it was a ghost . As for Christ any “personal” relationship would be of a ghostly variety and that is certain.
Comment by: Ir
53Hi Michael,
Thanks for posting. I hope you’ll check back in case anyone posts any questions to you about what you wrote.
Comment by: fran
54I used to play footsie with my child when she was little. I used to read her stories from fantasy land too ( Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz.) I grew out of that :) and so did she.
Comment by: Michael
55Faith is believing something to be true even when you can’t see it. I believe based on what the bible tells me. By the way, there is more documentation to back the bible then most historical events in your American History text books. And I will guess you all believe what you learned in elementary school.
I’m not out here to convert you all, I am going to live my life the way I feel God is calling me to live it. Now, as I mentioned a couple of times, I am definately not perfect, but I do believe in the supernatural presence of God. He has never spoken to me in voices, but my faith leads me to believe that He does guide me through events (closing and opening certain doors) in my life. I am sure this all sounds like such BS to many of you. That is for you to research and discover on your own. I challenge you to do that.
Michael
Comment by: Jane
56The message of Galatians if far more interesting and has much more meaning if you understand the historical and political context in which it was written. It was meant to provide meaningful guidance to a people new to a new faith. If we simply parrot the language without understanding, it becomes a very different and largely empty message. That is what is wrong with many churches and many Christians today. You can’t just BE a Christian, you need to take time to learn and understand. You need to grow in faith.
Comment by: TXatheist
57Michael said
As far as what events? I have another definition of faith from the atheist perspective.
Comment by: Michael
58What is the atheist definition?
Comment by: TXatheist
59As far at what events?
Comment by: Michael
60I am not understanding you question…do you mean which event in American History, or which event in the bible?
Comment by: TXatheist
61Either one, specifically the bible though.
Comment by: Siamang
62Yeah, because all we have to prove the civil war happened is thousands of photographs, millions of letters of the individual soldiers involved, graveyards full of bodies buried….
Pure speculation.
On the other hand, oral traditions about a worldwide flood that nevertheless no-one seemed to notice or write about in ancient egypt… that’s rock-solid-fact.
Comment by: Michael
63I wasn’t necessarily naming a specific event. When I used the word “event” is was refering to events in American history. However, there are many geological findings that point to the validity of the bible. One of the most famous being the Dead Sea Scrolls, which documented many of books for the bible.
I am still interested in your definition of faith.
Comment by: Ir
64Michael, the Dead Sea Scrolls show that certain books of the Bible are old and haven’t changed very much over time.
That doesn’t prove that the Bible is true, only that it’s old and hasn’t changed much.
Comment by: TXatheist
65It’s not mine it’s Mark Twain’s “Faith is believing what you know ain’t true”
Comment by: fran
66Mark Twain rocks!!!!!!
Comment by: Siamang
67Michael:
This heiroglyphic has remained unchanged for thousands of years. It depicts various ancient egyptian gods.
http://people.hofstra.edu/faculty/martha_hollander/GalleryPictures/FullSizedImages/Egyptian/JudgementOsiris.jpg
The fact that it is ancient and unchanged doesn’t change the fact that these gods were myths.
Comment by: Ron
68Mark Twain’s definition could also be applied to fear too.
Comment by: TXatheist
69What does that mean?
Comment by: Michael
70No one ever said “religion” and for that matter “faith” was perfect. Saimang, all you point proves is that there have been beliefs in different religions/Gods for a long, long time. I don’t dispute that. I believe that God (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) is real, alive, and present in my life. That doesn’t prove that I am right. I will leave that up to the bible.
Ir, regarding the fact that the bible is old and unchanged is part of what makes up the foundation of the Christian faith.
TX, forgive me for saying this, but that definition makes no sense. If you believe something you know to be untrue, then there is no belief in it. Where is the faith, you already know?
Comment by: Ir
71I understand - but do you see the difference between “this is old and unchanged” and “this is true”?
If the original Bible documents were true, then, sure, it’s important to establish that the Bible Christians read today is the same text; that it has not been altered in any significant way over the centuries.
But one still has to establish that the original documents were true.
Comment by: TXatheist
72Michael,
If you want to understand the atheist interpretation of it I’ll explain. You have to call it faith because we all realize that it’s a matter of desire for it to be true but deep down we all know it’s not no matter how strong the desire/belief.
If you’d like to explain the fear idea I’m listening
Comment by: TXatheist
73Michael,
No religious scholar will agree that the bible has been unaltered/unchanged.
Comment by: Ir
74Actually, I don’t agree that ‘deep down we all know it’s not true’.
Based on my experience and observation, Christians really believe what they say they believe.
Comment by: TXatheist
75Ir,
Point taken, but please distinguish between believe it’s true and know it’s true as the difference. I don’t doubt they believe it’s true, just as I did.
Comment by: fran
76Most people , including myself at times, have a hard time conceiving of the idea of non-existance So many mystical explanations are naturally contrived to replace it with a place for existing in what would otherwise be a dark and non existant place. As humans we are riddled with images of ghosts and spirits of suffering, isolation and loneliness but all of those images are just manifistations of our human experience . When we die we simply cease to experience and there is really no need to fill in the blanks. Do what you can for humankind now and forget about all of the fantasy and mysticism beyond . Learn to let it be and live for today. Fill the hearts of those around you with joy and learn to live healthy clean and didicated lives . Dedicated to the advancement of offspring to come
Comment by: Ir
77But…I don’t agree that Christians all know it isn’t true. I don’t think they’d believe it if they knew it wasn’t true.
If you believed things you knew deep down weren’t true when you were a Christian, I respect that.
But I don’t think that’s true of all Christians. It wasn’t true of me.
There’s a difference between “not knowing something is true” and “knowing something is not true” - perhaps some Christians would say “Ok, I recognize that I have faith, that I’m not certain my beliefs are true”. But I really don’t think most Christians believe what they know is not true.
Comment by: TXatheist
78Ir,
Ok, and let’s just leave it:)
Comment by: fran
79Everyone who is involved in war today is involved , because they think that there fanatical idea of afterlife is better than the next guys. My god is better than your god and all it is is fanatical ranting with regards to nothingness and to think young kids give up their lives for the misguided spiritual fantasies. It’s truely sad.
Comment by: Ir
80Fair enough, TXatheist.
Michael, I’m feeling a little uncomfortable that perhaps I have had a part in taking this beyond discussion into debate, which OTM has said is not the purpose of this site. I’m sorry about that.
Comment by: Michael
81OK, I am back…I left work to come home, and am going to be leaving again. Really, I would just like to say that I have enjoyed this discussion. I will try to check back periodically to see how it is going.
Ir-don’t be worried about the debate. It is a good one, and one that will continue as long as there are different religious beliefs. Obviously everyone stands where they do for a reason. I have my beliefs and faith in God. You may not agree with me on it, and I can respect that as long as you have given faith an honest pursuit, and don’t just disregard it because you want to.
I am not quite sure where Fran was coming from other than to say that I get the impression that she (I am assuming Fran is a she) is against war, and believes that the war we are currently in is one of religiousity (Christian against Muslim). I happen to disagree with that stance, but that is another point entirely.
I really have to run now, but I send blessings to all of you…LOL. Just thought I would throw that in. God really does love you all, and desires to have a personal relationship with you. More Christian speak, but I believe it to be true.
Michael
Comment by: Sajiv
82.
If you read this comment by Greg…. it makes you grimace.. People like Greg are the black sheep in the christian community. Zero tolerance towards other faiths. He sounded much like christianity’s equivalent to Osama. God save us from people like him !
Comment by: Kaori
83Hemant, wow. Thank you so much for your comments on PCC. I have been going to Park since 2003, I am very active there, I don’t remember if that was the Sunday I played, but I play keys on worship team and I wish to talk to you on worship music sometime…in fact, I wish I could have met you…
And I just want to congratulate you - I saw you on TV and indeed, you have nothing to lose but so much to gain in doing this.
I just thanked God for you and your desire to know the truth.
I grew up in Japan where people celebrate their birth in Shinto way, buried in Buddhist cemetary, get married in a “chapel”, celebrate paganistic festivals and X’mas (not Christmas…)I am so thankful that God never left my side and when I screamed at Him in a life’s mess “If you are for real, help me!” and found Him with open arms “I was waiting for you to notice me, come…”
I cannot live my life without Him. He is alive. I LOVE reading the Bible, believers call this activity “being in the Word”.
The Word, is Jesus himself to me. And through it, I actually feel like I am with Him. I talk to Him, He talks to me…
You know, Christians too, struggle with what the Bible says at times. I do too. But I just enjoy the time I spend in the Word. I love worhiping Him through music, prayer, the way I live…
For Christians too, trusting God is a difficult thing to do. But I have learned in the last few years, little by little, to trust Him. He loves me and you so much that even when we fall and stumble, He picks me up and we walk together. He walks with me. Quite a different story from what I used to practice - Buddhism.
Once again, I am so glad that you have the courage do this, and I love it that you are respectful.
I have read only a few pages worth of comments, but I am looking forward to reading more.
Maybe this is not something one does here, but my life is a constant prayer and I just want to pray…
Heavenly Father, Lord God, who is everything to me. The fact that I can come to You and talk to You any time I want, I can talk to You as your daughter, Your friend, Your sister…and I don’t need anything else between me and You! And to live a life where I can say “I don’t have to worry jack!” - the peace and joy that I can have! God, thank You for Hemant. May You help Hemant find the Truth. In Jesus’ name I pray… Amen…
Comment by: Pete
84Hemant,
I’m blown away by the adventure you have undertaken here…I must admit that I just heard about this today (in the 3/10 Sun-Times article) and I’ve only had a chance to read your thoughts on your experience at Park Community Church. Even if this is no more than an experiment, I am very impressed by your courage and boldness in allowing yourself to be immersed in the culture and teaching of churches whose message(s) you might find quite distasteful (or at the very least, drearily banal).
When I was 24, I vividly remember my similar experiences as an athiest/agnostic attending a series of different churches (Catholic, Evangelical Free, Episcopal, non-Denominational) in an effort to maintain the affection of my girlfriend at the time — a believing Christian. Walking into church (and even thinking about or discussing Christian theology) always gave me a pit in my stomach — I’m not sure if you get that or not, but maybe I could best describe it by saying “I felt icky inside”. Sometimes this was because I was ashamed to be there, and other times I felt ashamed of everyone else who was there. Looking back, I think I was trying to prove to my girlfriend that I was open-minded, but in reality I was seeking evidence to build a case that most of what she believed was utter crap. We had some heated discussions, and I think I opened my mind to some “possibilities,” but I was convinced of nothing when we eventually broke up.
End of story? Not quite. During the last throes of our relationship, she had moved away from Chicago and out of desperation I promised her I’d try attending Park semi-regularly on my own — and just to let her know I meant business, I even attended a small “seekers” group a few times and served a meal at a homeless shelter with a group from the church. After the breakup, I thought I’d go back to sleeping in on Sundays but there was something in my heart telling me I needed to keep giving it a shot. I wasn’t looking for rituals or traditions, I didn’t think I needed new friends or activities, and I certainly hated the thought that I would be doing something SHE wanted. But still I kept going. And going. And going…until I noticed that things were changing in me. All I can say is that my heart felt different. It didn’t happen overnight, but I now see the work that God was doing in in my life. I was starting to submit to Him — not that I ever asked for that; but it was just, well, happening. It might sounds creepy, but it wasn’t like that “Creepy Christian” syndrome when people start speaking in low, passive voices and talk in long, drawn-out sentences and have this weird twinkly smile all the time. It was actually very difficult at times when I stepped back and realized that I was actually starting to BELIEVE this stuff, but as I attended services and engaged in more classes and service opportunies (like the homeless shelter), some deep, powerful, visceral feeling started to pervade my existence and I just couldn’t avoid the deep truth I was confronted with. I think that feeling is what Christians define as “joy”. And as someone who LOVES being a follower of Jesus Christ today, I can honestly say that there’s nothing that satisfies more than a true encounter with the Joy that God can bring into your heart.
Let me tell you something — I consider myself an extremely logical and rational person. I was an English major but my favorite classes at my state university were “Philosophy of Logic and Reason” and “Philosophy of Scientific Thought”. And while there are many rational reasons to be a Christian, I don’t think there’s any doubt that believing what I believe — that there is a God who loves us personally, who became a man and performed miracles, then died horribly on a cross and rose from the dead a few days later just so that I (and any other individual who believed) would be able to be redeemed — is one of the most irrational things that someone can believe. In fact, it would be considered radical and downright laughable if we didn’t live in a culture where so many people simply take it for granted. I sometimes laugh at myself for believing it, but I’m laughing happily like it’s an in-joke at the expense of the guy I used to be. I like the new guy better, and most other people seem to like the “new me” better also. Being a Christian isn’t about being liked, but it’s one of the blessings that God often pours out on us in his abounding grace. Oh wait, “blessings from above?” and “Grace?”— two others concepts that are completely irrational to believe in. But they’ve happened to me (I could write a book about them), so who am I to argue? For me, I’ve found it much more satisfying to believe.
A couple other points to clarify about your comments on Park (I’m writing these from the perspective of an attendee; I’m not on staff or anything)
1. The parking situation — it’s pretty complicated to get anything done within the zoning requirements of Chicago, and in order to construct the new church auditorium with enough space to seat our congregation (and folks just stopping in), there is a requirement to be a set number of dedicated spaces. It’s been a immense, tiring, and frustrating effort for many involved on the building team, thus the prayer request. Also, our church does want visitors to come and experience the teaching and worship we offer, and if we can help it we don’t want anyone who is seeking that experience to circle the block in frustration before leaving because they couldn’t find a spot. I’d also note that as Christians we are taught that there is no prayer too big, or too small, for God. We lift everything, no matter how insignificant or significant, up to Him.
2. You mentioned that Park isn’t a “seekers” church and that any messages about the basics of the faith are, to paraphrase, preaching to the choir. While it’s true that Park’s vision isn’t solely seeker-oriented, I can’t tell you how many “seekers” I know (including myself) who have come to faith at Park. We are a church of many believers, but we are always trying to speak to those in the audience who may have not planted their feet spiritually.
3. The “literal” question. The word “literal” is a very loaded term when people speak of the Bible. Most Christians (including many at Park) believe that the Bible is “true”, but this word can apply in different ways. For example, I personally believe that every statement made in the Bible about God is consistent with His character (or on the character of the universe and beings He created, depending on who/what is being spoken of). However, some books of the Bible were written for different purposes and in different contexts than others (usually this is made clear by the author of the book, although Bible commentaries help) For example, I don’t personally believe that God “literally” created all of existence over the course of six 24-hour days. That doesn’t mean that I throw out everything in Genesis as hooey — I strongly believe in what God reveals about His goodness and omnipotence in that book of the Bible, and about the nature of humanity and our separation from him due to a corruption that occurred in our very nature. But, (and I’m still investigating theories of origins and creation), my personal beliefs are that while we’re not here by accident, the geological record doesn’t necessarily agree with Genesis being fully applied as a book of historical/scientific facts. Many Christians would strongly disagree with me on this particular point, but I know they would agree with me that the TRUTH found in Genesis transcends any questions of “literality” regarding the historical/scientific content. In other cases, such as the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, I certainly believe in the “literal” interpretation of these events, since they are the crux of the belief and experience of being a Christian. I could continue with other examples, but I’ll just end with this: When someone you love turns to you and says “I love you”, do you ask them “Should I take that literally?” The concept of love transcends the condition of being literal/not literal. So, too, does God transcend this question in his love for us. The Bible is his statement, his poem, his song of that love for you and everyone else on this Earth.
Comment by: Susan
85Hermant,
WOW, This is wonderful to get this kind of feedback! I attend two or more churches a week and have been tagged a Jesus Junkie. I have wanted input as to how not to insult those with different belief systems and you are providing that and more. I hope that the Christian community can employ you full time to continue to give us feedback that is not mean spirited and judgmental.
May your journey be fruitful and fun!
Susan
Comment by: Kaori
86Hemant, ever since I first heard about you, I can’t stop thinking about you. I have read more of your blogs, your articles, and I really respect you. You do have an open mind, and treat everyone with respect regardless of what they think or say…you said somewhere you haven’t found God yet, and you aren’t sure if you will, but you will keep open mind and will continue to visit churches. I don’t know you will accept this, but God has given you a great heart. I am confident that God will bless you and He will lead you to the truth you are looking for.
By the way, I want you to know that people who call themselves Christians, people like me, are all walking in our faith in a different speed, styles, forms etc…God meets us where we are at. So on our journey, we may not be able to express or represent our faith well. Just want you to know that. The good news is that for all of us who believe in God, it is a continuous journey. At the end of the journey, we will be able to be who God designed us to be. The good news is that even though we may fail to walk straight, or even though we may fall and stumble, God will reach out and picks us up, and we can walk with Him again. He will never leave us or give up on us no matter how much we mess up. That’s the hope we have. we don’t have to worry about messing up - we can ask God to help us. It is good not having to depend on myself to be “good”. If it were up to me, I know I will mess up.
Also, I’d like to mention that I found some comments from believers from which my take differs, but I know God is working in me and working in them, and I thank God for this opportunity to ponder those points.
I thank you, Hemant, for making it clear that this is a place for discussion and not for debate. I like that people are respecting that too. What I find often in discussion like this is people getting too passionate - believers and non-believers alike - but I am reminded that we, the followers of Christ are discouraged from “quarreling about words” , we are warned that it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. We are warned to avoid godless chatter, because “those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly”. So I pray that we all will receive discernment and wisdom so that we can know Him better and so that we can understand what the truth is.
I also would like to encourage believers to pray for those who don’t know God, when they misunderstand or when they think the Bible makes no sense. We are to be reminded that the bible itself says that the wisdom of God is foolishness to those who don’t know…We should be reminded that if they don’t believe in God, if the Holy Spirit is not in them, they can’t understand. So instead of trying to control the situation and pursuage and argue (which is hardly the case on this blog) the best thing is for us to pray for those who don’t believe to receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation so that they can know Him.
Hemant, I am praying for you. That He will lead you to the truth. I want you to know the joy of knowing Him. It is the best relationship one can ever have.
Comment by: TXatheist
87Kaori,
If Hemant remains an atheist, can you accept that? By accept I mean let go of the praying for him and realize he is content being an atheist that has looked for God and was unable believe god exists.
Comment by: Kaori
88Hi, TXatheist!
My immediate answer was “Yup, I can accept that”.
Then I said “wait a minute, let go of the praying for him” - no, I can’t do that. If God prompts me to pray, I have to be obedient to Him and pray. If He says to me “Don’t pray for him, it’s all right, let it go”, then I will drop it.
But you see, I have no control over anything, it is up to God. And for now, He has put on my heart to pray for Hemant. So I will.
I can accept that he is content being an atheist. Hemant said on CBS interview “It’s a win-win situation for me. If they convert me, I’ve just been saved!”
Well, I want him to win, you know. I want the best for him. That’s all.
Comment by: TXatheist
89Kaori,
Accepting he is an atheist and may remain one is enough for me. you can pray all you want for him. I think he is the best he can be right now, an open-minded atheist:)
Comment by: Kaori
90TXatheist,
“I think he is the best he can be right now, an open-minded atheist:) ” - I fully agree! and I totally respect him.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
91Kaori, TX, do you really believe that? I may be too “old school”, but that doesn’t even make sense to me, unless we’re just playing “nice, nice” here.
Is it not okay to really and sincerely believe someone is wrong, and yet still be kind and loving? Isn’t there some kind of subtext to this whole thing? Isn’t that what makes the civility such an incredibly bright beacon compared to the average net chat?
Am I missing something here?
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
92Tom,
I am attempting to phrase it nicely but my message is hopefully coming across loud and clear. Hemant will most likely remain an atheist and that is not only acceptable it’s frickin great. He went in with an open mind and up to this point rejected xianity. Marvelous, simply marvelous,imo. Tom, I’m in the middle of us I guess at 37 years but the new generation is much more tolerant, imo. I am so tired of hearing how kids these days are rotten. When I hear the good old days I honestly think, yeah if you were white they were good. Yes, I’m white, cracker, whitey, caucasion, white-bread, but I have sense of humor about my color.
Comment by: Stephan
93fran, I don’t find generalizations to be helpful. Some Christians are discriminatory. So are some Athiests, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Zoroastrians. We’re all messed up. Deal with it.
Comment by: Ir
94I would expect atheists to think that just as I expect Christians to think it would be great if Hemant converted to Christianity.
I would be surprised if Hemant converted - I suppose it’s because I think what converts people doesn’t work on atheists as well-read as Hemant. (Well-read, not ‘hard-hearted’)
TXatheist - I’m assuming the ‘imo’ a couple of sentences later applies to the above one also.
Comment by: TXatheist
95No, I’ll stick with logic and statistics to say he’ll remain an atheist and not use my opinion:)
Comment by: TXatheist
96I came up with this idea about a week ago and couldn’t state it, now I will.
I think the issue of this whole project and in the USA in general is that many xians don’t understand atheism(not to be confused with anti-god or anti-religion). Once they do, they can at least understand why we are atheists but not necessarily that they agree with it.
Comment by: Ir
97I agree, TXatheist.
Comment by: Albert
98Ir,
If Hemant converted on the basis of just a few church visits, I think we could rightly question the depth and understanding of his new belief system.
Comment by: Kaori
99Tom in Sacramento,
Yes, I do think Hemant is awesome, and I will genuinely accept if he is content where he is.
And sincerely obey the prompting from God to pray for Hemant and all of us believers, non-believers alike, to get to know who God is.
I don’t say things I don’t mean.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
100Ummm, so many things to comment on. First, TX, Kaori, my point in #91 was simply that, whether Christians or atheists, we are operating, we must operate, from a faith stance. We cannot prove that there is a God; I think He intentionally has protected us, our free will, from that proof. And atheists cannot prove that there is no God. The best we can each do — and I think we’re all doing admirably — is to congenially share our perspectives and, if we have one, our rationale for why we place our faith where we do.
That being the case (that this is about two mutually exclusive faith claims in which we’re all invested to some degree) it just seems strange to me when people write as if they are completely insouciant regarding a position to which they’ve made some sort of committment.
It is why, if I understand Hemant’s original intent correctly, I regard him as an intellectual hero. If he is really as good as I understand him to be, he is taking a remarkably huge step that few, having made that commitment, will dare to take.
Ir, as always, you bring a fascinating perspective. In #95 you doubt Hemant’s probability of conversion. I’m inclined to agree, if only because of the tremendous intellectual inertia a faith committment produces. Further, it is why I posed my questions last night to Jim and Hement. It seems to me that, if Hemant’s original quest was to find out what The Church (Jesus Christ) has to offer that he had not previously explored as an alternative to his present atheism, the turn this has taken — comment on the marketability of modern American churchianity — seems unlikely to provide him an answer to that question.
On the contrary side to your #95, I’m not sure what you are getting at when you say, “what converts people doesn’t work on atheists as well-read as Hemant.” This almost makes it sound as if conversion to Christianity requires checking your brain at the door, or at least operating solely on emotion.
I work at a University and I do not know anyone who is more analytical than I am — they may exist, I just don’t know them ;-) . And if I didn’t find the message of the Bible to be the most coherent explanation that fits all the facts I’d be outta there in a New York minute.
Then, back again to a more agreeable position, TX in #97, I think you’re half right. Many Christians do not understand atheism. (The half that isn’t right: Many atheists don’t understand Christianity, either. The caricatures of Christianity I’ve seen and heard from non-believers over the years…I wouldn’t believe it eitehr.) But I think OTM has some incredible potential for opening eyes on both sides and leading to a more congenial dialog, totally apart from any resultant changes of perspective.
Well, lunch is about over and I need to get back to work.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
101Tom,
I’ll beg to differ. Most atheists are ex-christian in America. It’s then we really get curious and really educate ourselves on both sides of xianity. As far as atheists proving there is no god, you’re right. It’s called proving a negative. I can’t prove something that doesn’t exist….doesn’t exist.
Comment by: Ir
102Hi Tom,
I chose the words ‘well-read’ carefully because I think that’s the issue, not IQ or brain-power.
I know many people have gone from not being a Christian to being one and some of those will say “I used to be an atheist”. However, I’m not aware of atheists with as researched a viewpoint as Hemant’s becoming a Christian. For example, he has read apologetics books such as at least one of Lee Strobel’s and seen the ‘weaknesses’ in them from an atheist point of view. He is probably familiar with all the main reasons why atheists find Christianity unconvincing.
I respect that - but I doubt you have read what atheists have written about why they don’t believe in God and why they don’t find Christianity plausible. I mean, why would you read that stuff? It’s confusing, it’s potentially faith-destroying and it’s emotionally hard to read criticisms of what you hold most dear.
I wasn’t saying Hemant is smarter or more analytical than Christians, but I was saying I don’t think most people who become Christians have read/heard the arguments against God and against Christianity that he has heard.
Of course, this is all from a human point of view. If you believe God is the one who makes it possible for someone to go from not being a Christian to being one by supernatural intervention, then it doesn’t really matter what Hemant has read or what he thinks of it.
Comment by: Kaori
103Tom in Sacramento - #101
Hi, Tom! “whether Christians or atheists, we are operating, we must operate, from a faith stance”
Faith is focusing on not what is seen, but on what is unseen. What is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Cor 4:18)
And I can’t conjure up faith, I believe that even faith is a gift from God. (Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith - Heb 12:2) and it is said faith comes from hearing (Romans 10:7) and my faith comes from hearing the word of God.
It’s crazy, but so, I heard the gospel, I believed, and I spend my time reading the word of God, and as John 1:1 says Word is Jesus to me, so the more I spend time with the Word=Jesus the more I get to know who He is, and my faith increases.
“We cannot prove that there is a God”
True. I can’t prove it. And I don’t need to.
I know He created me, I know He is for me and not against me, and He will never leave me or forsake me, and He has a pretty good track record of taking care of me and delivering me, and that is enough for me.
For others, I can’t prove God exists and convince them. That’s not my job. My role is to pray for those so that His existance becomes evident for them.
Ooops! I am going be late for work! That’s not what He wants!
Comment by: TXatheist
104Kaori,
Do you think it’s possible your god created me to become an atheist?
Comment by: Kaori
105TXatheist,
I don’t think He designed you an atheist. You are an atheist because of your will, I think. I think He wants you to know Him and to have a relationship with Him. That’s my opinion.
Comment by: TXatheist
106Kaori,
I don’t follow. I am trying as I was a xian but I convinced myself of god using the bible and left the same way. How could god make me and then also not make me an atheist? I mean it sounds like he put me together and just left the error(atheist) in there and said “oh well”…next.
Comment by: Kaori
107TXatheist,
I am sorry I am not really good at explaining…
Since you “tried” before, you probably know how when God made human beings humans and God had a perfect relationship and then when sin entered, the relationship was kind of ruined? Well, whether you buy the story or not is another thing…and the free will debate… I will leave it to the ones that are equipped better.
But I can say this. I still don’t think He made you an atheist. He did allow you to have your free will to decide Christianity wasn’t for you. He did not say “oops, error. Next!” I don’t think He says “oops, that was a mistake”.
He still wants you to get to know Who He is.
I think He is still pursuing you.
Comment by: TXatheist
108Thanks Kaori, but I didn’t “try” before. I was a xian and realized it wasn’t true and god is nothing more than a figment of the imagination. I coverted in college when professors are throwing so much material at you and you have to absorb to pass the test. i just swallowed the xian stuff as true with that same unquestioning level. I’m sure you mean well when you say god is pursuing me though.
Comment by: Meredith
109First I am so flattered to hear that I am a “teen”, it’s been about 10 years since I heard that used on my behalf. You sound a lot like I did three years ago, sitting in the rows of church wondering what these people were searching for, and why they were so silly to beleive in this “stuff.” I would also sit and listen as I visited churches with friends and family, and because of my graduate degree in Anthropology, I would sit on the sidelines commenting on what was going on, never really participating, but being a “participant observer.” I commend you for attending church, I commend you for talking to others, and I commend you for being honest. Since I got my master’s in religious studies as a non-believer, I would say, a little research into the history of the church and American denominationalism would fair you well. Understanding the differences in the churches you are attending and moreover what a “fundamentalist” is will help you in your assignment. Also, the message you heard was once of Christianity’s great messages. We are all equal at the Cross, our sins, everything. Chritianity is the great equalizer. How can we throw away that which gives us freedom by attempting to attain it through our good deeds. Why work for a gift that has already been given, doesn’t that just nulify the gift. What are we living for and are we living in the Freedom we gain in Christ’s death upon that cross?
Meredith
Comment by: Zamo
110Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 1:26-31