Posted by Jim Henderson on: 02.21.2006 /
In the comments to Convert Hemant No - Convert Others Sure
Seeker wrote:
At the very least, we all expect that you would be overjoyed if he became a christian as a result of this experience. I also expect that you are probably having to consciously restrain your evangelical impulses so that you DON’T evangelize him, but stay true to your initial purpose.
I think that you are going to have to continually reaffirm your committment to your information-gathering mission, and discipline yourselves NOT to abuse your pet atheist (i say that with humorous affection) by overtly or subtly trying to manipulate him or preach to him.
I think that if you show him respect, as he is showing you, and continue to do so, we will all learn very much.
itlalics mine ===================================================
I would like to hear from 1)Atheists/unbelievers 2) Christians-What you hear seeker saying
please lets not jump on seeker for the “pet atheist” comment, it was meant in jest - besides that - what else do you see?
Comment by: Mark
1As social beings we like it when someone agrees with us and in a topic like religion there are ways to come across with your message in a subtle manner. If someone becomes an (a)theist then we feel a sense of belonging or connection to that person.
Comment by: skikid
2I am responding to this comment through the lense of my own experiences and not trying to state what I think the intentions of the author are here.
What I see and relate to here is distrust. I dont like to admit this but I do not trust people who are labled (for whatever reason) as evanglical or even christian. I guess I have been on the otherside of enough well intentioned attempts to show me “the light” and I have always felt like they were fake… I felt judged. I never felt accepted. They always put me on the defensive and made me very uncomfortable.
So when for whatever reason someone is labled as and Evangelical Christian I: a) look for the nearest exit and b)assume that who I am is not OK with them and that they want to change me.
Sorry this got a bit long and maybe a bit too honest. I do want to point out that I have felt very respected here and am impressed with the dialogue on this site.
Comment by: Stephan
3skikid, the great thing about the way Jesus lived is that He accepted people as they were. He was raked over the coals by the religious elite of His day for fraternizing with “sinners”. As an evangelical Christian, let me say that I accept you for who you are. God loves you, and who am I to argue with Him.
Comment by: Pam
4I think Seeker makes a valid point. I don’t know about the motives or need for restraint from evangelical impulses. Jim is representing OTM so he can answer that if he wants.
Seeker, from my perspective, brings to the light the tension that often occurs when a bible-thumping believer has contact with someone who is not Christian. Many evangelicals are trained from the pulpit Sunday after Sunday to be prepared to give an answer, to seek out the lost, be a light to the world, etc…relationships can appear genuine for one thing but below the surface there is quite possible a hidden agenda, like saving the soul of the person.
I personally am not against soul saving. I do protest manipulation or ingenuine relationships that have that bait and switch thing going on.
Hemant is quite brave (or was just drunk or something) to put his soul on bid at ebay not knowing who would come along. It was like hitchhiking and who knows who it is that will give you a ride or if they’ll take you where you really want to go.
I think Hemant scored a safe ride that will respect his journey and where he wants to go.
Comment by: r10b
5If I were Hemant I’d take more offense at being the object of someone’s “information-gathering mission” than being the object of someone’s soul-winning mission. That said, I’m here as information-gatherer not a soul-winner because, as Seeker may be hinting, evangelization requires real interaction, not cyber interaction. The best we can do during this excellent experiment is to gain understanding of the views others hold and diffuse our own tendency to objectify them. If apologetics is pre-evangelism, then respect and understanding is pre-apologetics and therefore foundational.
Comment by: skikid
6r10b~
Why would you “take more offense at being the object of someone’s “information-gathering mission” than being the object of someone’s soul-winning mission”? I am not sure if I agree or not.
Comment by: Rick
7My understanding of what seeker said is - To get an honest opinion about Hemant’s church visits, it would be best if he goes in with a clean slate to every church. If you send him in with expectations, its almost like you have already decided what you want to hear.
Comment by: Jonny
8this bit really stood out for me: “discipline yourselves NOT to abuse”. The “discipline” particuarly struck a cord. But the post also takes on extra significance as I was ‘evangelised’ yesturday, it started with “do you want a free bible” and ended up in a rant. Dispite repeated try to convice ‘the evangeliser’ that he was actually (to coin a phrase) “preaching to the converted” - I still got a good ear bashing from him. Very strange situation, I did feel slightly abused. It was as if ‘the evangeliser’ was trying to win an argument that wasn’t there, or convince me of how much he knew, or something.
Comment by: Ir
9I think seeker was responding to this apparent dilemma: your ministry wants to help people to become followers of Jesus, yet that is not the goal of what you are currently doing with Hemant.
This invites the question: is this because you don’t care whether Hemant becomes a follower of Jesus, even though you would like other people to?
Seeker in effect answers this question with no, sharing his/her opinion that you would be overjoyed if Hemant became a follower of Jesus. Seeker added “through this experience” but I personally think your joy would be equal whether it happened through this experience or any other way. Because, if your joy would be greater if it were to happen through this experience, I think that has to mean you do have unstated hopes that this process will lead to his becoming one, even though it’s not a stated goal. Which in turn means that you do have a hidden agenda in this information-gathering process of facilitating him becoming a follower of Jesus through it. And I would rather give you the benefit of the doubt and believe what you write, which is that you don’t have such an agenda. I think it’s quite possible to want someone to become a Jesus follower and to accept that God might choose to bring that about without using you directly.
In fact, seeker is of the opinion that you so much want Hemant to become one that it is probably hard for you to resist pushing him to become one in some way or other.
I know that there are situations where we really want something for someone else and we want to try to push them into it, yet we believe that pushing them would be counterproductive, so we try to hold off pushing, even though it’s hard. I think this is what seeker is referring to by the comment about your “evangelical impulses”. In the specific case of Hemant, I wouldn’t have thought that you were having a difficult time withholding yourself from any particular behavior because by now you would have already changed your behavior towards all non-Christians in accordance with what changes you’d like to see other Christians make in theirs. If there was a time where you had to work hard to restrain yourself from behaving in particular (”pushy”, “manipulative”)ways towards non-Christians, it was probably when you first realized how counterproductive such behavior could be. Which was probably what led to you starting this ministry. So, seeker may be thinking you’re going through some “behavior restraining” that you’ve already been though.
I think seeker approves of your choice not to try to push Hemant into becoming a Jesus follower.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
10Ir
you got it
Comment by: Julie
11what I take from seekers comments is this: much evangelism feels like abuse.
that breaks my heart, for all those who so earnestly want to help people, but even more so, for all those who would be helped…that anyone would feel abused by a Christ follower is a tragedy.
Comment by: Ir
12I wonder how most Christians would feel in the following situation: an atheist aquaintance invites them to an atheist meeting where Christianity is likely to be sharply criticized. Christianity and/or Christians may even be mocked and laughed at in the meeting.
The Christian politely declines, but the acquaintance keeps asking. After all, from the atheist’s point of view, it would be far better for the Christian to be ‘undeluded’ and shown that their faith is in error. The atheist feels that the only way to be a true friend to the Christian is to make every effort to deconvert them.
I think at some point most Christians in this situation would get annoyed and may even begin to feel abused.
(This is hypothetical to make a point; I’m not trying to suggest that all or even most atheists are necessarily that pushy or that atheist meetings are as I depicted)
Comment by: ike
13IR said: “Which in turn means that you do have a hidden agenda in this information-gathering process of facilitating him becoming a follower of Jesus through it.”
I disagree with this statement, and want to remind IR to read the ebay sale that was posted before the purchase by OTB. I don’t think that OTB is trying to convince Hermant to do anything that he hadn’t already agreed to do as part of the sale.
Do not forget that this is also an information collection process for Hermant also. If there were other stipulations to the sale and services that Hermant contracted to deliver, I don’t think that OTB has crossed boundaries that have gone against Hermant’s freewill.
When I invite someone to join me in worshiping or studying at my church, my part of the job is done. I then pray for God to do the rest. Secretly, I had been praying for the person before I ever asked them to join me.
This is how I started going to church. A friend simply invited me, and said nothing more to me about it even after I decided to attend.
When I read Hermant’s ebay auction, I saw someone asking for someone to ask them to attend church somewhere, anywhere, for $10 per hour.
The one thing I would like to share with Hermant, regardless of what he decides to do (before, during and after the process is done) I will be praying for him. He will never know me, I will not say anymore to “convince” or “persuade”. I don’t have to.
Comment by: Ir
14Ike, I’m curious - why do you want Hemant to know you’re praying for him?
Also, to clarify because perhaps I was unclear: After what you quoted, I then went on to say “I would rather give you [OTM] the benefit of the doubt and believe what you write, which is that you don’t have such an [hidden] agenda.”
Comment by: Siamang
15Ir,
Atheists have meetings?
LOL!
That’s a joke. I am aware of meetings of various groups, atheists, skeptics, brights, etc.
I’ve never been to one, and I’m not sure I ever will. I don’t like club meetings. There’s a social dynamic that always rubs me the wrong way.
Comment by: Siamang
16I think that OTM’s agenda is pretty clear, and not hidden at all. It’s not to reach out to atheists. Its agenda is to reach out to *Christians* and help them better reach out to the people in their lives who haven’t found Christianity.
Converting atheists one at a time, through ebay auctions is not the mission of Off The Map.
Comment by: ike
17IR,
To answer your question: because he chose to let me know what he was doing.
What difference does it make to you, whether OTM has an agenda or purpose in this? They have paid for it.
Comment by: Ir
18IR,
To answer your question: because he chose to let me know what he was doing.
Fair enough.
What difference does it make to you, whether OTM has an agenda or purpose in this? They have paid for it.
I don’t know what difference it makes to me; I would like to think OTM is telling the truth and if they are, they have no hidden agenda.
Comment by: Beta
19As an agnostic I appreciate OTM’s commitment to an open-ended investigation into belief and faith. I suspect that one would have to look far-and-wide to find Americans deeply offended by this approach. It would appear to me that virtually all of the current tension is over public space. It was my own choice to engage in this discussion and I thank OTM for providing a private place to do so. When I have not made that decision and am engaged nonetheless I find myself resentful.
In the comments above Ir describes a hypothetical situation in which Christians might find themselves uncomfortable. I think evangelical Christians often underestimate the extent to which they impose upon non-believers. The current debate about The Pledge of Allegience is illustrative. The debate is often framed by evangelicals as one of Christianity vs. Atheism. Instead the true debate is about whether it is appropriate to expect schoolchildren to make a statement of religious faith at the start of each school day. If the phrase read ‘under no god’ I believe (perhaps naively) that most church-state groups (including the ACLU) would be similarly uncomfortable, I know I would. Please understand that I am NOT trying to start flame war over The Pledge or any specific issue.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
20To reiterate
OTM hired Hemant (or won the bid).
I flew to Chicago to meet Hemant face to face since if I were in his shoes I would want to know how potentially weird the person hiring me for such an unusual task would be.
We negotitated a modified version of his (overly generous) offer and together came to an agreement that satisfied both of our agendas( btw someone should ask Hemant about his agenda :-)
Our agreement is that Hemant will attend anywhere from 10-15 churches and fill out the survey which is posted for all to see on our blog (use it with your friends- modify - do whatever with it).
I gave him my word that I would do my best to “protect him” from meanspirited Christians (sorry but we do have them among us) and had no intention of using this approach to convert him.
I told him (jokingly) if he did decide to convert during this process it would have to be “off the clock”
That is our thing
Comment by: Siamang
21I forsee another venture for you, Jim.
Off The Clock Ministry!
;-)
Comment by: seeker
22Interesting to see how much people read into what I said - sometimes a lot more or other than what I intended. But that’s fine with me. Needless to say, I wasn’t accusing OTM of anything, just wondering aloud if the same hyper-evangelistic spirit that we see in many churches lurks behind what we see, or if they purosely resist that training, if they have that impulse at all, to reach other ends, like purely gathering information.
But what about doing the same with a gay person? Would that be possible? Or informative? There might be a lot more complicating factors there.
Comment by: Ir
23Hi seeker,
I’m glad you came back to read the comments and respond.
For all I know, Hemant might be gay. I’m not aware that he’s disclosed his sexual orientation.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
24I think that, in our daily lives, those who follow Christ are, by definition, following an evangelistic agenda. BUT there is no indication that the kind of Bible-bashing and annoying pestering and rude behavior (remember, love is NEVER rude) are biblically defensible methods. For me, in my own personal life, I don’t proselytize that way and don’t think it’s biblical.
I’d much rather be in a relationship with someone where they can see it in me rather than hear it shouted. Because, let’s face it, if Jesus is who He says He is, and if the Bible is true, then He’s going to live in me, and if you know me and we hang out together, you’ll see that. I don’t have to shout scripture or pester strangers on a street corner or anything wierd like that.
Siamang… Off The Clock ministries… that is a hoot!
And Hemant, since the topic has come up, I would be curious to know what your “agenda” is.
And Beta, your point is well-taken. I kinda hope that Jim Dobson is reading these posts. ;-)
Comment by: ike
25I’m going to skip church this Sunday and be an Atheist for a day. I am so excited.
I typically spend three hours a week interacting with my church in various forums with the agenda of worship, praising, and Bible study. Not this Sunday. This Sunday, is about me!
I am going to easily replace my worship, praise, and Bible study time with some thing that “an Atheist wouldn’t be doing during that time”. It will be the easiest thing that I will not do as a Christian, eh, I mean an Atheist.
The three hours will probably consist of television programming, educational of course, and napping. I will do this with, or without, my children and wife.
Wish me luck. I’ll let you know how this new experience feels. In exchange, I will give all of the money I may make on that day to my church.
;)
Comment by: Siamang
26Good one, Ike.
It reminds me of a joke I read that was like a fake news headline:
“15,000 Atheists riot over blasphemy, apparantly a blank sheet of paper was found on a cartoonist’s desk.”
Comment by: ike
27Siamang,
Thanks for seeing the humor in that, and for not burning my car in protest.
:)
Comment by: Siamang
28I burned your nonexistant car.
I don’t believe you ever had a car.
;-)
Comment by: Mark
29Ike,
I might suggest something I routinely do and you decide of course if you want to. My wife gets to sleep in on Sunday and I entertain our 2 year old. I read the paper before little guy wakes up and then make breakfast, usually pancakes for all of us. Then we go to church. Not any church but Universal Unitarian. You won’t need a suit or bible but you may/may not enjoy. I guarantee it will be different.
Comment by: Siamang
30Mark, you go to UU? I’ve thought about going there. But I decided against it. There’s just something in me about groups/clubs/gatherings. I just can’t seem to do it.
While we’re on jokes, did you hear about what happens to Unitarian Universalists when they die?
They go to a place where they learn about Heaven.
;-)
Comment by: Mark
31Yes, longggg story short. I told my wife no way to Catholicism and we agreed on Unitarianism. What does Siamang stand for? It’s time to read the paper and the 2 year old will be up soon… then time to play Daddy:)