This diablog has given me the extra motivation to bring a few aethists to our church. SHHH!
This diablog also hooked me up with a major newspaper interview. I will either quote, misquoted or not quoted.
And finally I have to admit, I am quite impressed (and encouraged) with how open Christians and Aetheists can be with one another. I often hear of how intolerant Christians are, so I am glad to see that, for the most part their is a tolerance.
I hope this diablog can continue after the “experiment” is over. And no I am not calling Hemant a lab rat…
I’m hopeful that we can continue this awesome conversation, too. I haven’t learned too much, since I’ve had pretty respectful and enjoyable conversations with atheists and agnostics over the years, but I’m ECSTATIC that I can be part of a process that shows people that Christians can be tolerant with people whose views differ so sharply. (look up the original meaning of the word… yes we can think we’re right and still be tolerant, you can’t be tolerant unless you DO think you’re right, in a way) The dialogue is good all-around.
I just hope the trolls don’t come out (some of which have plastic fish on their mini-vans and SUVs…).
What I have learned: I’ve been reminded that I can’t assume my intentions are as clear to everyone else as they are to me! :)
I’m very happy to see atheists and Christians posting here together, to each other. I have familiarity with a few other discussion places on the Internet where both post, but in those places the rules and/or the management and/or the content cause the environment to be much more comfortable for one group than the other. To achieve a more level playing field, the people active/managing those sites would need to do what OTM is doing here: be especially respectful and welcoming to those who don’t share their worldview and don’t let those who presume upon sharing the management’s worldview get away with anything :).
In general I find I have the best dialog with people who can accept me as I am and are interested to hear what I think, even when they disagree with me in various ways. In “real life” and on the Internet.
This has been really neat… to see that respect and converation is possible. I think that my misconcesptions have been challenged. I almost want to break out of my safe little protestant world and see what a non-denomination chruch is like for no other reason than just to break down my own prejudices further.
If nothing else, it has given me a great springboard to thing through what people experience when coming into our community.
Honestly, it has also given me a different perspective on Atheism. I think that I would have classified Atheists in the same category as Fundamentalists (only on polar spectrums) prior to this dialogue. It has opened my eyes to a group of people who are very opened-minded and yet have some very specific reasons for their lack of belief. I respect that - even though I have some very specific reasons for my belief.
Dean, like Christians and most groups there are extreme atheists who will accept no other view point, but I think if you meet enough of us to get a sense that for the most part atheists are a thoughtful accepting lot. I think you also be surprised at just how much we know about Christianity, not to mention other religions. Before I gave up religion I spent several years exploring it in attempt to understand it, and possibly discover an aspect of it that would keep me in the fold. My family was Southern Baptist so I naturally started there but I sampled Weslyans, Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, Pentacostal, Free Will Baptist, and a few others. This exploration included reading the Bible cover to cover (in two different translations), I also read the Apocryphal books, the Talmud, and the book of Mormon. Then I read the Qu’ran, and several texts on the various forms of Buddhism. When none of that satisfied me I read up on Wicca, Druidism and other “New Age” practices. In the end I found that science and skepticism was the best place for me. Over the years I’ve discussed this with many other atheists and my path was not all that unusual, scratch the surface of many an atheist and you’ll find an amateur biblical scholar, and as long as you don’t make an overt attempt to convert us many of us will sit and discuss this stuff all day.
Yep. A lot of us atheists think about this stuff a lot.
I think it has more to do with an individual’s personality than anything else. I’m a stickler, and anytime I hear an outrageous story I check Snopes right away.
I am utterly fascinated by the supernatural. Angels, visions, UFO’s, Bermuda Triangle, etc. I always was.
So when I became an adult I sought out these things, only to be disappointed by charlatans, gullible starry-eyed new-agers, and the honestly faithful who nevertheless had no understanding of why I couldn’t see what they saw.
I’ve been called amoral because I simply haven’t found what they’ve found. According to them, I’ve turned my back on God, denied Him, put myself above Him, etc.
I said on another thread that I’m a stickler, and that might be to my woe. But I will never pass a beautiful mountain or rock and start praying to it.
I refuse to bow to any man-made image of God until it proves its divinity. And I can only hope that if a real God exists, this glorifies Him in some way.
I think the reason that I appreciate this dialogue so much is that there is a sense that none of us have finished our journey of seeking. I know that I certainly have not gotten everything figured out and I get that same sense from most of the atheists that I am reading in here. I think we have that in common - and common ground is a good thing.
Siamang, I have especially enjoyed your comments throughout the blog. No pulling punches, yet open-minded. Your last paragraph in the comment above represents that well. I really appreciate that. If you ever wanted to go on a Hemant-like journey, you are right next to one of my favorite churches in the country. It’s called Mosaic. There are several locations in L.A. but one meets in a club downtown. Very out of the box and all shapes and sizes are welcomed.
I’m just glad to have found out that a website like this existed. Because of the behavior of some Christians, I hesitate to call myself one, because of the label of judgement, closemindedness, and illogic that goes along with it. My hope is that the goal of this site, “helping Christians be normal” will succeed. While I know that most have good intentions, eventually, everyone needs to realize that shoving Jesus down someone’s throat is totally counterproductive.
For me its that atheists come across to me as a people of faith as much as theists do, we all believe - challenge for me is whether i am a person of good faith :)
I’ve learned that it’s dangerous to make assumptions, and that it is important to remind yourself to be respectful, regardless of how you react to another persons views.
As a Xian I’m learning that I need to be able to give account for what I believe, it is not nearly enough to just believe because someone else said it.
I’ve enjoyed the intelligence of most of the “post”ers and have regretted the comments by Xian “posers” & imposters.
Saimang said, “I refuse to bow to any man-made image of God until it proves its divinity. And I can only hope that if a real God exists, this glorifies Him in some way.” Me too. And to continue the thought I would add (in the words of mid 90’s So-Cal hardcore band FOCUSED) “I refuse to bow to a mindless system. Why would I contribute to the absence of my identity”.
The only difference I see between Hement, Saimang, others, and myself is that our search has taken us in different directions.
I’m loving it. It is making me aware of the vocabularies we use and how the meanings change in translation. Usually, those changes oftentimes result in hurt feelings on the other side.
One other thing this whole dialogue has impacted with is to check my internal mirrors before pulling out into dialogue traffic… often its stopped me pulling out into an oncoming truck of hypocrisy/pride/overreaction. Its harder to generous and gracious but save me being splattered all over the highway
I keep encountering atheists who demonstrate to me that it is wrong for Christians to categorize people. “Atheist” can no longer mean someone I can write off as closed minded and comparatively acidic and negative. Cully in #7 above is newly added to the list of atheists whose posts get extra attention from me due to the vulnerability and honesty modeled there.
I hope similar learning is occurring on the opposite side of the diablog. I sense that it is, for many people. -Rick L in TX
Discussions like this are critically important to understanding each other and why we have differing worldviews. Such “diablogs” were impossible just a few decades ago. Understanding each other helps us to live in community and avoids more serious forms of confrontation. Heck, if nothing else, this is a good way to kill time until our inevitable death :)
I’ve been following Hemant’s story since e-bay. I was intrigued with his openness and his interest in the idea that there could be a God. I actually thought that the purpose here was for Hemant to find God and for me to witness it or in some way play a part in it.
However, God has used this situation to teach me. Even as a Christian I have not had a heart or understanding of relating to “normal” people; it was about converting them (which isn’t my job). I’m so excited about the way God is changing my perspective and life through this dialogue.
I have really enjoyed reading this convrsation. I’ve grown up in the church and have seen many kinds of christians. Admittedly, there are some pretty intollerant ones in the mix, but if we follow Jesus’s example, we can’t help but be loving, accepting, and kind to anyone we meet. No one is perfect, so why hold ourselves as higher than everyone else. Thanks for starting this blog.
In Christ,
Ixthus
Comment by: Mark
1 02/23/06 9:53 AM | Comment Link |I must admit I am amazed at the acceptance of atheists by the christians.
Respectfully,
TXatheist-Mark
Comment by: David Buckham in St. Petersburg, Florida
2 02/23/06 10:33 AM | Comment Link |This diablog has given me the extra motivation to bring a few aethists to our church. SHHH!
This diablog also hooked me up with a major newspaper interview. I will either quote, misquoted or not quoted.
And finally I have to admit, I am quite impressed (and encouraged) with how open Christians and Aetheists can be with one another. I often hear of how intolerant Christians are, so I am glad to see that, for the most part their is a tolerance.
I hope this diablog can continue after the “experiment” is over. And no I am not calling Hemant a lab rat…
all about Christ,
David
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
3 02/23/06 10:42 AM | Comment Link |I’m hopeful that we can continue this awesome conversation, too. I haven’t learned too much, since I’ve had pretty respectful and enjoyable conversations with atheists and agnostics over the years, but I’m ECSTATIC that I can be part of a process that shows people that Christians can be tolerant with people whose views differ so sharply. (look up the original meaning of the word… yes we can think we’re right and still be tolerant, you can’t be tolerant unless you DO think you’re right, in a way) The dialogue is good all-around.
I just hope the trolls don’t come out (some of which have plastic fish on their mini-vans and SUVs…).
Comment by: Ir
4 02/23/06 11:33 AM | Comment Link |What I have learned: I’ve been reminded that I can’t assume my intentions are as clear to everyone else as they are to me! :)
I’m very happy to see atheists and Christians posting here together, to each other. I have familiarity with a few other discussion places on the Internet where both post, but in those places the rules and/or the management and/or the content cause the environment to be much more comfortable for one group than the other. To achieve a more level playing field, the people active/managing those sites would need to do what OTM is doing here: be especially respectful and welcoming to those who don’t share their worldview and don’t let those who presume upon sharing the management’s worldview get away with anything :).
In general I find I have the best dialog with people who can accept me as I am and are interested to hear what I think, even when they disagree with me in various ways. In “real life” and on the Internet.
Comment by: skikid
5 02/23/06 12:09 PM | Comment Link |This has been really neat… to see that respect and converation is possible. I think that my misconcesptions have been challenged. I almost want to break out of my safe little protestant world and see what a non-denomination chruch is like for no other reason than just to break down my own prejudices further.
Comment by: Dean
6 02/23/06 4:06 PM | Comment Link |If nothing else, it has given me a great springboard to thing through what people experience when coming into our community.
Honestly, it has also given me a different perspective on Atheism. I think that I would have classified Atheists in the same category as Fundamentalists (only on polar spectrums) prior to this dialogue. It has opened my eyes to a group of people who are very opened-minded and yet have some very specific reasons for their lack of belief. I respect that - even though I have some very specific reasons for my belief.
Comment by: Cully
7 02/23/06 5:00 PM | Comment Link |Dean, like Christians and most groups there are extreme atheists who will accept no other view point, but I think if you meet enough of us to get a sense that for the most part atheists are a thoughtful accepting lot. I think you also be surprised at just how much we know about Christianity, not to mention other religions. Before I gave up religion I spent several years exploring it in attempt to understand it, and possibly discover an aspect of it that would keep me in the fold. My family was Southern Baptist so I naturally started there but I sampled Weslyans, Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, Pentacostal, Free Will Baptist, and a few others. This exploration included reading the Bible cover to cover (in two different translations), I also read the Apocryphal books, the Talmud, and the book of Mormon. Then I read the Qu’ran, and several texts on the various forms of Buddhism. When none of that satisfied me I read up on Wicca, Druidism and other “New Age” practices. In the end I found that science and skepticism was the best place for me. Over the years I’ve discussed this with many other atheists and my path was not all that unusual, scratch the surface of many an atheist and you’ll find an amateur biblical scholar, and as long as you don’t make an overt attempt to convert us many of us will sit and discuss this stuff all day.
Comment by: Siamang
8 02/23/06 5:55 PM | Comment Link |Dean, thanks for the kind words.
Yep. A lot of us atheists think about this stuff a lot.
I think it has more to do with an individual’s personality than anything else. I’m a stickler, and anytime I hear an outrageous story I check Snopes right away.
I am utterly fascinated by the supernatural. Angels, visions, UFO’s, Bermuda Triangle, etc. I always was.
So when I became an adult I sought out these things, only to be disappointed by charlatans, gullible starry-eyed new-agers, and the honestly faithful who nevertheless had no understanding of why I couldn’t see what they saw.
I’ve been called amoral because I simply haven’t found what they’ve found. According to them, I’ve turned my back on God, denied Him, put myself above Him, etc.
I said on another thread that I’m a stickler, and that might be to my woe. But I will never pass a beautiful mountain or rock and start praying to it.
I refuse to bow to any man-made image of God until it proves its divinity. And I can only hope that if a real God exists, this glorifies Him in some way.
Comment by: Dean
9 02/23/06 7:51 PM | Comment Link |Cully and Siamang,
I think the reason that I appreciate this dialogue so much is that there is a sense that none of us have finished our journey of seeking. I know that I certainly have not gotten everything figured out and I get that same sense from most of the atheists that I am reading in here. I think we have that in common - and common ground is a good thing.
Siamang, I have especially enjoyed your comments throughout the blog. No pulling punches, yet open-minded. Your last paragraph in the comment above represents that well. I really appreciate that. If you ever wanted to go on a Hemant-like journey, you are right next to one of my favorite churches in the country. It’s called Mosaic. There are several locations in L.A. but one meets in a club downtown. Very out of the box and all shapes and sizes are welcomed.
Comment by: Lindsay
10 02/23/06 8:26 PM | Comment Link |I’m just glad to have found out that a website like this existed. Because of the behavior of some Christians, I hesitate to call myself one, because of the label of judgement, closemindedness, and illogic that goes along with it. My hope is that the goal of this site, “helping Christians be normal” will succeed. While I know that most have good intentions, eventually, everyone needs to realize that shoving Jesus down someone’s throat is totally counterproductive.
Comment by: Paul
11 02/24/06 1:16 AM | Comment Link |For me its that atheists come across to me as a people of faith as much as theists do, we all believe - challenge for me is whether i am a person of good faith :)
Comment by: KSG
12 02/24/06 8:23 AM | Comment Link |I’ve learned that it’s dangerous to make assumptions, and that it is important to remind yourself to be respectful, regardless of how you react to another persons views.
As a Xian I’m learning that I need to be able to give account for what I believe, it is not nearly enough to just believe because someone else said it.
I’ve enjoyed the intelligence of most of the “post”ers and have regretted the comments by Xian “posers” & imposters.
Saimang said, “I refuse to bow to any man-made image of God until it proves its divinity. And I can only hope that if a real God exists, this glorifies Him in some way.” Me too. And to continue the thought I would add (in the words of mid 90’s So-Cal hardcore band FOCUSED) “I refuse to bow to a mindless system. Why would I contribute to the absence of my identity”.
The only difference I see between Hement, Saimang, others, and myself is that our search has taken us in different directions.
Comment by: Bob
13 02/24/06 9:45 AM | Comment Link |I’m loving it. It is making me aware of the vocabularies we use and how the meanings change in translation. Usually, those changes oftentimes result in hurt feelings on the other side.
Comment by: Siamang
14 02/24/06 11:43 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for the kind thoughts, everyone.
This is a journey of understanding that we all are on. Bravo to Off the Map for building a place for this unique dialogue.
Comment by: Paul
15 02/24/06 11:20 PM | Comment Link |One other thing this whole dialogue has impacted with is to check my internal mirrors before pulling out into dialogue traffic… often its stopped me pulling out into an oncoming truck of hypocrisy/pride/overreaction. Its harder to generous and gracious but save me being splattered all over the highway
Comment by: Rick L in TX
16 02/25/06 7:19 AM | Comment Link |I keep encountering atheists who demonstrate to me that it is wrong for Christians to categorize people. “Atheist” can no longer mean someone I can write off as closed minded and comparatively acidic and negative. Cully in #7 above is newly added to the list of atheists whose posts get extra attention from me due to the vulnerability and honesty modeled there.
I hope similar learning is occurring on the opposite side of the diablog. I sense that it is, for many people. -Rick L in TX
Comment by: smt
17 02/27/06 2:52 PM | Comment Link |Discussions like this are critically important to understanding each other and why we have differing worldviews. Such “diablogs” were impossible just a few decades ago. Understanding each other helps us to live in community and avoids more serious forms of confrontation. Heck, if nothing else, this is a good way to kill time until our inevitable death :)
Comment by: Meagan
18 02/27/06 6:32 PM | Comment Link |I’ve been following Hemant’s story since e-bay. I was intrigued with his openness and his interest in the idea that there could be a God. I actually thought that the purpose here was for Hemant to find God and for me to witness it or in some way play a part in it.
However, God has used this situation to teach me. Even as a Christian I have not had a heart or understanding of relating to “normal” people; it was about converting them (which isn’t my job). I’m so excited about the way God is changing my perspective and life through this dialogue.
Comment by: ixthus
19 04/11/07 7:05 AM | Comment Link |I have really enjoyed reading this convrsation. I’ve grown up in the church and have seen many kinds of christians. Admittedly, there are some pretty intollerant ones in the mix, but if we follow Jesus’s example, we can’t help but be loving, accepting, and kind to anyone we meet. No one is perfect, so why hold ourselves as higher than everyone else. Thanks for starting this blog.
In Christ,
Ixthus