Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 02.26.2006 /
This morning, I went to Parkview Christian Church (not to be confused with Park Community Church from last week) which happens to be about four meters from where I grew up. Though I never really knew about it until recently. According to Outreach Magazine (May/June, 2004), it is #94 of the 100 fastest growing churches in America. It has a large budget as well and a rapidly growing membership. They are also moving into a new building in the coming weeks, so this week’s sermon dealt with how the move would impact the church’s community– in both good and bad ways. I don’t think I experienced a true “sermon” in this sense, but it did send a positive message about what the church was doing.
I was a bit curious if my attending would be any different this week, because I had mentioned I would be going to this church earlier in the week (my bad). Thankfully, I still felt like I was an outsider observing everything. The only exception to this was someone shaking my hand early in the service, as I sat near the back. We made eye contact– I assumed it was another greeter, like the others I had met when I entered the building. A few seconds later, the same man came back near me, and asked, “Are you Hemant?” (That was strange.) But he added, “I’m Pastor Tim [Harlow].” He said he was glad to see me there, and that was that. Quick, friendly, not a problem. I wondered how he knew it was me… then again, I guess it’s not that hard to spot a brown person sitting in a Christian church near the back by himself… :)
I’ll get the negative out of the way because the points were minor and they were miniscule compared to the things I liked. I did have issues with some things mentioned in the brochure:
1) There is a part about scheduling Baptism. The first line reads: “If God is leading you toward this next step of obedience…” Which I hope just sounds awkward, instead of actually meaning that. Why would anyone simply want to be obedient? As an Atheist, it’s so important to question what you see and hear… you cannot take anything simply based on who says it, unless they give you a reason for it. So to tell me to be obedient to anyone can be a scary thought, because obedience without questioning (which I think a lot of religions ask for) can lead to bad things… I know people will respond that Christians also question things, but I would counter that Atheists have questioned the Bible on this page and my own a lot more than the religious people.
2) There was a call for people to bring the church “your tired, poor, ‘forgotten on a shelf’ Bibles!” They would fix these and ship them to “hungry, new Christians around the world.” (Just to put it out there, I’ve never been a fan of missionaries that do good things for people… as long as they believe in Christ. If you want to build houses, build houses and leave. That’s a wonderful thing. But don’t force your religion onto other peoples’ cultures.) Anyway, that seems contradictory to me. Why would people have so many versions of a supposedly sacred book? I understand receiving them as gifts… but why keep so many when you don’t use them?
One more (minor, petty) thing that bothered me:
The band that I watched was, like the others, great. Though some of the lyrics were questionable: “You’re gonna have to serve somebody. it may be the devil; it may be the lord.” Really? So, you’re either with them or you’re evil? That whole mentality is why religion has such negative connotations in my Atheist community. And I realize it’s just a song, but the message stuck out at me because I’m not serving the lord… so what does that make me? Not welcome, that’s for sure… at least not initially. But it got much better later.
What I enjoyed about Pastor Tim’s sermon was that, while he acknowledged that the church was growing quickly, he spent a good deal of time addressing the problems that come with rapid church growth, including losing the effectiveness of small groups. I was thinking you may also lose the sense of uniqueness you feel in a church of small size. However, a new church for them also meant new people taking on leadership roles and volunteering to help out. Also, new people– more people– would be able to hear the word of god. It was interesting hearing a take on a “small” church becoming a mega-church. Pastor Tim made a good point about separating the Biblical positive qualities of the church with societal pressures of a large church. They’re not always the same. I thought the rest of his sermon was well-choreographed (I mean that in a good way) and entertaining to hear. I’d be interested in hearing him give a sermon specifically on the Bible, which he just couldn’t do today. But it’s hard to not enjoy someone who managed to throw the words “chick flick,” “Bob Dylan,” “7-Up,” and “Peppermint Patty” into a Sunday morning service.
Which reminds me… there was a motif throughout the church of wanting to “raise an army” of volunteers. I received “Weekend Mobilization Mission Orders” in my seat asking me to help with the move to the new church. There was a sign behind the stage saying “Basic Training”… as I’ve mentioned, the mega-churches as a whole freak me out because they are huge and they can have a lot of (too much?) power (e.g. Supporting the ID movement, Supporting pharmacists who refuse a woman’s birth control prescription, etc.) but to even joke about raising an army is scary. Because these churches usually are.
So this blog is supposed to be about me commenting on whether the church I visited helped me get any closer to believing in God. I think it’s been straying from that at times– my fault as much as anyone’s– but what I’ve been noticing at the past few Christian churches I’ve visited is that building a strong community seems to be more of a focus than “strengthening the faith” of the congregation. Some may say those are two sides of the same coin; others may wish for the churches to be pure Bible-thumping. I do like the community aspect, though. It would make me want to come to church when it’s not a Sunday morning. I still don’t see much reason for needing god in my life, though… not yet.
I’ve also noticed another change. Whenever I used to think of a church, I thought of a boring place that people never looked forward to going to… you’d have to wake up early, put on dressy clothes, listen to a boring sermon… that’s not happening at the places I’ve been to. Is that a recent change? People (and kids) never seem to be complaining, and I can understand why. It’s not such a bad place to be.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
1I want to start this section of comments off with - Hemant, thank you for approaching this task with such sincerity and honesty. Plus you are very thorough in your reporting. You also “own” your own biases when it applies.
All of us at Off The Map are totally enjoying partnering with you on this helpful project.
I have no idea what your fellow athiests might be getting out of this process but I do know that any Christian (leaders especially) with an open heart and mind has been given invaluable insights into the world of those who do not follow Jesus.
Comment by: Katherine
2‘If you want to build houses, build houses and leave. That’s a wonderful thing. But don’t force your religion onto other peoples’ cultures.’
I couldn’t agree more. As a fellow atheist I’m really enjoying reading this, I think you are approaching this respectfully and honestly, and it’s absolutely fascinating.
Comment by: Paul
3I agree with both Jim and Katherine!
It’s clear that you’re doing this without an axe to grind, which as Jim says makes it invaluable to Christians who are willing to listen, and fascinating for a whole host of people.
Comment by: Bob
4So this blog is supposed to be about me commenting on whether the church I visited helped me get any closer to believing in God.
A question for the Christians out there: do you think going to church actually would help Hemant believe in God?
Comment by: Ir
5Hemant, thanks again for your interesting comments. I love how you not only say what you like and dislike, but you try to explain why. Christians have beliefs about what atheists do and don’t like and why they do and don’t like them. If you had simply listed what you did and didn’t like and those lined up with what a Christian expected you to like and not like, the Christian might well conclude that his/her assumptions about the reasons for your likes and dislikes must also correct. Which ain’t necessarily so and which I think is one of the big hindrances to effective dialog between Christians and atheists. Because you are as clear as you can be about the ‘whys’, Christians can learn where their assumptions are wrong and in doing so, come to understand atheists much better (I hope).
Picking up on a few specific things you wrote:
Why would anyone simply want to be obedient? As an Atheist, it’s so important to question what you see and hear… you cannot take anything simply based on who says it, unless they give you a reason for it.
This is a great point — I’m glad you brought it up.
Atheists do make the decision to obey a system of laws or to be under someone’s authority (an employer, say) when they think it’s in their best interests. Sometimes they do so because they agree with the reasoning behind a specific law. At other times they disagree with the reasoning, but in the bigger picture they decide it’s in their best interests not to, say, be put in jail or be fired from their job. An atheist may ask questions up front about an employer’s requirements and will probably find out that if they accept the job they will be expected to do what their employer says. That doesn’t necessarily mean the atheist can’t question it, but it does mean that if the two disagree, keeping the job probably requires the atheist doing what the employer wants even though he/she disagrees. There is a point where a wise atheist realizes they’ve had a final ‘no’ and their choice is to submit or quit.
So, there is a similar dynamic with Christians; they can question; they choose to put themselves under God’s authority; they can question specific things but the result may be ‘no’ is ‘no’ and then all they can do is choose to submit or face the consequences of not submitting. (Can God be negotiated with? I think there are hints in the Bible that He can, sometimes)
But God combines a role like ‘employer/authority figure/law-maker’ with many others in the life of a Christian, such as very close friend and team member. This means a Christian derives pleasure in doing things with and for God; that obeying God is a delight rather than a burden, much of the time. When obeying God is hard or doesn’t seem to make sense, the trust a Christian places in God often leads him/her to obey anyway. (I think that’s the point at which atheists get scared of what belief in God might lead Christians to do)
I’ve never been a fan of missionaries that do good things for people… as long as they believe in Christ. If you want to build houses, build houses and leave. That’s a wonderful thing. But don’t force your religion onto other peoples’ cultures.
Perhaps the following is an over-used, tired, analogy, but it really is why Christians feel compelled to try to share their beliefs: telling Christians not to try to share their beliefs with other people is like asking a doctor not to dispense a medicine which he knows is the only cure for a fatal disease, if only his patients will agree to take it. I suppose the atheist view is that the patients already have medicine as good as anything the doctor can offer; that it’s not true his is better; some atheists may believe his is much worse; and either way, they’d rather see the doctor use his time and energy offering something that his patients really need and really don’t have already.
to even joke about raising an army is scary. Because these churches usually are.
I don’t like the militaristic battle/army/weapons language either. I think it subtly encourages unhelpful associations and ways of thinking, which may lead to unwise behavior.
I’ve also noticed another change. Whenever I used to think of a church, I thought of a boring place that people never looked forward to going to… you’d have to wake up early, put on dressy clothes, listen to a boring sermon… that’s not happening at the places I’ve been to. Is that a recent change? People (and kids) never seem to be complaining, and I can understand why. It’s not such a bad place to be.
The book of Acts depicts Jesus’ first followers as loving to get together; they did it every day. If you believe this, then from the beginning there were Christians who were excited about ‘going to church’.
It seems to me that you understand better now why Christians like to go to church (at least some churches). I’m glad because I love to see Christians and atheists coming to understand each other better.
Comment by: Johnny
6Your comment on how there is lack of emphasis on “strengthening the faith” ought to cause Christians to consider how even to an outsider,if our dealings with God are through faith, this ought to be an important part of the teaching in churches. It certainly is what made Christ amazed, when he met people with great faith.
I hope every church in Chicago prepares to meet you by doing what they ought to do as taught in our Bibles. It is sad how many churches do not follow all their principles from the Book they profess to believe in.
Comment by: Terri
7A question for the Christians out there: do you think going to church actually would help Hemant believe in God?
It worked for me, but I had been completely unchurched and believed in a God—I just didn’t know the Jesus part until someone invited me to church at age 36. The “good news” message was presented clearly during a service, and less than two months after my first visit, I became a follower of Jesus. However, I think that Hemant has heard the message but doesn’t believe. I had also probably heard it before without believing, and I can’t account for how it began to come alive for me in a church service.
Just a comment on baptism: Being obedient was secondary in getting baptized for me, as I was so hungry to do it. That desire just overwhelmed me.
Another comment to add to Ir’s good points above is that the Bible includes the ‘parting words’ of Jesus and a call to the “great commission”: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20)
As a missionary, I can’t explain how or why I have an overwhelming love and compassion and calling to serve a particular people group other than that God has made me that way. And, back to obedience, it would feel disobedient to not do as Jesus commands in the passage above. I also can’t emphasize enough how long the missionaries I know work at being culturally appropriate and simply befriending people and equipping people with practical resources. Developing loving relationships is the primary means of sharing the Gospel of Jesus—through action rather than forced belief sharing.
Before becoming a Christian I may have sided more with those who think ‘there are enough needy people in your own backyard, why not help them.’ Being Christian is local and global, and going and sharing (or staying and sending/receiving) are biblical roles for all Christians.
As I prepare to leave, I can totally understand the thoughts and concerns of my non-believing friends and family. It all appears a little wacky to me sometimes, but God has made it so real to ME that I can’t explain away anyone else’s honest questioning–quite the contrary, I appreciate it as each new step of faith is a time to question and affirm my own beliefs and how I am or am not being like Jesus.
Thanks for sharing this journey so openly and respectfully Hemant.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
8I’ve never been a fan of missionaries that do good things for people… as long as they believe in Christ. If you want to build houses, build houses and leave. That’s a wonderful thing. But don’t force your religion onto other peoples’ cultures.
I’ve encountered this misunderstanding before among my atheist friends. I just wanted to clarify that it’s very rare to find a missionary who will only help people if they accept Christ. Most missionaries who focus on things like building houses, or offering medical care or similar services, offer their help indiscriminately, to Christians and non-Christians alike.
Yes, they also offer spiritual help as well. But I’ve never known a missionary to deny help to someone if they refuse to become a Christian. The decision to become a Christian is freely made after an open and non-coercive invitation by the missionaries.
For the most part, forced conversions (an evil and contradictory thing in almost anyone’s eyes, Christian or Atheist) went out with the decline of colonialism last century. But forced conversions are not at all the same thing as the free exchange of ideas between peoples of different cultures, which is what most missionaries today are engaged in. (I say “most” because I can’t claim that there might not be a small handful of bad examples you could find even today.)
Anyhow, thanks for your honest comments Hemant. And thanks for taking the time to engage in this project. I’ve found your insights extremely enlightening and enjoyable to read.
Peace,
-Mike Clawson
Comment by: Ir
9The “good news” message was presented clearly during a service, and less than two months after my first visit, I became a follower of Jesus. However, I think that Hemant has heard the message but doesn’t believe.
Hemant, have you heard the message?
Comment by: Ir
10[Repost of the above to clarify that it began with a quote]
Terri wrote:
“The “good news” message was presented clearly during a service, and less than two months after my first visit, I became a follower of Jesus. However, I think that Hemant has heard the message but doesn’t believe.”
Hemant, have you heard the message?
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
11Hemant, thank you so much for your reviews. You are doing a stellar job with this and I am finding it fascinating.
You said, toward the end of your review, “I still don’t see much reason for needing god in my life, though… not yet.” I’d like to offer several takes on that from my perspective as a Christian.
First, neither do I. (Emphasis on ‘needing’.) I have no doubt that I could make it through my days in an entirely satisfactory manner without God’s presence. Millions of people do. Why should I be any different?
Second, elsewhere in the blog Rick L in Texas made it known that he and I are brothers. Just as I don’t *need* God in my life, I don’t *need* Rick in my life. But we just spent a weekend together as he traveled out here to visit, and it was an absolute delight. We play straight man to each other’s jokes. We talked a lot about how cool we think your “experiment” is. We enjoyed each other’s company in a way that no one else can quite measure up to.
That’s how it is with God. The Bible says “we love Him because He first loved us.” In a sense, Rick loves me because I first loved him. (I’m older. ;-) )
Third, while I would argue that God could not have created the universe without leaving His fingerprints all over it, if He had not wanted us to know Him as a person, we could not have. but He did want us to know Him personally, so He arranged first a written revelation, and then an incarnate revelation. And what we find there, among other things, is the news that He has a purpose for our lives.
So I don’t *need* God. But He enriches my life. When I see a beautiful sunset, I know who to thank. When I encounter a difficulty in life, I recognize that He can make it purposeful in my life.
I think all too often people who think in terms of *needing* God in their lives may be laboring under the idea that things go easier with God. NOT true. Or that God is a cosmic crutch or a cosmic bellhop who helps us out of jams or gets us the goodies we want. I think either of these notions will lead to disappointment.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
12Hemant, one other point which may point merely to a technical clarification. At the beginning you wrote, “1) There is a part about scheduling Baptism. The first line reads: “If God is leading you toward this next step of obedience…” Which I hope just sounds awkward, instead of actually meaning that. Why would anyone simply want to be obedient?”
This wording may be a function of that church’s theological perspective, and thus “technical”. Some Christian churches view baptism as a sacrament. Other churches view baptism as an ordinance. (Techincal differences that only matter to theologians.) A lot of the mega-churches and fast growing churches seem to tend toward the latter. So especially in that framework, but even in the sacramental framework, the word “obedience” is used simply because the Bible records Jesus as instructing His disciples to baptize. So, instructions are given to be obeyed. It doesn’t mean that mere, grudging obedience is the only reason, or even *a* reason, for being baptized, though.
As you are finding out, we Christians do not receive, flawless communicative skills as a part of the “salvation package”. ;-)
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Cully
13When obeying God is hard or doesn’t seem to make sense, the trust a Christian places in God often leads him/her to obey anyway. (I think that’s the point at which atheists get scared of what belief in God might lead Christians to do)
Yes, that scares me quite a bit. I’m pretty much of the opinion that you should question everything, and blind obedience to anything or anyone leads to trouble. Some of the most important events in the history of the world have been because people questioned the authority of the time and decided that the authority was wrong. In a lot of these events the church was included in that authority. America was built by people who questioned the government, the church, and established rule of law. I have just as much of a problem with people who do not question the government as those who do not question the church. If there’s something in your heart that leads you to question, but you submit anyway what does that say about you? I know that christians quite often use analogies about sheep and the shepherd, but when atheists refer to you as “sheep” this blind unquestioning obedience is what we are referring to.
The bible is an enormous and complex text that contains an awful lot of rules and guidelines. A good proportion of these rules have been used in the past to justify some very disturbing practices and events. A good proportion of these rules are also completely ignored by most christians. It is a very scary prospect indeed if suddenly even half of these rules were to become something that christians chose to follow unquestioningly. In fact more than a couple of these rules could be used to justify my murder if a christian were to choose to obey them. This is why a lot of us fight so hard against the American theocracy.
Comment by: Mark
14I had something similar this weekend and the part about worshipping the devil since I don’t believe any god exists is the point I’m trying to make:
This Sunday I helped my ailing grandma move into a nursing home. As we passed by the entertainment room there was a xian sermon going on and I overheard the preacher say “The Universal Unitarians spread lies and deny Jesus…..” so I waited and listened. A young guy, preacher’s assistant, saw me standing there and brought me a chair to sit. I said no thanks but informed him I was Unitarian. I waited and after the sermon approached the minister. I introduced myself and said I’m a Unitarian, atheist. She asked if I believed in god to which I replied there is no god. She asked about JC and I said JC never existed. She said there is evidence and I said it was changed after the fact so there is no evidence. We shook hands and she said that it’s important for us to understand each other. I said “Maam, I completely agree” and left with a smile.
Comment by: Ir
15Tom wrote: So I don’t *need* God. But He enriches my life. When I see a beautiful sunset, I know who to thank.
Tom, atheists enjoy beautiful sunsets also but they don’t thank anyone for them.
Do you think it makes any difference to how much a person enjoys a sunset, whether they thank someone for it or not?
Comment by: Ir
16p.s. to the above: Tom, if you painted a beautiful picture and you saw someone enjoying it, would you be mad at them if they didn’t come and thank you personally for painting it? Would it be enough for you to know that they enjoyed it?
Comment by: Jessica
17Hemant, about being greeted in church yesterday, you reported this experience: I was a bit curious if my attending would be any different this week, because I had mentioned I would be going to this church earlier in the week (my bad). Thankfully, I still felt like I was an outsider observing everything. The only exception to this was someone shaking my hand early in the service, as I sat near the back. We made eye contact— I assumed it was another greeter, like the others I had met when I entered the building. A few seconds later, the same man came back near me, and asked, “Are you Hemant?” (That was strange.) But he added, “I’m Pastor Tim [Harlow].” He said he was glad to see me there, and that was that. Quick, friendly, not a problem. I wondered how he knew it was me… then again, I guess it’s not that hard to spot a brown person sitting in a Christian church near the back by himself… :)
I know it has been mentioned before that Sunday morning at 10 is the most segregated hour in America, but could you share how this impacts your experience when you visit a church? So far in your church-going experience, have you seen any one else that is not Caucasian? I’m interested in hearing why you think this is and if it bothers you. Thanks.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
18Good and intriguing questions both, Ir. To your first question, I cannot begin to answer for anyone except myself. For me, one of the great joys of life is complementing fine work. It matters not whether it is a waitress who has rendered exceptional service or God who has created a sunset comprised of pinks and violets and salmons and oranges and sundry other colors we never associate with the sky. When I see something lovely I enjoy giving thanks, in large part because, when it is a person, I see the pleasure they get in receiving acknowledgement. I believe that we are made in the image of God. And therefore, if we get pleasure from a compliment I can only assume that God is pleased when we recognize His hand at work.
Your second question is even more intriguing to me. To answer it let me make explicit what I see as implicit assumptions in your question: That I *could* paint a beautiful picture ;-) , That it is on display, that the observer knows I painted it, and that I am present and available to be complimented. In truth, I would not be *mad* if they did not compliment it. But I would be pleased if they did. After all, how would I know they enjoyed it if they did not? And, indeed, I wonder if the observer can even fully appreciate some experience of beauty without making some acknowledgement. Can they? I’m inclined to think not.
But it leads me to reflect; I believe that all men everywhere are worshipping creatures. We all worship; we cannot help ourselves. (I think this is the point of the Bob Dylan song that Hemant noted in church — ‘You’ve gotta serve somebody’.)
To extend a compliment for an act of beauty is a form of this worshipping impulse, simply rendered on a small stage. The interesting this in this forum is what happens on that largest of stages. If my assumption holds water, then we all, Christians and atheists alike, worship. The difference is, in part, what is the object of worship, and in part, who determines the proper object of worship?
Sorry for the rabbit trail. It just seemed to flow out of your questions, Ir. But they are fascinating questions, indeed. Thanks for asking.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Meagan
19Hi Hemant! I’m still enjoying your insight. I just read your thoughts on this past Sunday and something that really stuck out to me was the part about it being important to question what you see and hear. I could not agree with you more.
Actually, that is something I’ve realized from this whole experience. To have an opinion or a belief at all you’ve got to really fully know, for yourself, the “why” behind it. An idea will do you little good unless there are personal experiences and heart to back it up.
Comment by: the Leewit
20Ir wrote: I suppose the atheist view is that the patients already have medicine as good as anything the doctor can offer; that it’s not true his is better; some atheists may believe his is much worse; and either way, they’d rather see the doctor use his time and energy offering something that his patients really need and really don’t have already.
Actually, the atheist view (or at least this atheist’s view) is that they aren’t diseased to begin with, and thus aren’t in need of any medicine. The way many of us see it, the Christian religion pretends you have a disease (”You’re a sinner!”) and then offers the cure (”But we can save you!”).
Comment by: Ir
21Good point, the Leewit. Except - to me, ‘pretending’ is the wrong word, because Christians do believe what they are telling you. Pretending is what you do if you say “I’m already a Christian, actually” just to shut them up ;-) (I’m not suggesting you do that!)
Anyway, back to the doctor: perhaps if the doctor were willing to admit he is in less than perfect health and he were willing to take advice/medicine the patient recommended, the patient would be more willing to hear the doctor out.
Because most of us are aware that there are things we could do to improve our health, but don’t feel much like admitting that to someone who approaches us with the unsolicited opening remark “Boy, you sure are in worse shape than me! Let me give you some advice…”
Comment by: Ir
22Tom, I appreciate your thoughtful responses to my questions.
Part of the thought behind the second one was that the only reason I care whether people actually thank me for things is because I’m insecure and crave attention. Surely God doesn’t have those problems, so, as long as people enjoy his sunsets, is it really possible that he cares whether they actually tell him that or not? But the problem with me wondering about that is that it also leads me to wonder this:
If people are treating each other like God wants them to, is it really possible that he cares so whether they believe in him, that if they don’t, he sends them to hell anyway? (No matter how kind, generous, etc etc to others they are)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
23Cully writes [The bible is an enormous and complex text that contains an awful lot of rules and guidelines.] True that! However, for the Christ follower, Jesus has distilled it all into something painfully simple. “Love God, and love your neighbor.” The point is, that you can’t do one without the other, have to do them both, and if you do them both, all the “rules” will take care of themselves. And I suspect if those who follow Christ did a better job of that (and many do a great job of that), the world would be a better place, since by design, Christianity is designed to benefit those outside the faith on earth as much as those within.
Comment by: Ir
24Cully wrote: for the Christ follower, Jesus has distilled it all into something painfully simple. “Love God, and love your neighbor.” The point is, that you can’t do one without the other
So you can’t love your neighbor unless you love God?
Is that because you aren’t loving someone unless you’re trying to persuade them to become a Christian?
Apart from trying to turn one’s neighbor into a Christian, what aspect of ‘loving one’s neighbor’ are atheists unable to do?
Comment by: Ir
25Oops, sorry Peter - my mistake - you wrote the quote the quote I just quoted, not Cully.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
26Thanks Ir. I think I may not have been as clear in what I said as I meant to be. Thanks for keeping me sharp. Jesus’ point I think was that if you don’t love your neighbor, then your love for God is a sham. I would argue that of course you can love your neighbor if you don’t “love God”. People do it all the time. I think the kind of love for neighbor that flows out of love for God is pretty special myself (I’m thinking of the Mother Teresas of the world), I admit, but it is obvious from what we can see that anyone can love their neighbor.
And no, I don’t believe loving your neighbor involves tryiing to persuade them to be a Christian. Honestly… I’m happy to talk about why I believe what I do, and of course I think it’s the truth –otherwise I wouldn’t believe it would I– but the kind of “rude” proselytizing you are implying… I agree, that’s not love.
If Jesus is who he says he is, and if he lives in me, you should be able to tell if you know me, and that should be enough I think. And if you’re going to believe in Him, then I think it’s His job to convince you… not mine…
Comment by: Ir
27Thanks for clarifying, Peter. I’m relieved you didn’t mean what I thought you might have meant!
Comment by: Tim Harlow
28Hemant,
This is the Pastor at Parkview.
Thanks for joining us this weekend. I did take a chance at asking if you were the right guy. But they had your pic in the Daily Southtown which is where I first learned about your quest. And not many people come to church with a large notebook:) So I’m glad I took a shot and got to meet you. We actually do have a fair number of non-causasian people at our church, I’d be glad to introduce you to some if you wanted a take on that.
You are right that this wasn’t exactly the most “normal” service for you to see. When I first learned you were coming I wished it was a different day, but our services are planned months in advance. I do invite you to come back any time and the lunch invitation stands.
It was quite a positive thing for me, as I thought about what it would be like to be you - listening to the sermon. I’ll try to do that better every week.
The “You’re Gonna Have to Serve Somebody” song was by Bob Dylan. They are “either\or” lyrics, and I don’t disagree with them. But the important thing is that we have a church that can use stuff that isn’t necessarly “Christian” in it’s genre. I do believe it’s true, though. It is either\or, whether you understand what you’re doing or not. I am supporting Capitalism as an American whether I agree with it or not. Whether I even understand it or not.
But that shouldn’t make you feel unwelcome. Jesus was THE guy who loved to hang out with the people who didn’t fit the religious mold. Somewhere along the way here you need to come to grips with the fact that we aren’t just trying to convert people to a different way of thinking, nor are we hoping to have more on our team so we win something some day.
At the very core of this whole Christianity deal is that Jesus can wipe out our sins and take us to live with God in a perfect place someday. Someday that will be either\or. That is what Jesus taught, so that is what we believe. If we care about you or anyone else, we will do whatever we can to help you. We will build you a house, we will serve you, we will make room for you, and we will love you. Some Christians won’t. Some of them are fine with their own ticket being stamped. Not me.
Keep up the good work
Tim Harlow - Pastor of Parkview CC
HERE IS MY RESPONSE. SO FAR. BUT IT’S MONDAY. GIVE ME IMPUT - I haven’t sent it.
Hemant,
thanks for joining us this weekend. I did take a chance at asking if you were the right guy. But they had your pic in the Daily Southtown which is where I first learned about your quest. And not many people come to church with a large notebook:) So I’m glad I took a shot and got to meet you.
You are right that this wasn’t exactly the most “normal” service for you to see. When I first learned you were coming I wished it was a different day, but our services are planned months in advance. I do invite you to come back any time and the lunch invitation stands.
It was quite a positive thing for me, as I thought about what it would be like to be you - listening to the sermon. I’ll try to do that better every week.
The “You’re Gonna Have to Serve Somebody” song was by Bob Dylan. They are “either\or” lyrics, and I don’t disagree with them. But the important thing is that we have a church that can use stuff that isn’t necessarly “Christian” in it’s genre. I do believe it’s true, though. It is either\or, whether you understand what you’re doing or not. I am supporting Capitalism as an American whether I agree with it or not. Whether I even understand it or not.
But that shouldn’t make you feel unwelcome. Jesus was THE guy who loved to hang out with the people who didn’t fit the religious mold. Somewhere along the way here you need to come to grips with the fact that we aren’t just trying to convert people to a different way of thinking, nor are we hoping to have more on our team so we win something some day. At the very core of this whole Christianity deal is that Jesus can wipe out our sins and take us to live with God in a perfect place someday. Someday that will be either\or. That is what Jesus taught, so that is what we believe. If we care about you or anyone else, we will do whatever we can to help you. We will build you a house, we will serve you, we will make room for you, and we will love you. Some Christians won’t. Some of them are fine with their own ticket being stamped. Not me.
Keep up the good work
Tim Harlow - Pastor of Parkview CC
Comment by: Tim Harlow
29sorry i sent it twice
Comment by: Siamang
30Kudos to Pastor Tim for coming here and being part of this dialogue!
Comment by: Ir
31Pastor Tim, thanks for dropping by with your response.
we will do whatever we can to help you. We will build you a house, we will serve you, we will make room for you, and we will love you. Some Christians won’t. Some of them are fine with their own ticket being stamped. Not me.
With all due respect, I wish you had stopped at “we will love you” and left off those last three sentences.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
32Tim
Thanks for dropping in, especially on a Monday.
Comment by: Cully
33for the Christ follower, Jesus has distilled it all into something painfully simple. “Love God, and love your neighbor.” The point is, that you can’t do one without the other, have to do them both, and if you do them both, all the “rules” will take care of themselves.
How do you reconcile this with the seeming Christian predilection for condemnation? I can barely count the number of times, or the number of reasons, I’ve been told I am going to hell. Are the people who told me that not “true” followers of Jesus?
I’ll admit that, so far at least, this community has lived up to the principle that you site here. I dread the day that we get discovered by some of the more extreme factions of either side of this discussion.
Comment by: Cully
34Ooops. Looks like I forgot to close my HTML tag up there.
The first paragraph is a quote from Peter in #23, the rest is mine.
Comment by: Ir
35Jim wrote: “Tim, Thanks for dropping in, especially on a Monday.”
(emphasis mine)
Jim, I assume you’re assuming Tim has Mondays off — which does seem to be typical of preaching pastors.
To me, one of the sad realities of any sizable church is that the people of the church go at least once a week, and hear the pastor preach to them as if they are his friends. After a while they feel like they know him; they do feel like he is a friend, of sorts. But most of them are not his friends/ they are his job. If they were his friends he’d want to do things with them on his day off. But he doesn’t; he wants (and needs) a break.
I’m sure pastors do need breaks and I’m not trying to say that they don’t care about the people who come to their church. Maybe I’m saying, it’s sad that the way things are structured forces the relationship between the person who happens to be preaching regularly and the people who happen to be listening into being a job which the one preaching needs breaks from.
Anyway, when you wrote the above did you mean “thanks for doing some work on your day off?”
When a pastor reaches out to befriend a visitor like Hemant, is it just part of his job or is it more than that? When a pastor says “Let’s do lunch” to someone who has visited his church, would he be open to doing that on one of his days off, do you think?
Comment by: Lynn I.
36Hemant,
Meant to send this greeting on Sunday (but flu took priority in my day!) I was glad to hear you visited Parkview - was disappointed however that you came late and left early. I attended the 11:30 service(I understand you missed the Bob Dylan song - truly your loss) I have to ask how you can fairly and accurately judge (if that’s what you’re doing) what goes on in the life of a church or a christian for that matter, if you don’t get the entire picture? Here’s my scenario for you - You have a novel that’s 1000 pages long. You have just a portion of a dedication page that’s legible. Pages 2-600 are torn out and pages 608-1000 are also missing - on the book jacket is the only reference to the heart of the story and it’s someone else’s critique of the book. With the above scenario realted to Parkview; or any other church for that matter, how can you make a fair assessment? Maybe making a fair assessment isn’t what your mission is about. All I can say is I’m sorry you missed out - great music, great teaching, great company, always great coffee!
Note to Ir - Tim is Tim - what you see is what you get! No pretense, no games, no pedestal! I don’t even know if I’d call him a “preacher”.I see him as a teacher (actually at times he’s also the student as he admits his “human-ness”, and learns right along with us.) Does he work on his day off? I’m not so sure he has a day off? But I can guarantee if he says “let’s have lunch”, it will be whether it is a day off or not. He is a man of his word. Don’t know your location Ir, but if it’s anywhere near Parkview I would like to invite you to attend and though I’m not Tim Harlow, I’ll take you to lunch after service (or breakfast if you’d rather go to 8:30 am service - or even dinner if you’d rather attend Saturday night!) I extend the same invitation to Hemant if you’re willing to come back…I look forward to seeing a post from either one of you.
Lynn
Comment by: Lynn I.
37My sincere apologies Hemant! As I said I intended to comment on Sunday (flu) - so I didn’t read your post regarding PCC today before I made my post. Apparently you did stay (or at least you picked up the cd to listen to later…) either way, I apologize for not being more observant to the site. I’ll have a little ice cream with my humble pie at lunch! The offer for a meal and some conversation is still out there though. Perhaps you’d like to attend the first services in the new building? Let me know.
Lynn
Comment by: Jim Henderson
38Lynn
I am going to use your comments to “capture” how Christians “wish” they could be perceived by those who are “shopping” our “services”.
As long as the church continues to do business using Western consumer/cultural approaches and systems(buildings, events, stages, speakers etc) as far as Church outsiders are concerned we will continuie to be viewed as part of the larger “service industry”. And as say in Marketing 101 “Perception is reality”
We (Christians) may not like this but as long as we want to play the game this way we are open to critique and should in fact welcome it. (Of course, we could change our way of “doing business” :-)
So how long Hemant spent at Parkview is irrelevant - It is not his job to “give Parkview a fair hearing” Off The Map hired Hemant and asked him to approach his visits with the same self serving eyes even Christians bring to the process when “church shopping” - What’s in it for me is THE question all human beings (Christians and Athiests) who are privleged? enough to live in a consumer culture bring to how they approach Church, Gas Stations or the nearest Mall.
As a consumer it’s not your job to make it easy on the service or product that is vying for your attention - it’s THEIR job. That’s why it is called “competition” which is essentially what churches do every week not only with the broader culture but with each other.
BTW - If Outreach Magazines rankings count for anything(and it is apparent from Parview Church’s website that they do) - I would say that Parkview Church is winning and should be proud that they are one of the (very very very few churches in the US) that are growing at all!
Comment by: Ir
39Hi Lynn,
Thanks for your kind invitation. I’m not at liberty to take you up on it because my time at weekends is already committed in other ways, but I do appreciate the invitation.
Your church is blessed to have people like you who are willing to take the time to share a meal with a visitor before or after the service.
Comment by: Lynn I.
40Jim,
I’m not at all sure where you’re coming from with your last post regarding my comments but your cynicism regarding church was pretty evident. To clarify my comments, they were not made toward an end of how I “wish” to be perceived as a “christian” - they were genuine (both the initial post and the apology!) So I guess I am just a little confused as to why you read that into them? Again, perhaps its just that cynicism - I have never looked at any church (especially Parkview) as a consumer product or service to be bought, sold, traded, or otherwise to compete in the general marketplace. Your broad assumption of “ALL” human beings … (Jim’s Post - “What’s in it for me is THE question all human beings (Christians and Athiests) who are privleged? enough to live in a consumer culture bring to how they approach Church, Gas Stations or the nearest Mall.”)…is really kind of sad. You see as a Christian probably the most important thing I’ve learned is that it’s NOT ABOUT ME at all! It’s about serving God and serving others. Maybe that’s why I can be curious about something without being cynical about it - I’m not looking for an ulterior motive under every kind word and deed - sometimes it really is what it is and nothing more. Christians aren’t oblivious to the harsh realities of life, we just know we’re not alone so we can afford to be open and honest. If someone is looking for a church only based on what’s in it for them, they’re never gonna find one they’re happy in… If they’re looking for God only for what’s in it for them, they’re never gonna find Him either… Maybe that’s why it picqued my curiosity with your observations of my post- you mistook my honesty and openness for a marketing soft-sell. Not that you’re looking for it, but I do feel rather bad for your tortoise-shell appproach to things - true, it is safer inside the shell, but if you don’t stick your neck out some awesome things are just going to pass you by. Thanks for the dialogue, it’s been great.
Lynn
Comment by: Ir
41All I can say is I’m sorry you missed out - great music, great teaching, great company, always great coffee!
Lynn, no offense, but to me this does rather sound like a marketing soft-sell and an attempt to point out “what’s in it for you” to Hemant.
Comment by: Lynn I.
42Ir
No offense taken. This site is about open, honest dialogue - we give, we take and we all hopefully grow a little. Have an awesome day!
Comment by: Ir
43Thanks, Lynn - you too. If you have the opportunity, I’d love to hear your thoughts on a couple of questions which I posted under the blog entry here “Lynn Responds to Jim”. I know it’s hard to read ‘tone’ on a discussion board; please believe that they are serious questions even if the way I phrased the second one sounds otherwise.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
44Ir,
Sorry to be slow in responding. I’m finding the format hard to keep track of — where have I responded? where do I need to check back with?
Anyhow, in 22, above you asked two questions. First, “… the only reason I care whether people actually thank me for things is because I’m insecure and crave attention. Surely God doesn’t have those problems, so, as long as people enjoy his sunsets, is it really possible that he cares whether they actually tell him that or not?”
I’m sure you’re correct; God is not insecure. But I don’t think insecurity is a factor. ISTM that acknowledging the good — whether beauty or good service in a restaurant or a kind gesture — is a necessary part of the appreciation of it. If you do a kind deed to me, for example your expression of appreciation for my earlier thoughts, that is the proper completion of appreciation. I think God desires our thanks because He understands that we will not experience the full joy of an experience if we do not go all the way through to the end of the process; the giving of thanks. The giving of thanks is, in that sense, for our benefit (from a loving Father) not for God’s benefit. There’s a lot here that could be expanded on.
Then you also asked, “If people are treating each other like God wants them to, is it really possible that he cares so whether they believe in him, that if they don’t, he sends them to hell anyway? (No matter how kind, generous, etc etc to others they are)”
Interesting question. I’m inclined to think that all that God instructs us to do is for OUR benefit, not His. He made us and He loves us and He knows what it takes to make us experience the joy of life that He intended when He created us. And so I’m inclined to think that it isn’t about “playing nice”, it is about being able to enjoy life to the fullest extent possible. And I think that God knows that we cannot do that apart from a relationship with Him.
Think of the person you love the most. Would you *want* them to go through life without the love that you’d like to give them, even if they had other friends?
Just before Jesus pronounced the “Golden Rule” he said (Matt. 7:9-11) “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
I think this tells us a great deal about God’s dealings with us. He loves us and wants to give us those things that will make life full and rich for us. (Not, obviously, in a materialistic sense.)
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Ir
45Tom, those are beautiful thoughts about God and His dealings with people.
For me personally, though, I would rather not have a relationship with God. I used to trust God and tell him things and ask him what He wanted. But - I could never be sure what God’s response was; and increasingly I felt, how could I even know what God was like because every Christian seems to have a little different understanding of what God is like (for example, the nice ones have a nicer God). And as I began to be honest about what really matters to me, I wasn’t even sure I liked God, if God will be able to be in heaven happily forever with all those people in hell. I can’t relate to that.
That’s why I wanted to try life without that relationship. And now I’ve tried it, I don’t want to go back.
Think of the person you love the most. Would you *want* them to go through life without the love that you’d like to give them, even if they had other friends?
If they were happy without my love, then I don’t see a reason for me to mind them going through life without it. Unless I had a co-dependency problem which meant that me wanting to express love to them was all about me needing something back from them, rather than being about them.
Comment by: Doug
46Ir,
You answered your own question about God and hell.
“If they were happy without my love, then I don’t see a reason for me to mind them going through life without it.”
I am guessing you know the story of the prodigal son. It was just as much an act of love by the father when he let his son leave as when he welcomed him back. Even though when the son left the father knew he was probably going to end up in a type of hell.
If you are happy without God’s love then he just might respect your freedom and let you go through eternity without it. Whether He does or should “mind” are other questions. But, hell, if you don’t mind, why should He?
Comment by: Debbie
47Well said Lynn, “Tim is Tim - what you see is what you get! No pretense, no games, no pedestal! I don’t even know if I’d call him a “preacher”.I see him as a teacher (actually at times he’s also the student as he admits his “human-ness”, and learns right along with us.) Does he work on his day off? I’m not so sure he has a day off? But I can guarantee if he says “let’s have lunch”, it will be whether it is a day off or not. He is a man of his word.”
I copied the above from Lynn’s post because I thought it was worth saying again.
I’ll be glad to pitch in for lunch too.
Comment by: Ir
48Ir,
You answered your own question about God and hell.
“If they were happy without my love, then I don’t see a reason for me to mind them going through life without it.”
I am guessing you know the story of the prodigal son. It was just as much an act of love by the father when he let his son leave as when he welcomed him back. Even though when the son left the father knew he was probably going to end up in a type of hell.
If you are happy without God’s love then he just might respect your freedom and let you go through eternity without it. Whether He does or should “mind” are other questions. But, hell, if you don’t mind, why should He?
Doug, the prodigal son story doesn’t apply unless someone who goes to hell can subsequently change his/her mind and be accepted by God into heaven. Which isn’t part of the hell doctrine I was taught.
Comment by: Doug
49Ir,
Well, actually, the story does apply.
The issue of the permanance of hell has been and is being debated in the church. Personally, I would be fine with finding out that there was still opportunity in hell. But that is a helluva chance to take. And it is not the point you brought up.
Your point was: “if God will be able to be in heaven happily forever with all those people in hell. I can’t relate to that.” It is the old question about how can a loving God send anybody to hell. The story of the prodigal son is not primarily a lesson about hell. But it is, like much of the Bible, about a loving father allowing his kids to make truly self-destructive choices. The prodigal son decided to go home while he was still alive. He could have chosen otherwise.
Wouldn’t you admit that there comes a time with every choice we make when it becomes too late to change your mind? What in human experience would lead us to believe that with this, perhaps the most important question of all, we get to be wishy-washy forever?
Someone has said that God believes in human freedom more than humans do. I think that is correct. I do not much like the doctrine of hell. But you can not entirely get rid of it without doing serious damage to human freedom and value. If you remove the consequences of choices then our choices have no meaning. And if our choices have no meaning, then neither do we.
You said you “would rather not have a relationship with God.” So, is God supposed to not take you at your word? Or is He supposed to disregard all the warnings He has given us about the door finally being shut? Or is He never to treat you like an adult?
Doug
Comment by: susan
50“Even God cannot change the past.”
What if: God can’t change who goes to hell?