Lynn Responds to Jim

Comment by: darci

Ouch! This is a good moment to ask a question… Why is it offensive to some Christians to hear this kind of “goods and services” language being used to describe what we “offer” people who are checking our churches out?

Comment by: Ir

Lynn, how did you conclude that God wants you to go to Parkview rather than a different church? How can you be sure He doesn’t want you to go to a church with music you don’t much care for, boring teaching, people who are hard to get along with and tasteless coffee?

Comment by: bill

Sorry, meant to acknowledge that Ir’s first line of questioning is the kind of meaningful line of dialogue I had in mind. I agree that Lynn’s comments smell like commercial copy regardless of whether or not she intended a “sell” of any sort. How can any of us avoid the consequences of living in such a marketing driven culture. The cynicism that Lynn points out is real. I have a hard time not looking for the sales pitch in almost everything.

Comment by: TXatheist

bill,
I answer your question after you answer the one I asked Lynn. Will you demand to go to hell on judgement day?

Comment by: Bruce Lofland

Ir, to answer your question, my church does have great music, teaching, company and adequate coffee :). The leadership is up front with it’s members that the church is marketing and is always trying to attract new people with all of these things. We occasionally even have marketing campaigns. Is this what attracted me to this church? Yes, among other things.

I can worship and otherwise pursue a relationship with God in a lot of different ways and settings. I can even do this without going to church at all, but it is more difficult. My kids love going to church, which is great.

Our church is trying to reach out to people that don’t normally go to church, thus we want to make it a place that people like to go. Competing with other churches is not our goal as much as competing with sporting events and that sort of thing. Yes, we market and try to make church enjoyable for everyone, but it isn’t just a social club. We are trying to get people try to connect with God.

Comment by: Ir

Txatheist - I realized after I posted that question that a) you wouldn’t choose to write a question inferring you were going to hell and b) I probably shouldn’t have inferred it myself.

My apologies.

Comment by: Stephan

Ir, I’ll answer one of your questions and run like hell from the other.

The original reason I chose the church I am in now was the music. I knew several members of the staff, and knew them to be great musicians who would keep high standards. Being a musician myself, that was pretty important to me. The teaching is good, the company is probably the same you would find at most suburban churches, and I really couldn’t tell good coffee from bad coffee. The ironic thing is that our music leader stepped down last summer, and I am now leading the music at our church. The reason I took that leadership and stayed at the church is that I feel a commitment to this group of people that is above and beyond music, teaching, coffee, convenience, sales pitches or anything else. Part of the danger I see in “marketing” a church is that it tends to attract people who are not very involved or active in the church - they just show up on Sunday mornings without it making a difference in their daily lives. I would say that church attenders that are attracted by the “product” a church sells would probably leave if that “product” changed rather than investing themselves in it.

As for trading places with someone in Hell, I’m glad it’s not something I’ll ever have to decide. The Good News is that Jesus already went there, so no one else has to.

Comment by: Brent

I did not become a Christian because I wanted to go to heaven or to avoid hell. I began searching for God as a teenager because I felt that if God had created me, then he deserved my attention and respect. Later I came to trust the Bible and that led to a desire to understand what the Bible had to say about God and what God had to say to me through the Bible. As I grew in knowledge I then sought to experience God’s supernatural power in my life. Then, as I continued to mature I began to desire not just the knowledge of God and not just the power of God, but God himself. I wanted to know God in a more intimate way.

I know I’ve opened myself up a little here, but I wanted you to understand that the Christian experience cannot be accurately described as a transaction to purchase heaven or escape hell. Indeed, I’ve never made that transaction. I want God himself. Nothing else matters.

Comment by: Ir

TXatheist, I don’t mind admitting I became a Christian because it what it did for me.

But when I was a practising Christian, I didn’t think I was better than people who weren’t, any more than I thought I was better than the people who died on 9/11 because they worked in the World Trade Center and I didn’t. I was glad I didn’t work there because I like being alive, but I couldn’t claim I survived and they died because I was better than them.

Do you really think all Christians think they are better than people who aren’t Christians?

Comment by: KSG

Ir,
My answer to “Churches which spend money on being ‘attractive’ -down to the details; developing their own contemporary design of headed notepaper, with matching envelopes and matching bulletins; which then is redone a few years later so it doesn’t look ‘dated’…it all seems so superficial to me. Does it achieve anything of real value? ”

No.

I wish churches would stop. Just stop. What?. Being.

I say that as someone who is a part of a church and am involved with music. My church has an outstanding music dept., kids dept. that my children love, excellence in all areas, teaching that is world class, a Xian school, a Bible & music school, reaches to prisons, seniors centers & hospitals, has a great drama dept. and probably anything else you can imagine.

And I wish it would stop.

We get so caught up in being a (small “c”) church that we stop being the (big “C”) Church.

I want to be a part of the Church without walls, the Church on the street, the organic church, call it what you will. The one with a living breathing communion with it’s head, it’s lover.

Comment by: TXatheist

I definitely wasn’t implying Christians are better people than atheists. I was asking if you thought you’d go to hell and if not then why you have a better chance of heaven? Chance is the word I was leaning on. I understand now it’s because of the bible some think that way. As you know I see the bible as something completely different than you and that is the difference.

Comment by: Lynn I.

Ir,

In response to your post (#4 Lynn, how did you conclude that God wants you to go to Parkview rather than a different church? How can you be sure He doesn’t want you to go to a church with music you don’t much care for, boring teaching, people who are hard to get along with and tasteless coffee?)

It’s a little tough to explain but I’ll give it a shot. For me it starts with faith and a belief that sometimes we really are “called” to something or somewhere. Here’s how it started: We were repeatedly invited to attend PCC by my niece. When we finally had a Sunday to go, we did. (this was before the big building, the large number of people, worship band, programs, hi-tech stuff and big coffee pots…As a matter of fact I think the band consisted of a piano, a guitar, and maybe drums?)That Sunday was also the start of vacation bible school, so things were a little different to say the least because it was all geared towards the kids. Pastor Tim assured us that it wasn’t always like this so to please attend again. We enjoyed that morning, so we decided to take him up on his invitation and we did come back again. In thinking back, I believe my first impression was that of authenticity. The people, the teaching, the environment was real. No pretense, no glitz and glitter (no marketing if you will), and most importantly I heard God’s Word in a way that was real and I could understand how it related to my life. The more we attended and the more I learned and understood, the more I grew in my spiritual walk. Ultimately I believe that one of God’s purposes for each one of us is to grow in personal relationships with Him and other Christians - I found myself doing this through Parkview. Opportunities began to arise to serve at church that would utilize my abilities & sometimes I even stepped out of my “box” and did things I never knew I could do. I am still (7 yrs. later) growing, learning, and yes stepping out of the box! As much as God desires for us to please Him, He also desires to please us. I don’t believe He would “call” me to a church with boring teaching, bad music, difficult people, and tasteless coffee! He wants me in a place for growth in my spiritual walk and relationship with Him.

Hope this answers your questions.

Comment by: Stephan

Siamang, I see the same problem you do, but I come to a different conclusion. I agree that “our desire for an all-loving God clashes with the text of the Bible and the conclusions it points to.”

I believe the Bible was inspired by God, but written by people, and these were primitive people, drenched in their own primitive culture. Anything they write would reflect that culture. This may skew our understanding of the true message.

I also know that my understanding of love is limited. Sometimes when my children ask for something, I say no. To them, I am a mean and cruel dad, and I appear to be unloving. I understand the reasons behind the rule and the eventual outcome of my actions. My children do not. I believe our relationship to God is similar, in that His understanding of things is infinitely greater than ours, and He understands the eventual outcome of every action.

That said, I still cannot reconcile for myself that a loving god would send someone to eternal hell. I choose to believe that God has it under control because, for me, it is better than all of the other options. I don’t believe another religion has something better to offer, and I treasure my beliefs too much to throw them out as you have. It may not pass your test of logic, but it’s all I have.

Comment by: Lynn I.

TX,

This site is about open dialogue towards a better understanding right? I’m 47 yrs. old, not at all naive, and have experienced a lot of things in my life (many I probably shouldn’t have), however this is quite truthfully my first “real” conversation with an atheist and I’m genuinely interested in your perspective on the Bible and why?

Comment by: Ir

Thanks for your response, Lynn.

As much as God desires for us to please Him, He also desires to please us. I don’t believe He would “call” me to a church with boring teaching, bad music, difficult people, and tasteless coffee! He wants me in a place for growth in my spiritual walk and relationship with Him.

I’m glad you said that because what I’m wondering is: why can’t you grow in your spiritual walk and relationship with God if the music at your church is bad and/or the teaching is boring and/or the people are difficult and/or the coffee is tasteless?

Comment by: bill

I would like to refrain from jumping any further in to this fray. Suppose I should have thought about that before I commented. I will simply answer the question TX put to me.

No, I will not demand or insist that God send me to hell to prove that I’m not like all the other questions who selfishly want to go to heaven. TX I’ll leave it up to some of the others to be winsome and admit that I will most likely be off putting.

Your question is very much like the, “so when did you stop beating your wife?” question. Although I will grant that anecdotal evidence is significant to back up your claims about “most” Christians the orthodox Christian faith has as its central tenet that no one goes to heaven (whatever that may mean) because they deserve it. Anyone that you hear saying or implying that is either 1)not a follower of Christ, or 2)mistaken.

My hunch is that you’ve heard most of this kind of stuff before. Let me simply suggest that you not create a caricature of Christianity to do battle with. And let me say that I am truly sorry that this seems to be the only kind of religion you’ve gotten to see.

Comment by: Bruce Lofland

from bill #31 above “Your question is very much like the, “so when did you stop beating your wife?” question.”

I agree with bill on this. The original question TX posed left the answerer with options of being selfish or foolish.

TX, there are many different Christians and types of Christianity out there. I am personally not concerned about whether I go to heaven or hell someday. That is not why I became a Christian.

Here is a link to an article about the inerrancy of the Bible that I think is interesting and might be of interest to those who are confused about the inconsistencies that they see be tween the Bible and the faith: http://www.cresourcei.org/inerrant.html

Comment by: TXatheist

Lynn,
You sound sincere so this is hard. I do have a conscience contrary to the opinions of Jerry Falwell and I will be honest but simple. The bible is just a book. It is a book that many people have never investigated from a skeptical point of view, imo. There are many, many similar mythology stories with similar messiah concepts. The virgin birth, heaven, afterlife, ascension into heaven and a Father up above are hardly unique to the bible or any more authentic. It is a book that we can use to demonstrate good and bad ideas but it is no more inspired by a god than any other book. I hope that’s honest enough:)

Comment by: TXatheist

Texan,
Being versed in the bible I have news for you, you’re wrong. I don’t have information wrong but you might not like it or agree with me and that’s fine. Do find it a little hard to accept Jesus when you completely understand that there is no evidence for Jesus and to accept him would be nothing more than lying and paying lip service to something you find untrue. I don’t bow to Allah either you could say and he is just as true to Muslims and going to give them virgins in heaven for accepting Muhammed as God’s prophet. Are you wrong or them? Are you going to heaven or Muslims? I say no one but you each think you are going. It’s not that I don’t want to hear I’ve sinned, I haven’t because sinning is a religious concept and I’m not religious. It’s like saying your a bad driver but you never drive. When I was saying selfish I wasn’t talking about Jesus dying for everyone as you believe, I’m talking about you wanting heaven. Wanting something like that is selfish as I see it. It’s like wanting to be perfect. You can’t. You saying people don’t want heaven isn’t true. Ask many atheists if they want heaven alongside fundamentalists(not you) but Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. We don’t pretend things to be true so our desire for them doesn’t exist. I wasn’t saying man doesn’t have an inherit level of selfishness such as survival but to live forever is quite a stretch of what you expect out the next 4 billion years or so. I was a Christian but appreciate you trying to communicate these things. As far as it being a reality…well maybe I’ll call it a Christian belief but that’s it:)
In an equal effort for clear communication,
TXatheist

Comment by: Stephan

TX, I am not saying that everyone is going to heaven, but I am also not saying that anyone is not going to heaven. It’s really not for me to say. I think the Bible is just vague enough that God can do whatever He wants. I have no doubt that Jesus’ death on the cross was the only sacrifice sufficient to pay our way into heaven, but I do not know exactly how God will apply that. Do you have to “pray the prayer”? Is death the last chance you have to make up your mind? Like you, I apply my own standard of love and mercy on the situation. If given a clear choice between eternal bliss or eternal torment, anyone in their right mind would choose eternal bliss. Therefore, anyone who does not choose this must have misunderstood the question. Would a loving god punish someone on the basis of a misunderstanding? I don’t think so, and I think think God left it open enough that He can save anyone He wants to.

Comment by: Jim Henderson

Stephan

Well stated

Comment by: Linda

what i basically mean to imply from the above passage is in response to several comments that Christianity was about selfishly getting a ticket to heaven. It’s not at all. I believe it is possible to be a biblical Christian without even fully believing in heaven and hell as it is normally depicted.

I neglected to get that message across at first attempt!

Comment by: Bruce Lofland

TXatheist, are you saying that there is not such thing as humans being unselfish, therefore Christians are not being honest (even with themselves) when they say they are trying not to focus on themselves so much? I remember hearing that argument phrased like this: “You want to help people because it makes YOU feel good”.

So where does that leave love (between people)? If I love my wife and children and do something with them that they want to do instead of what I want to do then I am still being selfish right? Are you saying that because I value my relationship with them more than I value my other desires, then anything I do to improve, maintain, or experience that is selfish?

What about the firefighters that died trying to rescue people from the World Trade Center on 9/11? Were they being selfish too?

This does not sound like skepticism, but cynicism. Although directed at Lynn’s comment at the beginning of this thread, the idea that there is no such thing as altruism is not restricted to Christians. I can’t speak for Lynn, but when I think of Christians getting the focus away from themselves, it means taking a wider view and including the community in their thoughts, actions, and feelings because they love God. Yes, this has rewards, just like loving my wife and kids has rewards, but it benefits others and not just the Christian. It is not competitive. If I get the reward, that doesn’t mean you can’t have it too. There is plenty for everyone.

Comment by: Siamang

Linda wrote: “if you don’t want to have anything to do with God or his community, why would you be concerned about who is going to heaven? ”

One thought here. For me and a lot of my friends in the atheist community, the reason we’re atheists doesn’t have to do with the idea that we WANT to get away from God.

It’s that we don’t think he’s around in the first place.

If I knew where God was, I’d be there in an instant! Who wouldn’t?!!?

To be an agnostic atheist isn’t to be angry at God and tell Him “I need some alone time.” It’s more like “Is the invisible, magical, wish-answering creature that every seems to believe in but me imaginary or just really really quiet?”

Comment by: Bruce Lofland

I think that we see a lot in the media and don’t have dialogs like this often enough between believer and non-believers. I have heard the atheist equivalents of Pat Roberts or Jerry Falwell rant in the press sometimes. Christians get the idea from this that all atheists are angry people. OTOH, some atheists think that most Christians are judgemental and arrogant like Robertson or Falwell. The extreme positions always get the most press. My experience is that most Christians I have met are not like this and most atheists I have met are not angry or evil.

Comment by: Siamang

Bruce wrote: “I have heard the atheist equivalents of Pat Roberts or Jerry Falwell rant in the press sometimes.”

Bruce, I’d like to know, do you remember who these atheists were that you heard? I’d honestly like to get a list of the people who Christians are likely to hear and have known about. I’d also like to know whose approach is NOT working with you!

I have my preferred atheists. But they’re probably not as famous as whoever you heard!

(Click my name below to learn my favorite!!)

Thanks!

Comment by: Lynn I.

Ir,

I think the majority of Christians don’t struggle with the “why”. I really only hear that question of non-believers searching for a reason that something happened. ie: “Well if He is such a kind and loving God, why did He let that happen?” Believers on the other hand go to that place of inner strength which comes from a firm foundation of faith and trust in God. Instead of “why” we ask “how”? How can we help (or serve) those hurting or suffering. In those instances when it has hit personally the majority of Christians respond by looking to God (through the Bible, through other believers, etc.), gain strength and grow from that point.

Comment by: Ir

Lynn and Siamang, those are very interesting responses. I suppose these comments of mine are going to be wayyyy too long for most people to read but I hope Lynn and Siamang will try :)

Lynn wrote: I really only hear that question of non-believers searching for a reason that something happened. ie: “Well if He is such a kind and loving God, why did He let that happen?”

Siamang responded: I don’t ask the “why did God let this happen?” because for me the question might as well be “why did Superman let this happen, or why did Santa Claus let this happen?”

My experience is that non-believers don’t ask themselves that question, because, as Siamang points out, there’s no more reason for them to wonder about it than there is for Christians to wonder why the Easter Bunny let it happen.

On the other hand, I’ve often seen non-believers bring up the question as a response to Christians who talk to them about God, since non-believers do tend to see the amount of suffering in the world as one piece of evidence that no good God can exist. Perhaps non-believers have responded to Lynn with that question when she’s talked to them about her faith; and/or perhaps she reads discussions/debates between Christians and non-believers and has seen it in that context. Lynn, could you elaborate on the contexts in which you’ve heard non-believers ask this question?

Lynn wrote: Instead of “why” we ask “how”? How can we help (or serve) those hurting or suffering.

Siamang responded: We both think that OUR philosophy provides the answer.

I definitely agree that Christians often ask “how can we help suffering people?”. People who aren’t atheists often do too; Lynn, I hope you’ve observed that.

(That reminds me: it really annoys me when Christians goad atheists and say “Why not be selfish? That’s the logical choice to make based on your worldview!”)

I think everyone who wonders about life in a philosophical way has a time when they go through a process of asking questions and choosing the answers which seem most likely to be correct. Once they’ve done that, they settle into having those answers as their ‘working hypothesis’. They don’t re-ask the questions unless something happens which shakes their worldview so much that they feel forced to do so. Which is probably just as well, because no-one could concentrate on their job or anything else, if their head was full of questions all the time.

It’s not surprising to me that people don’t generally question their own worldview, because it’s no fun thinking “Maybe I’m wrong about everything“. It’s rather humiliating. :/

Anyway, so I agree that in general, people have settled worldviews and have already answered any questions they might ask to their satisfaction.

We might look at people with a different worldview from ours and think “How can they possibly be satisfied with that answer?” We might go so far as to ask them that question. Well, they probably are. Even if they aren’t, it’s unlikely they’ll admit it to you right then. Perhaps they will come back someday and tell you that it was a good question and part of what led them to revisit their worldview assumptions and change them.

Having said that, I’d like to see if I can reconcile what I wrote and what Lynn wrote by being more specific about what I meant when I said Christians struggle with the ‘why’ question.

Lynn wrote: I think the majority of Christians don’t struggle with the “why”. [...] Believers [...] go to that place of inner strength which comes from a firm foundation of faith and trust in God. [...] In those instances when it has hit personally the majority of Christians respond by looking to God (through the Bible, through other believers, etc.), gain strength and grow from that point.

Lynn, I agree that believers go to the place of inner strength that comes from their faith; that they respond by looking to God and that they [can] gain strength and grow from that point.

So now I’ll try to clarify what I meant about the ‘why’ question. When something devastating comes into a life of a believer, they enter into a grieving process. I think you are describing part of the process and the ideal outcome of it. I was describing another part of it that I’ve witnessed in Christians and which I believe is common. It’s the part in which a Christian has to adjust their view of God, for example, from “Someone I hope will protect me from severe suffering” to “Someone who chose to allow this particular severe suffering in my life”. “Why did you let this happen?” is an anguished cry from the heart rather than a challenge to God’s authority or a rejection of faith in Him.

In my experience, I think Christians in grief need to ask that question. Having done so, they often come to the place of “I don’t understand why God allowed this but I’m going to continue to trust Him nevertheless”. At which point they may well have grown in the sense that they have a more accurate perception of God and have realized that — evidently - their personal protection and comfort is not His only agenda. But coming to that place of trust doesn’t happen overnight, in my experience.

For what it’s worth, Christians in grief have been very hurt by other Christians who think it is ‘wrong’ to ‘question God’; they have the grief already to deal with and now they are made to feel guilty for what is actually a normal part of grieving and usually, if not always, necessary (I believe). The Bible has various anguished cries in it; I think it may well have some “why, God?” cries of anguish in David’s Psalms.

People who aren’t Christians have to come to terms with personal suffering too, but it doesn’t necessarily incorporate the painful dilemma of why someone who says they love them caused/allowed them to suffer so much.

It would incorporate some sort of similar dimension if, say, a person who wasn’t a Christian was attacked and left maimed for life by their spouse that they trusted. That would necessitate an adjustment in their thinking. Yet it’s still not like what a Christian goes through because, presumably, after something like that the person would never trust that spouse again and would do whatever they could to keep themselves safe and protected from that spouse for the rest of their life. Whereas, the goal of a Christian is to return to trust and faith in God after God has allowed - which some equate to ’caused’ - them to suffer greatly. And to be fair, the analogy also fails because the spouse did an evil thing and God never does; Christians believe God always has a good purpose in mind even when Christians can’t see it.

Comment by: Bruce Lofland

Siamang wrote: “Bruce, I’d like to know, do you remember who these atheists were that you heard? I’d honestly like to get a list of the people who Christians are likely to hear and have known about. I’d also like to know whose approach is NOT working with you!”

Richard Dawkins is the first name that comes to mind. It isn’t because of his stance on the evolution issue, but rather the way he communicates it. I do not support ID, but he really riled up a bunch of Christians. Since I live in Kansas, I hear him quoted often. I have his book, “The Blind Watchmaker”, since it was quoted from the most often. I get the impression that he is very in-your-face. That is why I would equate him to Robertson or Falwell.

Comment by: Ir

Stephan wrote: Maybe the reason [God] does not intervene is because He can’t. He would be breaking His rules.

Stephan, I read your comments with interest. Here, I’m not sure whether you are saying God actually can’t break His own rules, or that He chooses not to. I know some people answer “Why does God allow so much suffering in the world?” with “He can’t stop it” — I think there’s a well-known book by a Rabbi about why bad things happen to good people which gives that answer.

It’s hard to understand why God wouldn’t intervene simply because He chooses not to break His own rules. I mean, I could make a rule that I’m not going to interfere with what my child when he/she is having fun playing. But if he/she ran into the street in front of oncoming traffic, I’m sure I’d break my rule! Why wouldn’t God rather break His rules than allow harm to those He loves? The recorded acts and words of Jesus continually show Jesus choosing love over rules when a choice has to be made.

The following are general comments, going back to Siamang’s topic of the problem of evil in general:

I was thinking yesterday how it’s interesting that the problem of evil doesn’t generally cause Christians to stop believing in God. I suppose that’s not surprising: in human terms, if someone we know behaves in ways we didn’t expect, we might conclude we didn’t know them as well as we thought and we might be very disappointed in them. But we wouldn’t conclude just from that that they didn’t exist. To come to that conclusion we’d have to decide that every time we saw, heard and talked to them we’d mistaken them for someone else or we’d been imagining things. If you’re convinced someone is real, that you’ve spent time with them and they’ve communicated with you, why would you think otherwise just because their behavior confused you?

Conversely, even if a theist could convince an atheist that it’s not logically impossible for a good God to exist in view of the suffering in the world, I don’t think the atheist would go straight from there to belief in God. “God could exist” is not the same as “God does exist”.

Comment by: Stephan

Ir, I recommend you read “Is God to Blame” by Greg Boyd. He says it far better than I could in this space. I would assert, however, that a world in which God prevented bad things from happening to good people would make less sense that the one we live in. Cause and effect would go right out the window. I would also assert that you do not stop all bad things from happening to your children, and sometimes you even inflict things they consider “bad”. I know I am often accused by my children of being mean because I do not let them watch certain TV shows, or I do not let them have a snack 30 minutes before a meal, or I make them brush their teeth before going to bed. They see these things as bad, but they are really for their own good. Could it be that some of the things we see as bad might really be the same? I am not saying that all things we see as bad would fit this category, but some certainly might.

Comment by: TXatheist

Ir,
Do you have your sense of humor this morning? Here’s a joke inside the non-christian community. We’d rather go to hell and be there than with the fundamentalists in heaven, that would be hell:)

Comment by: Ir

Do you have your sense of humor this morning?

Hmmm…let me check…yep, I still have it!

We’d rather go to hell and be there than with the fundamentalists in heaven, that would be hell:)

So I’ve heard ;)

I’ll admit I’m not comfortable with the standard Christian answers, but not enough to give up my faith.

Thanks - I’m glad you’re not comfortable with the standard answers. I don’t really see how anyone with any compassion can be.

I also understand how your faith can survive the hard questions.

Comment by: TXatheist

Ir said:
I also understand how your faith can survive the hard questions.

Sorry, what does that even mean? Literally.

Comment by: TXatheist

I think that’s the difference between christian and atheist. I understand your point but I didn’t find any faith in the question nor find it hard.

Comment by: Siamang

ir,

The idea that God can’t stop an injustice, because doing so would conflict with His laws… to me that logically doesn’t wash.

Why are His Laws so darned evil friendly and good hostile in the first place?

Why is it easier to kill an innocent person than it would be to protect them?

Why is it easier to hunt a creature to extinction than to save it?

Let’s get right down to order and chaos. Why is it that it’s easier to destroy than to create?

God allows murder and rape, but doesn’t allow for prayer to stop a rapist or murderer. A bullet, the use of violence, however can stop a rapist or a murderer.

To take a ridiculous example, God doesn’t want us to breathe water. According to God’s law, breathing water is punishable by instant death. We do not have absolute free will, since I don’t have the free will to breathe water or travel faster than the speed of light.

Why did God create a world where evil is easier to do?

Why didn’t he just create a world where SOME evil things were off limits? For the purposes of “free will” you could still do evil, enough evil to be able to weed the good from the bad, but just not stuff like genocide or slaughtering the innocents. Just stuff like coveting and bearing false witness, stuff that doesn’t turn the world into a bloodbath.

Just a thought.

Comment by: TXatheist

siamang,
I could give you an answer too but it’s the atheistic one:) p.s. what is “siamang” if I may ask?

Comment by: Siamang

Stephan,

I don’t know about that. God sure stacked the deck in evil’s favor. To the point that if I were sure He existed, I’d worry about the guy! ;-)

To the question of why the world makes evil easier than good to do, you could equally answer “because God wants us to hate evil” as you could answer “because God wants us to perfom evil” or “because God doesn’t care about good or evil” or “because God has no power to rid creation of evil.”

When a bullet can stop an advancing sexual predator, an abusive parent or a hungry wolf, but prayer cannot, HOW does that teach us to hate evil? To me, that teaches one lesson only, “violence works when prayer fails.” It’s not a godly message. It’s certainly not Jesus’ message. It’s not a moral message. But it’s a practical reality. It says, “be prepared to be as violent as your most deadly foe.”

To me, the problem of evil argues perhaps in favor of an apprentice creator. An imperfect creator of the universe, one who makes things slightly broken.

Or a polytheist world, where good and evil were created by opposing gods.

I think there are a billion answers to the PofE, each one no more logically compelling, but some answers people choose because they are the most comforting.

Comment by: Texan

Gibbons rock!

Comment by: Siamang

Texan wrote: “I think there are verses in the book of Daniel and Malachi that refer to a place of waiting after death. Basically you stay there until you are ready to move to the better side of the afterlife. (there is some reference to this in the NT too, but they are single verses that could possibly be cherry-picking) To my understanding, everyone goes there, Christian or non-Christian.”

That seems to echo Zoroastrians belief in hell.
This passage is from the wikipedia article on Zoroastrianism I linked above:

“After death the person must walk through the Path to Judgement or Chinvat Peretum to bear responsibility for his or her actions when alive. There is a belief in heaven and hell in Zoroastrian cosmology but it is a little different than that of the Christian hell. The evil are sent to hell until the time when evil is finally defeated, at which time they will go through a purgation process, the “ordeal of molten metal”, and then join Ahura Mazda and the saints. Thus, Zoroastrianism can be said to be a Universalist religion with respect to salvation.”

These are ideas that were bouncing all around the Mediterranean from before the time of Pharoah Ramesses the Great, the era the Bible describes in Exodus.

Comment by: Lynn I.

Ir,

You asked me a question in post #56 about a non-believer, in context, asking the “why does God let bad things happen?” question. First of all, sorry for it taking me so long to answer - the weekend was insane for me so I’m just now getting back.

A rather famous atheist, Dan Barker (founder of Freedom from Religion), in speaking to a group regarding September 11th said, “Because God had the foreknowledge, God had the power to stop the brutality but he didn’t. He is something of an immoral accomplice.” Did that answer your question to me?

Comment by: Lynn I.

Ir,

One more thing from your post #56 - yes, I am aware that non-believers are also giving, caring and loving people. Believe me, Christians don’t have a corner on the market. I think the difference between the believer and the non-believer when it comes to helping the hurting and suffering people is the basic premis of “give a man a fish and he eats for a day - teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime…” Christians want to meet more than an immediate physical need. Its wanting to provide a real hope to those who feel hopeless.

From reading some of your posts on the other threads here, I don’t know what happened that caused you to lose your faith or hope, but it must have been something pretty significant to cause you to just stop believing. I’ve endured some pretty tough things in my life and truly, if I didn’t have my faith and trust planted firmly in the Lord I honestly don’t know where I would be right now.

Comment by: Lynn I.

Siamang,

Re-read his actual comments in the context he wrote it. He asks Hassanain, “Would you have stopped them? I would have. I am sure—you are a good man—that you would have stopped it. You would have stopped the bloodshed, the trauma. I would have, as a good human, moral person. If you say “Yes, I would have stopped it,” then you are nicer than god…”

He says Hassanain is a “good” man…he would have stopped it. Then he goes on to say that he (Dan) is a “good human, moral” person. Then he again says if Hassanain stopped it he is nicer than God. All of those statements, whether he was debating the existence or not, perpetuate the sentiment that if God really did exist; because he is supposed to be kind, loving, caring, moral, etc., that he wouldn’t allow these things - if any good, moral person would stop something horrible from happening if they could,surely God would - wouldn’t he?

(Sorry I don’t use italics to quote, but I’m not really sure how to do that! I’m new to this whole blog thing…)

Comment by: Ir

By the way, Lynn, about italics:

If you look right above the reply box it has a list of ‘tags’ you can use. The letter i in arrows is the one for italics. You type the i in arrows right before the text you want to be italicized. To turn off italics at the end of that text, type /i in arrows. So, i in arrows turns italics on, /i in arrows turns it off.

Likewise, b in arrows turns bold on, /b in arrows turns it off.

Comment by: Lynn I.

Ir,

Still trying to get that italics thing down. Sorry.

Comment by: Lynn I.

I think I got it finally.

Comment by: Ir

LOL Lynn - you get ‘A’ for effort! :)

For some reason if the italics is left on from a previous post it seems to take more than one /i in arrows to turn it off.

Comment by: Ir

TXatheist wrote: If Lynn and Ir don’t mind I’d like to give the atheist view on this.

It’s fine with me, TXatheist. Jump in anytime, as far as I’m concerned.

TXatheist wrote: If a god exists I’ll admit I’m wrong but I have some questions for god when we meet and he will get the third degree from me:)

Sounds interesting! :)

Lynn wrote: A good example of this type of person is one that would blow up an abortion clinic in the name of God. I seriously don’t believe that is something God condones. Unfortunately these seem to be the kind of people atheists use as the poster children for Christians when in reality that is not the majority. No more than the unibomber would represent environmentalists. I think atheists use, for arguments sake, the worst end of the spectrum.

Dawkins did use the pastor (who was a supporter) of the person who murdered an abortion provider in his recent UK TV programs. But not all atheists do that or approve of it — for example, Siamang has criticized Dawkin’s approach on OTM’s blog and Hemant’s blog.

Anyway how about Christians? Do you think they fairly represent the spectrum of atheists when they talk about atheists? In my experience, they don’t.

Ir, thank you for your soul-bearing honesty in your personal search for the truth.

Thanks.

Lynn wrote: I know I can exist without God in my life- there are millions of people who do it everyday. I think we could all survive emotionally without God too. God in one’s life isn’t a matter of emotional survival or existence - if that was the case, a very large percent of the population would cease to exist and/or we’d have a whole lot more crazy people running around! My stance is I can exist without Him in my life, but I choose not too.

Well, I prefer life without Him so I chose differently from you.

Lynn wrote: I have chosen an eternal life through Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation that was offered for me. In your post you state you needed to know how to survive emotionally in case He didn’t exist afterall.

One simple question Ir, what if He does exist…?

Then I have no idea why He has let me walk away, or why He has ordained that my best effort to follow the evidence where it leads has led me away from belief in Him.

If He wants me back then He needs to come tell me that Himself.

Comment by: Lynn I.

This is my last attempt. If it doesn’t work then everything I type from here on out will just be in italics.

Comment by: Ir

TXatheist & Lynn,

I think I generally go with what people pro-something use. Like, I say “pro-life” to people opposed to abortion and “pro-choice” to people in favor of it rather than “pro-death” and “anti-choice” :)

It’s a bit tricky because there’s no middle ground between capitalization and not capitalizing that I know of.

Anyway, I always capitalize God but not always the pronouns. After all, even some Bible versions don’t capitalize the pronouns! I figure that if people want to know what I do or don’t believe, they will just have to read what I say carefully and not jump to any hasty conclusions :)

Comment by: Lynn I.

Ir,

Thanks for hand-holding through the italics fiasco!! LOL.

Ir wrote: Anyway how about Christians? Do you think they fairly represent the spectrum of atheists when they talk about atheists? In my experience they don’t.

I’ll be honest, up until you all and OTM I didn’t kknow there was a spectrum! All I heard about were the likes of the Madeline Murray O’Haras and Dan Barkers. I suppose its no different than atheists using Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson for the measuring stick of Christians! That’s why blogs like this are so awesome - we can cut the crap and get on with the business of figuring stuff out the right way.

When I asked you, what if God exists…? You responded: Then I have no idea why He has let me walk away, or why He has ordained that my best effort to follow the evidence where it leads has led me away from belief in Him.

Precisely my point Ir - God created us to have free will! Did you ever try to make someone love you? You can’t do it. They have to choose to love you - then it’s real. It can’t be out of some distorted sense of obligation or duty - when it’s real you will want to walk into someone’s arms, that means God’s arms too. He didn’t just let you walk away, He couldn’t stop you - it really was your choice to make. As far as you following the evidence that led you away from Him - Christians are allowed to ask questions and to search for truths - that’s how my faith deepens. Sometimes the truth is hard to see and sometimes it’s just plain hard! As far as God ordaining your search that led you away, I definitely question that one. To ordain is to command, decree, or to order. I don’t that happening. More likely (again, pure speculation on my part as I don’t know your story here) a person(s)caused doubt in you - perhaps you were hurt or saw that hipocrasy that Christians can be infamous for. As you searched to find the truth or evidence as you say, you found the truths that were easier to live with. Ir wrote: If He wants me back then He needs to come tell me that Himself.

Ir, I respectfully submit to you that when He comes for you; and He will, if you’re not listening for Him you won’t hear Him. God speaks in many ways - its not always an audible voice, but He speaks none-the-less and you really can hear Him if you’re listening. I have always said that I could really be on fire for the Lord if I had a burning bush like Moses (no pun intended). But when I thought about it, my faith may be greater than Moses because I believe in God without the burning bush and the audible voice…

Comment by: skikid

Ir
I think that people can live full and happy lives without God (I suspose it goes to the choice bit). I always thought it was odd that when I was athiest people would ask me if I felt like something was ‘missing’. My response was always ‘no’. Missing is like when you loose a kid at the zoo, panic and something is really worng, I never felt that way about God (or not-God as the case may have been)

Comment by: Ir

Thanks, skikid : )

Lynn wrote: Ir,

When you were a believer I don’t know how much bible study you participated in or if you just did things on your own, but for me the studying, questioning, and digging deeper really made a difference in my understanding. I did one called, “Experiencing God”, by Dr. Henry Blackaby (sp?). The key focus for me was learning to hear God. Learning the difference between my thoughts and God’s voice. Also learning to hear direction for my life. When I ask, “God, what do I do”? Being able to understand when it’s His answer and not my wishful thinking one way or another. Without re-doing the study here (which wouldn’t be appropriate), I think it’s worth you taking a look, if for nothing more than to understand how some Christians can say I can hear God or I know what God wants me to do.

I was in several Bible studies, some of which included a lot of teaching. One that I was in went through Experiencing God (when it was ‘all the rage’). I have my filled-in guide somewhere. I liked it a lot at the time, although later when I read some criticisms of it I agreed with them (I can’t remember what they were now).

In recent years, when I got really honest with myself, I had to admit that I couldn’t really prove any of ‘my thoughts’ were ‘God’s thoughts’. And in view of that I decided that I didn’t want to consider any of my thoughts to be God’s, since if they weren’t I would place undue weighting on them.

I value the input of other people; if I could be sure some of what is in my head is from God, then I’d value that as input from an infallible source — i.e. very highly. But — since I have no way of being sure I decided to just consider everything in my head to be my thoughts, ‘to be on the safe side’.

I’m sorry for your experience of feeling like it’s your fault if you didn’t experience something. It should never be that way for anyone and if someone laid a guilt trip on you from that perspective - shame on them!

Thanks — actually that was what I felt you were saying, in effect, when you said “If you don’t hear God you’re not listening”. That sounded to me like “it’s your fault if you don’t hear God”. But maybe that’s not what you meant.

Sometimes I get those light bulb moments and some times I don’t - but when I don’t get it and other’s seems to, I don’t feel like it’s my fault and maybe I’ve been fortunate to always be around Christians that were humble - not arrogant and flaunting some great holy experience. Truthfully, those kind of people seem rather phony to me as I’m sure they do to non-believers.

At this point in my life I’d say I’ve known some wonderful people who are Christians and some wonderful people who aren’t. I’ve also known some not-so-wonderful people in both categories.

I suppose whether its Christianity or atheism, its a journey of learning, discovery, and growth.

Yes, definitely!

But as a Christian, I feel like I have something more waiting at the end of it all

I understand.

- Im curious,do you have that as an atheist?

I’m not counting on anything following this life. I don’t mind — I’m happy to live this life to the full. In some ways I think it makes me value this life much more, that I am not counting on something following it. It seems a shame to me that some Christians seem to waste this life away waiting for heaven.

Comment by: TXatheist

Lynn said:I suppose whether its Christianity or atheism, its a journey of learning, discovery, and growth. But as a Christian, I feel like I have something more waiting at the end of it all - Im curious,do you have that as an atheist? I would ask the same question of TXatheist.

TX:No, this is all we get so make the most of it.

Comment by: TXatheist

Jim H,
Any comment on Stephen’s post as you did fran’s in the other topic?

Comment by: TXatheist

Actually it was “Free will is still the question. Like it or not, God gave it to us.” but I do appreciate you willing to compromise on your tone. The Like or not is…..well, you know now.:)

Comment by: Stephan

Siamang, I think you hit the nail right on the head. In my opinion (got myself covered there), God’s gift of free will to us precludes his use of it to some extent. Just like a parent teaching a toddler to walk. You let go of their hand, knowing they may fall. You make a concious choice to let them try on their own, meaning you cannot protect them from the rapidly approaching floor. You give up your own free will so they can exercise theirs.