Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 03.05.2006 /
Salem Baptist Church is a large concert-venue-type auditorium on the South side of Chicago. It is also the (almost-) all-black megachurch headed by Illinois State Senator James Meeks (D), who is also vice president of Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow-PUSH coalition. Remember when I thought I was slightly out of place at the all-white churches…? Well, I clearly underestimated how much I stand out when I’m the only non-[fill in your church's race here] in the building. It felt much stranger here to be brown. Anyway, I thought this might happen. So I brought along my girlfriend. Who is white. Good times.
By the way, I know there are historic reasons for black churches, but why do churches segregate themselves? Both believe that faith in Christ is essential, but to divide the churches by race says to me that everyone bases how/where they worship on something bigger than Christ. Which seems paradoxical. (Christ unites us all! But race… that separates how we worship Jesus.)
When we walked in for the 10:00 am service, the choir was singing (It was massive). The band was playing. I think there was a even a church Color Guard that was dancing with flags. This seemed like a nice way to begin Sunday. At the risk of sounding like a Richard Pryor bit, the White churches had bands with a few singers and instrumentalists, and it was welcoming to hear it, but this was more intense. So many singers. And they were loud. The White churches sang and clapped with their songs. The Black churches were jumping up and down, throwing hands in the air and waving them, and turning around in their seats. Like I said… more intense. And this was fun to watch. Until my watch said 10:45 am and they still hadn’t stopped singing. That was annoying. Throughout the singing, I was wondering why so many people were walking in late. (The service started at 10:00! Why are you looking for a seat at 10:30?) Now, I know why. The “real” service didn’t begin until much later. But I wondered: Is this service about singing or sermon?
As I was watching the crowd, though, one thing that struck me as odd was how so many little kids– kids around 4-5 years old– were also dancing, waving the hands, etc. They weren’t doing this because they “felt the music.” I say this because they kept looking to see everyone else and they imitated them. I wondered how many of them, as they get older, actually do “feel it.” Are they really reacting to the music or are they doing the same motions they have always done? I remember thinking similar thoughts about people performing the rituals at the Catholic Church…
As the singing was going on, the TV screen (only one this time!) showed an inset of baptisms that were being performed. People of all ages, babies and adults, were being dunked into the pool. I obviously don’t think that’s anything but symbolic, but I always felt the notion of baptisms was a solemn, quiet one… done with a family and a priest. Not as a mass-Baptism for all. That seems plain cult-ish.
It really was a spectacle in a lot of ways– and I don’t necessarily mean that negatively. Some of it was good. It was so colorful. From my vantage point, the ground floor was a kaleidoscope. I don’t think I could imagine any white person wearing the bright orange shirts I saw here at Parkview. I liked that, though. Everyone was more unique, I think, than what seems to be a one-ness of the churchgoers at many of the White churches. But yes, the baptisms were a bit strange… and so were the bunny, Power Ranger, and lion costumes. (Why they were there, I have no idea.)
Finally, the singing ended. Reverend Meeks introduced a visitor to the church– a person who is in the race for Illinois State Treasurer– Alexi Giannoulias. I’ve seen ads up around the city for him, but I hadn’t seen him in person. Giannoulias gave a short, stump speech about why everyone should vote for him, and then left. Is that weird for people to listen to at church? I know politicians, to court the black vote, make stops at the black churches, but something just seemed wrong about this. Why is the pulpit a place to endorse candidates? Isn’t that illegal? Of course, Giannoulias also said “Let’s give praise and honor to God,” but I think I was the only person in the room who had issues with that.
Then began Meeks. He is a powerful speaker who knows his audience better than anyone I’ve seen. To me, he didn’t speak as a pastor; instead, he spoke as a leader of African-Americans. I don’t think that’s the purpose of church, but damn, was it effective. He talked about societal problems and black history. How they never received their 40 acres and a mule when the Homestead Act gave white people much more land for free (he gave more details on this… details which I’m not bothering to fact-check right now. Because I’m sleepy.) He talked about how even the poorest white people had a couple slaves before the Civil War (That just didn’t seem accurate). The point is that this was the gist of the sermon. Some more soundbytes (paraphased, in some instances):
When talking about how blacks’ have unfortunate circumstances in society: “I ain’t waiting for Democrats, Republicans, white people, black people [to change things]. I ain’t waiting no more!”
When talking about problems in the black community: “There’s a big HIV problem… it’s because y’all nasty!”
When talking about Giannoulias: “I like Alexi… but why let Greek people who own banks get our votes when we can’t borrow money or own banks? Why do they come to us? Why aren’t we voting for people of our own color, from our own community?”
What to make of all this? It was impressive. I loved listening to him. At times, he was funny. At times, he mentioned black history to show how the Man is keeping black people down and how the church must rise above this. At times, he had the whole crowd begging for more. Everyone was hanging on his every word. For what it’s worth, this church does a lot of important work for the community– in previous years, for example, they tutored every third grader in its 60628 zip code. Meeks has a way of bringing people into his vision.
That’s a lot of what I heard. Here’s what I didn’t hear: Long-winded analyses of random passages from the Bible. There was no over-analyzing. There were a couple mentions of Bible verses, but it wasn’t the focal point of anything; it was merely a place one could refer to. There wasn’t a lot of room for an Atheist to disagree with anything Meeks was saying, other than the historical accuracy of his facts, which is not my purpose for listening to him.
There was also much less individual prayer. You didn’t pray for a sick person. Rather, you prayed for the community as a whole. One thing I appreciated hearing was the Meeks said that prayer is nice, but it’s not enough. Everyone must do something as well. Take action. Vote. Meeks said the church tends to think Jesus will cure all– that the problem with society is a lack of spirituality… but he added we should be writing and calling instead of just praying. That’s what will make a difference. (”The slaves believed in Jesus, too,” he said, “but laws change us!”) Again, hard to argue with his message. But I’m not any closer to God as a result of my visiting this church. I do empathize more for the black community, though.
It’s not surprising, after all this, why there are so few black Atheists in my community. There are exceptions, of course, but with all the crap a black person has to go through in society, this church is a safe, happy haven for them. Why would they want to leave.
One more tiny thing that I noticed… in the program (which was sadly not as up-to-par as the relatively smaller churches’ programs from past weeks), it had an ad for the church’s Christian Education Ministry. It asked: “What is the shortest chapter in the Bible? (Psalm 117.) What is the longest chapter in the Bible? (Psalm 119.) Which chapter is in the center of the Bible? (Psalm 118.) There are 594 chapters before psalm 118, there are 594 chapters after Psalm 118, Add these numbers up and you get 1188. What is the center verse in the Bible? (Psalm 118:8) Does this verse say something significant about God’s perfect will for our lives?”
This is what is called “Coincidence.” You can manipulate any book in any way and find any message you want. To think that the Bible is laid out in a special way because of the above-mentioned reasons is just seeking something that’s not really there. And I’m scared if that’s how they intend to educate students on the validity of the Bible.
For those who are curious, with all the talk about how the white person screwed the black people, I think the girlfriend felt awkward. I didn’t notice anyone staring at her, but I think she felt like all eyes were on her. Granted she’s Catholic, but I don’t think she’ll be going on any more church visits with me :)
Comment by: Siamang
1That psalms 118 stuff is mistaken.
But hey, myths get around.
How many chapters in the Bible? It depends on the bible you’re using. What version of Christian are you?
If you’re using King James, there are 1189 chapters, not 1188. They say this in a wierd way, to kind of hide that there are 1189 chapters.
But that makes the center chapter of the bible, Psalm 117.
The central verses in the bible are in Psalm 103, not 118 or 117.
http://www.christring.org/thinkabout/middleverse2.htm
I’m kind of amazed at these folks using numerology to “prove” the bible. Isn’t numerology a form of witchcraft?
Anyway, kind of silly. But nobody would read it if they said:
Did you know, the middle verse in the bible is pretty close to the part that has the middle chapter? The middle verse is only 4 chapters before the middle chapter! What an amazing non-coincidence!
If you add up all the chapters, it makes 1189! And Psalm 118:9 is a verse in a chapter only ONE chapter after the center chapter (Psalm 117) and 5 chapters after the center verses (Psalm103:1 & 2)!
I should say that I haven’t performed the calculations personally, but I’ve seen two different sources for these calculations, snopes and Christring, so I’m thinking they’re pretty accurate.
Churches worldwide, I’m sure, keep pushing this chestnut. Probably some of the churches that people reading this go to. I’m sure this runs in dozens of church newsletters each week, if not hundreds.
It’s a scientist’s approach to look at something like this, a claim of, if not the supernatural, at least the spookily coincidental, and test the claim.
It is a difference of cultures, to me, to see that many people at churches choose not to do that investigation and weeding-out process of something like this.
To prove this claim wrong doesn’t disprove any central tenant of Christianity, to be sure. But questions of intellectual and acedemic rigor are brought up by this.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
2The bible thing is just plain dumb. See Siamangs observations above.
This is what closed cultures do or can do when outsiders aren’t present to ask why.
Comment by: Ir
3Hemant, thanks for your comments — as detailed, interesting and thoughtful as ever!
Did you and OTM deliberately not announce where you were going before you went, this time? Did you decide it’s best not to?
But I’m not any closer to God as a result of my visiting this church. I do empathize more for the black community, though.
But — some people would say that to gain empathy for other people is to draw closer to God!
(The following are intended as observations, not ‘preaching at you’)
According to the Bible, one of God’s goal is to make people like Jesus — and Jesus is depicted as the ideal of empathy.
Also, according to the Bible, Jesus said that loving other people and loving God are pretty much the same thing. I wonder why they seem so separate in some Christian thinking?
Siamang wrote: To prove this claim wrong doesn’t disprove any central tenant of Christianity, to be sure. But questions of intellectual and acedemic rigor are brought up by this.
and Jim wrote: The bible thing is just plain dumb. See Siamangs observations above.
This is what closed cultures do or can do when outsiders aren’t present to ask why.
Exactly.
Siamang, one of significant reasons I began to question everything I heard at church was observing a marked discrepancy between what they said about atheists and what I found to be true of atheists. If they were wrong about what I could easily double-check, was it wise to assume they were right about everything else?
Jim, what scares me is that closed cultures not only do this but that a) they often don’t seem aware that they’re doing it and b) if an outsider questions what they’re doing, they often — instead of learning something valuable from the question — dismiss the question simply because it comes from an outsider who “doesn’t understand”. (For example, the outsider doesn’t have the Holy Spirit, so how could he/she understand?)
Comment by: Teresa
4To use a church (or any other tax exempt, not for profit organization) to promote any political candidate to tell people how to vote is wrong. THey could lose their tax exempt status for that. I’m so disappointed to hear that took place in a church… But sadly, I am not surprised. It angers me, as a Christian, when I hear about that happening.
And the middle verse of the Bible thing… wierd. And probably irrelevant.
Thanks for your observations and comments Hemant, they’re much appreciated!
Teresa
Comment by: Jim Henderson
5Ir
I agree with your comment(below)which is why OTM has taken the approach of simply bringing “outsiders” into church and asking them to tell us what they see and then giving them a platform.
“what scares me is that closed cultures not only do this but that a) they often don’t seem aware that they’re doing it and b) if an outsider questions what they’re doing, they often — instead of learning something valuable from the question — dismiss the question simply because it comes from an outsider who “doesn’t understand”. (For example, the outsider doesn’t have the Holy Spirit, so how could he/she understand?)
Comment by: Pam
6It breaks my heart that Sundays are so segregated. Like you said Hemant, it makes no sense to act like the color of our skin or the culture we are a part of is stronger than the unity God desires for us. I understand how segregation stems from tradition and offers comfort, but it seems that God is not a very big proponent of either.
That’s all I have for now, but I’m here reading and I really appreciate what you’re doing, Hemant and OTM.
Comment by: Ir
7Jim, I very much appreciate how OTM listens to outsiders and values their questions/comments.
I listened to Hemant’s ‘interview’ on Way of the Master over the weekend - if it can be called that; perhaps ‘Hemant’s talking to’ is more what it was.
I was very disappointed in the hosts’ behavior, which conveyed “Hemant, your comments have zero value to us”. When they even gave him time to make any, which wasn’t that often.
I posted on Hemant’s site that as I listened to that show, I felt such a sense of deja vu - I think I’ve been on his end of ‘conversations’ (monologues) like that too often, in my life.
I remember questioning the interpretation of a guest teacher at church once. He responded with an analogy which included the words “When you’re five, you might see things one way, but when you’re fifteen…” Gee thanks, I thought. What I’ve learned about you this morning is that while you may be an entertaining teacher, you sure are an arrogant ******* .
Comment by: TXatheist
8Jim,
If I may say, I do understand the holy spirit thing.
Comment by: Brtva
9I agree with Pam, I do not think that churches should be segregated. Part of it is tradition, part of it is the feeling of belonging. I think we still do have de facto segregation happening in this country, unfortunately. Take a glance around any college cafeteria and you’ll see what I mean.
I was privileged to attend 4-5 predominately black churches last summer while I was in Louisville, KY. As one of sometimes only 4 white people in the church, it was a bit awkward at times. I felt nothing but love and welcome there, though..partly because I would be working with the children in the church the week after my attendance. Anyway, enough of an explanation…I found my self smiling and nodding as I was reading your post, Hemant. I was surprised, though that you the preacher didn’t mention scripture very much. In my experience, almost every word was a reference.
As usual, I enjoyed your description. Have a good day, everyone!
Comment by: Ir
10Here’s what I didn’t hear: Long-winded analyses of random passages from the Bible.
Hemant, did you hear that at any other church you’ve visited? I understand ‘long-winded’ :) but the ‘random’ part puzzles me.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
11Txatheist
Per the Holy Spirit - That was a quote from Hemant not my comment
Comment by: Rick L in TX
12Hemant wrote: this was fun to watch. Until my watch said 10:45 am and they still hadn’t stopped singing. That was annoying. Throughout the singing, I was wondering why so many people were walking in late. (The service started at 10:00! Why are you looking for a seat at 10:30?) Now, I know why. The “real” service didn’t begin until much later.
Punctuality is not a value common to all cultures. I recall visiting a black friend’s church in the 70s and being cautioned that once I walked thru the door I was on “BPT” - “Black people’s time”. I understood her to be saying in effect that her culture wasn’t as concerned about faithfulness to published start times as what I was accostomed to, and that extended song sets at the beginning were something of an accomodation to that cultural reality.
Rick L in TX (Tom’s brother)
Comment by: Edward T. Babinski
13I applaud Hemant’s church visitations and his honest calm comments. Though similar comments have often been made by folks who used to be devout (and/or “born again”) Christians. Such people are called “apostates,” yet they have spent more time attending church than Hemant has, and many of them formerly attended Christian schools and colleges as well. Some apostates even spent years behind a pulpit (and/or altar) rather than in front of one.
I am not suggesting that all “apostates” have left all forms of Christian creedal beliefs, because even if you just leave a more “fundamentalistic” form of Christianity for a more moderate church or creed, you’re still viewed as an “apostate” by the more conservative of the two congregations. *smile*
A calm rational review of my own Christian past includes memories such as these:
I remember…
Being raised a happy “once-born” Catholic all the way to confirmation at age thirteen–Sitting on a curb with my best friend in high school and praying to invite Jesus into my heart as my “Lord and Savior”–Reading the Bible all the way through for the first time, beginning with the four Gospels, and crying at the descriptions of Jesus’s crucifixion and resurrection– Loving God–Loving Jesus and what He did for me–Loving the Bible–Loving the fellowship–Loving the music–Being around people of like mind in emotionally charged situations that involved handshaking, hugging, singing, testimonies, sermons and reading from the same Holy Book–Driving on the New Jersey Turnpike handing money to toll-booth operators with a Gospel tract wrapped around it–Distributing tracts to fellow students in the parking lot of my college campus–Playing guitar and singing Christian songs in the campus quadrangle to try and attract souls that needed saving–Posting fliers with anti-homosexual Bible verses on them to campus bulletin boards as soon as I had heard that a few students were trying to form a group that was pro-gay (I had not obtained permission before posting the fliers, so I had to beg the Dean’s pardon)–Sponsoring two book tables at college filled with free Christian literature–Handing my college professors Christian apologetics books to read and seeing them politely accept them (only one professor ever sent me a critique of the book I had given him)–Obtaining copies of slides that a prominent creationist at the Institute for Creation Research had used in his lectures, and using them to preach the gospel of creationism to several Ph.D. chemists at a major pharmaceutical company where I worked as an assistant one summer (the Ph.D.s were kind enough to let this eager young Christian undergrad preach away, then asked a few polite questions; one lab tech was converted)–Driving while praying that I might get to a prayer meeting on time (but instead getting into a fender bender)–Handing out evangelistic tracts at someone’s wedding and questioning the minister who performed the ceremony to see if he was “saved” or not (I doubted he was)–Being concerned whether I had done enough to lift up Jesus, God, and His Holy Word so that everyone around me might hear and respond to His wonderful plan of salvation.
Part of the attraction for me was not only to live and worship as a “Born Again Christian,” but to learn as much as I could about Christianity, the Bible, history, philosophy, psychology, ethics and science in order to have a ready defense for the hope that lay within me, and for my particular Protestant Evangelical understanding of the Bible. But the more I learned, the more I realized how much there was left to learn, and what types of controversies each of my particular beliefs had raised among Christians that held different views in the past (and present), and how varied the answers to each question became when viewed from different theological, historical, and rational angles.
For those who wish to read an even more complete account of how I entered, then gradually left, “the fold” (along with nearly three dozen first-hand stories of others who did so, including Billy Graham’s best friend and co-evangelist in “Youth For Christ,” Chuck Templeton) please see, Leaving the Fold (Prometheus Books, 1995, paperback edition 2003). Or send me an email, and I can send you my chapter from that book.
Cheers!
Edward T. Babinski
Comment by: Doug
14Hemant,
As far as the tax exempt business is concerned, what you observed has been practiced in some black churches for decades. I am not at all a fan of either Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, but they are trying to get it made legal for all churches to be able to do what you saw, and guess what is hitting the fan? I think it should be legal (for issues of free speech) but I do not think churches should do it.
As far as the segregation thing, it is worse than that. Churches are mostly divided, even in the black church, along socio-economic lines. Levels of education and income are two of the biggest predictors of where a person will attend church. Even doctrine takes a back seat to these issues. The division along racial lines is somewhat acceptable because that can be about culture and the bible does not say that we are to become culturally homogenized. But the bible does talk about welcoming the poor and weak. In my mind, this is a far more serious failing of the church in America. The wealthy churches, white or black, tend to build their big buildings and empires while the poorer churches and their people, black or white, are left to struggle on their own. It should not be thus.
Doug
Comment by: Mike Clawson
15It’s illegal for any church, white or black, to tell their people how to vote. (Actually not technically “illegal”… just required if a church wants to keep their tax exempt status. Churches can say whatever they want as long as they’re willing to pay Federal income taxes - which raises all kinds of questions about why we should be required to pay for our right of free speech).
But as Doug rightly noted, black churches have been ignoring this rule for decades, ever since Dr. King and the Civil Rights movement of 1960’s. How do they get away with it? Well, what politician in their right mind would want to be accused of letting a black church be punished for speaking out on issues of racial justice? It’d be careers suicide. So the government usually tends to look the other way when it comes to black churches.
While I understand some people’s concerns about the separation of church and state, personally I feel that churches ought to be free to speak out on any issue that they choose to without penalty. For the government to restrict what churches can or can’t talk about violates basic principles of free speech IMO.
I think it also severely restricts churches from speaking out on issues of justice and compassion that are essential to Christ’s gospel message. For instance, if pastors and churches hadn’t been willing to speak out about political issues of racial justice forty years ago the Civil Rights movement would have never gotten off the ground.
So as much as I dislike the politics of the Religious Right, I think they, along with any other religious group, ought to have the right to speak out on whatever issues they feel are important to their beliefs - regardless of race or political leaning. After all, there’s no law that says that anyone has to actually listen to them.
Mike
Comment by: Nutrideath
16Hemant,
I just discovered your blog today by reading about you & OTM in the WSJ. And I must say, it is an interesting concept for you to be visiting churches the way you are. I only read this one entry (on Salem Baptist), but it prompted me to want to reply.
First off: politics in church. From your description it sounds as if the main message at Salem Baptist is a political one. Either voting for a particular candidate or working to effect change for the black community. You seemed ok with that, but several other posters seemed vaguely disturbed by it, just not sure exactly what was wrong with it (except one did point out that it is illegal, just not enforced).
This is a good example of using the Bible as a gauge of what is right or wrong. Notice the following scripture, where Jesus speaks to his true followers:
John 15:19 (KJV) - “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” (Being “not of the world” includes staying clear of its politics. See also John 18:36.)
Second: the politics of this particular church (and many, many others) include racial segregation. It is considered a “black church,” & much of what is preached there has to do with helping or promoting the black community. You mentioned that you felt this was a “safe, happy haven.” That is good, I suppose.
But, what is it that God wants? Does He want many churches, divided racially & working against one another? Each church urging its members to vote a certain way to promote their race’s interests? No, obviously not. As a matter of fact, notice:
Acts 10:34, 35 (English Standard Version) - So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
Just so you know, I am white. I don’t have anything against blacks, but a church should not claim affiliation with God and at the same time promote a particular political view or particular race. In essence, they’re claiming that their biased views are God’s views too.
The only real, solid & trustworthy way to look into the mind of God is thru the Bible. A preacher can preach anything — whether it agrees with the Bible or not; whether it serves his own purposes or God’s. Can you trust a particular preacher? The way to tell is by checking what he preaches against the Bible.
Nutrideath
Comment by: brett
17Hi Hermant,
You sound like a rational, philosophical guy. You might find philsopher and New Testament scholar William Lane Craig’s website intellectually stimulating (includes discussions on atheism and theism; life of Jesus; resurrection/miracles- history or fiction?). I’d be curious to know what you think. Take care:
Brett
William Lane Craig’s website:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/
Comment by brett — March 9, 2006 @ 8:23 pm
Comment by: Ken Glassmeyer
18. . .good thing God is a nontemporal kind of guy. I would hate to think He is sitting around on Sundays tapping His heavenly wristwatch and frowning down on us.
Comment by: Jody Day
19Have you considered visiting a Mormon church? I think you would find it quite different then some you have visited.
Comment by: tj
20Why do we ’segregate’ ourselves in churches?
It is primarily a culture, thing. Like it or not, people are made different. Personalities (introverts, extroverts,) color, (you name it) appearance, culture etc. Wouldn’t it be boring otherwise! ANyway, people naturally seek like minded and similiar people. THey feel ‘comfortable’ there. Remember how uncomfortable you felt being one of the only non-blacks there?
Unfortunately you cannot force integrate.
But know that in Christ ‘there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free’ and that he sees us all the same.
Unfortunately the Born again Christian is still not perfect untill resurected or raptured. There will always be self inposed segregation until Jesus returns and that is okay, as long as we remember we are brothers and sisters in Christ and dont think we are better because we are (name your difference).
Comment by: david
21I don’t think I remember exactly when I began to question the existence of God. But I do remeber I always questioned authority even God.I remember in catachism class while studying the fall of man I asked our pastor why God was so angry at the devil, after all he didn’t lie to anyone. Unfortunately I never got an answer that satisfied me. In many way I think my concept of spirituality is beyond the church I went to. All chuches I went to seemed to beleive their God is male (I never asked about this). I was taught God is all powerful, and eternal existing before anything including sex and sexual identity therfore in my understanding God doesn’t hve or need a sex.I cannot beleive in a God thatis male or female. Although he does everything for our benefit perhaps making himself accesable to people who would have certainly rejected a female or asexual god Also for some reason when I have heard pastors asked about what hell is like I have always heard it compared to physical pain. I don’t think it was ever perfectley explained to me if heaven and hell are physical places.As a christian woudln’t the thought of being without God be painful itself. I beleive that hell would be better compared to emotional pain. I cannot beleive in a physical heaven or hell. Finally there is on bible verse or verses I half remeber it went something like “and he has turned his face from your evil deeds” this to me combined with the knowledge that he is all knowing and all seeing creates a mental image of a young girl in a movie theater watching a horror movie that is way too intense for her, and closing her eyes for the scary parts. That is not a very powerful image and I am not sure it’s the image I want for my image of God. I want a more powereful God and I want one I understand.
Comment by: Jackie
22I, like Nutrideath, just found your blog. I was “born-again” at an impressionable age of 19. Yet now, at 41, I question my learned beliefs of God. I am a Native American (notice the politically correct reference of my race). I appreciate Nutrideaths statement:
I have been told by “Christians” that all of my ancestors went to hell because they did not know God. Have any of you researched the native peoples beliefs before the introduction of Christianity? How could these people be forsaken because they did not know Jesus? Believing in a god, whether it is God or the Creator, is a personal belief that does not stem from just the Bible. Who put the Bible together? Why did some cultures accept versions that differ? Because we are all fallible, opinionated, self-seeking INDIVIDUALS! I can not believe that any GOD would have it any other way. We should not accept that fallable people put Gods words in only one book and forsake knowledge that we have learned in other ways.
Great idea you had for bringing an atheist in to your conversations!
Comment by: Lucas
23I haven’t read all of the entry, and I haven’t read all of the posts that have followed, so I apologize in advance if anything I say is redundant.
I know that where I’m from (both my home in Ottawa, and my student home in Kingston) there is a significant population of Chinese people who are (using the slang term) FOB - fresh off the boat. So there are Chinese churches where the services are in Chinese so that they can follow.
The segregation of blacks and whites in churches is a simple fact of history, and I would consider it an artifact that should be extinct but isn’t because people are stubborn.
However, I don’t have too much of a problem with it so long as it doesn’t become the same thing as the denominations thing, where they become elitist and exclusive, and they look down on other churches. That just sucks.
Comment by: Sharon
24All politicians seem to want to attend black church services, a fact clearly illustrated during the last presidential primaries. The initiator of this seems to be the politicians themselves, not the church or pastor.
In fact, Hemant later refers to comments by the pastor in which he discourages the people from voting for their visiting politician–perhaps a bit racist because, he says, you should be voting for people of your own race not a Greek.
I think I am pretty safe in saying that this church did not invite this wealthy, Greek banker to address them. The man (and all politicians who use the black churches like this) is a shameless opportunist.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
25I prefer not to comment on all the political/sociological/cultural/economic observations that you made, Hemant. But you did spot one egregious (to me) issue on which I congratulate you. I refer, of course, to the whole middle-verse-of-the-Bible trope.
The simple fact is that the Bible was not originally written with chapters or verses…or punctuation for that matter. Those things were added much later for the convenience of readers, not as an insider’s guide to the hidden mysteries of….whatever.
And someone else observed that it matters, too, which version of the Bible you read. The Catholic Bible includes a number of books the Protestant Bible does not. And, of course, the Jews don’t include the NT.
So, “Way to go!” Way to spot silliness.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Carrie
26Hemant, Thank you for all of your effort. What disturbed me in your writings was how the Rev. Meeks is encouraging a culture of victimization to motivate.(The historic revisions were also unacceptable.) His sermon seems more appropriate for a Rainbow/Push Coalition Event then Church
Comment by: Life in student ministry » I wanna hire an atheist, too!
27 03/14/06 9:21 AM | Comment Link |[...] Man, I wish I could hire an atheist off ebay to critically evaluate my church’s ministry. That kind of information would be invaluable. Looks like I’ll just have to keep up with the evaluation of Salem Baptist Church instead and make generic applications to my church. Permalink Trackback Print This Article E-Mail This Article [...]
Comment by: Jazzeykitten
28This is the first post I’ve read so far (which I loved btw), so I’m sorry if I’m repeating a question. Will the be a visit to Jehovah’s Witnesses? Being raised that way(even though I left 5 years ago), I’m totally interested to see a “write-up” on them. lol Thanks! :)
Comment by: jan
29I agree with you on this segregation thing. I wonder why more whites don’t intergrate Salem?
What do you think?
Comment by: Q
30About the segregation thing, I’ve found that a lot of white churches think that the black churches are the ones segregating, because they only play their own kind of music and have all black leadership and spend more time singing then preaching the word. And of course black people (and yellow and red people) are always welcome in their church.
As a non-black and non-white person who has been a part of both a black church and a white church, I honestly don’t think it’s about race. It’s about relating to your culture. Example: I went to a predominantly white school, and one of the comlaints I often heard was “Why do all the black people sit together at lunch? Why do all the Korean Americans sit together at lunch? If you all want this to be a more ‘multiculturally minded’ school, why are you segregating yourselves?” This question was often simply answerable by this question: “If you for some reason went to a historically black university as one of the 26 white students there and knew no one, what table would you naturally be drawn to in the cafeteria?”
I think that white people in America generally forget that they have a distinct culture because they’re the powerful majority. The majority of things cater to their culture, so they come to see it as the norm. So their white church is not a ‘white church,’ it’s just a church. But a predominantly black church is obviously a black church. They say they are welcoming to anyone of any race, but they don’t realize that the people of other races who choose to stay at their church have to assimilate to their culture to a certain extent in order to have an equal part in the church. And then we become the token non-white people who are living proof that the church really is multicultural. “Because, see? We have black people and some asians and some others in our church!”
I believe that the church in America is generally segregated because white people are less likely to go to a church without white leadership there. No one would accuse a white person going to a church with white leadership of going to their church based on race. Were white people more willing to subject themselves and their faith into other cultures in which they might have to learn to speak other languages that don’t come naturally to them, I think that the church as a whole in this country would be a different thing altogether. As it is, black leadership usually means black congregation. (I know, I know, there are some megachurches with black pastors who have white people in their churches.)
One weird dilemma of the church in terms of culture has always been music. What do you think of that, Hemant? Even white churches split over music style. I can assure you as to how big this is in that I’ve found that 100% of the non-white people at my church (a white church) including myself like rock music. Which means that we’re okay with the ‘worship music,’ which is very rockish n rollish. Not that we totally connect with it, but we like it and can ‘worship’ to it. One friend from church, who is black and would consider herself Afrocentric (but is into white rock music), agrees that the majority of black and other non-white people at our church have two things in common: we’ve had enough experience in being immersed in white culture and enjoy rock music. How shallow are we? Or are we? At the end of the day, we’re getting closer to God in spite of our shallowness and cultural idiosyncracies.
Comment by: Gunny
31I just saw a PBS show on this church, found this site as I googled the church, and I like the comments made by the Off the map writer. It is honest, reminds me of my dad,… that now unfortunately for him “knows the truth”.
By the way, Look at the focus of all the comments above, “parsing words and phrases” from all these viewpoints, throwing darts and citing imperfections from your own comfort zones. Thats exactly what the church was doing before Vision 2007. They are now doing something ACTIVE, by the way, what are you doing for your community?
And Psalm 118:8 (the center verse of the bible they use) It is better to take refuge in the Lord, than to trust on man.
“nuff said”.
Comment by: Robert
32I am a white person who was very coincidently at this very service, Hemant attended at Salem.I was also a little concerned about my safety and joked to my black friend that he needed to protect me on the way out. Meeks was running down white people severely. I am a member of Willow Creek and was trying to get my south side friend connected with Salem.
I have never seen such blatent politics in church before. Meeks came out on stageafter our now new Illinois state treasurer made his campaign speech from the pulpitand said, ” See what were stuck with to vote for.” …in a derisive tone. Never would any of this happen in my church…critisizing another race, the person who just left the pulpit, the politics…we would not get away with it. I have not been back since. This was in March last year and meeks was saying he did not care that black history month was over he was gonna keep going and boy did he…about how the whites kept screwing the blacks after slavery ended …even when it came to buying the land for that church…a story about the conspiracy of white bankers that would not sell to him the land as “you people have enough over there already”…He had to supposedly get some white people to buy it for him.
The service is 2.5 hours long and meeks would not even let the young children leave to go to the washroom as he did not want them to miss his “history lesson.” What is amazing is that most of this sermon was broadcastlive on local chicago TV. The politics was definitely a violation of IRS tax exempt status that prohibits pulpit politics. My understanding is you cannot have one candidate without the others.
The choir/music was great though. Was a big jubilee celebration…very enjoyable. They do not leave you alone at Salem though, they tried to get me to go up front 3 times and become a member….Did you tell them you were an atheist Hemant?
Personally, I think you are a seeker and a very active one. Keep reading the Bible and God will get you. :)
Hemant… thanks for coming back to Willow last wednesday….great job.
Comment by: cautious
33how cool we got Bulgarian spam
Comment by: Siamang
34Not any more!
Comment by: Friendly Atheist » 2008 » January » 28
35 01/28/08 7:28 PM | Comment Link |[...] This time of the year, a number of pastors (and their churches) get in trouble for endorsing candidates for local, state and national offices. Even when withholding an endorsement, many churches allow the candidates to speak to their congregations. [...]