Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.06.2006 /
From Comment # 10 : Hemant Asks Why?
“The idea is to make you feel as though you are a worthless human being by filling you with guilt for seeking pleasurable things”
“The lights are lowered , the music becomes somber, you’re saddened and would do anything to make that saddness go away. You are unable to see the dynamics at work”
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Comment by: seeker
1 03/6/06 1:58 PM | Comment Link |Better put this in context - who said this? Whose experience is this? My church is upbeat and lively, while being able to address serious life issues, and provide God’s wisdom for being successful in a spiritual and personal sense.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
2 03/6/06 2:06 PM | Comment Link |I think the characterization is an unfortunate and unfriendly one. That may describe how the writer sees it from outside of the frame of reference of a Christ-follower, but it does not describe how I, and most of those I know who are Christ-followers, experience it. It seems more considerate to allow others who disagree with me to express what drives them rather than characterizing it myself in an unkind fashion. That is certainly my hope for my interaction on this blog (and in my life).
Rick L in TX
Comment by: fran
3 03/6/06 2:38 PM | Comment Link |The post prior to this and part of this original quote is missing . Placed in the right context this is the typical salvation station scenario. Refer to comment #9 and #10 to gain the proper perspective . With substantial amounts of compunction a whole series of events is set into motion . It is play acting designed to humble the audience and sadden the participants . Solemn music, extended arms, the preacher pleading, the choir holding hands , the lights dimmed, Pretend God is whisked in via the angelic transport via the holy ghost at the congregations request and bingo bango the supernatural ghosts are among us in this place, . Lifting those horrible sinners from their pews and whisking them up to the front where they , in all of their tear drenched wonder declare , I am saved from that dog on devil . Blood God loves me more than anyone. It’s Hollywood magic at its finest. It’s hocus pocus . In the very beginning it is a known fact that most of the followers of christ were illiterate pilgrims and easy to fool. I am convinced the same holds true today. That is not to say there isnt intelligence but most who possess it within the church do so to benefit for themselves in the long run. Some make declarations so that they can get along in the business community and/or in government offices where they are so eagerly ready to profess the faith they know literally little about. I would bet anyone that if you walked up to the person you elected but know little about to quote you 4 or 5 bible verses few would be able to do so yet they know there constituents make those christian declarations so its monkey see monkey do. Oh sure ,sure there are exceptions to the rule but not many I would bet . Did you know that nationwide over 360 Christian Pastors and/or aides were arrested for sexual predatory offenses ( misdameanors and felonies alike ) That comes from the ” Freethinkers Press ” They compiled the police blogs and did the research
Comment by: Ir
4 03/6/06 4:12 PM | Comment Link |An observation based on what fran wrote:
Blood God
I think the concept of God needing a blood sacrifice seems rather weird and barbaric and nasty to people who aren’t Christians. It’s pretty hard to understand why God would need something so gruesome. Why He can’t just forgive, if forgiveness is His goal.
Comment by: Texan
5 03/6/06 4:24 PM | Comment Link |That’s not why I go to church-not to say that sometimes gloomy days don’t exist as a spiritual experience-. Certain denominations have certain types of tones from my experience. I heard it once said that “Jews invented guilt, but Catholics perfected it.”–it’s a joking statement. :-)
I think there has to be more to this life than what I can see. I think I still have to learn and grow into my potential. I love a teaching church. I love learning about all kinds of things. So if I can find a church that will teach me and challenge me and that I can challege, I will be attracted to it.
I’m not talking about mindless learning, accepting whatever is spoon fed me, real teaching changes a persons life because they learn and think new thoughts, independent thoughts. If the thoughts happen to align themselves with my teacher, great. If they don’t, great. That’s one of the biggest reasons I love this website too. I’m learning from it and it’s changing me for the better.
One of the hardest things for me to learn as a Christian, one of my biggest struggles is that I am loved unconditionally by God. I thought for a long time that I was too bad of a person for a God to love. I don’t know if I would ever want to go somewhere that taught I was worthless. There’s a lot more freedom to a Christian life than most people are aware of, I think. I don’t think a worthless feeling was their ultimate goal in the above quote, but I wasn’t there to see it.
I also wonder if some churches try to force a spiritual experience every week. Opening the door to allow room for an experience is one thing, but setting the stage, so to speak, feels to me like forcing God to show up (and if he’s an almighty powerful deity, no one tells him what to do) Like using the lights and the music to evoke a somber feeling…Perhaps it’s needed for some folk, but I’ll let God tell me I need to change me when he deems it neccessary, not a soundstage.
Thanks for listening, er, reading.
Comment by: Ir
6 03/6/06 5:18 PM | Comment Link |For years I went to church to worship God and learn about God in the company of other Christians. I looked forward to church; it was a special time in my week.
After I developed serious doubts about my faith, I was going for different reasons. I intentionally inwardly detached myself from what was going on.
I wouldn’t have said that I was being guilt-tripped or emotionally manipulated before; yet, I felt much more safety and freedom once I became inwardly detached. So, maybe I was being manipulated to some extent, without realizing it. And I wasn’t in churches where the leaders particularly ‘worked the crowd’; what went on at my church was fairly typical.
Although I liked the freedom of not having to worry about what God was saying to me through the sermon, being at church as a detached observer rather than a participant became boring after a while and I couldn’t justify using my time that way any more, so I stopped going.
Comment by: skikid
7 03/6/06 5:42 PM | Comment Link |Church… well I guess I go because it’s the best way I know to explore faith. I don’t by any means think it is the only way to do that but it seems to be what works best for me. I like simpler services, I am really uncomfortable with the big bands and multiple projector screen type services (although I have only been to a handful). I look forward to seeing my friends, although, I see them through out the week so as much as I love them they are not the central reason for going. Church is a time for inspiration and renewal, a time for asking questions and exploration.
Comment by: Stephan
8 03/6/06 6:24 PM | Comment Link |Another way to look at this question is this: If I stopped going to church, what would I miss? I would greatly miss the music. I sing in the choir and help lead the congragational singing, and I would not want to give that up. I would miss seeing my friends in that context. I would miss the opportunity to explore God’s word from someone else’s perspective. I would miss having my children learn how much God loves them. I would miss an opportunity to serve others with the talent God has given me. I would miss a shared experience of faith, where people I may or may not choose to share time with in a social context can come together to celebrate our love for God.
Fran, I am sorry you are so bitter toward the church, and toward God. I invite you to read through the entries on this blog and spend some time getting to know us here. You might find that Christians are really ok once you get to know them.
Comment by: fran
9 03/6/06 6:34 PM | Comment Link |Hope and faith are the primary catch alls.When something doesnt sound right it’s because you don’t have enough faith. Faith is an intangible. It covers a wide variety of variances. The word itself is neither here nor there. It’s meaning is totally subjective .What healed my ailing mother, was it my “faith” or was it the resurgence of her immune system. It’s totally subjective . Was my sons cancer cured because we had “faith” or was he initially misdiagnosed . Most Christians have a cognitive dissonance that buffers their perception of truth ie… “Only God Knows” is one familiar quote , there are many more. I’m not dissing religion , I’m only trying to open the eyes of those who rely on it more than they should for answers to real questions . We all need to have a realistic view so that we can separate church ( supernaturalism ) and state ( realism )
Comment by: fran
10 03/6/06 6:52 PM | Comment Link |Stephan, In my opinion there is no God . Gods have been around for eons of time . God only exists because you will him to exist . There is no other reason he would or could exist . I call the Christians pretend god the blood god because he always seemed to want the blood of animals to appease him yet he knew that the blood of animals didn’t appease himself all that much . Then much later god prayed to himself to “take the cup “away from himself though he himself knew that he had planned this from the beginning and he knew that even he himself couldn’t save himself from himself even though he himself was omnipotent and omniescient etc. In accepting this he said in effect “not my will ,but my will. which is a little confusing don’t ya think. ( It’s all just a fairy tale, with golden gates and streets and tales of angels and saints and ghosts and spirits . Stephan, You need to stay with your friends. It’s good to be around people you care about . I am fortunate like you . I have friends and family and I am loved . Just because we don’t believe in pretend gods and ghosts doesnt mean we don’t feel love for those folks nearest to us.
Comment by: Ir
11 03/6/06 7:08 PM | Comment Link |fran, however it happened, I’m glad that your mother and son were healed from their illnesses.
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
12 03/6/06 7:21 PM | Comment Link |Christians in all kinds of cultures worship God in the way they know according to their culture. In a third world nation there would be no lowering of lights, no theatrical performance to entertain the entertainment-addicted Westerner. I think caution is needed in assessing the American expression of worship as being insincere or contrived. Does hype happen? Of course, but not always. Yes, the music plays and the lights are often dimmed to create an atmosphere, just as a candle lit dinner with soft music in the background creates ambiance at a nice restaurant. Is it manipulation? Depends on motive…
It will always take faith to believe in the existence of God. Fran’s observations are open to debate; the humanity of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus is an enigma that two millineum of scholars are still trying to wrap their brains around. Intellectual assessment is important to evaluating any system of faith, but at the end of the day, it is the shadow of faith that connects the seeker to God.
Comment by: everett
13 03/6/06 7:40 PM | Comment Link |Just a few questions for Fran. what is faith? what is love? what translation did you use for not my will but my will. no version of the Bible have i read did it say that.
To Hemant thank you for your insightfulness. i have had many of the same questions you have had and i grew up in the church. i have found my answers by reading the Bible and by reading christian literature. it is hard to answer all your questions at one time. i am not hear to answer any sorry. I had to find my own answers in my own time. To me that is what is special about Christianity. To be a follower of christ. It is my personal relationship with Jesus Christ that keeps me going day to day.
Comment by: Lynn I.
14 03/6/06 9:55 PM | Comment Link |Fran,
I think some of your fellow post-ers are taking some of you comments a little to literal. Its obvious that you have a flair for the dramatic and maybe that’s intentional to make your point. I do think on a blog like this one; whose goal is for open an honest dialogue between believers and non-believers to further some understanding of each other’s belief system, that some restraint might be needed or at the very least why you believe the way you do.
For example, can you explain why you made the following comment? From fran: “The idea is to make you feel as though you are a worthless human being by filling you with guilt for seeking pleasurable things”
I’d be interested in knowing.
Comment by: fran
15 03/7/06 4:57 AM | Comment Link |Again, That statement was shortened considerably .Initially, it said compunctiously a whole series of events is set into motion . By shortening the original writing one is trying to peel away the real intent of the writer (me) Anyway, Why the need for all of the drama in churches . Why not just say hey this is a great god so come down and accept him for what he is and how he’s portrayed in his written word but first without any interpretive dialouge you should read his word and see if it fits right with you. If not , you need to sit down and ask yourself why? I did , I even went as far as to take the entire home study bible course from Liberty University. I am a graduate with a certificate,but it never sat well with me. Without the supernatural ghostly element in my opinion religion offers very little in the way of practical support for the people . My dad had an 8th grade education and when he wanted to explain things to me sometimes they sounded so simplistic and I used to think boy is that dumb, which is the way of most teens, but he used terms like ” Big I and little you ” when explaining the diversity amongst people . I never understood till I was older . Churches have motive and unless they fill those pews they are worthless. Everyone who falls for the compounded lies have motive from one degree to the other. As for the explanation of faith read and try to comprehend the first few lines I wrote then with that in mind critique the entire paragraph and Ir the mother and son were just hypotheticals, but thanx
Comment by: Debbie
16 03/7/06 6:26 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant, it’s me again. I just want to say I never leave church feeling worthless. I was worth dying for, why would I feel worthless. I struggle at times, but that’s because we live in a sinful world. However, knowing Christ I know my future is bright and hopeful. Hugs to all and have a great day!
Comment by: fran
17 03/7/06 7:33 AM | Comment Link |Debbie, No one said that , read the blogs please and don’t take things out of context Paying close attention to detail is what education is about. Supernaturalism fosters wander and awe, after all it’s make believe to some extent . The golden streets , the gates of gold etc. . I wonder if there is a relationship between the two.
Comment by: Winn
18 03/7/06 9:09 AM | Comment Link |mother fran, play nice.
Comment by: fran
19 03/7/06 1:40 PM | Comment Link |Somehow I feel that Christians think that they are the only people capable of love on any level. Why is that? That would be a good topic this evening . Let’s explore Love …..
Comment by: Rick L in TX
20 03/7/06 3:23 PM | Comment Link |Speaking only for myself (but sensing that nearly every Christian with whom I am acquainted would agree - and only saying “nearly” to avoid an absolute statement), I do not believe that only Christians are capable of love on any level.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: Lynn I.
21 03/7/06 3:53 PM | Comment Link |Fran,
Got some stuff to do this evening, but I will be back later tonight. I look forward to hearing more of your opinion - keep it a little lighter though for those people who take you to literally.
Comment by: ELA
22 03/10/06 1:38 PM | Comment Link |The idea is most certainly not to make one feel worthless. It’s called conviction. We are by no means worthless to God. How can we be? He took the time to form every single molecule of our bodies. There is no reason to feel guilty if those “pleasures” are not wrong. In my church, no “lights are lowered.” We do have an invitation, during which we sing a hymn and people are invited to come down the aisle or pray about any decision they might have made. Music is very powerful; especially the words. God uses different things to convict us. This conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. But take the music away, keep the lights at full blast, and you can still be filled with the deep sadness of sin and knowing that you need a Savior.
Comment by: Kirk
23 03/10/06 10:47 PM | Comment Link |Hello to all. I am truly exited to see a civil coversation taking place between intelligent parties.
Hement,
I started to go to church to fill a need that I had. I needed a new start, different friends etc etc. No I go to be there for others and to somehow connect with God by connecting with people. Indeed church can sometimes be a somber place. When I examine my life at the alter and realize the mistakes that I have made it can be truly saddining. But through that same experience I am immediately in touch with God’s grace and mercy. I know he has my best interests in mind. The Bible teaches me ” not to consider myself more highly that I ought but to examine myself with sober judgemnt”. This I do on a weekly basis.(sometimes more often)Church gives me the chance to look at my reflection in the mirror of God’s grace. I feel refreshed,hopeful and optomistic. No fairy tales, no nonsense just a face to face encounter with the Living God. Why he chose the venue of Christ I cannot fully comprehend. But I do know in my heart of hearts that it is true. The proof to me is the more that I apply His precepts to my life the bettter my life is. Not necessarily in a material sense but in a peaceful “abundant life” sense. Just like Jesus promised.
Comment by: Ir
24 03/11/06 5:00 AM | Comment Link |Hi Kirk,
I already have a ‘peaceful and abundant’ life as long as I exercise and eat healthily and structure my time well, which are precepts I came up with myself, for myself.
So…I don’t need God’s precepts. Mine are working just fine.
Comment by: Ir
25 03/11/06 6:17 AM | Comment Link |Hey, here’s an interesting list of why people go to church
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
26 03/12/06 5:41 PM | Comment Link |Why do I go to church? Lot’s of reasons, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned them yet. And Fran’s suggestions, whether simply intended as dramatic rhetoric or the cynical beliefs of someone whose been somehow burned, are not even close to the mark.
I go to church because it appears to me from the Bible that God appreciates the collective worship of people who love Him. (And I suspect that declaring our worship is good for man, too, though that is another topic.)
I go to church because I believe that God has called me (just as He calls all of His children) to minister to others. And some of the people to whom I believe I am called to ministerr to are in church. (Of course, others of the people I believe I am called to minster to are not in church. I meet them elsewhere.)
And I go to church because from time to time I have found that God uses something there — music, sermon, another person — to minister to me.
Finally, I go to church for the same reason I go to my favorite “watering hole” — because I I enjoy the social contact. My favorite “hymn” which *ought* to apply to the church is:
(Everyone! Sing along!)
Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
And they’re always glad you came;
You want to be where you can see,
Our troubles are all the same;
You want to be where everybody knows your name.
You want to go where people know,
People are all the same;
You want to go where everybody knows your name.
Tom in Cheers, er, Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
27 03/12/06 6:44 PM | Comment Link |Tom,
Please don’t assume people like fran or myself were burned by the church. I was not. Do you think it’s possible that your God created me as an atheist? Just possibly we could agree on that?
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
28 03/12/06 8:02 PM | Comment Link |TXatheist,
THAT is the $64,000 question. (Oops, just showed how old I am. ;-) ) Before I go further, though, I must apologize if I have given offense. That was not my intent. I know a few folk who were raised in religious traditions and who later kicked over the traces. In some cases it has been a failure to see the point. In some cases it has been a failure of the church to live up to the truth. In some cases it has been a failure of the church to live out the love. But, especially in the latter two cases, and the individuals I know, there seems to have been almost a sense of anger at the church for not having lived up to its advertised standards. That is what I refered to. If it doesn’t apply, please accept my apology.
But in answer to your question, No, I do not think so. I believe strongly that God created man with free will. Why, is a whole ‘nother post. But the idea of a God, or anyone, who created something anti-thetical to their nature seems a logical fallacy to me. Am I missing something?
And, gee, we couldn’t agree anyhow, could we? Doesn’t your question imply that there IS a God there who created? ;-)
But seriously, I would think that anyone who is a logical secular humanist — I don’t know if you would so self-describe — would have to insist on some level, I would think a high level, of self-determination; what I, as a Christian, would call free will.
Fascinating question. How does it look from your vantage point?
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
29 03/16/06 5:32 AM | Comment Link |Tom,
I agree you believe in god and he gave free will to you. Free will is religious term with connotation. Do I have the ability to make right and wrong decisions? Sure, but I was taught that, it’s not given to me when I’m born. That’s my vantage point.