Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.07.2006 /
Here’s an example of what success looks like for us at Off The Map
From Comment # 18 Community Check In
“I’ve been following Hemant’s story since e-bay. I was intrigued with his openness and his interest in the idea that there could be a God. I actually thought that the purpose here was for Hemant to find God and for me to witness it or in some way play a part in it.
However, God has used this situation to teach me. Even as a Christian I have not had a heart or understanding of relating to “normal” people; it was about converting them (which isn’t my job). I’m so excited about the way God is changing my perspective and life through this dialogue.”
Leave a Reply
Comment by: fran
1 03/7/06 4:42 PM | Comment Link |“YOU” are changing your own perspective on life through this dialogue. Christians have it backwards in my opinion. It is YOU that creates this GOD that you worship. It cannot be any other way for without your participation there is no god to mention. At least as you envision him/her/it No two perspectives could ever be alike. You are actually worshiping a more desirable version of yourself. That’s not to say that there is anything wrong with the current version of you for only you can speak to that.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
2 03/7/06 5:44 PM | Comment Link |Your comment, fran, is evidence of the comment I made earlier today…
Ir asked Why do [some] Christians think they know more about gay people than gay people do? How can that even be possible? It’s so incredibly invalidating having someone tell you “I’m right about you and you’re wrong about you”.
Dare I observe that there have been atheistic posters here who have told Christians that they understand Christian faith and worship better than Christians do? Apparently this gate swings both ways. Just a thought.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: Lynn I.
3 03/7/06 7:14 PM | Comment Link |fran,
As an atheist you see it as an individual changing themselves or their perspective, but as a Christian I feel more like Jim does. Each situation I go through I believe God uses to teach me something or to help me grow as a believer. OTM has impacted me in many ways and its helping me to broaden my perspective about non-believers and to grow deeper in my own faith. As I see questions pop up here, I find myself going to the Bible to read about a particular topic. Sometimes I share it, but more often I don’t - I just keep it for me. I don’t know if I’m becoming more “normal”, as Jim puts it, but I certainly feel like I am becoming a better person -wanting a better understanding of those who believe the polar opposite of me. I’m not quite sure why though? I certainly haven’t tried to convert anyone here -
I am curious about the feelings of the non-believers posting here - are you participating in the blog for dialogue and growth or just to state your case?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
4 03/7/06 7:25 PM | Comment Link |Great question Lynn
“I am curious about the feelings of the non-believers posting here - are you participating in the blog for dialogue and growth or just to state your case?”
Comment by: fran
5 03/7/06 8:18 PM | Comment Link |I suppose it’s a little of both Jim, otherwise there would be no reason to visit . It is my contention ,and in many cases backed up by reasonableness and rational inquiry, that there is no justification for believing in a GOD in order to soothe my ego and create some sort of unrealistic comfort level contrived by a vividly concocted imagination. I am absolutely convinced that religion has perpetuated an ongoing fairy tale with no basis in fact and fabricated and misled members of the human race for the purpose of monetary gain and absolute control of potentially radical elements of downtroden citizenry . I am also convinced that the intelligent among the religious find comfort in positioning themselves among the majority not because they believe in a fairy tale creator necessarily but because they stand to benefit substantially.
Comment by: Cully
6 03/7/06 9:08 PM | Comment Link |Lynn, I like participating in this sort of dialogue for a couple reasons. First, the concept of religion fascinates me. Myth, story, legend, heroes, archetypes… all that Jungian/Joseph Campbell stuff has been a passion of mine for years. Second like any good discussion it helps me clarify my own points for myself. Like Christians a lot of atheists choose paths because that’s what the rest of the flock has done, without questioning whether it actually is a path we belong on. By discussing those paths with you I am forced to turn my search inward. Do I understand my communities position well enough to defend it? Do I understand my own position within the community’s over-arcing position well enough? Do I agree 100% with my community about school prayer? About the separation of church and state? Can I coherently state to another human being why I choose to take this stand? If I can then I’m pretty assured that I understand it, and I’m on the right path for myself. If someone here brings up a situation that I hadn’t considered then I can learn from that as well. A few new pieces for my puzzle.
There’s also a desire to be a good example of my community. It’s hard to blindly hate a community when you know a member of it. By being here and showing that atheists can be moral, and upstanding, and can calmly debate without recrimination or resorting to name calling, perhaps I can aid my cause. It used to be called “being a credit to your race.”
Comment by: Siamang
7 03/7/06 9:13 PM | Comment Link |I’m here because I’m drawn to the positive message here. I’m moved by the honest outreach and attempt at understanding. I’ll say my 2¢ every now and then, but mostly I’m here reading and considering what others write.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8 03/7/06 9:19 PM | Comment Link |I m here largely for the same reasons as Cully.
I like having my assumptions challenged and my humility tested - it makes my following Jesus feel more real
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9 03/7/06 9:32 PM | Comment Link |Fran-It might help you get more of a hearing if you use the phrase you used in #1 “in my opinion” a lttle more often
Comment by: fran
10 03/8/06 1:57 AM | Comment Link |Doesn’t matter how I’m perceived . I know what I know and I know how I feel. I proved what I needed to prove when my initial statement was simply flipped. In my opinion that is exactly my arguements intent and now you want to exclude me by saying I possess rudeness and you are hurt . Why bother, you have no defense , out!!!
Comment by: fran
11 03/8/06 2:14 AM | Comment Link |Oh and another thing before I sign off . There is no possibility of hating someone you don’t even know . That is imagined dissent and it is necessary in group attacks to justify a contrived position that has weak defenses. It’s the same old song and dance….Supernatural poo poo
Comment by: KSG
12 03/8/06 5:44 AM | Comment Link |Fran,
this dialogue is not accustom to your aggressive tone and to such violent use of satire (such as used in other posts), perhaps you could be more respectful in your tone. That is if you want others to engage you in dialogue.
But if you just want to rant then continue on, you will be respected but perhaps not responded to.
Maybe you could help us understand you by sharing your story?
Comment by: Ir
13 03/8/06 6:23 AM | Comment Link |fran, I would also like to hear more about your journey away from the faith you were raised in - Southern Baptist, I think you said.
Lynn wrote: I am curious about the feelings of the non-believers posting here - are you participating in the blog for dialogue and growth or just to state your case?
As Jim said, this is a great question! It’s really made me think. (Yes, that’s my definition of a good question! : ))
It feels to me like I have ’stated my case’ a lot here — albeit often in the form of questions. Yet, the reason I’m stating my case/asking questions is because I am genuinely interested in the responses from Christians. So I am here for dialogue, definitely. I’m hoping some Christians will understand why I have decided to peel off all the layers of assumptions with which I used to answer those questions and keep the questions instead. The questions are real; I’m not sure whether the assumptions are. Jim seems to understand and that has been very encouraging. It seems that other Christians here are listening and trying to understand — which is also very encouraging to me. I enjoy the comments of atheists but I already know that if they’ve been through a similar thought process to me they understand.
As for growth — I hope I’m always open to growth and I hope I’m growing through the dialogue here. The responses to my first few posts were a learning experience for me, definitely. And I think I’ve continued to learn since then.)
Like Siamang I appreciate the generally positive nature of what is going on here. I have seen and heard lots of instances of Christians promoting misconceptions about atheists among themselves and vice-versa. I’m very happy to see Christians and atheists talking to each other instead of just about each other; I’m glad that most people here seem to be listening.
If anyone seems to be here just to state their case, I suspect that is because in the rest of their life they’ve been under-listened to, and they have a lot of ‘case’ bottled up that hasn’t been heard. People in that situation find it hard to listen until they’ve been heard. If they are listened to enough then the bottled-up ‘unheard case’ inside them starts to dissipate and they will probably start listening, in turn. I think many people do not have the patience to listen to an unheard person until the unheard person has been heard enough to start listening in turn.
I suspect many people are unaware that talking to someone and not listening to them sends a very strong message “My words have more value than yours; I am more important than you; I am worth listening to but you are not”. A Christian may ‘witness’ in the most eloquent terms but if they do it without listening, the hearer will probably hear nothing but implied message above. Since the Christian in some sense represents God, the implied message is “God doesn’t think you’re important enough to listen to”. Which I assume is not at all what the Christian intended to convey, because I’ve never seen that message in the Bible - on the contrary, Jesus is recorded as having emphasized how valuable human beings are to God. (And Jesus didn’t specify “Christians” when he made those comments)
Comment by: Rick L in TX
14 03/8/06 6:54 AM | Comment Link |Ir, your post (above is such good stuff. I suspect that many people here need the reminder to listen, but the observation that the un-listened-to often have a need to vent. Thanks for expanding my world today.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: fran
15 03/8/06 7:05 AM | Comment Link |Man ksg , that’s BS . From the day I was born I’ve been forced to listen to all of the magical bally-hoo nonsense that distorted reality and drove a wedge in the quest for advancement of the human race .I’ve seen men slaughtered ,because hard liners wanted to lift the status of a ghost . So don’t talk to me like I’m some sort of namby pamby in need of your sympathy. You’re just not used to being told like it is point blank.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
16 03/8/06 8:24 AM | Comment Link |Ir
“If anyone seems to be here just to state their case, I suspect that is because in the rest of their life they’ve been under-listened to, and they have a lot of ‘case’ bottled up that hasn’t been heard.”
Is very well put
Comment by: KSG
17 03/8/06 8:25 AM | Comment Link |Not true, Fran.
I’ve been “told like it is point blank” all my life. “Tough love” they called it. I usually find that method to be ineffective.
I’m also not interested in giving you any sympathy (nor am I looking for it). I asked you to tell us your story so I can understand why your tone is at times venomous.
I appreciate that you don’t pull punches so I won’t pull mine. I would guess that at some point in your life you were treated very badly by people who claimed to be Xians and as a result you have a “hate on” for all things Xian.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Comment by: Ir
18 03/8/06 9:41 AM | Comment Link |fran wrote:
fran, you sound angry to me. If so, I can understand why.
Are you angry at the people posting here? They haven’t forced you to listen to anything, have they?
Comment by: Texan
19 03/8/06 9:47 AM | Comment Link |I agree with many of you that this blogsite has caused me to grow in ways I wasn’t expecting….but am delighted to see. I second Rick’s opinion of Ir’s post. It’s a great thought and perhaps one that I overlook way more than I should. To repeat Rick, thanks for expanding my world today Ir. You have a unique quality of discernment about you.
Comment by: TXatheist
20 03/8/06 10:27 AM | Comment Link |I’m going to put my cards on the table as they say. Fran isn’t mad, she’s just blunt and honest. She’s never been mistreated by xians any worse than she’s been treated by anyone else. No bad experiences caused her to be an athiest. I use to be venomous(if you will allow me to repeat that word) because I don’t think xians in general have any idea how hard it is to listen to stuff that…..this is the hard part. I can’t say what it is without crossing the line. Fran chooses to post what I think that’s all. I just tone it down. I’ll call it Flim-flam as the Amazing James Randi would.
Comment by: Ir
21 03/8/06 10:57 AM | Comment Link |TXatheist - isn’t it possible that fran might be blunt, honest and mad (mad as in angry, not as in insane)?
I wouldn’t expect that bad experiences alone made anyone an atheist. It seems to me that going from Christian to atheist requires a re-evaluation of all one’s beliefs.
Comment by: TXatheist
22 03/8/06 11:09 AM | Comment Link |We’ll see whose card hand wins when fran answers:)
Comment by: Ir
23 03/8/06 11:16 AM | Comment Link |Fair enough :)
Comment by: Rick L in TX
24 03/8/06 11:18 AM | Comment Link |fran is blunt and honest. fran is the only one who can tell us if fran is rude. But one can be all those things and still post in a respectful tone instead of rude and offensive. We’ve seen Christians post in a rude and offensive manner and we’ve seen other Christians confront that rudeness. fran does not have to change style of communication but in time some will skip reading and/or replying to fran’s rudeness. That’s not hate, it’s just the old Twain-ism: a cat that sits on a hot stove once will learn not to sit on stoves.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: Rick L in TX
25 03/8/06 11:20 AM | Comment Link |That last word in the top line of my #24 should read mad, not rude. Sorry.
Comment by: Siamang
26 03/8/06 11:21 AM | Comment Link |I don’t know. I’ve had my fill of “fran types” around the internet. I see her name and skip past her post. And I’m an atheist.
I have little patience for people who poke and prod. My advice to anyone posting on any message board: look around and find the general social rules going on. If you find it’s not to your liking, look elsewhere. There are plenty of places on the net where you can have the wild and wooley take-no-prisoners type of interplay you seem to seek. Find them.
Comment by: fran
27 03/8/06 12:14 PM | Comment Link |Siamang is a general conformist and certainly a candidate for change if you xtians are looking for an appropriate candidate for the switch. Perhaps if he crosses over he can go around the country visiting churches and telling how hard it was to exist without the ghostly images of a make believe gods and spirits. :)Speaking fees are high these days Siamang and that includes room and board
Comment by: fran
28 03/8/06 12:17 PM | Comment Link |And oh by the way , I don’t have to apologize to anyone . It’s just that your little boo hoo game doesnt work with me and I would never try and take away your right to choose like the establishment of ghostly religion tries to do with others .
Comment by: fran
29 03/8/06 12:32 PM | Comment Link |Purging for reactions isn’t easy but overall I’ve come up with all sorts of reasons as to why I’m happy being a secular humanist . If you take this entire log and analyze the behavior of those involved you will see just how majority’s abuse power .That was just part of my intent.There is much more to come In addition , all of those christian niceties go out the window and gangland verbal attacks take center stage . We don’t like it we’ll drown em out.God is fostered in the image of the believer instead of the other way around . They create him and they envision his intent. Don’t be fooled!!!!
Comment by: fran
30 03/8/06 12:38 PM | Comment Link |Yeah let’s compartmentalize fran. We did it to the blacks in the slave days. We’ll fit him in a nice neat category , characterize him and ( throw away the key ) I wonder if he’ll miss us then :)
Comment by: Ir
31 03/8/06 12:44 PM | Comment Link |fran, are you enjoying posting here?
Comment by: Albert
32 03/8/06 1:17 PM | Comment Link |To quote Dr. Phil “get over it”. Or from an article written by Robert M Price at http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_apost.htm
-Quote from Max Scheler
“An ‘apostate’ is not a man who once in his life radically changes his deepest religious, political, legal, or philosophical convictions… Even after his conversion, the true ‘apostate’ is not primarily committed to the positive contents of his new belief and to the realization of its aims. He is motivated by the struggle against the old belief and lives only for its negation. The apostate does not affirm his new convictions for their own sake; he is engaged in a continuous chain of acts of revenge against his own spiritual past. In reality he remains a captive of this past, and the new faith is merely a handy frame of reference for negating and rejecting the old.”
Comment by: TXatheist
33 03/8/06 1:19 PM | Comment Link |Fran,
Let me be blunt. Do you ever tread lightly with xians? Rarely? Never?
Comment by: Anonymous
34 03/8/06 2:11 PM | Comment Link |I have been reading silently for quite some time now and my mind is bursting with questions for the atheists. I recognize the peaceful tone of the conversations and do not want to jepordize any of that. Does any one have any insight as to how I might ask some pressing questions without comming across as threatening? Seriously, I am very curious.
Comment by: skikid
35 03/8/06 2:13 PM | Comment Link |I think if you just ask the question and are willing to accept the answer (not try to convince anyone your point of view it the ‘right’ one) then it should be fine.
Comment by: Ron
36 03/8/06 2:19 PM | Comment Link |Sorry about that,
Anonymous is me…Ron
Here is a question, and you will have to forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere and I haven’t read it, this blog has become pretty extensive. Do atheists ever doubt their atheism?
Comment by: Ir
37 03/8/06 2:23 PM | Comment Link |Anonymous, I suggest you just ask. Why do you think your questions would be perceived as threatening? How does one threaten an atheist?
Comment by: Ir
38 03/8/06 2:24 PM | Comment Link |Oh, you did already just ask - never mind! :)
Comment by: fran
39 03/8/06 2:40 PM | Comment Link |Some characters will do it for the money. I think O’hara’s son did it and he quickly became a sought after speaker. I think he charged $1,500 per engagement on the circuit and at one time was booked weekends for 2 full years . That no doubt came with hotel and transportation provisions
Comment by: Siamang
40 03/8/06 2:41 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for the question Ron.
Of COURSE! :-) I don’t think we’d be human if we didn’t doubt ourselves from time to time.
I think it’s healthy. I always counter-argue with myself, just to check if I really believe what I think I do.
Did that help with your question? Or does it raise more questions for you?
Comment by: Siamang
41 03/8/06 2:43 PM | Comment Link |fran, just a question,
If a monkey had a baseball, and flung it really really hard while standing on an astroid, would the baseball come flying back at him the other way? Or would he get flung backward? And if he turned at the right moment, and had a bat, could he hit a home run?
Why or why not? In 5000 words or less.
Comment by: Ron
42 03/8/06 2:44 PM | Comment Link |Both,
Comment by: Ron
43 03/8/06 2:48 PM | Comment Link |How would an atheist say that natural selection has the ability to create creatures with the capacity for faith, hope and love?
Comment by: fran
44 03/8/06 3:08 PM | Comment Link |I had a clinical psych professor in grad school who came up with a wonderful way to evaluate women characteristically. I’ve only shared it with a few friends during my life and all report success 100% of the time. If you are looking for a women of character who will be an intelligent honest companion check her elbows . If they are shiny and impecably clean she’s the girl for you.
Comment by: fran
45 03/8/06 3:13 PM | Comment Link |The same professor taught me another trade trick so to speak . He said that if a client is relaxed during an interview and you notice that his right index finger remains extended during the conversation in all likelihood he is suffering from some sort of organic brain damage that covers a wide range of severity
Comment by: Siamang
46 03/8/06 3:35 PM | Comment Link |That’s a big question, Ron.
For the long answer I’d refer you to Robert Wright’s “The Moral Animal, the New Science of Evolutionary Psychology.”
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0349107041/sr=8-3/qid=1141860300/ref=sr_1_3/102-4544033-8187331?%5Fencoding=UTF8
For the short answer, I’d merely explain that there are survival benefits to human emotion. We are social creatures, because survival of the individual is better assured when the whole family troop works together.
We see it in chimps. We see it in gorillas. We see it to various degrees in all social creatures. Socialization and cultural norms grant a survival benefit. That’s why natural selection favors it.
Comment by: Siamang
47 03/8/06 3:36 PM | Comment Link |I should say “has favored it in gorillas, chimps and humans.” There are clearly some animals which are not social creatures.
Comment by: Ir
48 03/8/06 3:36 PM | Comment Link |Ron wrote:
Whatever is advantageous to a species will be selected for.
Comment by: fran
49 03/8/06 3:50 PM | Comment Link |very good!!!:)WHICH END IS UP? I RAISE DOUBT , IT’S WHAT I DO AND I’M GOOD AT IT.
Comment by: Texan
50 03/8/06 3:58 PM | Comment Link |So would you call yourself a professional doubter?
Comment by: MQ
51 03/9/06 6:26 AM | Comment Link |Fran is kind of a troll, which for those of you who hang around the net is the word for someone who posts specifically to get an emotional rise out of other people, and considers this more gratifying than polite communication. I say this as a fellow atheist.
As for how natural selection could create love: Siamang explains it quite well above. Most people when they do not have their creationist hats on freely admit that the lower social animals can also be loving and faithful (e.g. dogs). However, none of this tells us the *meaning* of love, that is something we must discover for ourselves spiritually. Evolution does not tell us purpose.
Comment by: fran
52 03/9/06 6:31 AM | Comment Link |Ohhhhhh, Can you feel the love tonight:)
Comment by: fran
53 03/9/06 6:33 AM | Comment Link |Sounds like ping-pongs your game MQ . Do you live in CHICAGO by the way :)
Comment by: LBJ
54 03/9/06 8:31 AM | Comment Link |Hmmm….reading the posts and lurking, I am curious as to why atheists and xtians alike have allowed Fran to hijack this section of the website? I am more interested in your mutual dialogue on christianity/atheism/secular huamanism than rants or discussions back and forth with and about one vociferous poster. Funny thing is, Fran’s somewhat assaultive rants are completely reminding me of what I tend to dislike about certain angry vocal proselytizing segments of the faithful. Is that the point? Ooops…now I see how Fran has hijacked the discussion…..I’m writing about her too….sigh.
Comment by: fran
55 03/9/06 8:48 AM | Comment Link |“LBJ” That’s not it at all . You have been here all along under another name and because my style is to answer things bluntly you want to unify this body against me . It’s real world though so there is a lesson to learn. It’s typically done world wide. So thank you for your demonstration and enlightenment regarding the “Truth about Religious demagoguery”!!!!!
Comment by: KSG
56 03/9/06 9:06 AM | Comment Link |Up until a few days ago this diablog was about a conversation not confrontation, but by dismissing outright another person’s beliefs you foster an attitude of intolerance.
Thanks for the reminder. (like I needed another one)
Comment by: Doug
57 03/9/06 9:50 AM | Comment Link |I have noticed in a few of the above entries the old assertion/accusation that xians believe in God because it is a way for us to find or invent comfort for ourselves. Not.
There are certainly some ways in which God comforts us. But at least as often God is more like a poke in the butt with a sharp stick.
Comment by: Stephan
58 03/9/06 9:53 AM | Comment Link |Amen to that, Doug. Sometimes I wish He would leave me along for a while. Just when I start to get comfortable…
Comment by: KSG
59 03/9/06 11:19 AM | Comment Link |Hey, this may come across as weird & preachy, but to all you fellow Xian’s out there I want to throw this your way since I was reading it last night and it struck home with me due to my interaction with this diablog…
I just say it to encourage you to know what and why you believe what you believe.
Comment by: KSG
60 03/9/06 11:22 AM | Comment Link |Oops, I meant to just add the link, not my whole camments, I’ll try again (Jim & Ir, stop laughing)
Here’s the link, biblegateway
(hope I fixed it)
Comment by: Ir
61 03/9/06 12:03 PM | Comment Link |KSG, as far as I’m concerned, if you want to post Bible verses for other Christians, go for it.
(By the way, you weren’t the only one who posted multiple times trying to turn off italics!)
Comment by: fran
62 03/9/06 12:36 PM | Comment Link |Let us pray to the ghost
Comment by: Jim Henderson
63 03/9/06 1:12 PM | Comment Link |fran is fading
Comment by: Texan
64 03/9/06 1:18 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for the link KSG.
Comment by: TXatheist
65 03/9/06 1:25 PM | Comment Link |And what is that supposed to mean? I take it as a compliment. Ungodly? Yes, of course……(insert reasons here)
Comment by: fran
66 03/9/06 1:39 PM | Comment Link |Better phrased unghostly. Freedom to those who can get beyond magic and mysticism and ghosts and spirits that exist only in the minds of those people who mysteriously create them for themselves . God is there only if you create him for yourself, otherwise, pooof he isn’t
Comment by: KSG
67 03/9/06 2:25 PM | Comment Link |TXatheist,
I just found it interesting, that’s all.
By the way, in context, Paul (the writer of 2 Tim) is refering to Xian gnosticism which is very similar to 19th century Enlightenment Methodology which in turn is very similar to The Jesus Seminar’s conclusions & writings.
However, if you choose to take it as a compliment, then hey, so be it.
Comment by: TXatheist
68 03/9/06 3:50 PM | Comment Link |How is xian gnosticism similar to Enlightenment and then similar to teh Jesus seminar? How else could I take godlessness but complimentary:)
Comment by: Kassy
69 03/9/06 5:22 PM | Comment Link |So I’m lurking, reading all this, and its fasinating. fran’s attempts at disruption add some comic relief, but I’m more interested in Ron’s question:How would an atheist say that natural selection has the ability to create creatures with the capacity for faith, hope and love even keeping the discussion to homo sapiens, early man needed faith that the sun would rise every morning, and that spring would follow winter to stay alive. S/he needed hope that the hunt would provide meat, and that the gatherers would find food to keep going hunting and searching for nuts and berries. early woman needed early man’s lust to turn to love in order to raise the children that came from their union, for she could not do it alone. The union had to last until the child was at least 7 years old and minimally able to keep up with the group (which is reputedly the biology behind the “seven year itch” wanderlust in marriages.)
Comment by: Cully
70 03/9/06 7:51 PM | Comment Link |Kassy> If you understood natural selection you’d see that you basically just answered your own question. At least in respect to “love.”
The love that you reference here is parental love and indeed it is a necessary component of any species where the child is born without being fully developed and able to care for itself. (Which includes most mammals.) So as post-birth development became a larger part of the species, those individuals with the capacity to care for their young, (ie to love them) had children who lived to procreate and carry on that genetic predisposition. The human drive towards parental love is in fact so strong that we often feel it for children that don’t belong to us, and even animals outside our species like dogs and cats.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
71 03/10/06 4:40 AM | Comment Link |What is harder to understand and explain is the occasional acts of “unconditional” love, such as the acts and life of people like Mother Theresa, or trying to figure out why Bono would run himself ragged to try and save the lives of starving people who, if you look at things realistically, will for the most part never be saved. I’ll use his example. When he says from the concert stage that he really believes that we can end poverty in 50 years, I want to believe him. My heart leaps in my chest. I want on board. People who do acts of love of THAT sort… THAT I find much harder to believe happens without God.
Fran, I agree that the horrible ways people act in the name of God are just that… horrible. (I think that’s what you were getting at at some point) And I would also point out that when a CHRISTIAN is rude, they have less excuse, since they’re violating Scripture which says “Love is NOT rude.”
I’m not sure that adds to the conversation, so if you all don’t think it does… that’s cool…