Congratulations on a great article. I hope this brings lots more folks to both your site and to Hemant’s personal blog. I also hope some other major newspapers — like the New York Times and USA Today — cherry pick the article. Jim, Hemant, are you ready for O’Reilly?
High marks for drawing attention to your site. I share the opinion that having dialogue with people not sharing similar beliefs is exceedingly valuable, if for no other reason than to foster a cohesive, tolerant community. While this approach is a bit sensational, it’s nice to see action in this direction.
I’ve been following Hemant since the begining, both in fascination and jealousy (my athiesm is still relatively “in the closet” and will most likely stay that way). It’s good to see that the article is bringing to light the situation at hand, and to be honest, I enjoy this website more for the fact that hemant has been fantastic at putting a human face to atheism rather than showing christians what they’re doing wrong.
However, and hemant can correct me, I don’t remember hemant EVER stating anything about “suspecting that he’s missing out on something.” And once again, I find myself saddened by someone putting words into an atheist’s mouth because they don’t bother to listen.
There is this assumption that Atheists are the Great Deniers of God, that we stare Jehovah in the eye and then turn out backs on him, that there is some book of absolute “evidence” that we read and refuse to acknowledge. It’s as if it is assumed we are aligned with Satan…….rather than accepting the fact that maybe, just *maybe*, we just plain of think that through logical reasoning the cornerstones of religion simply don’t jive.
Why is this such an impossible thing for deists to believe and accept?
Jayson you wrote I don’t remember hemant EVER stating anything about “suspecting that he’s missing out on something.” And once again, I find myself saddened by someone putting words into an atheist’s mouth because they don’t bother to listen.
Have you been eavesdropping on every conversation? Rather than jumping to conclusions that simply don’t jive, what don’t we just ask him. Hey hemant - did you say that quote as reported in the WSJ?
Congrats to Jim for the attention. This experiment has certainly put Off-the-map on the map.
Once the throngs show up, and I’m sure they will, I probably won’t do much posting anymore. The dialog is sure to become less civil, and I want no part of that. I’ll keep reading Hemant’s surveys, but that’s probably all.
Jayson,
You know the first thing I would say is that I am sad that that is the way you feel perceived by believers and I think that there is some legitimacy to your perception. I know that some atheists get tired of hearing this but the fact is we are not perfect, we do make mistakes and even worse, offten we do not feel remorse for those mistakes. But the truth is if any of us were perfect we could not go to church because we believe (however flawed it may be) that going to church helps assist in our healing and everyone needs that.
Perhaps you are looking for a more profound response than “Oh we are not perfect” because that can seem like a cop-out. To that, let me say this. Atheists don’t believe in God because they can’t logically wrap their minds around Him or the concepts. Christians believe that once someone has truely encountered the living God, logically, it doesn’t make sense to reject him. We are more alike then people give us credit for. Both feel passionate about what they logically can assertain.
A deist would say, “Why is believing in God so hard for atheists to accept?” If you can answer that question, then you will have the same answer to the question you asked.
Yeah this it should make things more interesting :) … I hope that as an e-community effort we can maintain the civility of this diablog. It is after all why this site is so special. I believe that as a group we can accomplish this, if we continue to listen and not try to change eachother. Maybe I am slighted, I have learned so much here and become more aware of some of my own stereotypes and misconceptions, and I think that is invaluable. I hope that more voices leads only to more learning, listening and dialog.
Jayson, part of the problem is the following Bible passage, which Christians generally understand to mean that all atheists really do know God exists:
Romans 1:18-21
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
(Emphasis mine)
Given the choice between what Christians think this passage means and what atheists say about themselves, many Christians will go with this passage rather than what atheists say.
If you’ve heard Hemant on Way of the Master (the link is on Hemant’s site), the hosts draw heavily on the above passage and presume that when Hemant looks at the world around him, he must know, really, that God exists, because of what he sees.
I know that doesn’t address atheists ‘missing’ something. I expect that derives from some Bible passage(s) also, but I’m not remembering it/them right now.
Ron,
Everyone, atheists and theists, realize no one is perfect. I’d say most of us learn from our mistakes, both sides. We all do not believe church helps us, you may and that’s fine. Atheists have various reasons for not believing but for me personally I do understand the concepts and I don’t believe. I was absolutely a christian once and for anyone to say I wasn’t is not only insulting it’s plain misguided. I’m not so much passionate about my views but content. We are more alike I agree, with the exception of religion.
A friend of mine pointed me to the article today, and I have to say I am grateful. I hope God moves in your life, He’s certainly working through your life. I’m a believer. Grew up in the Bible belt (don’t hold that against me), and I believe that often the American church has missed some of the point. Living for Christ is about serving others, it’s about relationships, it’s about fighting poverty and disease, and it’s about loving people where they are for who they are. I look forward to reading your critiques. I hope that if nothing else, I can grow and learn from your perspective.
Grace and Peace to you,
Ken
Ken~ I wont hold geography against you. I have always heard people refer to the Bible Belt but never knew where exactly it is. So if someone could inform my ignorance that would be great :)
I was absolutely a christian once and for anyone to say I wasn’t is not only insulting it’s plain misguided.
I know what you’re referring to. Many Christians believe it’s impossible for someone who’s a true Christian to become an atheist and so someone like you who says “I was a Christian snd now I’m an atheist” threatens that belief. If what you say is true then their belief is wrong. Since their belief being wrong is evidently something they aren’t willing to consider, they instead decide that there must be something wrong with what you say. Clearly you are now an atheist - they can’t deny that. So they decide to deny that you ever were a Christian.
I think it’s insulting and I’m just waiting for the first person to say that to me. It won’t be someone who I went to church and Bible studies with for years, at least - because they can’t deny I was a Christian. On the whole those people seem to see me as a person who is having some current temporary difficulties with my faith, who is really still a Christian. Perhaps it’s because I still capitalize God ;) I feel I have a lot in common with Christians; however the way I live my daily life and make decisions about it is much more like the way atheists [with a similar life situation and similar personality to me] approach it.
I missed you guys - lost the connection for a day due to storms I guess. Glad to be back.
TX wrote: I was absolutely a christian once and for anyone to say I wasn’t is not only insulting it’s plain misguided.
Ir wrote: I think it’s insulting and I’m just waiting for the first person to say that to me. It won’t be someone who I went to church and Bible studies with for years, at least - because they can’t deny I was a Christian. On the whole those people seem to see me as a person who is having some current temporary difficulties with my faith, who is really still a Christian.
And Ir, I think it’s cool that you still capitalize God - no matter what the other atheists here may say about it. I capitalized Madeline Murray O’Hara!
I don’t question your current belief systems - for either one of you. I respect both of you for being willing to openly and maturely talk about that here. As a Christian, my questions are more related to “how” and “why” you stopped believing? It’s just something I can’t seem to get my mind around. It honestly baffles me! To me its kind of like if you really love someone, how do you just stop loving them? Since we’re all pretty much the same, maybe by understanding you all, I’ll get a better understanding of myself? I don’t know - just throwing that out there.
Thanks again web guy, for making the buttons even easier than they were yesterday!
Lynn, you asked how or why you stop loving someone. I don’t mean my analogy as any insult, but this is essentially how I equate it.
When I was a child I *loved* santa claus with all my heart. And as I grew older, and thought about him more critically, I realized that my belief, and my love, were in something that didn’t exist.
Most atheists don’t “grow up” being atheists. Most were religious, and through their own reasoning, concluded there was nothing to believe in. I myself was a very strong, strict christian, and slowly became an atheist. I started off making apologies for the christian faith, trying to find every way possible to make it logical, and as those “truths” were eroded, I slowly gave way, until here I am now.
And to be quite honest, I have never been happier or more fullfilled in my entire life.
I read the WSJ article today about Mr. Mehta’s pact with Mr. Henderson. I think it is great that both are willing to explore aspects and questions of faith.
I was especially interested in the discussion of the experience with Park Community Church. I have no association with the church. I was surprised that a Christian organization or any denomination would pray for such a specific thing.
I was an agnostic, and now I am a Christian, having to come to this committment in my mid-forties after decades of searching for a faith that fit.
It is my belief that God always answers our prayers. The problem is that we don’t always listen and we don’t accept that God’s answer might just be ‘NO’. This church’s pastor and congregation might have better served God and better understood the answer if they had started with a different concept. “Dear God, we feel called to provide a larger building to better serve our community. We pray that you will guide us. Help us to know our true mission and help us that we might obtain the resources to accomplish the task you set for us to accomplish that mission.” This would have opened their hearts and minds to recognize the opportunities that arose. If you are set on building a big church and acquiring parking space your mind will not accept any better alternatives that God might offer.
How and why do you stop believing?
It’s a slow tortuous process because you start to find out things you wish were not
true. It would take a book to explain all this but I’ll give you a few starters.
1) Read up on religions old and new.
2) Read why the Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah. They make some pretty darn good arguments.
3) Read about the dizzying arrays of beliefs by Christians before the councils put their heavy hand down and told everybody what to believe.
4) Read about theodicy and how traditional theistic systems’ explanations are unsatisfactory. Only newer theistic ideologies like process theology and open theism even begin to offer rational solutions.
5) Why didn’t Jesus return as promised?
6) Why is the phrase “original sin” not to be found in the Bible?
Thanks for saying it baffles you rather than saying we must not have been Christians.
To me its kind of like if you really love someone, how do you just stop loving them?
That’s a great question, Lynn.
What humans call ‘love’ is a complex mix of things. “I love you” may mean
1) I love specific qualities in you
2) I need you
3) I enjoy doing good things for you
4) I love the good things you do for me
etc.
I guess I could go down that list;
1) I developed too much uncertainty about God’s character to be sure God had the qualities I love. And I got honest about how much I didn’t like things like God sending people to hell (or allowing them to go; or whatever; if nothing else, God had the choice to not create those people). I can’t love sending people to hell - I just can’t.
2) I used to need God. But - I decided to figure out how not to need God anymore, since I couldn’t be sure God existed.
3) I love doing good things for people who exist; I’d rather expend my energy on peopel I’m sure exist.
4) If God doesn’t exist then God didn’t do the good things so I will limit myself to loving people for the things they do when I can actually be sure they did them for me.
Another point: consider two people who get married - let’s say A and B so I don’t imply anything about genders here. They are on their best behavior when dating, but once married, B starts drinking too much and having sex with people other than A. A realizes that the person A loved was an illusion. A didn’t love B; A loved who A thought B was, but that B doesn’t exist.
I can’t love someone whose character and existence I can’t ascertain with any satisfying degree of certainty.
I also read the article in the Wall Street Journal. My concern is that, while it is more than okay for Off the Map to be conducting this study, they are depriving Hemant from what he was looking for. He was (from my understanding of the article) giving himself the opportunity to learn about God (or respective equal of varying religions). I think that Off the Map is depriving of that experience. Going to various churches to critique them is not giving Hemant a fair opportunity to learn anything. Reason being that going to church isn’t how you get to know the Lord or understand why people believe in him. Most churches preach instead of teach and most people learn better by gaining their own understanding of things instead of being told. All church does is give you a way to reinforce what you already know or keep you refreshed on what you know. The best way to teach someone about the Lord is to teach them like a class (ex: Bible Study). He needs to read the Bible along with commentary or with history books giving proof that these events did happen.
Anyway, just my opinion and wanted to share. I hope Hemant finds what he is looking for.
Actually many events in the Old Testament and in the New Testament are corroborated in historical documents. Many biblical accounts begin with “in the third year of the reign of King……when so and so was ruler of ……and such another thing was going on” which helps modern day scholars to verify these biblical accounts against histories of the period.
Jayson B wrote: When I was a child I *loved* santa claus with all my heart. And as I grew older, and thought about him more critically, I realized that my belief, and my love, were in something that didn’t exist.
Maybe the reason why Christians and atheists differ so much is just a matter of perspective? I’ll use your analogy for me -
When I was little, I loved Santa Claus too. As I grew older, I never thought about him critically. I do remember the first Christmas after finding out it was really Mom & Dad though. There was a sort of emptiness I had, because the anticipation and the excitement of Santa coming was gone. But they told me stories about how Dad would get up real early to put together toys, bike, etc. and then when he’d finally get to bed, in the wee hours of the morning, that would be just about the time I’d wake up and see the things under the tree! Then he’d have to get up too (poor Dad). I remember thinking how much Mom & Dad loved me to do what they did - how unselfish they were. Rather than thinking critically about what wasn’t there anymore (or didn’t exist, as you stated) - I realized what was really there all the time. The spirit of loving, caring, and giving was there all along - it never changed for me. Is your glass half empty or half full? Mine was half full! It’s all a matter of perspective.
This is a perspective I have noticed during the time I’ve been on this site - almost all of the non-believers (athiest, agnostic, human secularist), are very sceptical even cynical at times. Why is that?
The other problem is that if you need a whole set of dictionaries, concordances and commentaries to properly understand the Bible, then Christianity becomes the property of a theological elite only.
My glass is half full, and I think you missed the point entirely.
You say that the love, caring, and giving were all there when you realized santa claus didn’t exist. Here’s the kicker Lynn, and this is one of the biggest misconceptions about athiests………….when we found out god didn’t exist, we realized that love, caring and giving still existed too!
Except they existed in mankind. They existed in every man and woman. Just like you and Santa Claus, where you realized the belief in something supernatural (santa) was merely covering up your faith in something natural (your parents).
I also read the article in the Wall Street Journal. My concern is that, while it is more than okay for Off the Map to be conducting this study, they are depriving Hemant from what he was looking for. He was (from my understanding of the article) giving himself the opportunity to learn about God (or respective equal of varying religions). I think that Off the Map is depriving of that experience.
I’d like to hear Hemant’s thoughts about this.
Cheryl, I don’t understand why you think Hemant making detailed reports to OTM will interfere with him learning about God.
Here’s the kicker Lynn, and this is one of the biggest misconceptions about athiests………….when we found out god didn’t exist, we realized that love, caring and giving still existed too!
Except they existed in mankind. They existed in every man and woman. Just like you and Santa Claus, where you realized the belief in something supernatural (santa) was merely covering up your faith in something natural (your parents).
Albert wrote: The other problem is that if you need a whole set of dictionaries, concordances and commentaries to properly understand the Bible, then Christianity becomes the property of a theological elite only.
When I first began using a computer (way too long ago), I didn’t understand it. I used dictionaries, books, and people more knowledgable than me, to assist me in using it accurately. (Based on my italics issue of the other dya, I am still seeking truth and knowledge in computers - LOL). Attempting to understand the Bible can be looked at in basically the same way. It can seem complicated and difficult to understand at times - that’s why we look for assistance to gain knowledge about it. But when I personally gain a better understanding of it - to me, it was worth the effort I put into the search.
TX, just another area I think we must agree to disagree about - I don’t put religion (a faith, belief, creed) in the same catagory as magic (a slight of hand form of entertainment).
Please consider going to asburymemorial.org and viewing the services that have been posted on the website. It is a wonderfully inclusive church with a consistent message–LOVE. Check out the “Imagine” service or one of the “God on Broadway” series, especially “A Chorus Line.” It is refreshingly different.
Thanks Lynn and Jane for answering TXAtheist. I won’t waste anybody’s time repeating what’s already been said.
Albert,
To say that using what are essentially study guides would make Christianity for the theologically elite is like saying you have to be elite to learn period. When you are in school, you don’t just go by what the teacher says in class. To get a full understanding of anything you have to read and sometimes do research. Most people don’t read commentaries, etc. because they believe what they have been taught growing up. However, some people like to learn on their own and therefore it requires more indebt study.
Ir,
I didn’t say working with Off the Map would interfere with him learning about GOD. I just think it is more a way of learning about different religions and not an indebt study about GOD. Going to different churches will let him learn the beliefs and teachings of different religions, but I don’t think it will give him an indebt understanding of God per se. As I said that is what I think, but I may be wrong. The reason I believe that is because I didn’t fully understand God (or the reason why He was worshipped by so many) until I studied it myself.
I just want to tell everyone that I love how respectful the conversations on this forum are. I have had religious conversations and they generally turn ugly. Whatever religion you are or whatever you believe the folks on this site are a class act.
Albert,
I saw you wrote that most third world countries don’t have access to commentaries. You are right, but many of them still practice the ancient art of passing history down by word of mouth. Which probably works better because most of them have a stronger faith than us with access to them. :)
Comment by: Siamang
1Holy moley!
Make way for the huge crowd.
Comment by: Ir
2Awesome!!!
Comment by: HumanistEditor
3Congratulations on a great article. I hope this brings lots more folks to both your site and to Hemant’s personal blog. I also hope some other major newspapers — like the New York Times and USA Today — cherry pick the article. Jim, Hemant, are you ready for O’Reilly?
Comment by: KSG
4Great article. Open the floodgates.
Comment by: Bryan
5High marks for drawing attention to your site. I share the opinion that having dialogue with people not sharing similar beliefs is exceedingly valuable, if for no other reason than to foster a cohesive, tolerant community. While this approach is a bit sensational, it’s nice to see action in this direction.
Comment by: Jayson B.
6I’ve been following Hemant since the begining, both in fascination and jealousy (my athiesm is still relatively “in the closet” and will most likely stay that way). It’s good to see that the article is bringing to light the situation at hand, and to be honest, I enjoy this website more for the fact that hemant has been fantastic at putting a human face to atheism rather than showing christians what they’re doing wrong.
However, and hemant can correct me, I don’t remember hemant EVER stating anything about “suspecting that he’s missing out on something.” And once again, I find myself saddened by someone putting words into an atheist’s mouth because they don’t bother to listen.
There is this assumption that Atheists are the Great Deniers of God, that we stare Jehovah in the eye and then turn out backs on him, that there is some book of absolute “evidence” that we read and refuse to acknowledge. It’s as if it is assumed we are aligned with Satan…….rather than accepting the fact that maybe, just *maybe*, we just plain of think that through logical reasoning the cornerstones of religion simply don’t jive.
Why is this such an impossible thing for deists to believe and accept?
Comment by: Rick L in TX
7Jayson you wrote I don’t remember hemant EVER stating anything about “suspecting that he’s missing out on something.” And once again, I find myself saddened by someone putting words into an atheist’s mouth because they don’t bother to listen.
Have you been eavesdropping on every conversation? Rather than jumping to conclusions that simply don’t jive, what don’t we just ask him. Hey hemant - did you say that quote as reported in the WSJ?
Comment by: Stephan
8Congrats to Jim for the attention. This experiment has certainly put Off-the-map on the map.
Once the throngs show up, and I’m sure they will, I probably won’t do much posting anymore. The dialog is sure to become less civil, and I want no part of that. I’ll keep reading Hemant’s surveys, but that’s probably all.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9Stephan - Stay tuned - maybe we all can have some fun and see if we can keep it civil and interesting
Comment by: Ron
10Jayson,
You know the first thing I would say is that I am sad that that is the way you feel perceived by believers and I think that there is some legitimacy to your perception. I know that some atheists get tired of hearing this but the fact is we are not perfect, we do make mistakes and even worse, offten we do not feel remorse for those mistakes. But the truth is if any of us were perfect we could not go to church because we believe (however flawed it may be) that going to church helps assist in our healing and everyone needs that.
Perhaps you are looking for a more profound response than “Oh we are not perfect” because that can seem like a cop-out. To that, let me say this. Atheists don’t believe in God because they can’t logically wrap their minds around Him or the concepts. Christians believe that once someone has truely encountered the living God, logically, it doesn’t make sense to reject him. We are more alike then people give us credit for. Both feel passionate about what they logically can assertain.
A deist would say, “Why is believing in God so hard for atheists to accept?” If you can answer that question, then you will have the same answer to the question you asked.
Comment by: skikid
11Yeah this it should make things more interesting :) … I hope that as an e-community effort we can maintain the civility of this diablog. It is after all why this site is so special. I believe that as a group we can accomplish this, if we continue to listen and not try to change eachother. Maybe I am slighted, I have learned so much here and become more aware of some of my own stereotypes and misconceptions, and I think that is invaluable. I hope that more voices leads only to more learning, listening and dialog.
Comment by: Ir
12Jayson, part of the problem is the following Bible passage, which Christians generally understand to mean that all atheists really do know God exists:
(Emphasis mine)
Given the choice between what Christians think this passage means and what atheists say about themselves, many Christians will go with this passage rather than what atheists say.
If you’ve heard Hemant on Way of the Master (the link is on Hemant’s site), the hosts draw heavily on the above passage and presume that when Hemant looks at the world around him, he must know, really, that God exists, because of what he sees.
I know that doesn’t address atheists ‘missing’ something. I expect that derives from some Bible passage(s) also, but I’m not remembering it/them right now.
Comment by: TXatheist
13Ron,
Everyone, atheists and theists, realize no one is perfect. I’d say most of us learn from our mistakes, both sides. We all do not believe church helps us, you may and that’s fine. Atheists have various reasons for not believing but for me personally I do understand the concepts and I don’t believe. I was absolutely a christian once and for anyone to say I wasn’t is not only insulting it’s plain misguided. I’m not so much passionate about my views but content. We are more alike I agree, with the exception of religion.
Comment by: Ken
14A friend of mine pointed me to the article today, and I have to say I am grateful. I hope God moves in your life, He’s certainly working through your life. I’m a believer. Grew up in the Bible belt (don’t hold that against me), and I believe that often the American church has missed some of the point. Living for Christ is about serving others, it’s about relationships, it’s about fighting poverty and disease, and it’s about loving people where they are for who they are. I look forward to reading your critiques. I hope that if nothing else, I can grow and learn from your perspective.
Grace and Peace to you,
Ken
Comment by: skikid
15Ken~ I wont hold geography against you. I have always heard people refer to the Bible Belt but never knew where exactly it is. So if someone could inform my ignorance that would be great :)
Comment by: Ir
16TXatheist wrote:
I know what you’re referring to. Many Christians believe it’s impossible for someone who’s a true Christian to become an atheist and so someone like you who says “I was a Christian snd now I’m an atheist” threatens that belief. If what you say is true then their belief is wrong. Since their belief being wrong is evidently something they aren’t willing to consider, they instead decide that there must be something wrong with what you say. Clearly you are now an atheist - they can’t deny that. So they decide to deny that you ever were a Christian.
I think it’s insulting and I’m just waiting for the first person to say that to me. It won’t be someone who I went to church and Bible studies with for years, at least - because they can’t deny I was a Christian. On the whole those people seem to see me as a person who is having some current temporary difficulties with my faith, who is really still a Christian. Perhaps it’s because I still capitalize God ;) I feel I have a lot in common with Christians; however the way I live my daily life and make decisions about it is much more like the way atheists [with a similar life situation and similar personality to me] approach it.
Comment by: Lynn I.
17I missed you guys - lost the connection for a day due to storms I guess. Glad to be back.
TX wrote: I was absolutely a christian once and for anyone to say I wasn’t is not only insulting it’s plain misguided.
Ir wrote: I think it’s insulting and I’m just waiting for the first person to say that to me. It won’t be someone who I went to church and Bible studies with for years, at least - because they can’t deny I was a Christian. On the whole those people seem to see me as a person who is having some current temporary difficulties with my faith, who is really still a Christian.
And Ir, I think it’s cool that you still capitalize God - no matter what the other atheists here may say about it. I capitalized Madeline Murray O’Hara!
I don’t question your current belief systems - for either one of you. I respect both of you for being willing to openly and maturely talk about that here. As a Christian, my questions are more related to “how” and “why” you stopped believing? It’s just something I can’t seem to get my mind around. It honestly baffles me! To me its kind of like if you really love someone, how do you just stop loving them? Since we’re all pretty much the same, maybe by understanding you all, I’ll get a better understanding of myself? I don’t know - just throwing that out there.
Thanks again web guy, for making the buttons even easier than they were yesterday!
Comment by: Jayson B.
18Lynn, you asked how or why you stop loving someone. I don’t mean my analogy as any insult, but this is essentially how I equate it.
When I was a child I *loved* santa claus with all my heart. And as I grew older, and thought about him more critically, I realized that my belief, and my love, were in something that didn’t exist.
Most atheists don’t “grow up” being atheists. Most were religious, and through their own reasoning, concluded there was nothing to believe in. I myself was a very strong, strict christian, and slowly became an atheist. I started off making apologies for the christian faith, trying to find every way possible to make it logical, and as those “truths” were eroded, I slowly gave way, until here I am now.
And to be quite honest, I have never been happier or more fullfilled in my entire life.
Comment by: Jane Myers
19I read the WSJ article today about Mr. Mehta’s pact with Mr. Henderson. I think it is great that both are willing to explore aspects and questions of faith.
I was especially interested in the discussion of the experience with Park Community Church. I have no association with the church. I was surprised that a Christian organization or any denomination would pray for such a specific thing.
I was an agnostic, and now I am a Christian, having to come to this committment in my mid-forties after decades of searching for a faith that fit.
It is my belief that God always answers our prayers. The problem is that we don’t always listen and we don’t accept that God’s answer might just be ‘NO’. This church’s pastor and congregation might have better served God and better understood the answer if they had started with a different concept. “Dear God, we feel called to provide a larger building to better serve our community. We pray that you will guide us. Help us to know our true mission and help us that we might obtain the resources to accomplish the task you set for us to accomplish that mission.” This would have opened their hearts and minds to recognize the opportunities that arose. If you are set on building a big church and acquiring parking space your mind will not accept any better alternatives that God might offer.
Comment by itsme - March 9, 2006
Comment by: Albert
20How and why do you stop believing?
It’s a slow tortuous process because you start to find out things you wish were not
true. It would take a book to explain all this but I’ll give you a few starters.
1) Read up on religions old and new.
2) Read why the Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah. They make some pretty darn good arguments.
3) Read about the dizzying arrays of beliefs by Christians before the councils put their heavy hand down and told everybody what to believe.
4) Read about theodicy and how traditional theistic systems’ explanations are unsatisfactory. Only newer theistic ideologies like process theology and open theism even begin to offer rational solutions.
5) Why didn’t Jesus return as promised?
6) Why is the phrase “original sin” not to be found in the Bible?
Comment by: Ir
21Lynn, I wondered where you were…welcome back!
Thanks for saying it baffles you rather than saying we must not have been Christians.
That’s a great question, Lynn.
What humans call ‘love’ is a complex mix of things. “I love you” may mean
1) I love specific qualities in you
2) I need you
3) I enjoy doing good things for you
4) I love the good things you do for me
etc.
I guess I could go down that list;
1) I developed too much uncertainty about God’s character to be sure God had the qualities I love. And I got honest about how much I didn’t like things like God sending people to hell (or allowing them to go; or whatever; if nothing else, God had the choice to not create those people). I can’t love sending people to hell - I just can’t.
2) I used to need God. But - I decided to figure out how not to need God anymore, since I couldn’t be sure God existed.
3) I love doing good things for people who exist; I’d rather expend my energy on peopel I’m sure exist.
4) If God doesn’t exist then God didn’t do the good things so I will limit myself to loving people for the things they do when I can actually be sure they did them for me.
Another point: consider two people who get married - let’s say A and B so I don’t imply anything about genders here. They are on their best behavior when dating, but once married, B starts drinking too much and having sex with people other than A. A realizes that the person A loved was an illusion. A didn’t love B; A loved who A thought B was, but that B doesn’t exist.
I can’t love someone whose character and existence I can’t ascertain with any satisfying degree of certainty.
Comment by: Cheryl
22I also read the article in the Wall Street Journal. My concern is that, while it is more than okay for Off the Map to be conducting this study, they are depriving Hemant from what he was looking for. He was (from my understanding of the article) giving himself the opportunity to learn about God (or respective equal of varying religions). I think that Off the Map is depriving of that experience. Going to various churches to critique them is not giving Hemant a fair opportunity to learn anything. Reason being that going to church isn’t how you get to know the Lord or understand why people believe in him. Most churches preach instead of teach and most people learn better by gaining their own understanding of things instead of being told. All church does is give you a way to reinforce what you already know or keep you refreshed on what you know. The best way to teach someone about the Lord is to teach them like a class (ex: Bible Study). He needs to read the Bible along with commentary or with history books giving proof that these events did happen.
Anyway, just my opinion and wanted to share. I hope Hemant finds what he is looking for.
Comment by: TXatheist
23Cheryl,
What events happened that we can verify with proof?
Comment by: Jane
24Actually many events in the Old Testament and in the New Testament are corroborated in historical documents. Many biblical accounts begin with “in the third year of the reign of King……when so and so was ruler of ……and such another thing was going on” which helps modern day scholars to verify these biblical accounts against histories of the period.
Comment by: Lynn I.
25Jayson B wrote: When I was a child I *loved* santa claus with all my heart. And as I grew older, and thought about him more critically, I realized that my belief, and my love, were in something that didn’t exist.
Maybe the reason why Christians and atheists differ so much is just a matter of perspective? I’ll use your analogy for me -
When I was little, I loved Santa Claus too. As I grew older, I never thought about him critically. I do remember the first Christmas after finding out it was really Mom & Dad though. There was a sort of emptiness I had, because the anticipation and the excitement of Santa coming was gone. But they told me stories about how Dad would get up real early to put together toys, bike, etc. and then when he’d finally get to bed, in the wee hours of the morning, that would be just about the time I’d wake up and see the things under the tree! Then he’d have to get up too (poor Dad). I remember thinking how much Mom & Dad loved me to do what they did - how unselfish they were. Rather than thinking critically about what wasn’t there anymore (or didn’t exist, as you stated) - I realized what was really there all the time. The spirit of loving, caring, and giving was there all along - it never changed for me. Is your glass half empty or half full? Mine was half full! It’s all a matter of perspective.
This is a perspective I have noticed during the time I’ve been on this site - almost all of the non-believers (athiest, agnostic, human secularist), are very sceptical even cynical at times. Why is that?
Comment by: Albert
26The other problem is that if you need a whole set of dictionaries, concordances and commentaries to properly understand the Bible, then Christianity becomes the property of a theological elite only.
Comment by: Albert
27Why cynical? Because some of us feel like we’ve been lied to. Touches a raw nerve you know.
Comment by: TXatheist
28Jane, People existed yes. There are connections to the rulers of the day. That I agree with.
Lynn,
I see religion and magic the same, deception so that’s why I’m skeptical. I don’t like to be tricked you could say:)
Comment by: Stephan
29Albert I think the danger is putting too much faith in the Bible and not enough in God.
Comment by: Jayson B.
30Lynn,
My glass is half full, and I think you missed the point entirely.
You say that the love, caring, and giving were all there when you realized santa claus didn’t exist. Here’s the kicker Lynn, and this is one of the biggest misconceptions about athiests………….when we found out god didn’t exist, we realized that love, caring and giving still existed too!
Except they existed in mankind. They existed in every man and woman. Just like you and Santa Claus, where you realized the belief in something supernatural (santa) was merely covering up your faith in something natural (your parents).
Comment by: Ir
31Cheryl wrote:
I’d like to hear Hemant’s thoughts about this.
Cheryl, I don’t understand why you think Hemant making detailed reports to OTM will interfere with him learning about God.
Comment by: TXatheist
32Jayson,
Well said if I may say.
Comment by: Ir
33Jayson wrote:
Very well put, Jayson.
Comment by: Lynn I.
34Albert wrote: The other problem is that if you need a whole set of dictionaries, concordances and commentaries to properly understand the Bible, then Christianity becomes the property of a theological elite only.
When I first began using a computer (way too long ago), I didn’t understand it. I used dictionaries, books, and people more knowledgable than me, to assist me in using it accurately. (Based on my italics issue of the other dya, I am still seeking truth and knowledge in computers - LOL). Attempting to understand the Bible can be looked at in basically the same way. It can seem complicated and difficult to understand at times - that’s why we look for assistance to gain knowledge about it. But when I personally gain a better understanding of it - to me, it was worth the effort I put into the search.
TX, just another area I think we must agree to disagree about - I don’t put religion (a faith, belief, creed) in the same catagory as magic (a slight of hand form of entertainment).
Comment by: Lynn I.
35Jayson,
Very articulate and point well taken.
Comment by: Albert
36Unfortunately most poeple in the third world won’t have access to computers, commentaries………..
Comment by: TXatheist
37Lynn,
Fair enough not to agree but that is why.
Comment by: JHM
38Please consider going to asburymemorial.org and viewing the services that have been posted on the website. It is a wonderfully inclusive church with a consistent message–LOVE. Check out the “Imagine” service or one of the “God on Broadway” series, especially “A Chorus Line.” It is refreshingly different.
Comment by: Cheryl
39Thanks Lynn and Jane for answering TXAtheist. I won’t waste anybody’s time repeating what’s already been said.
Albert,
To say that using what are essentially study guides would make Christianity for the theologically elite is like saying you have to be elite to learn period. When you are in school, you don’t just go by what the teacher says in class. To get a full understanding of anything you have to read and sometimes do research. Most people don’t read commentaries, etc. because they believe what they have been taught growing up. However, some people like to learn on their own and therefore it requires more indebt study.
Ir,
I didn’t say working with Off the Map would interfere with him learning about GOD. I just think it is more a way of learning about different religions and not an indebt study about GOD. Going to different churches will let him learn the beliefs and teachings of different religions, but I don’t think it will give him an indebt understanding of God per se. As I said that is what I think, but I may be wrong. The reason I believe that is because I didn’t fully understand God (or the reason why He was worshipped by so many) until I studied it myself.
I just want to tell everyone that I love how respectful the conversations on this forum are. I have had religious conversations and they generally turn ugly. Whatever religion you are or whatever you believe the folks on this site are a class act.
Comment by: Cheryl
40Albert,
I saw you wrote that most third world countries don’t have access to commentaries. You are right, but many of them still practice the ancient art of passing history down by word of mouth. Which probably works better because most of them have a stronger faith than us with access to them. :)
Comment by: Laura
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