Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.08.2006 /
This “fixing the italics” project has been one of the funnest things to watch. I think our web guy must have fixed the buttons (which I still find undecipherable) but if I could have planned it I would have.
If we can fix italics - what else could we fix?
What other projects could we work on together, in spite of our passionate differences over whether or not god/God exists?
Why (this is a serious question - not a rant) are we able to spend such large amounts of mental and emotional energy discussing our intellectual/cosmic/belief differences and yet so little time talking about what we could be doing to help make our world a better place.
If atheists and Christians got together to serve others - do you think anyone would notice?
what kind of projects could we do together that would send a message to others that we need to move on past our unending differences and instead contribute in some substantial way?
why aren’t there groups comprised solely of people who have historically fought with each other but who have now decided to work together just to stop the craziness?
Comment by: Steve
1Many people want to be right and want respect. Just working is often a slow way to earn respect. If you can “take control”, you can get respect a lot faster. An easy way to take control is to create an enemy, even where there isn’t one. I think that’s a large portion of the them-vs-us that has, is, and will permeate human social structures.
That’s my cynical view at least.
Comment by: Stephan
2I’m sure this happens all of the time, but no one notices. Any time an athiest gives money to or volunteers with Habitat for Humanity or The Salvation Army or any number of Christian relief organizations this happens in a small way. Are there any Athiest relief organizations I could partner with or give money to?
Comment by: KSG
3Jim, I’m glad you had a laugh at (partially) my expense.
I’m willing to work in co-op with anyone for a good purpose.
On a serious note, you said,why aren’t there groups comprised solely of people who have historically fought with each other but who have now decided to work together just to stop the craziness? there are such groups, they are called demoninations (oops, there I go with the wrong spelling again. denominations) and currently their target is homosexuality.
Comment by: Siamang
4Yep, Stephan.
I gave a sum of money to my local food bank during their Christmas drive and they sent me back a letter that said:
With this gift, (siamang), you re-affirm your commitment to Our Lord and His mission.
My wife and I got a chuckle out of that, and I put it on our refrigerator.
There are an untold number of non-religious charities. The United Way, Toys for Tots, Muscular Dystrophy Association…
I give based on the work a charity does, not based on what their religious or non-religious beliefs are.
I don’t know if there are specifically atheist charities doing relief. If I was running a relief organization, I’d keep my atheism out of it, and just run a relief orgainization. Just be a secular organization, no sense in antagonizing religion while you’re doing it.
Comment by: skikid
5I tend to agree with Siamang. But it would be interesting to do some sort of basic service project that was clearly inter-faith-non-faith. It would be intersting to see if it could happen… I think that if two groups that have not historically gotten along can, and do tangible good in the proscess it would be a good illustration of hope. Hope that we can live together in peace despite all of our differences.
BTW Siamang I bought this bumper-stick that is now on my firdge it reads “WWJD…Who Wants Jelly Doughnuts?”
Comment by: darci
6I have a bumper sticker that says “What would Scooby Do?” :-)
Comment by: KSG
7My friend has a hoodie with “WWJD for a klondike bar”
Comment by: Ir
8Jim, it’s already happening in some arenas. I’ve seen parents of a variety of beliefs/non-beliefs help out at the school their children go to and with their children’s sports teams. I’ve seen community members of a variety of beliefs/non-beliefs get involved together in community concerns.
So…it does happen. Maybe it should happen more, but at least it’s happening to some extent.
Comment by: Meagan
9What an excellent idea Jim! I know inevitably believers and non-believers coexist and work for the same cause at times but that isn’t to say it’s intentional.
Reading this dialogue has been so eye opening and I can’t even count the epiphanies I’ve had but I really want to translate this online, hidden behind a computer and a vague first name into reality… into life. Show me the project and I’ll be there.
I’m going to be in Portland, Oregon for about the next week… (Cold, because I live in Texas where it’s 90degrees already.) Jim, is OTM is based somewhere Northwest… Portland even? For some reason I was thinking that. I am absolutely going to will miss the conversation and blog reading!! Take care!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
10Meagan - contact me at jim@off-the-map.org and I’ll introduce you to some off the map types in Portland
Comment by: skikid
11I totally agree w/ Megan. If people are intersted in the Seattle-ish are I love to help organize something… although it seems like we’re all pretty spread out.
Comment by: fran
12Bunch of wusses!!!!! Careful, they might be a little bit pregnant. Either or folks!!!Geeesh!!!
Comment by: Ir
13Good morning, fran :)
Comment by: fran
14I gotta get to work :( , but I will return early
Comment by: TXatheist
15Meagan,
I’ve helped several groups in Texas with hands on housing. Atheists right next to xians/hindus/jews and most likely they didn’t know I was an atheist but that’s not what mattered. Seeing the people’s face after we fix their house is the reward.
Comment by: Ir
16TXatheist wrote: they didn’t know I was an atheist but that’s not what mattered.
I agree, except that if any of them thought atheists were too self-centered, or whatever, to help in such a project, it might have been nice to prove to them that at least one atheist isn’t.
I’m not saying you should have told them, though. That’s a choice for you to make in each situation, having weighed up the pros and cons of telling them vs. not mentioning it.
Seeing the people’s face after we fix their house is the reward.
They are fortunate to have people like you who are content with that reward, since I daresay they couldn’t afford any other.
Comment by: Me
17Great idea. I’ve always believed that the firm-christians and firm-atheists are some of the most ethical and moral people. It is the “wishy-washies” in the middle who are the “problem”.
Comment by: Albert
18Gee I hope your definition of “firm-christians” doesn’t include Pat Robertson.
Comment by: skikid
19Me wrote
How does that allow for change or exploration? I know that in my life there definately was a time where I was “wishy washy”, some days I think I still am. I dont think I am an immoral person (maybe you werent implying that). I just am not always certain that Ive got it all ‘right’. I value that becuase it keeps me asking questions and exploring.
Comment by: Ir
20Lots of “wishy-washies” are out there making the world a better place. Where’s the problem in that?
Comment by: Stephan
21I think people who don’t question what they believe probably don’t really know what they believe. Call me wishy-washy and happy about it.
Comment by: David S
22Great post. If more theists would have the goal of making the world a better place we’d all be happier. For atheists (who don’t have a heaven to get to as ‘the goal’) making this world better already is what we focus on.
Comment by: Stephan
23David, how many athiest hospitals are operating in Africa? How many athiest soup kitchens are operating in your home town? Do athiests regularly take group trips to underprivileged areas to help build homes?
I would assert that there are plenty of theists who want to make this world a better place.
Comment by: Siamang
24“Do athiests regularly take group trips to underprivileged areas to help build homes?”
Of course atheists do. Atheists give and work in hospitals. Atheists donate their time in hospice care. Atheist doctors go to war zones to help refugees. Athiests spoon out soup.
Bill Gates, the number one charitible giver in the world is an atheist. He has given over $28 billion dollars to fight disease and poverty in Africa and around the world. Over half of his personal wealth.
Stephan, there are ways to say that theists help the world without saying that atheists don’t help the world.
I would issue the same admonishment to david, but he said “more theists” rather than “theists”, so he did temper his words somewhat.
Comment by: Stephan
25Siamang, point taken. I was a little miffed at David’s insinuation.
Comment by: Siamang
26It’s hard not to respond in kind. I understand that. You should read what I originally wrote you in response! I paused. Deleted, and wrote what you read above instead!
I only had the response to you because I caught myself doing it.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
27Siamang, I did not know that Bill Gates has self-identified as an atheist. Is there a source of info about that?
Comment by: Ir
28Rick, try this for some comments of Bill Gates pertaining to his beliefs/non-beliefs.
Comment by: Patrick McLaughlin
29“If atheists and Christians got together”
But they do.
The board of my Unitarian Universalist congregation has, in the last few years, included people who identify themselves as:
Christian
Atheist
Agnostic
Pagan
Jewish
Muslim
Hindu
Buddhist
… that I know of.
Good work? Sure, we’ve cooked meals and fed the homeless. We’ve gone and helped repair homes and spruce up yards in poor neighborhoods. We’ve donated about 20% (it might be more like 25%) of what our annual operating budget is to Heifer Int’l, tsunami relief, Gulf Coast relief, and taken in a New Orleans family–who we’re still supporting, because our objective isn’t just to move them out of poverty in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans to poverty in So. California (the move was their choice, not ours–we’d be working with them either way), but to also help them develop the skills and habits to get out and stay out of poverty. That’s on top of the list of local charities donated to.
You don’t have to believe alike to be in community together. One devout Christian told me at our national assembly that the Biblical warning is not to be unequally yoked with “unbelievers”… but we’re all equally yoked, so….
And with that, I have to stop typing, grab a bite to eat, and go to the board meeting, because it’s time to approve the budget and talk about the new building’s cost being over the planned budget. We break ground in May.
Comment by: NattyBee
30I totally disagree, simply because this comment precisely singles out the people who have closed their minds against experiencing life and learning its lessons. To know that you do not know much is the beginning of wisdom, and the more “firm” a person gets, the more he or she is closing off the mind and heart to new experiences.
Most of the “firm” theists I have met are pretty rotten people– seriously. I’m not exaggerating that comment for effect; that’s been my experience over a lifetime of attending various churches. That’s the main reason why, after a lot of searching, I have concluded that the most I can do is to be spiritual but, emphatically, not religious. I have met very few people whose lives have been changed for the better by religion. I’ve also met a whole lot of people who have become religious as an escape mechanism, or as a way to absolve themselves of personal responsibility for their actions, or as an excuse to focus on changing other people instead of themselves. The people I’ve met who have gone through occasional fluxes in spiritual and/or religious beliefs have been a heck of a lot more genuine than the “firm” types.
Evidently you have had a very different experience than I have with religion, but I’m just giving my 2 c. From my perspective, religion as a phenomenon is a very damaging thing to humanity and it is the “firm” types out there who are causing the problems, not vice versa.
Comment by: NattyBee
31P.S.– I know I used the incorrect terminology– I’m not referring to “theists” as subscribers to the Theist school of thought, but as the “firm” believers in certain religions, including Christianity, to whom you were referring.