Read the Article - Heres my question/comment

Comment by: Ed

A friend mailed me the WSJ article.

Comment by: Ir

[turning off italics (I hope)]

Comment by: skikid

Jim~

I found the page through a link on my schools secular studnents web page (a couple of weeks ago).

I was wondering if you ever did programs specifically to bring believers and non-believers together and faciliate discussion… I know you have done interviews but have you ever done lager discussions?

Comment by: Jim Henderson

skikid

yes I would be very interested in something like that - I just have no interest in “moderating a debate”

email me at info@off-the-map.org

Comment by: Ir

Bob, I’m so sorry to hear about your recent experiences at church. So basically, the message the second pastor conveyed was “we don’t like honest people around here”. How odd!

I hope you can find a church which believes in grace enough that they extend it to gay people.

Comment by: Rachelle Mee-Chapman

“If I could be an atheist pastor?” he says, “Oh God, that would be great!”

Hemet,

I loved this quote! AtheistPastor….sounds like a blog name….wait a minute! Maybe you’re already an AtheistPastor and the blog is your pulpit! :-)

The soulcare community I’m a part of sometimes calls me a “PaganChristian”, due to my love of Jesus and all thing connected to the earth’s cycles. Who knows what other hybrids are out there?

It’s been fun lurking about the blog and reading your review. Now that you’re a Wall Street Journal superstar, who knows what will happen! Have fun with it.

Shalom,

Rachelle
Urban Abbess, Monkfish Abbey

Comment by: Cheryl Kenter

I read the artical about the gentleman who is visiting churchs… I have my two cents on this topic…that is coming from a Jewish perspective… I am very troubled sometimes with folks comments to me because I am not a “christian”… I know all about Jesus…It has been drilled into me by “well meaning” folks. I chose my religion…It’s beliefs dovetailed into my thoughts. When I taught high school, I had students tell me I was going to hell because I didn’t believe like they did…There are so many varities of Christian churchs, and so many of them don’t hold the same beliefs among themseves either…I kept wondering where these young people got the idea that they the corner on G-d… As far as I am concerned no one has that corner, no religion can claim that. All religions offer their believers moral and ethical values to live by, even if the rest of us might not understand them. I don’t want or wish to change my belief system…nor do many other folks, but that doesn’t mean that I want you to change yours either, but just respect all the other religions in the world, including the Muslims, which I can understand some folks distain for it, due to the nut cases in their cause, but haven’t all the other major religions at times (and some still do) have their fair share of nut cases. Yes, they have. But, most folks will not change their belief systems upon the threat of violence. If they do, then they weren’t that commited to their beliefs. Just an observation. My moto is live and let live as all as their chosen religion is not harming others. It just isn’t worth fighting over.

Comment by: TXatheist

hemant,
UU ministers can be atheists. You’d have to get a regular divinity degree and then change but John Spong is a xian minister I hold in high regard.

Comment by: denise

Like most, I got here through the WSJ. I too am curious how this plays out. I am an “on the fence” believer/nonbeliever. Too many religions using the same book, give different messages. It is enough to discourage the religious-illiterates like myself. I like this fresh approach and hope to see more like it.

Comment by: Cheryl

I found this link through the AOL welcome screen. I look forward to reading the blog and seeing how the experiment is coming along. I think it’s wonderful that you’re site is doing this. It give people a chance to see things from others points of view. I myself am Southern Baptist. I was raised to trust in God and He would show me the way in my life. I’ve never doubted Him. I don’t really see how anyone could. But I’ve always been concerned for those who don’t know Him. I think by the exposure to Churches maybe this young man will learn something. If not, then he will at least have been given an opportunity to learn about God. If we only preach to those who already know God, then we miss out on a whole world of people who are full of possible potential. We’re suppose to share our faith and beliefs with those who don’t already believe, not just associate with those who already do. We shouldn’t forget them, for they may fall by the wayside, but we should never leave an opportunity to bring someone new to God. If you don’t believe in Him, you have only to look at all the wonderful things He has done for us. I personally can look right beside me and see the miracle of my little girl, without God, she wouldn’t be here. I thank Him each and every day for her and for others in my life, not just once a day, but several times.

Comment by: Stephan

To quote Yogi Berra, “Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.” Bye, all. It’s been fun.

Comment by: Texan

We’ll miss you Stephen. It was great hearing your thoughts.

Comment by: Kelli

I found it on AOL news.

Comment by: Mike G

Wow! I found this to be quite impacting. Found it on AOL news. Every human was created with an instinct to believe & worship. Whether it be religion,ideals or some belief that one thing is for sure and we have in common.This apparently relieves are concience gives us “OUR” answer to the “meaning of life.” Unfortunatly we carry many labels but when it boils down to it wheres the evidence? I feel If you claim you know God, what has HE done for you, changed you, talk to you. How convicted are you about Him? Your works do not determine your faith but your faith will affect your works.In everything in life you can find the authentic and the copy. Mind you the authentic is much more scarce & that much more valuable.

Comment by: Rob Patton

As a United Church of Christ pastor, I find this dialog, the comments, this website all very encouraging. As our recent TV adds say, “No matter who you are, or where you are on life’s journey, you’re welcome here.” That means believers, non-believers, those who need traditional doctrine to feel safe, and those very non-doctrinal, gay, straight, confused, everyone. It appears to me that this is exactly what Jesus was saying and exactly what people are seeking. I applaud anyone who doesn’t “check their intellect at the door” when they enter church, and who approaches the scriptures in such a way that they “take them seriously, but not literally” in the words of Marcus Borg. Nice site, I’ll be a regular visitor from here on out. Found it via AOL as well.

Comment by: Rachel

I found out about this project on AOL news. I personally think it is a great idea to get a different kind of feedback. With this gentleman giving a non-threatening yet non-supportive critique we can learn how to better serve others who are not of our same faith or who have chosen not to align with any church. As a mormon convert, I would be very curious to see what he has to say about our church.

Comment by: Jayson Emerian

I think that the simple comment that and atheist makes is the best. The fact that an atheist saw that the church as a whole is good for us that we have hope. I have been an outsider always doing things a little different being from a Presbyterian background. I love the Lord with all my heart and love that church offers me something. Something to believe in, something to hold on to, something to look forward to. I hope that this atheist relalizes that there is more to church than just the people but hope. Hope found in Jesus Christ, an everlasting hope and an everlasting peace that trumps everything. We are all here to spread the gospel, share it with everyone we see, meet, and come in contact with. May it be by words, actions, or just a glimpse of what we do that makes someone think, “Wow, why did they do that? Why did they sacrifice for someone they didn’t know? Why did they give a smile to that old person? Why did they give up their place in line so that someone else might be first?” Theses are the questions that should be asked and these are the reasons why we are here. May God bless everyone that reads this

Comment by: Taren

Umm, im not sure how I am supposed to post here or if there is a certain outline i am supposed to follow but here it goes:
I found the link to this off the aol welcome screen, normally i pay very little attention to that irritating thing, mostly because it things like “Man sells grilled cheese sandwith that resembles jesus christ” or my favorite “a french fry that resebles the virgin mary” but for some reason I think god put it on my heart to look into this. When I first clicked the link i kinda just pushed it to the bottem and waited for it to load while going on with my normal business, and when it was finished loading I began reading. My first thought was “wow, people these days, they will do anything for money” (and please forgive me because i now know that was quite wrong) But i have to say that was partly aol’s fault for Putting the catch phrase as “MAN SELLS SOUL ON EBAY” I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to get people to click right? I am very interested in this specific blog and cant wait untill I can begin reading his experiences. I only hope that god uses this to reach other thought this man. I am praying for you!

I also wanted to touch on the subject of Gay-christianity. Bob, I am so sorry you had to experience this. i personally feel that that pastor has no right o be in the ministry, It doesnt matter what you believe or feel is right. I would think he was a pastor to speak the word of god! Jesus would not have said anything remotly close to that right? I think he would have opened his arms and embraced you! I wish i could do the same, it shouldnt matter what your sexual oriantation is. AGAPE LOVE. ROMANS 5:8 (thanks to my youth group[go beckmans], i know this verse quite well)God DIED for us while we were yet sinners- he loves us even though we sin every day!(Please do not think I am saying you are at fault or wrong) I commend you for having the strength to be open and honest, in our world honesty is a rare thing.

I am looking forward to having further discussions with everyone, If you have any comments to me please feel free- I am in every way open to learn and offer my feelings toward things. Me. Hermet- Thank you for providing a safe website where we can discuss religion without it turning into arguments.

Comment by: Brian R

Hi Everyone. I just wanted to let you know about a time, a few years ago. This guy that I went to school with, he wore all black. Loved Marilyn Manson, had crosses in his bedroom upside down, etc. I belonged to a small country baptist church in Georgia at the time, and He came with another friend of mine to revival one weeknight. He only came just to prove that God did not exist. That God was just something that people had thought up to justify their “moral” way of thinking persay. Anyways, just to let you all know, before that night was over, Matt came up off the floor (where he’d been praying, for he felt the power and conviction of Jesus Christ the King at his heart!) and shouted, Halleluah!!!! “I’m saved!!!” I’ll never forget that night for as long as God lets me live here below. So Mr. M, I just want you to know that you don’t need to feel like something is missing and ignore the fact… Think about what happened to Matt that night. I know that if he were here, he’d be glad to let you know his testimony! Just as I am, I’ll be praying for you my friend. Praying that God will make a way. In Christs Love,
Brian

Comment by: Brian R

Oh Yeah, before I go, I’m kinda like Taren. The little welcome screen on AOL is so annoying, but for some reason, I felt led to dig a little deeper on this one.

Mr. M, please know that as many headlines as your story has made, You are being prayed for my probably millions of people all over the US or even the WORLD!!!! Isn’t it great to know that people that you don’t even know worry about you? Well, they do! And it is great. That just goes to show you that God is wonderful is many many ways. So If you recieve God, you too can know the wonders of his love. His neverending mercy. And his powerful, almighty love he offered when He send his son to die for our sins. Mr. M, please feel free to pray for me too. I love to get all the prayers I can. May God You is My Prayer!

Comment by: Taren

I am so glad im not the only on who feels like this man *mr. M* is a blessing for all people of Christaian/(believeing that jesus Christ died for your sins rose again and loves you no matter what) faith. I feel this is a big step for bringing god into the mainstream, even if you dont know it Mr*m god is working through you!!!

Comment by: Blake

What makes people believe what they actually believe, and what set apart those that tryuly believe in God, and those that merely use the “system” of the church to step into another realm of social nomenclature? For example: I am now a highly paid real estate and insurance salesman. Does it not benefit me to worship in a place where :if you believe what I believe, I trust you more than anyone else?” I only bring this up because I was once bitter, and lost because I saw this, (and many other examples of mis-being), as a major flaw with my religion. I have since taken a step back, and asked myself, “What is important to me?” I am interested in these types of people now, not for what they believe or who they actually are, but for what they can teach me about myself.

Comment by: Cully

Bringing God into the Mainstream?!? I’m sorry… I just have to stare at that statement with my mouth open.

79% of Americans self identify as Christian, another 5% as some other religion, and 15% as atheist.

41% of Americans say they attend church on a weekly basis.

There are 350 thousand+ churches in the US, enough that if every single man woman and child in the US evenly divided themselves amongst the available churches each church would only have about 850 members.

There’s an estimated 2.6 billion literate adults in the world. About 30% of those are Christian. There are 1.8 billion bibles in print. In other nearly 2 for every literate Christian.

Everyone from Oprah to professional athletes to Congressmen to Hollywood stars to reality show contestants publicly pray and thank God for every little thing.

George Bush, the first, during his period as a nominee in 1987 stated: “No, I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”

How much more mainstream can you possible want to be?

Comment by: mookie

hello everyone i just would like to say that everyone will question the unknown and no one will ever know especially when it comes to religion until they take their own walk with god he will lets us know what we need to do that is why if i dont sound like i dont belive trust when i tell you i will eventually take that walk and he will tell me not the church or anyone who says im gonna burn cause of my questions no one seems to have an answer to. i had a freind who stood in my kitchen and called me the devil himself for just asking what make you belive your worshiping the right god?

Comment by: shankar

Hemant: Can you answer me on this one question?
If you have eaten something tasty, you say “Oh its very tasty”

Here’s the question:
Is the taste in the food OR
Is the taste in the tongue

Comment by: fran

So Mook we’ll hang out here standing in line at the god station and wait till god decides what to do with you huh. Standin in line at the god station!!!! What a trip………..

Comment by: Robin Edgell

I found the article about the e-bay bidding on Snopes.com in “New of the Weird.” Very interesting. Good luck to you. I hope that you find a truth that fits you….

Comment by: Ir

Fran, it’s about recognizing that you share this space with other people. Real people.

Comment by: Tom Gabriel

I sent the WSJ article to my religious brother-in-law (I’m decidedly not) and noted my appreciation for the effort made to dialog, just as he and I do despite our divergent views. I fully respect believers, and I’ve accepted invitations to attend church/temple/meeting-house services. There’s a regrettable level of intolerance of atheists by believers who fail to grasp that freedom to worship is inseperable from freedom not to believe. To be sure, there’s also regrettable condescension/smugness by atheists toward theism. Messrs. Henderson and Mehta offer a refreshing example of wisdom and tolerance.

Comment by: jainman

Found it on Suleka.com

Hemant, Are you Jain or Atheist?

Comment by: Robin

If you are an atheist why do you say “Oh God”? from the article - “If I could be an atheist pastor?” he says, “Oh God, that would be great!” Also, what would an atheist pastor preach about?

Comment by: UU Kim

A friend forwarded me the WSJ story. I think this is great idea. I would like to know if you have any plans to visit a UU Church.

I don’t think TXatheist was quite clear about Unitarian Universalists. Unitarian Universalism is a non-creedal, non-dogmatic faith that affirms a set of 7 principles the first of which is the inherent worth and dignity of all people and the seventh which the interconnected web of all existance. We draw from a variety of faith traditions. Because we support each person’s responsible search for truth and meaning we have members that identify with a variety of faith traditions: Pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, Theist, Humanist and yes, Atheist. Our ministers are the same way. UU ministers are expected to attend an accredited seminary and go through a rigorous process with our national UU body before being ordained, but yes, Hermant, you could be an Atheist Minister and you wouldn’t be the first.

Comment by: Bill S.

Answers:
1. Found out via the AIM screen that opens up when you log in.

2. Like the idea that neither the christians nor the atheists “won”. Betcha nobody thought it would turn out this way.

3. Want to know what’s so appealing about believing in the supernatural into adulthood.

I’ve been a practicing atheist since my 20s, although raised in the Episcopal church. My wife is an agnostic who went to Roman Catholic schools from 1st grade thru college. Our 4 kids were raised unchurched but with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. They have all attended church or synagogue with their friends, sometimes repeatedly, but never felt the urge to join up. They have done/are doing well in school and are generally regarded as well-balanced, “good” kids. We are frequently mistaken for “christians”.

On the other hand, our property has been vandalized and the kids have suffered bodily harm from christians after entering religious discussions in which they admitted their beliefs - or lack thereof.

A dear friend who is a BAC is convinced that I will “see the light” because I’m reading the Bible - yet is upset because I quote verses out of context (who doesn’t quote the Bible out of context to support whatever argument they’re making?) and put a modern interpretation on others (e. g., Job 14:1 - life sucks, then you die). She insists that Jesus “changed everything” so I shouldn’t worry about the horrific things “the Lord” sanctifies in the (so-called) Old Testament.

Why do christians keep the Old Testament around?

What about all the books that got left behind when Constantine staged the Nicean Steel Cage Match?

What’s the Muslim take on this experiment?

Comment by: h

The ebay auction was mentioned by Kim Komando Computer Show, which ran on Saturday, March 11, 2006. I independently looked it up through a variety of searches on the web.

Comment by: S

I also found out about it from a link from Snopes.com about the ebay sale. It was under the section “weird news”, but I think this website is great! I’ve been enjoying reading some of the postings and there are some really interesting discussions happening.

I didn’t really set out to “know” anything but to listen to the arguments and see how people believe and think.

Something interesting to discuss could be whether people gain comfort from their respective belief system. An argument Christians often make is that they’re comforted by believing in God and the tenents of their religion, and therefore we atheists must be missing something important in their lives. As an athiest however, I feel that not believing in God is comforting, especially in a world where no one seems to agree on what/who/how God is. I can’t go to hell if there is none, right?

Comment by: Tom in Sacramento

S, #70, I don’t understand your last sentence, unless it is intended as humor. (But there are no emoticons) Do you mean to imply that the existence of hell would be dependent on your believing in it?

Tom in Sacramento

Comment by: Tom Davis

I read about your auction in the Seattle Times and thought you might be interested in the following. I wrote it as a potential “My Turn” column for Newsweek magazine.

November 19, 2004

Religious Intolerance Is Alive and Well in America

By Tom Davis

In the fractious, vitriolic election season just past, many people ended up taking a stand, if in no other place than the privacy of the voting booth. An admirable thing to be sure, but stands were not limited to the political arena. Numerous conservatives professed their religious beliefs openly and devoutly, and they were repaid with equally open scorn and derision by a number of those on the left. Liberals reacted to religious intolerance, answering an abhorrence of homosexuality or abortion or secularism with their own brand of intolerance. In campaigning and in cultural conflict, neither faction acted admirably.

I have sympathy for those Americans whose Christian faith is treated as a contemptuous epithet by their political opponents, as my faith is often treated in the same way by Christians. I understand the feelings of fundamentalists in a blue city like Seattle, where my deeply religious coworkers feel they need to keep their beliefs to themselves or risk ostracism. I’ve felt this way for many years, a minority in an intensely religious nation. For I am an atheist.

Let’s get our definitions straight, since in some circles, an admission of atheism is not unlike confessing to a shocking kind of deviance. An atheist is not an anti-theist; the prefix “a-” means “without.” By definition, atheists do not have to oppose the practice of religion, nor need they be in any way intolerant of those who adhere to one. They simply choose to live without God.

I used to refer to myself as an agnostic because there is just no way to prove or disprove God’s existence, until I recognized that this left me no choice but to live without such knowledge. So while I may be an agnostic in theory, I’m an atheist in practice.

This doesn’t mean that I’ve never thought about God, nor believed in God, nor studied the Bible and other scriptures at length and in depth. I have. But as I grew older, I came to the realization that like every other person in the world, past, present, and future, I’m only human, with all the limitations that entails. I have no supernatural powers or transcendent knowledge, nor does anyone else, pretend as they might. All we have is our minds and bodies and one another, and the tiny portion of the universe we occupy. We can imagine and speculate about its creation, but its raison d’être we cannot ascertain.

Some may object that atheism is not a faith, that it is rather the absence of one. But they are wrong. Every belief we hold is rooted in faith. I’ve placed my faith in empiricism, in what we can observe and infer and share with one another. I trust human experience and reason and compassion and courage. Experience and reason have led me to where I am, and together with compassion for my fellow man and woman, the courage to face my ignorance of ultimate truths sustains me.

I resent being characterized by reactionary Christians as somehow bereft of values. I try to be a moral man, a morality informed by my religious upbringing, no doubt, but I don’t need to fall back upon my childhood to decide how to behave as an adult. If anything, I’ve had to work harder to derive the principles by which I live than those who are happy to accept the comforting conventions of their religions, nicely wrapped and tied with a bow.

My principles aren’t much different from theirs, but mine are motivated and justified solely by human thoughts and feelings. They are applied in the practical pursuit of a better life and world for me and my children in the here and now, and not in a quest for better ones to come when we die. I simply have no knowledge of what may come, and I’ve concluded that in this life I will never know.

It is not out of a poverty of imagination that I say this. Like most people, I wouldn’t mind spending an eternity in paradise. But the prospect wouldn’t change how I choose to live my life. And I will not compromise my intellectual honesty by professing belief in something for which I have no evidence, nor will I apologize for my convictions. I can’t imagine a just God would want me to do so. At times, I feel like the anti-Luther: “Here I stand; I can do no other.”

We are going to disagree on the politics that our faiths prompt us to adopt, but arguing about a thing as intensely personal as faith itself is fruitless and leads only to further intolerance. I would ask every man and woman of faith to remember that the Golden Rule applies to atheists and agnostics, too. I would hope this leads to a greater acceptance and respect for the devout minority beliefs we hold, so that we might also express them openly, without embarrassment or fear of derision and scorn.

Tom Davis is a teacher in Seattle.

Comment by: Jessica L

I read an article on AOL Stange but True News. I saw a reference to this web site and decided to check it out.