Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.09.2006 /
Why are you here?
No Preaching - Just short questions
Hidden inside the word learn are 3 letters
Tell us in 2-3 sentences at most what you want to learn here?
We will delete overly long presentations so they don’t clutter our community learning.
(feel free to comment in another post if you need to write long statements)
Comment by: Esther
1I want to dis-learn what I’ve learnt before
from my conservative, evangelical church background
by listening to many REAL people whom I did not have chance to hear before.
Comment by: Ir
2I’d like to learn about people.
I’m also hoping to learn that I’m not the only one who wants to learn about other people, rather than just talk at them or about them.
Sometimes I get discouraged by how often people do talk at or about others without ‘going to the source’ to find out whether:
a) what they are saying is accurate;
b) how those ‘others’ feel about being talked at or talked about.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
3I want to learn what people who DON’T believe are thinking. It’s been a while since I was anything close to that that I have no perspectivbe.
Comment by: Jayson B.
4I would like to learn why so many christians are insistent upon using the “aha! gotcha!” technique against non believers, when it’s completely inneffective.
This is used by many, but the best example is the insulting, cruel, and mean ministry of “the way of the master.” Attempting to trick people with analogies and games of logic that quite grankly, AREN’T good analogies and AREN’T good logic is merely going to insult and turn people off.
I want to know this: when applying this technique, are you truly attempting to convert or are you simply trying to feel superior?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
5Jayson writes [I would like to learn why so many christians are insistent upon using the "aha! gotcha!" technique against non believers, when it's completely inneffective.]
As a believer, I’d kinda like to know why so many do that, too. I’d rather be in some kind of relationship with you, and then if God is really who I’ve found Him to be, it SHOULD become obvious to you in my life that it’s true, and I won’t have to use those arguments to convince you.
Seriously, I think some use the “gotcha” stuff to bolster their own faith more than try to convince you to have faith.
Comment by: TXatheist
6I’d like to learn how we atheists can break down the barrier of negative aspects that are against us. Perfect example. When Michael Newdow tried to get under god out of the pledge most of the population was against it. I want to hear how we can convince xians that freedom of religion means no favoritism for religion including religious slogans in gov’t or prayers before city council meetings. Don’t be offended, if you can’t provide insight then please try to find a way.
Comment by: Ir
7So what would you like to learn here, fran?
Comment by: Texan
8I would like to learn what would be a good approach for Christians would be to take when talking to non-Christians and non-believers. I have seen many indicators on how and why aethiests believe what they do, but how would a believer reach them? Obviously not by preaching to them and not using manipulation or arguing.
I heard mention from Siamang (I think) that if there was a god, he would be right with him because,who wouldn’t want to be with God?–or something like that-I should find the quote….
So non-believers, what would work on you?
Comment by: Ir
9Fran writes:
So you don’t want to learn anything here?
Comment by: TXatheist
10Texan,
Let’s ask you this:) How can we get you to accept we are atheists and unwillingly to become a believer? Nothing bitter, just understand I am content and intellectually happy I’m an atheist.
Comment by: Don Borling
11This is the first time I’ve seen your web-site…really enjoy it.
I am a Lutheran minister in Oralnd Park, IL … have been here 32 years. We are committed to openness and diversity … and after our worship last night … several people mentioned the artice about Mr. Mehta.
Jim Henderson … I would enjoy hooking up with you sometime … to discuss religion, the church, and where we are going. The best to you. Joy —- Don Borling
Comment by: Ron
12I would like to learn another aspect of how to truely make a positive difference in the world. Obviously, what Christians have been doing has not been working in all cases, so what is the solution without just handing over our faith to those who choose to believe differently? Without preaching, sharing out faith is a part of our faith. That shouldn’t be a crime because others disagree. At the same token, sharing our faith should not mean passing judgment on others…that is a crime. We need to find a solution for sharing our faith.
Comment by: TXatheist
13Ron,
How can we get you to accept that atheists are content in not-believing?
Comment by: Ron
14I do accept that. Are Christians going to be the only ones to make sacrifices though? If we are going to be tolerant of atheists, is that tolerance going to be reciprocated. Read your comment on #7 for clarification on what I am talking about.
Comment by: skikid
15I am learning a lot about conservative/ evangelical christains… I guess I have a lot of misconceptions many of which are challenged here. Its great.
Comment by: TXatheist
16Ron,
I’m reading but I need to be specific. Be blunt, I have thick skin:)
Comment by: TXatheist
17Ron,
Sorry, I need you to be specific on what in #7 you are referring to.
Comment by: Ron
18TX,
To make sure that I understand you let me ask you a question? Are you upset that our money says, “In God We Trust?” or that the pledge says “One Nation Under God?” Because you are right, I don’t want to misunderstand you.
Comment by: TXatheist
19fran,
have you visited http://www.thegodmovie.com concerning JC? Or visited http://www.jesuspuzzle.com
I haven’t looked at the second one yet myself but I did buy the DVD from the first one.
Comment by: TXatheist
20Ron,
Yes, especially since they weren’t that way just 60 years ago. Please continue.
Comment by: Ron
21Let me ask another question, If atheists are wanting Christians to get rid of all evidence that we believe in God and just accept that athesist are what they are, what middle ground are athists willing to make? I would think that even atheists can agree that some good has come from Christianity, why do Christians have to be the only tolerant ones?…and I do agree that we need to be more tolerant.
Comment by: TXatheist
22Fair enough, now please hold on tight:) I want the paper currency to be atheist dollars. I want them for the next 60 years to say “We aren’t under any imaginary beings.” I want the Humanist Manifesto put up anywhere the 10 commandments are and the 10 C taken down. I want the Pledge to have the same wording like the currency, one nation with no fictional characters watching over us, indivisible with liberty and justice for all… I want all public school books to explain why the bible is absolutely non-scientific and specifically how life could not have arouse the way the bible says it did. Now, take some deep breaths and ask me if the atheists are getting the atheist view displayed or we really are asking for a middle ground on these issues. :)
Comment by: Texan
23TXAtheist,
I really do respect your belief. It’s not my goal to change you, just as it’s not Jim’s goal to change Hemant.
I realize that there are going to be atheists who are content to be who they are. That is completely fine with me. I do not want to change them or you, but reach an understanding.
However, my curiosity comes into play when I wonder what if there is an atheist who is still questioning things in life but cannot stand traditional Christian evangelism. What are some things Christians can do without comprimising the realationship they would have with that person and answer their questions, if they have any?
BTW, I cannot stand current evangelism techniques. It has all kinds of problems, even though it’s well-intentioned.
I really do appreciate any insight here.
Comment by: Texan
24TX, A good point made in #26. I will be chewing on that.
Comment by: Ron
25TX,
Comment by: TXatheist
26Texan,
There is no short answer because even biblical scholars disagree on things. I’d just say I interpret it this way in the bible and share your point. If it matters I do look up to Bishop John Spong who, imo, is trying to bring xianity to the 21st century.
Comment by: Ron
27Sorry,
I havent learned how to use the Block Quote yet.
Comment by: TXatheist
28If someone says they are an atheist just say fine. That’s what I do when someone says they are xian. If you or they attempt to convert then it either becomes irritating to both or they agree to disagree. Texan,
Comment by: Taren
29Jim, might we figure out a way to be able to see the previous posts aswell? I was curious as to what people are saying now was because of what i said about the leaning experience.
Comment by: Ir
30Ron, are you the Pastor Ron who preached at Park Community Church when Hemant visited? Or a different Ron? Just wondering.
Comment by: ignoreFRAN
31Maybe it’s time to police ourselves. So I invite you to ignore fran. She lives in her own fairy-tale world that other’s have fairy-tales about life but she doesn’t. Her specific fairy-tale is the she is a teacher. More likely she is a YELLER! at least that is what is implied by here response to Ir “I TEACH.” So join me in a non-official, but hopefully effective move, to simply ignore fran by not reading or responding to her comments. It’s simple, one can’t teach, even if they could, without someone reading or listening.
Comment by: skikid
32Is the formatting off in this post for anyone else???
Comment by: Jayson B.
33In response to the question of how to preach to atheists: You don’t. It’s a waste of your evangelical time as well as ours for two different reasons:
#1 Jesus, TWICE, in the bible, tells us that there is *one* unforgiveable sin: the sin of doubting the existance of the holy spirit. We cannot be forgiven for this sin. So, as a christian, there is no use for you preaching to atheists since we are condemmned to hell no matter how good, honest, caring, giving we are. once we have doubted the existence of the holy spirit, our souls are no longer worth the effort in god’s eyes. We are doomed, and your evengelism is better pushed towards people who you can “save.”
#2 Even if God allowed atheists to be saved, christians still evangelize the wrong way. They attempt to get us to believe in Christ, but they’re missing one step entirely. Before we can believe in Christ, we need to believe in a God. And before we can believe in a God, we need to believe in something supernatural. Your trying to get up the stairs by jumping 5 stairs at a time.
Comment by: Ron
34I am pretty sure that I am the one that accidentally messed up the formatting. How do I fix it? Ir, I am not the pastor of the Church. I live in Texas. Texan is my wife. I am awaiting acceptance into seminary though.
Comment by: Question Everything
35TXatheist Would you accept “One nation under Good”? Religion is the beliefs and “fairytales” of SPECIFIC groups (Catholic, Mormon, Zen Buddist ect.) about a pre-life and a post-life. The belief or non belief in a greater intellegence is not religion so anyone that wants to delete “God” from the general conscience just wants to delete Goodness??
Comment by: TXatheist
36Uh, Jews believe in what type of pre and post life? That is your opinion or religion if you will that there is a higher intelligence, much like a Deist.
Comment by: Ron
37TX,
Tell me again what you are hoping to learn here? Without the agenda since we already agree that Christians don’t need an agenda.
Comment by: Question Everything
38Jews would fit between the (). Diest might fit my beliefs. I mainly believe as a human race we need a core defination of what is good and I see atheists fighting any core belief. I do not beleve homo sapiens are capable of being the best thing in the universe.
Comment by: TXatheist
39How can I get xians to understand I am content and in no way willing to become a xian? That’s what I want to know/learn here.
Comment by: Ir
40Ron - thanks for the reply. You said Texan is your wife? Cool! :)
Comment by: TXatheist
41QE,
Have you read the Humanist Manifesto? #1 or 2 or 3
Comment by: Question Everything
42No, where is it published or how can I read it?
Comment by: TXatheist
43http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html
# 3 is at the bottom and linked off that page.
Comment by: Texan
44Jayson B.,
you wrote:
To me, doubt is integral to faith. If I can’t question what I believe and have it stand up to the test, what good is what I believe in? I think that verse is misunderstood myself, but perhaps I’m just a Christian “cherry picking” which verses I like and those I don’t like…..
To be honest, that is a very hard verse for me to comprehend and at this point I don’t know what to do with it.
In the NT, when Jesus returned after being crucified, the disciple Thomas doubted if he was real. Jesus invited him to touch him and believe. He invited him to come and see if he was real. To me, that is not a God who backs down from questions but comes forward to help find an answer.
I think those who don’t doubt their faith at some point are not seriously considering the faith they follow. The conclusion we make after the questions appears to be the main difference between believers and atheists….which is ours to choose. :)
Comment by: TXatheist
45Ron,
How can I accomplish that?
Comment by: Ron
46TX,
Help me out again, accomplish what?
Comment by: TXatheist
47#43
How can I get xians to understand I am content and in no way willing to become a xian? That’s what I want to know/learn here.
Comment by: Jayson B.
48Texan, the two verses are pretty clear. When I was a Christian I would make apologies for many of the passages in the bible and playing them off as poetic or allegory, but these two are *very* clear.
Luke 12:10:
“Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven”
And then there’s Mark 3:29:
“but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
I think Jesus made it pretty clear: he died for all of our sins………except *that* one.
I typically use this to show that if I’m willing to take the chance of an eternal Hell, it should show how convinced I am that I will *not* be going to hell, because I feel it doesn’t exist.
Regardless, christians, in all honesty, should be using it to simply give up the cause of converting atheists. To ignore such passages would be ignoring the law and will of God.
Comment by: Ron
49Jayson,
In the Greek, the word “against” literally means “in the face of.” If you were face to face with Christ (meaning there is no doubt) and you tell him you no he exists and what he teaches but you don’t care or want any part of it. That is what those verses are saying.
Comment by: TXatheist
50Ron,
How can I get Ron to understand that I am content being an atheist? A no reply sends a connotation to me that it can’t be done by you or you are unwilling to.
Comment by: Ron
51TX,
Just because I am searching for middle ground with you on a couple of issues, doesn’t mean that I am trying to convert you. I am looking for areas where we can agree. I have tried to make it clear that I agree with Jim, the way Christians have been acting is wrong.
It is not fair for me to make arguments against evolution dealing with partial understanding. I accept that and recognize it as wrong. The flip side of that is true too. It is not fair for atheists to make arguments on Christianity dealing with partial information either. If you are atheist and happy I accept that. Me helping other people have a clearer view of Christianity is not me trying to convert.
Comment by: Jayson B.
52Ron,
#1 the bible wasn’t written in Greek.
#2 “against” isn’t greek, it’s old english. And it doesn’t mean literally “in the face of” it means in opposition.
The verses are clear. The re-interpretation you offer up completely neuters the meaning, rendering them useless, and calls in to question why they would be in existence in the first place.
God won’t save Atheists no matter what, period.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
53TXAtheist, you wrote, How can I get xians to understand I am content and in no way willing to become a xian? That’s what I want to know/learn here.
In the old TV show “Dragnet”, in an episode where a cop was found to be on the take, a character was talking about how awful that was, and Joe Friday replied “That’s just the trouble: we have to recruit from the human race”.
My point being, that’s also the case with Christians. Most that I know, once you have made clear your lack of interest, won’t press the issue. If there is a basis for friendship with you, they’ll roll with friendship; if not, you’ll probably part company.
But since we recruit from the human race, and humans are funny sometimes, you’ll encounter the occasional Christian who keeps pressing, perhaps thinking that if you just heard the right verse or illustration or story, then click, you’ll convert.
The same things happen on the atheism side: Most here on OTM are willing to engage in dialogue and conversation, but some prefer to use ridicule and sarcasm hoping that maybe they can save one more poor lost soul from the deception of belief in God. OK. As George Costanza observed about skin care, “Wash, dry, move on.”
…and that may be the first time Joe Friday and George Costanza were quoted in the same post! ; )
Rick L in TX
Comment by: TXatheist
54Atheism does not equal evolution. One is a religious view and one is sound science. I too am here to help Christians see a clearer view of xianity but from the atheist perspective. I have much more than a partial understanding of it.
Comment by: Ron
55Jayson,
This is probably an area where we will have to agree to disagree. I completely understand what you are saying but I don’t agree.
Comment by: TXatheist
56Rick L,
I understand your point but it’s sarcasm/ridicule to you it appears. To us, it’s making light of something exactly as you put it, deception.
Comment by: Taren
57I find it intriguiging that we are part of a host chritianity site, and their are people incouraging people to ignore eachother. Should we who follow in the steps of jesus christ actually follow? Everyone should be heard weither we agree with them or not. Even the people who are praying for hermant. I encourage everyone to keep an open mind on this topic.
Comment by: Jayson B.
58Ron,
there is no democracy when it comes to fact. You can disagree with me that the sky is blue, but that doesn’t change the fact that the sky is blue.
If the writers of the bible meant that I needed to be facing jesus directly and denying him, they would have written that. What you are trying to tell me is that the english transalation of the bible has been completely incorrect since it’s inception because they use a word that means something completely different to 100% of the population.
Comment by: fran
59Why do you folks have so much difficulty with the fact that some people don’t believe in the fantasy of Christ and they don’t believe he is the son of god Or that there is a god for that matter, especially one that drowns infants in their cribs because he refuses to cloak to the reality of the world’s suffering because of his silly cloying fantasy of eternal life. The absurdity of some of you is beyond rebuke
Comment by: Ir
60Jayson, those verses don’t undo Jesus’ command to ‘go make disciples of all nations’.
Nevertheless, I don’t think a Christian should even need Bible verses to know that they should cease any attempts to persuade an atheist of their faith once the atheist has said clearly and unequivocally “I’m not interested”. That’s basic civility.
I listened to the WotM programs and I agree that that sort of basic civility was evidently not a trait of the hosts - unfortunately.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
61TXAtheist, re your post #60. Exactly! What it looks like from within the world view is not what it looks like from outside the world view.
Christian view: Evangelism when continued after a “no-thanks” has been clearly articulated looks like a way of caring. fran’s posts seem sarcastic and overly harsh in tone.
Atheist view: Evangelism feels pushy and rude when continued after a “no-thanks” has been clearly articulated and fran’s posts seem making light of something exactly as you put it, deception.
One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: darci
62These dialogues have really made me *stop* and think. As I read about different people’s thoughts and hear about their varied experiences, it has made me realize I have a lot more questions than answers, and that’s a good thing.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
63oops. Forgot to close italics. Sorry!
Comment by: Jayson B.
64Ir,
It certainly doesn’t undo it, but it clear makes exceptions for it. Why would god want you to waste valuable time and energy trying to convert those that god will never forgive?
WOTM breaks my heart. I’m on the verge of making a parody website in regards to them. They are cruel, judgemental jerks who wrap themselves in self righteousness who get a kick out of trying to humiliate people in public. they should be ashamed of themselves.
Comment by: TXatheist
65Isn’t there a verse in Matthew 6:5 I think that says don’t be hypocrites and pray publicly but go in the closet?? xians take on that please.
Comment by: Ir
66Jayson wrote:
I take your point - but before a Christian knows that a person is convinced of the non-existence of God, I can see why that Christian would try to follow the Great Commission and make some attempt to share his/her faith with the person.
I mean - we all do that; we all say “Hey, have you heard about…?” if something excites/interests us. To me that’s ok; what isn’t ok is not backing off if the other persons strongly indicates they’ve heard all they want to on the topic already.
I agree.
I didn’t enjoy listening to the program and I doubt I’ll ever do it again unless it’s a similar situation where I want to hear the guest more than I don’t want to hear the hosts. In other words, I really wanted to hear Hemant on the program and that’s the only reason I listened to it.
Comment by: Texan
67All I was wondering was if there was anything else Atheists would like to see regarding Christian approaches.
Ok. Now I have my answer. “Don’t touch! Don’t ask!”
The answer came in not-so-nice terms when the question that was posted was an attempt at politeness.
Thanks for clearing this up.
Please don’t judge the website/blog on the basis of what bloggers might enter. It is a place to share ideas, not be “cruel, judgemental jerks who wrap themselves in self-righteousness who get a kick out of trying to humiliate people in public.”
Jim, nor anyone else at OTM has done a thing wrong. They have acted most honorably the whole time. If anything, I have acted wrongly here. Read some of the other entries in the Archives for a history lesson, please.
Comment by: Ir
68TXatheist I always thought that verse meant, don’t pray in public if the only reason you’re doing so is to show off how holy you are. I never thought it meant, don’t pray in public, period.
Comment by: TXatheist
69Ir,
I’m not saying you’re wrong at all, I’m asking and your answer seems very good.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
70TXAtheist, re your #69 above. I have not understood that passage as a blanket directive against any public prayers at all, but rather as a caution against public prayer for the sake of being seen and perceived as a righteous person.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: TXatheist
71Texan,
Neither have we been those things. If you don’t think we’ve been provoked you are mistaken. I asked xians how we could go about getting you all to understand we are content in our atheism. Please answer.
Comment by: Ir
72Texan, you didn’t necessarily do anything wrong. Have you listened to the program which Jayson is talking about - it really is horrible how the hosts treated Hemant; it’s embarrassing to decent Christians, in my opinion.
Most people here are doing their best to be civil, but it’s a public website and anyone can post here - so there’s no guarantee that everyone you run into here will return politeness for politeness.
Comment by: Ir
73Thanks TXatheist.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
74Hey y’all, enjoyed the dialogue as always. Gotta run for now. See you later.
Comment by: Texan
75Thanks for the comments guys.
I admit, I haven’t seen what ya’ll are talking about. How do you get there?
TXAtheist,
I think I have tried to answer you when you say you are content being an atheist.
I said:
Maybe I didn’t explain myself fully. Understanding that atheists for the most part are happy where they are, if they had questions, what is the best way for a Christian to answer? I think “no Christin lingo” would be one. If a person doesn’t want to here it, the matter won’t be pressed….at least by me.
Does this help? I hope I’ve answered you well enough.
I have another question too.
If someone has wrong information about something, is it somebody else’s job to correct them? (not neccessarily a religious thing,anything)
I’m just putting it out there because it’s something I wonder about. I’m not looking to trap anyone….except maybe myself. :)
Comment by: Ir
76Texan, if you go to Hemant’s blog (the link was just posted at the top of this page), he has a link to the Way of the Master programs on the right hand side of his blog page.
Comment by: Jayson B.
77Texan, aside from a rare few, this blog has been wonderful. My comments, if you read them, were about “the way of the master,” ministry, NOT typical christians. the way of the master uses bait and switch and ‘traps’ in order to try to make fools of people in public.
This blog has been a great discussion place for me. Most of my direct confrontations with christians involve being ganged upon and mocked for being an atheist.
being an atheist is not as easy as people think. People don’t make this decision to be popular.
Comment by: Amanda
78To whom it may concern,
I am wondering what is athiesm?
How can one look at the beauty and majesty of this world , the wonder in a cild’s eye and not see a God. I am a firm believer in a higher authority, but I also enjoy learning about others beliefs.
thank you,
Amanda Duke @ Rddsprincess@aol.com
Comment by: Ron
79All,
If anything that I said led anyone to believe that I was defending the way of the master thing. I am sorry and let me say right now. I don’t support that.
Comment by: Texan
80I apologize for getting emotional up there. Long day and I misread some things.
Ir,
Thanks for the post. I’ll go check it out.
Jayson,
I too have immensely enjoyed this blog. I’m actually kinda new at it so my experience blogging elsewhere doesn’t exist. It truly has opened my mind to a world I didn’t realize was as deep as atheisim and I really do need and learn from all the input gathered. I think it’s sad that so many Christians won’t deal with atheists. You must feel alone.
One of the biggest surprises I’ve learned here is how much I have in common with most of the atheists who blog here. Who’d'of thunk it?
I think it rocks–breaking a Christian bubble!
Comment by: Ron
81I agree!
Comment by: TXatheist
82Amanda,
I see the beauty of the world too but from a naturalist standpoint and I appreciate this life I’ve been given just as much.
Comment by: TXatheist
83Texan,
I’ll put your question in religious terms. Have you ever considered the idea that Jesus never actually existed? Not that you believe that but that it’s possibly true? http://www.thegodmovie.com
Comment by: Texan
84Yes, I’ve thought about it. I’ve wondered about any evidence that would suggest his existance.
Comment by: Taren
85“Why do you folks have so much difficulty with the fact that some people don’t believe in the fantasy of Christ and they don’t believe he is the son of god Or that there is a god for that matter, especially one that drowns infants in their cribs because he refuses to cloak to the reality of the world’s suffering because of his silly cloying fantasy of eternal life. The absurdity of some of you is beyond rebuke”
I have this feeling about christianity and athiesm, us as christians should respect the fact that everyone is not like us, and that there will walys be a fran’ out there..(in the words of a good chritian rap band “every where we go we know someone’s gunna critisize out flow” It is our path as chritians to spread the word of god, but i aslo believe that people who are athiests should have respect toward those who wish to believe in jesus christ. All belifs aside- we are still human and respect is a big deal. Alot of my friends are non-christian, and I do not have to preach the word of god for them to see it in me, and several of them have began comming to youth group because they were friends with me, and saw the changes god could make in a persons life.
So again, have respect- and if your going to say, which i suspect you will, that you wont respect christians because they try and pressure you into their faith remember that there are 6 billion people in the world, we are not all the same. Dont narrow us down, because we are all different.
ps. I did not in any way wish for this to start and argument, i just felt the need to say something about this subject. Let me know what you think, or if i am way off here.
Comment by: Taren
86Jim, i am sorry that was so long. =(
Comment by: TXatheist
87Taren,
How do we get xians to realize that atheists are content and don’t need you to even attempt to prostelytize? If you say it’s a directive then we must listen? We can respond with reasons why we are atheists?
Comment by: Taren
88Im sorry, im only a junior.. could you put that in lamens terms? please.
Comment by: Taren
89- Darn, I have to go - lunch is over. TXatheist please respond, i will check when school is out and hopefully leave an answer- or what i believ is my answer =)
Comment by: Jayson B.
90Texan,
It *is* lonely. Let me shed some light for you, I don’t think christians see this side of atheism.
Imagine people constantly assuming that you’re a christian. Imagine, in many circumstances, having to explain to them that you’re not. Imagine long, drawn out debates where they’re constantly trying to “get you” to suddenly understand what they believe, and when they fail, look at you as if your beliefs are an insult, even though you didn’t put them forward.
Imagine your father goading you to go to church whenever you visit on a sunday so much that you stop visting your parents on weekends altogether.
Imagine christmas with your family, sitting around opening presents, and your father getting your little brother to confront you about your atheism in front of the whole family. Imagine everyone ganging up on you because “how can you not believe” and ‘I don’t how you could think we came from monkeys.”
Imagine feeling like you’re seperated from you family just because you can’t accept the same things they do………even though you never wanted it to be a part of the deal.
Imagine trying to date girls, where despite being good looking, intelligent, and caring, they either they are turned off by your atheism, or you’re turned off by their faith. Imagine trying to find someone else who’s not only a good fit and a good time, but someone who’s also an atheist…..a rarity in itself.
Imagine all that, and you’ll barely begin to understand the difficulty in being an atheist.
Comment by: Ron
91Jayson,
It does sound bad, How can we help?
Comment by: Jayson B.
92Hugs. Or money.
Or hugs and money.
Comment by: Ron
93XXX$$$
Comment by: Taren
94Jayson B.
Im really sorry you have to experience this, and as a family i would certainly think their acceptance level would be much higher, your family claims to be christian? or chatholic or whatever but they are hyporites right? Being a christian is following in chhrists footsteps, and by badgering you about your belifs i dont believe they are following their own beliefs.
Is there any questions I can try and answer? you have us a small sliver of the reality of you life right- or am i mistaken. i would like to talk further!!!
in he who leads me.
Comment by: Taren
95*given
Comment by: Winn
96Jayson,
Imagine people constantly assuming that you are the kind of Christian that they have pigeon-holed because of TV evangelist, etc. Imagine, in many circumstances, having to explain to them that you are not that kind of Christian. Imagine long, drawn out debates where they’re constantly trying to “get you” to suddenly understand what they believe about Christians is correct, and when they fail, they look at you as if your “different kind of Christian belief” is an insult to them.
Imagine your father goading you about “going to church” when you drop by afterwards, so much so that you stop visiting your parents after you have attended church.
Imagine Christmas with your family, sitting around opening presents, and your father getting your little brother to confront you about your Christianity in front of the whole family. Imagine everyone ganging up on you because “how can you believe such simple, stupid, unscientific stuff” and “how can you believe that there is a God who created the world including monkeys”
Imagine feeling like you are separated from your family just because you want to be a “follower of Jesus.”
Imagine trying to date girls, where despite being good looking, intelligent, and caring, they either are turned off by your belief in Jesus, or you are turned off because all they want to do is “jump into bed.” Imagine trying to fine someone else who is not only a good fit and a good time, but someone who is also a Christian like yourself, a rarity in itself.
Imagine all that, and you’ll barely began to understand the difficulty in being a Christian.
Same shoe, different foot! Same song, different verse.
Jayson, I am not making light of your situation, only pointing out that this scenario can work both ways. Loneliness sucks, Atheist or Christian.
Comment by: Texan
97I respect your courage Jayson B. Thank you for being so open with us. There are not very many people who will go against the grain of society, or their family, because of their convictions. I’m sorry they treat you that way. Family can be so dicey.
X$X$X$
Comment by: Taren
98winn,
I agree to disagree or I agree but disagree- I dont know but the reality is that athiesm must be a much more loney situation because we have jesus to take comfort in! in every situation, even if you have no mortal friends, we have jesus to lean on, to talk to at will- he is there for us when we need him, and he will never let us down, even when it seemes like he has! He is the way the truth and the light and our friend Dont ever forget he is there to look to Winn!!!
Comment by: TXatheist
99Winn,
Are you saying christian women are not a majority of the US population of females or your type of christian female is hard to find? There are maybe .02 percent of the population that is female and atheist as a rough guess.
Comment by: Taren
100texan-
Agreed. I commend you for having the courage to speak freely about your feelings and life.
Comment by: Jayson B.
101Winn,
the only way that it works both ways is if you switch the words around. Shall we exchange atheist for coal miner and say that it works?
Christians outnumber Atheists in this country 99 to 1. To pretend that your super majority can equate with the extreme minority is not only absurd, but it is insulting.
I think the last line explains it best “finding a girl who is christian, a rarity in itself”. I trip over christians going to the coffee machine.
The victimization of Christianity ended long ago, especially in this country, and it bothers me when christians still pretend that their “plight” in this country is one of isolation and of witch hunts when their holiday gets the day off in this country above all others.
Comment by: Taren
102TXatheist,
Take into account the people who claim to be christain, wither it be ther religion on myspace, to their family- their pastor or anyone, and have not truly accepted god into their lives- or for that matter do not live by their faith. Sure alot of people are christians, and believe But how many of them follow in his footsteps, its a rarity that is *sometimes* hard to find.
Sorry if im speaking for you Winn but thats my perspective on the subject
Comment by: Taren
103Jayson,
I feel like your using to big of a perspective on the christian faith, and the people who are a part of it. Not everyone is the same in their christian faith and we dont have to be, thats the perk of being a christian!!
Sure you trip over christians on your way to the coffe machine, but I dont think they are true followers of christ if they treat you that way, jesus would not that put you down for you beliefs but tried to answer your questions so you could gain a better undertsanding. Right?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
104Jayson writes “The victimization of Christianity ended long ago, especially in this country, and it bothers me when christians still pretend that their “plight” in this country is one of isolation and of witch hunts when their holiday gets the day off in this country above all others.” As a Christ-follower, Jayson, I too am tired of hearing that rhetoric. Christians persecuted in America? Gimme a break…
Comment by: Taren
105but would *try
Comment by: Taren
106i dont even understand what jayson said there =) i feel really young here lol, big words are hard to digest.
Comment by: Ir
107Winn wrote:
It can - except, Christian families are supposed to embody the love of Christ and it doesn’t seem like Jayson’s family has done that.
Also, it’s not necessarily so devastating to an atheist family having someone become a Christian, as it is for a Christian family having someone leave the faith, because the Christian family may well now worry that their child is going to hell. There’s no equivalent fear like that for an atheist family. Their child may be deluded, in their opinion, but their child at least has not put his/her eternal destiny in jeopardy.
Definitely. Jayson, I’m so sorry your family has treated you the way they have, to the point you don’t even want to go home at weekends.
I think you’re right to be wary of getting into a serious relationship with a woman who holds any sort of strong religious convictions. But perhaps there are more women out there than you think who, while perhaps not calling themselves atheists, are open to understanding and accepting your worldview.
Comment by: Taren
108Ir, you always put things into perspective. Great job..And I totally agree. ( i think i said something like that above)
Comment by: Texan
109By the way, I agree, the Interview with WOTM and Hemant was horrible. I’ve only heard worse badgering and rudeness from politicians. They wouldn’t listen to him and would insult him at the same time! they SHOULD be ashamed of themselves! If anyone treated them the way they treated Hemant, they would feel martyred.
Please know that all Christians are not like that at all!
*Kudos to Hemant for being a graceful human being. He continues to impress me.
Comment by: Siamang
110This site alone is testament to the fact that all Christians aren’t like the Way of the Master.
Comment by: Texan
111Dare I say?
Praise God!
;)
Comment by: Taren
112-meep- Me too AMEN! -.*
Comment by: Winn
113Ir, you wrote:
That’s a broad general observation. I have a close friend whose mother said to him when he chose Christianity as a path over being an atheist, “where have I gone wrong that my son would become a Christian.” According to him she still “frets” over that to this day. She certainly worried that something was amiss in her son’s choice.
Taren, I was not suggesting that this was my experience, but that it could be the experience of a Christian. The kind of words about Jesus you wrote in your comment possibly make sense to “insiders” but may not make any sense to “outsiders” and may in fact give off an appearance of being “simplistic and unreflective.”
It’s always interesting to see how folks reflect on what is written by another. Of course, we all bring baggage to the conversation. But, what I wrote doesn’t mean whatever you want it to mean, it only means what I intended it to mean.
Jayson, out of curiosity, you said:
Do you take these holidays off as well or true to your atheism, do you ask your employer to allow you to work or find a place to serve others who are like yourself?
Comment by: Jayson B.
114Winn,
That’s a strawman argument. That means that you’re intentionally misinterpreting or attacking a piece of my argument out of context in order to “knock it down easily.”
Whether or not I have to day the day off on christmas doesn’t change the fact that christ’s birth is the only nationally recognized religious holiday. Don’t change the subject.
And what does it matter that a christian *could* experience those things? I COULD experience Cancer, but that doesn’t mean that I should go to a cancer victim and pretend I know what they’re going through.
Comment by: Ir
115Winn, I didn’t mean to imply that it never causes any distress to a parent who is not a Christian, if a child converts to Christianity.
I just don’t see that it can be as extreme as the anguish and fear of a Christian parent who sees his/her child seduced by lies of Satan into abandoning God and now believes his/her child is headed for hell.
Comment by: Siamang
116Winn asked:
“Do you take these holidays off as well or true to your atheism, do you ask your employer to allow you to work or find a place to serve others who are like yourself?”
I’ve always liked that question.
I’m an atheist, Winn. I’m gonna guess there are some republicans in the house. Do they take Labor day off? Or do they work and boycott it because it celebrates labor unions? Or do they just grill hotdogs and watch Jerry Lewis like everyone else?
Winn, I celebrate Christmas. I celebrate Easter. I celebrate the holidays of Santa Claus and the Bunny. I also celebrate the heart-shaped greeting card day, and the shamrock-shake, wear green or get pinched day. One of my favorites is the let’s dress up the kids as spongebob and hand out candy day.
I’m sure you recognized all of those religious holidays I mentioned, even though I didn’t mention any of the religious aspects of them.
My office is closed on Christmas and Easter. But I wouldn’t want to work them anyway, as I celebrate them with my family.
Comment by: Ir
117I know a British citizen resident in the U.S. who perhaps should go to work dressed in mourning clothes on July 4. But in fact he takes the day off like everyone else :)
Comment by: Siamang
118Lol, Ir. My grandmother was british, and she also said that she didn’t celebrate the 4th of july because her side lost!
Comment by: Siamang
119Any bets to how long before we hear the old chestnut that “Atheists have a holiday too, April 1st!”
I guess that’s only if Kirk Cameron posts here.
Comment by: Winn
120Jayson,
It’s merely a question of curiosity as I stated. Since you don’t believe that it is “your holiday” by the use of the word “their” implying Christians, then what do you do on such a day to contest its inappropriateness. Nothing beyond that was my intention.
Ir, “I just don’t see that it can be as extreme.” It was to my friends mom.
Comment by: Jayson B.
121I never, in no way, shape, form, or language, ever implied that it was inapprorpriate. I used it as an example that christianity is not the martyred, behind closed doors, persecuted religion that some people claim that it is. it is as mainstream as apple pie. *I* am the minority.
Comment by: Ir
122Wasting a day off wouldn’t be an effective way to try to change the holiday rules, so atheists may as well enjoy it however they choose. Jews always have, as best I know - what I hear is that it’s traditional for them to go to the movies on Christmas Day.
I respect what you say; I haven’t had experience with a mom in that situation in deep distress. I am acquainted with some Christian parents dealing with the anguish of having children who have left the faith and that’s all I know about first-hand.
Comment by: Texan
123Kirk Cameron–GRRR
I think I really had an epiphamy (sp) after listening to that horrible interview. I have a “verse of the day” set up on my computer screen (yes, I’m a dork) and for me, it’s usually a source of comfort, inspiration or guidance of some kind. (Granted, some mean more to me than others, but I digress.)
I was closing down for the day and re-read my verse after listening to that interview. The emotion I experienced when I reread that verse, which was encouraging to me today, was a sick feeling of great uncomforatbleness with Kirk Cameron’s voice screaming in my head. –and I wanted nothing to do with it.
I thought to myself, if this is anything similar to what happens when an atheist feels like when they have been treated badly by a Christian , no wonder they want nothing to do with faith or God! (I know it’s more than just one thing that brings a person to the conclusion of atheisim, but in this case, I think I can relate)
Have a good evening all!
Comment by: leopold stango
124leo here hey did ya know atheists have a holiday and they’re always whining about not having one . It’s April 1st
Comment by: leopold stango
125leo here again, Do you know the difference between and atheist and a spider on the wall. It’s spider, spider on the wall ain’t you got no sense at all , can’t you see that walls been plastered, get off that wall you dirty……………I ain’t going to hell for saying it , fill in the blank nutso
Comment by: Siamang
126Winner! We have a winner!
Comment by: Ir
127leo, do you have a friend named fran?
Comment by: Winn
128Jayson,
I did not, and if I did, should not have said or implied that you were not a minority. However, it is my opinion, that majority people can have similar experiences to majority people.
I trust that you “find someone else who’s not only a good fit and a good time, but someone who’s also an atheist…” if that will bring you happiness and fulfillment.
Comment by: TXatheist
129Winn,
Here is my wish list if you will. First, we literally are asking the gov of TX to have a Day of Reason to justify the Day of Prayer. If we had both I’d be more ok with the latter being done. Feb 12 is not only Abe Lincoln’s bday but also Darwin. Every year there are small events http://www.darwinday.org and I’d gladly work xmas day if our society/gov’t acknowledged darwinday just as a small sacrifice. Everyone in my family celebrates xmas for secular and religious reasons.