Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.11.2006 /
Someone asked this on our What Would You Like to Learn Here? post (comment # 4)
“I would like to learn why so many christians are insistent upon using the “aha! gotcha!” technique against non believers, when it’s completely inneffective”
Which leads me to this post.
A few posts back Hemant used the phrase “Oh God” and also playfully mentioned that perhaps he should consider becoming the first “Atheist Pastor”
As a veteran evangelical I knew how that would sound to born again people and waited for the predictable response that our earlier commentor mentions.
Frankly I’m embrassed at the intellectual laziness we (Christians) exhibit and the often ham fisted and crude approaches we use in our (very poor) attempts to engage with those who choose to not believe the way we do.
I asked Hemant to respond to this question…
Why did I say “Oh God” in the article? Because that’s how I talk. It’s called a figure of speech. For those who are interested, I also say “Bless You” when someone sneezes. And “Merry Christmas” to my friends. And “Jesus Christ… ” when something odd happens. This is not blasphemy. And I’m not invoking a Christian God when I say these things. And I mean no disrespect. It’s just how I talk. :)
But… what would an Atheist minister preach about? Maybe something like this…
Let us thank our family, friends, and loved ones for making our lives what they are.
Let’s make good with our lives because there’s nothing else afterwards.
Let’s create a heaven on earth.
Let’s respect people for what they do, and not simply what they believe.
Let’s help each other out because no one else will do it.
Let’s do what makes us happy, as long as we are not stopping anyone else from doing the same.
Let’s unite with our similarities instead of separating ourselves due to our differences.
Amen. :)
PS - Pastors - This could make a great sermon series - What an Atheist would say to the church…
Comment by: Ir
1[drwinn, thanks for fixing the comments page :)]
Jim, with one change, which I made in bold below, I could easily envisage hearing the list of things you mentioned in a UU message or a message in a very liberal Christian church (although that opinion is based on only a little experience with such groups):
Why do many Bible-believing Christians get so het up about what is not said in a message like the above that they seem unable to appreciate what is being said?
Also, why do so many Christians taunt atheists with “kindness and caring and unselfishness and caring is inconsistent with your worldview”? It seems to be a standard tactic of Christian apologists to do that. (As if taunting ever won anyone over!)
Comment by: Ron
2Ir,
Who are you referring to when you say, “so many Christians?” Anyone here?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3So should Hemant become an Atheist pastor or not?
If he did what would he spend his time doing?
Who would welcome his leading or want to hear him speak to inspire them?
What was on his list of potential talks that a Christian couldn’t talk about?
Comment by: Darryl
4“Pastor Hemant (Atheist).”
Interesting little title, that. :)
I guess we should consider what a pastor does. The big one - speech writing (though we believers prefer to call it a ’sermon’). Yeah, Hemant could do that. In fact, some of his concepts could probably do with a hearing at my church. Though some in the crowd might miss hearing about God … others probably wouldn’t even notice.
Next up, office admin. Unless you’re a megachurch senior atheist pastor with several little apprentice pastors under you, then there’s lots of admin to do. Yep, Hemant could do that.
How about hospital visitation? Tough gig, but rewarding. He could at least sit with people he doesn’t know, hold their hand, show compassion. If they asked for prayer he’d probably need to bring in some back-up, but apart from that he’d probably do alright.
Then I guess there’s the church fundraising - yep. The social events - yes again (and in some churches he could even still have a beer!). And of course, he would need to grow the “McLaren beard” for that mature pastor look … or the “soul patch” for the postmodern pastor.
Comment by: Ir
5Ron, I’m thinking of what I’ve heard, in person and/or on the radio, and what I’ve read in books and what I’ve seen Christians write on the Internet. I’m thinking of what a pastor said to me last year when I went to talk to him about my own change in beliefs.
I haven’t seen anyone on here taunt atheists about their values, I’m pleased to say.
Here’s a quote from Ravi Zacharias illustrating the ‘a lack of belief in God should logically lead to a lack of good morals’ viewpoint:
The quote is from Shepherding A Soul-less culture
Anyway, when I wrote “so many Christians” I’m pleased to say that I wasn’t thinking of anything I’ve seen in the comments pages of Off The Map - as best I recall.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6Ir
tell us more about your concerns around this issue - help us move toward something better
Why do many Bible-believing Christians get so upset about what is not said in a message like the above that they seem unable to appreciate what is being said?
What is broken in our christian religious system that has helped foster this kind of fear and negativity?
Comment by: Ir
7So should Hemant become an Atheist pastor or not?
From what I’ve read, most atheists are pleased with Hemant. They think he’s conducted himself well and so the publicity he’s getting is positive for atheists.
Also, Hemant was already actively involved in a secular student group before the auction.
His enjoyment of being involved with atheist groups and the approval of other atheists seem like good reasons to continue to have an active role in atheist groups. I see no reason why he would not be a good atheist speaker; he writes articulately and he expressed himself articulately in the segments of Way of the Master and HNN that I listened to.
I see no reason, if a position such as ‘atheist pastor’ is created, that Hemant wouldn’t be a suitable candidate. He seems very able to get along with people, which I think is important.
If there is no full-time position like that available, I could envisage Hemant being a speaker to atheists and spokesperson for them in his ’spare time’, especially since he’s quickly gaining ‘name recognition’ from all the publicity.
As for what he’d talk about that Christians wouldn’t talk about - he might well speak on the reasons atheists reject the Christian faith. That’s something Christians don’t talk about because a) it could lead a person away from the Christian faith which they’d never want to do; also b) Christians suspect the information atheists base their rejection of the Christian faith on is unreliable and speculative.
Of the list of “Let’s” - Christians don’t talk about “let’s do what makes us happy” because Christians are supposed to do what pleases God; hopefully that will bring some joy into their lives but it’s a consequence, not the primary goal. Christians might also see “Let’s create a heaven on earth” as a wrong focus because earth can never be heaven; it depends how it is interpreted. “Let’s unite with our similarities instead of separating due to our differences” is a touchy one for Christians because of Bible verses such as “Do not be yoked with unbelievers”; and also because they don’t want to appear to be condoning the ‘false beliefs’ of another group, which could be what some people infer from them working with the other group.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8“because they don’t want to appear to be condoning the ‘false beliefs’ of another group, which could be what some people infer from them working with the other group”
How did Jesus work around this issue, he was in some very compromising situations?
Comment by: Ir
9Ir
A couple of things…
I think the theology itself fosters negativity. People are sinners who deserve hell and even after they become Christians they still sin all the time. They are constantly battling temptation. They are supposed to be like God but God is perfect so that’s never attainable; they are always failing to meet their goal, in other words. There’s supposed to be more than enough grace, but it’s hard to be fully honest with other Christians because my sins seem worse than theirs and what will they think of me? If other Christians can’t handle the truth about me and fail to extending grace to me, how can I be sure Jesus, who they supposedly represent, will?
Another problem I see is that dysfunctional behavior is often encouraged rather than confronted in the Christian religious system. Suppose I do get as far as noticing a leader is a control-freak and realizing that’s that’s not a good thing. Then what do I do? I’m supposed to be submissive, not divisive and not a gossip. How can I find out if anyone else shares my concern — even discreetly — without saying something that makes me seem like a gossip? How can I confront the person without getting in trouble for not being submissive enough?
Being a control-freak stems from having too much fear. Control-freaks don’t let God do what God is supposed to be doing; which should be seen as a very serious problem in the Christian religious system; but I haven’t observed that Christians are very good at addressing it.
If dysfunctional people are running the Christian religious system, no wonder it’s somewhat messed up. I think psychology addresses dysfunction much better than Christianity. But many Christians are so suspicious of psychology that unfortunately they will never benefit from all the helpful teachings/principles of it.
Hmmm…did I even answer the question? I hope I did to some extent.
Comment by: Ir
10He wasn’t afraid, so fear didn’t get in the way of him doing what was right.
The Bible says perfect love casts out fear.
The amount of fear in some Christians implies that they lack love.
Which in turn would explain a lot.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
11I agree
I have more questions but lets see who else wants to weigh on this
Comment by: Ron
12Ir,
You said a lot and it is very provocative. I don’t nessisarily agree with everything but you made some excelent points. I am trying very hard to avoid arguing because I still believe is does nothing. I do have a couple of questions though. Are you making blanket statements on Christianity or just going off of you experience? And (this is for everyone), is it fair for unbelievers to judge the Christian faith based on the brokeness of believers? In other words, a lot of things that believers do is unexcusable. But the faith is not about following other believers. A lot of people now are accepting Christ but leaving his leprous bride the Church behind.
The reason that I am a Christian and not an atheist or another variation of belief is because it is the only religion that deals with the problem of sin and brokeness. I see the problems with people and I don’t want to hide behind them and pretend to ignore them. There are other philosophical reasons but I won’t get into that.
Comment by: TXatheist
13I just saw you guys on Fox. Jim and Hemant, you’re both stand up guys in my book.
Respectfully,
TXatheist
Hemant,
I assure you that you would make a great UU minister.
Sincerely,
Mark
Comment by: TXatheist
14There was a post by a xian about praying for rain or an atheist saying we sure could use rain. What happened to it? It was here before Foxs News.
Comment by: Pam
15I would love to hear an outsiders views on Christianity. I found your article on AOL newsletters. I have been a faithful Christian all my life. I do NOT belong to a church because I feel that God is a Loving and forgiving GOD and most churches tend to judge its congregations and single people out within the congregation. God knows what is in our hearts. We need to live a life filled with UNCONDITIONAL love for everyone no matter their race or religion. It is not our place to judge people, it is God’s place. We are here to learn and grow and help others to do the same. I am looking for help so that I might learn so much more and help many others in their life quests. Thank you for listening.
Comment by: Esther
16I found that I am on a very similar ground as PAM. As a “recovering evangelical Christian”, I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting and thinking lately. I want to ask and see how others view my following observation:
One very fundamental belief of evangelical christians is - Being born again means that you can have eternal life after you die. If a person hears about the gospel and decided not to take it, he/she will perish (forever punished)
It is base on this belief that the evangelicals put so much effort to “save” other people.
It is like if you came across a fire and you see there’s a lady trap inside the fire. You would quickly go in and try to save the woman, right? Now, say the woman has some mental illness and resist your help. What would you do? Wouldn’t you FORCEFULLY grab her out because you believe that is the only way to get saved?
This is basically the rationalle and mentality of “evangelical christians”
It is also because of this deperate desire to “save” as many and as quickly as possible that they do a lot of “ridiculous” things and become more and more “weird”.
For me, I believe Jesus had set an example of living out the “gospel” by loving, healing, and helping people around him. And ultimately, Jesus even willing to sacrifice everything including his life.
I am thinking: can we, followers of JC, just live out a life like Jesus without “using” all kinds of “method” to try to convert non-believer?
Why does the “evangelicals” think that by JUST living a Christlike life is not enough?
Where is the problem?
Is there problem with their belief?
Or, it’s just the way they carry out their belief has problem?
What do you think?
Comment by: TXatheist
17Esther,
That mindset is the problem. We atheists are not mentally ill in the slightest and we are definitely not standing in a fire pit needing rescue. We are fine. I guarantee we are fine. From this day forward I ask you never associate the words ridiculous and weird with non-christians. You can live your life without trying to convert us.
Comment by: Esther
18No, TXatheist,
please do not be offensive.
I used the word “ridiculous” and “weird” to decribe the zealous Christians. Not the atheist at all.
I actually very much agree with the slogan of OTM : helping Christian to become normal.
As for the example of the fire, I was just reviewing the mindset of these Christians. Yes, obviously this kind of perspective can easily offend non-believer. (Da-)
But, I guess what I want to ask is that:
They think this way because they belief the situation is desperate.
So, is there not a fire at all?
Or, they should use other method to deal with the fire?
Is it clearer now?
Comment by: TXatheist
19I am not being defensive or offensive. I don’t think “zealous” christians are the problem. A simple idea that the rapture is coming is immoral in my opinion. The situation is not desperate imo. I’d say another billion years at least. There is no fire at all. The center of the earth is hot but we can’t actually get there:) Esther, it will be ok for quite awhile on earth.
Comment by: Denigma
20Wow…I have to wake up at 9am (sunday morning, ironically) to go do some work in a lab, and yet I’ve spent the last 4 hours immersed in this website. I’m not very much into blogs/blog-reading/blog-posting either. I can’t even remember the last time I posted on a public forum. That’s how captivating I found this website and these discussions to be. As someone who grew up with immigrant parents, an Asian male, an atheist, and a Buddhist, in a below-middle-class household, my experiences and outlook growing up (and still today) rarely if ever matched what I was led to believe was “normal.” Consequently, I grew up believing (and again, in many ways still do today) that I would always be a minority and foreigner in America. That’s why when I stumbled on this website, I was so blown away. Open, frank, meaningful discussion with such little hostility and close-mindedness between two groups that I had always viewed as day-and-night different. To me it’s almost like finding a KKK website that asks for the point of view of Black Panther members. There should be discussions like this on race, class, sexual orientation, etc. too. Anyways, religion is one topic that I’ve been fascinated with for awhile (despite…or likely because of the fact that I’m an atheist), and I look forward to reading more on this website and probably participating too. But labwork is still in 7 hours, so sleep for now.
Comment by: Ir
21[Ack - sorry - repost of #21 due to screwed up formatting]
Because, as the author points out in the following Bible passage, people cannot believe unless they hear and they cannot hear unless someone tells them:
Romans 10:12-15
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
If living a Christlike life means being kind to others and helping them in practical meaningful ways then I expect people who aren’t evangelicals would be delighted if evangelicals decided to just do that and to stop trying to convince them they should believe in Jesus.
Bible passages such as the following set forth the model that ‘preaching the gospel of God’ to people should be part of a bigger context in which those preaching are demonstrating their love for the people being preached to in practical meaningful ways:
1 Thess 2:7-9
As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.
Contemporary evangelicals often do the preaching part without the love demonstrated in practical meaningful ways part, which I don’t recall Biblical justification for.
But I also don’t recall Biblical justification for “just living Christlike lives”. Esther, you’d have to find that to convince evangelicals that “just living Christlike lives” is enough — and you’d have to find a way around Romans 10:12-15.
TXatheist, perhaps you know this already — the ‘fire’ metaphor is in the Bible: Jude verse 23 reads snatch others from the fire and save them.
For what it’s worth, I thought Esther was referring to some evangelical Christians as ‘weird’, not people who aren’t Christians, when she wrote: It is also because of this desperate desire to “save” as many and as quickly as possible that [evangelical Christians] do a lot of “ridiculous” things and become more and more “weird”.
In my opinion, the Bible does not justify desperation; Christians who are ‘desperate’ are trying to do part of God’s job for him. Even strong statements like ’snatch people from the fire’ don’t actually say “speed is all that counts — don’t worry how much people get hurt while you’re trying to snatch them out and save them”.
Comment by: Ir
22[still messed up but I won't repost - sorry]
Thanks. I agree that arguing is pointless but I think discussion and dialog is useful. To the extent you think I’m wrong I’d like to know about it, because maybe I am and the only way I’ll find out is if someone tells me.
I try not to make ‘blanket statements’ because I don’t think most things in life tend to fit under one blanket. One of the problems I have with Christianity is the black and white division of humanity into future eternal horror or eternal bliss. That seems too simplistic for a world in which human behavior is on a continuum with every shade and color represented.
Christianity has reasons for why believers are the way they are and it’s not fair not to give those reasons a fair hearing.
On the other hand, I think it’s absolutely fair to ask whether the Christian explanation is the best and most likely one. I think it’s entirely fair to compare Christian reasons with the reason other people have which is “there is no such thing as the Holy Spirit and that’s why Christians behave pretty much like everyone else (if one sets aside verbalizing stuff about Jesus)”.
Atheism isn’t a religion and there’s nothing I see about having an atheist worldview which prevents an honest assessment of the way people behave. Atheists know, for example, when they have treated others unfairly and there’s nothing about their worldview inciting them to deny it. If anything, I would think it is Christians who might be tempted to deny the reality of how they are behaving, since so much human behavior is labelled sin by the Christian religious system and sin is made such a big deal of in that system.
Ron, a very basic part of being human is the will to survive. Yet Christian theology in effect labels everything to do with ‘the will to survive’ as sinful. No wonder Christianity is so negative.
Comment by: Ir
23andrew, was your name fran yesterday? You are hurting your own cause by accusing other atheists who post here of being Christians pretending to be atheists. Way to go alienating not just Christians but also your fellow atheists.
Comment by: Ir
24Denigma wrote:
Hi Denigma! If you have time to come back and participate in due course, I’d be interested to know how your family responded to your rejection of Buddhism.
Comment by: Ron
25I have not said too much of what I believe as a Christian specifically. This is probably going to answer both Esther and Ir. Ir, if you are so negative on theology and Christianity I can understand but you need to read “The Ragamuffin Gospel” by Brennan Manning. There are some very conservative views on Christianity and some very liberal views on Christianity and who is to say which is correct? Personally, I like Frederick Buechner thoughts on theology. He says this, “Theology is the study of God and his ways. For all we know, dung beetles may study us and our ways and call it humanology. If so, we would probably be more touched and amused than irritated. One hopes that God feels likewise.”
Listen, I am very much an Evangelical Christian but that does not mean that I think they are right on everypoint. If there is anything that I have learned in this website it is to have a stronger distinction between the internal life and the external life. I consider myself an unrepentant moderate. That is not to say that I am a moderate that does not repent, rather, I am unrepentant about being moderate. Internally, I am very conservative but it is more a standard that I hold myself to than others to. Externally I am more liberal because I think that liberalism in theology goes overboard with grace.
A lot of Christians may want to crucify me for believing this but I do not think that God is going to punish everyone that is not a Christian and I can back that up Biblically too. Hebrews 11:6 says: “And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” In that definition, God is going to reward musslims, Buddists, Hindu, you name it. If an atheist is seeking God but has some hangups on some certain issues or just can’t quite grasp his mind around a few things then I would place him in that catagory too.
In the last book of the Old Testament (Malachi 1:11-12 specifically) and throughout that book God is telling Israel basically, look guys your worship is not always the best to me but somewhere on the earth at all times my name will be great. My point is this, How do we Christians know for a fact that our worship to God is the best? We don’t, but we are seeking him.
I do believe that everyone must eventually know Christ (John 14:6) that is why I am an evangelical but I don’t believe that our only opportunity to know Christ is going to be on this earth. I believe in a second chance contrary to popular Christian belief. If we can find one example of a second chance in scripture then we have a premis for our argument. That example comes from 1 Peter 18-22.
So then we turn to the 9th chapter of Genesis to read more. Without getting to much into the theology of God’s remorse (I’m sure that I will have to answer questions about that later) we close with this statement. 2 Peter 3:8-9, “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The lord is not slow about keeping his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
Comment by: Winn
26Ron,
Do you really think that quoting a few verses of Scripture out of the context of the story they appear in “backs” up what you are saying?
What would you think if someone took all your words and scrambled them around and then presented them thinking they were proving something?
Comment by: BryanC
27First I want to say that this website is a beautiful thing. The fact that so much has been exchanged without hostility says something wonderful both about the site and the people that have been writing.
Secondly, I want to say that the reason evangelism will never shake my athiest beliefs is because I am an athiest living the life that others seem to need the bible to lead. I exhibit nothing but caringness and affection for others, and I lead others to do the same. I am confident enough to turn the other cheek when I am wronged, and as a leader in many ways I do face a lot of jealousy, resentment, and criticism.
I guess I owe it all to my mother who raised me to be a kind, loving and tolerant person.
How can I even lend an ear to Evangelical Christians who say their God will condemn a person like me to hell for not accepting/following Him? Do evangelicals really believe I need to be saved? If anything I’m doing God’s work by teaching others to love and be tolerant. Tolerance…Something that those who do follow God have trouble with.
What are they saying about their God when they say people like me (or my mother) are going to hell to be punished for all eternity?
Comment by: Ron
28BryanC,
That is not what is being said here at all. I think if you read some of the archives you would have a better feel.
Comment by: Ir
29Perhaps I’ll take a look at The Ragamuffin Gospel.
I’ve read many books along the lines of “Jesus is really like this, not this” or “Being a Christian is really about this, not this” and I’ve liked much of what they’ve said.
I’ve also looked for things like second-chance-after-death, or ultimate universal salvation of everyone after death; I understand and I respect you for doing that rather than just accepting what some evangelicals say. Am I right that you don’t believe everyone will ultimately be saved, but you do believe people will get more chances than some evangelicals say?
Anyway, my problem was, I got thoroughly sick of trying to fix theology where it seemed broken to me and try to figure out what Christianity really should be. What people like BryanC wrote about just being a good person seems so refreshingly simple to me. Why can’t I just be a good person? Why do I have to have the complication of God and the Bible and trying to make the Bible say what I’d like it to say?
Comment by: Ir
30Hi Bryan,
Yes, it’s been great that it hasn’t turned hostile and that so many people posting here seem to be here to learn how to understand others better.
Is your mother an atheist too?
That’s a good question.
Many of them do, yes. Not because they overlook that you’re a loving, caring person, but because they believe everyone, no matter how loving and caring, needs to be saved. They believe everyone who isn’t 100% perfect - in other words, every human being - needs to be saved.
I would have thought so.
Sometimes, yes. Actually some Christians sneer at the word “tolerance” which I find very irritating.
They’re saying what they believe the Bible says, because they believe the Bible is true.
Comment by: Denigma
31Ir, I actually have not rejected Buddhism. I just don’t follow it religiously like my parents do. It’s sort of complicated to explain, but I still adhere to its philisophical and moral tenets (meditation, think healthy thoughts, perform healthy acts, speak healthy words, etc). It works for me, because there’s no Creator or higher being, though I had some issues to work out on how I approach the idea of karma and reincarnation. I guess you could say I consider myself pretty spiritual, but not at all religious.
In that regard at least, I wish Hemant the best of luck as an Atheist Pastor. Preach the will to do good, the strength to better oneself as a person, and the discipline to stop and listen to someone different. There are a hundred different ills in the world, even in this country, that could benefit from some extra attention.
Comment by: Ir
32Thanks for the reply, Denigma. Please feel free to ignore where I re-asked the question (under “Atheist Gives Up Sleep to Read Blog”)
Comment by: Ron
33On my comment on #25 I quoted 1 Peter and verse 18-22 but left out the chapter. It is chapter 3.
Ir, you asked:
Yes. With me it is all about choice and I do belive that some people can choose to deny God in every aspect and what I believe about God is that He won’t force them to love Him or it is not love.
What I believe about God is that if you are doing good then he will accept that as worship to him. For he is the embodyment of all that is good. 2 Chronicles 16:9 says, “For the eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His.”
I personally don’t believe in putting God in a box and limiting Him. I believe that God will meet whomever where they are at.
Comment by: Ir
34As I recall, Aslan says something to that effect in the Last Battle, C.S. Lewis.
But - you said everyone must know Christ and everyone gets a choice, so from that I conclude that such a person might later choose against God even though God accepted that person’s goodness as worship.
I like that. I don’t like anyone to be put in a box.
Ron, how do you think the seminary professors will react to your second-chance-after-death belief, when you go? Do you think it’s something you’ll be able to admit to without them getting on your case about you holding an ‘unBiblical belief’? I’m just curious.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
35Ir
What would we do around here without your wonderful and kind curiostity?
Comment by: Ron
36Ha this is good stuff!
Ir, sorry that I could not get to your question sooner. Texan made me do the dishes. One thing is for sure, she doesn’t believe in that no work on the sabbath ordeal. ;-)
Listen, you ask some great questions and so let me give it my best shot at answering them. You asked:
I am sure that they will react and yes I do think that I will be able to admit that, because I believe that I can back it up scripturally. Granted, I can do it better justice verbally than in script simply because I am a slow typest.
Let me explain because I think that with my poor e-communication skills a lot of what I try to say is lost. Earlier I made mention of 1 Peter 3:18-22 but I didn’t elaborate. Lets look at verses 18,19 and 20. “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit; in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison. Who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Here’s what I think is being said because I know that it is a lot. First we have Christ giving of his perfect life for the forgivness of our sins (I don’t think that you do but if you have questions about this, ask). Now it gets tricky, “He went (past tense) and made proclamation to the spirits now (present tense) in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah), so what does that mean? Did Christ go and give only those in the days of Noah a second chance? I do think that we see evidence of a second chance there and I think that it could be applied to those who die now too. Why would he only give a second chance to them? Plus in the days of Noah in Genesis 9, we see God creating a covenant relationship with mankind, this was before Israel. Specifically, verse 17. “And God said to Noah, ‘This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh that is on earth.’”
I think that what we really see here is that if Christ’s sacrifice didn’t apply to everyone it didn’t apply to anyone. Of course it applies to all but we are left with the choice and I believe that God is going to give us every opportunity we need, but we are still left with a choice. Like I said He meets us where we are at.
Comment by: skikid
37I am noticing that the term “Evangelical Christian” is getting thrown around a lot. I am not sure that I have a 100% clear idea of what it means. I am visiting home this weekend and asked my mom :) who replied “oh, holy rollers”. I didn’t ask for clairification there… it just didn’t seem like a good idea. In my circle of friends it would be more synonymous with “yay God!” meaning people who like to talk a lot about how into God they are. This world view works great as long as you don’t talk (blog?) with people on this site. So what does Evangelical mean to people who claim it here?
Comment by: Ron
38Skikid,
I am sure that you will get a lot of different answers from whomever you ask and I don’t know that I have seen a specific definition of an Evangelical. Personally I have always associated an Evangelical with someone who can’t see a Heaven without Christ. I too am interested to see what others have to say on this though. Great question.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
39A common definition of “evangelical” includes a) a confidence in the Bible as God’s Word to humankind, b) a belief in the importance of the individual’s trust or faith in Jesus Christ, as the essential ingredient necessary for salvation, and c) a belief that the call of God on Christians and the Church corporately is to live and communicate the Christian faith in a manner that attracts others to similarly trust in Christ.
There are certainly some who self-identify as evangelicals who would add to that definition, theologically, sociologically or culturally (or even, sadly, politically) and by doing so make the term more exclusive than that. There might be other self-identified evangelicals who would make the term mean less. This is simply a definition that a lot of scholars would put forward.
There are probably a lot of words that non-self-identifying evangelicals would throw in there as well!
But that definition would be a good place to begin a discussion.
Rick L in TX
Comment by: Rick L in TX
40Here is a link to an interesting essay in the Houston Chronicle.
I don’t believe in God.
I don’t believe Jesus Christ was the son of a God that I don’t believe in, nor do I believe Jesus rose from the dead to ascend to a heaven that I don’t believe exists.
Given these positions, this year I did the only thing that seemed sensible: I formally joined a Christian church.
Standing before the congregation of St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church in Austin, I affirmed…
I hope the link remains available beyond tonight.
Atheists, what do you think of what this writer has done?
Christians, how would you feel about this in your church?
Rick L in TX
Comment by: Ir
41But Sunday isn’t the Sab - oh, never mind; I won’t go there ;) Texan is blessed to have a husband who helps with the dishes :)
Well - I hope they will respect the independent Bible study you’ve done to come to your conclusions and not be disapproving on the basis that you ‘got the wrong answer’ because you don’t agree with them.
I haven’t had great experience sharing my own interpretations of Scripture with Bible teachers; they’ve often been dismissive and patronizing. I hope your experience will be better than mine.
I know what the teachers I’ve sat under would say: “1 Peter 3:18-22 is one of the hardest passages in the Bible to interpret and we should always interpret difficult passages in light of clearer ones.” With all due respect, you aren’t doing that, are you?
The verse I’ve seen used against second-chance-after-death is Hebrews 9:27 ” And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment” - I take it you don’t interpret it as contradicting your belief.
Anyway, thanks for taking time to elaborate on what you believe. I appreciate it.
Comment by: Ir
42Jim, thanks - I’m just glad I’m not a cat :)
Comment by: Ir
43Hi skikid,
The Christians (Jesus followers) who call themselves ‘evangelicals’ tend to be called ‘fundamentalists’ by people who aren’t Christians or who come from a different Christian tradition.
That’s my experience.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
44Rick knows how I, personally, feel about church membership — not a big fan, to put it mildly. So I think something like this is okay. Some people think the church is a museum; a place to collect plaster saints. I’m inclined to think the church is only beginning to get real when it is thought of as a hospital; a place for people who know, or maybe do not yet even fully recognize, that they are sick.
Of course, the problem often may be that it is the *church* that doesn’t really understand that it is a hospital. And a hospital that thinks it is a museum is going to be more likely to be giving tours than doing any real healing.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Jim Henderson
45Like all categories “Evangelicals” can be taken in a couple of ways.
Formally - The way Rick L described
Informally - people who would admit to taking the bible pretty seriously, go to church at least a couple of times a month, try to remember to pray and give some money to church and feel a certain kind of responsibitlity to “share the story (aka “good news”) of Jesus (taken from the bible) with their non believing friends or enemies:-)and essentially believe (as long as no one challenges them) that Jesus is God and there is no other god.
One more thing “I think” truly identifies the current evangelicalism we are experiencing is that evangelicals put beliefs above actions and that is why so much of the critique we(yes I am mostly one myself although many evangelicals (or atheists I guess) wouldn’t like me making that claim)receive from our atheist/non believing colleagues on this blog and other places is greatly deserved and ought to be welcomed so we can begin to become known as followers of Jesus rather than evangelical religionists
Comment by: Ir
46Jim, I assume this is because [most] evangelicals believe that belief and belief alone will guarantee a person entrance into heaven; actions, while pleasing to God, can never do that, in their view.
Doesn’t this view that belief can do what actions never can, mean that belief is always going to be more important to evangelicals than actions?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
47yes - unless we can tip it the other way
Comment by: Ir
48Apropos of nothing perhaps - what really bothers me is those Christians who seem sure about everything. They’re sure they’re going to heaven; they’re sure they know what every verse of the Bible means (and they’re also generally sure what advice I need to hear) I’m not saying there are any of those here but I definitely have run into a number of them on the Internet. They seem so…arrogant. And presumptuous.
I’d prefer to be around a Christian/Jesus follower who wasn’t sure about anything, who was just doing their best and hoping it would be good enough for God.
Or an atheist who has values and principles and is does his/her best to live them out; who, if he/she is certain about some things, doesn’t claim to have certainty about me and my life.
Comment by: Ron
49Ir,
HaHaHa! You said:
No. That is not what I am doing. What is funny is that as I was writing my last e-mail, I thought about the Hebrews verse that you brought up and then I thought, Nah, I’m not going there. So I kind of feel busted a little bit. :-)
I will say this, Second chance after death is not a conviction that I would die for but I do have a heart for people. I want more than anything to help make a difference in peoples lives. My heart bleeds for this broken world and I don’t want to judge because I don’t think that is my place. I have to watch my self very carefully and my intentions here. I want to aid the world in being less broken and I have to be very careful that I don’t interpret the beliefs of others as broken just because they are different than mine. I am considering nodding out of the blogs so that I don’t do what would break my heart and that is contribute to pushing others farther away.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
50RE: #45-46
I’ve refered to a comparative religions series I just finishied. The speakers on Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all said, in different ways, that the essential difference between Christianity and the other two major monotheistic religions was that by their very nature Judaism and Islam are legalistically oriented religions: Do this, Eschew that, and you will be an observant Jew or Muslim. But Christianity is much more complex because instead of getting lists of laws, we get lists of principles. And we have to work out the ethics of which issues take priority. Much more complex. And much more oriented toward proper belief.
Of course, beliefs have their acid test in the sort of actions they produce. But there is an underlying reason for this belief-oriented basis.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Florence
51With apologies to Jim, who I’m not, to this last question I rush to say I hope to heaven not! But maybe belief is (say) one prong of the fork?
And there’s something else important about that. The term belief as evangelicals use it can be taken in a couple of ways: belief as in believing certain propositions and belief as in trusting and resting on/in God the Father through Jesus our Lord. I take it that something on the order of the latter meaning of belief is what the NT really calls for. Unfortunately, probably all sections of the church (not just the evangelical) have tended to overemphasize the number of propositions we are called to believe!! But one can start with just trusting God and leaning on Jesus to get you there. I think Jesus was serious when He said the Holy Spirit would lead us into (more; I hardly think we’ve attained all) truth; and you’ll note that Paul says several different times things like “if you don’t get this, the Lord will reveal it to you.” :)
And one of the most important things that Jesus has to say is we are supposed to love one another; he even says to love one another as He loved/loves us. (How we do that, except by the power of God, I have absolutely no idea.) But if love is that high on Jesus’ list (and the NT repeats the point virtually everywhere), actions are VERY important….
My husband adds, speaking of a quote that recently got his attention on the general subject: “works are not for salvation, but salvation is for works.”
Blogging can get habit-forming, can’t it???
Blessings…………. (P.S., Jim, how are YOU going to respond to this?)
Comment by: Florence
52On Ron’s subject, no one has quoted this passage from Romans 2:
You can, of course, interpret that passage a couple different ways. But considering the millions and zillions of people who actually never heard a verbal proclamation of the gospel, and the fact God cares for THEM TOO, I think you can take scriptures like this and the ones Ron quotes as a sign God will be truly just and merciful.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
53Florence,
You nailed a point that I think is so critical. If you know the story, Jesus has just finished washing the feet of the disciples before dinner. John picks up the story….
John 13
12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
Now at this point, I wish Jesus had said, “17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed.”
But that is not what He said. He said, “17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
And, sadly, all too many people in the church do not take that last clause seriously enough…myself included.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Florence
54Tom, a pregnant point, one that has scared me at times….
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
55One other thought, then I must get back to catching up on chores. #48, Ir, you said, “what really bothers me is those Christians who seem sure about everything.” I wonder if what you are actually seeing there isn’t a human characteristic rather than a specifically Christian characteristic. It is most abundantly apparent in teenagers. They are certain of everything…because they don’t know enough to understand what they don’t know.
Favorite quote on topic: Education is the process of moving from a state of unconscious to conscious ignorance.
For good or ill, I think most Christians are “won” on the basis of emotion or one form or another. The church generally does a poor job of encouraging people to become as strongly committed intellectually as they are emotionally. (Probably because they know the intellectual work is a harder job than most will want to burden themselves with. :-( )
So most Christians remain intellectual adolescents with the comparable surity and confidence. ;-)
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Ir
56Hi Ron,
So I busted you, huh? :)
If it’s any consolation, I think the Hebrews verse is a rather weak rebuttal to second-chance-after-death. I just mentioned it because that’s how I’d heard it used. I’ve also heard it used to show the Bible doesn’t teach reincarnation; which I think can more reasonably be deduced from it than no second-chance-after-death.
You have a great heart, Ron.
Whoa…how did you get there? If you’re spending too much time here, then that’s a good reason to step back. However, may I suggest the reason you gave isn’t - please bear with me:
First, because of God - you’ve said God gives everyone a fair chance. God is not going to let you do anything that takes anyone’s chance away,is He, Ron? Do you really think you can mess up God’s plans to give everyone a fair chance, Ron? :)
Second, because of your future ministry plans. Ron, everything you learn about people here you can take into ministry with you. People react here essentially like they do in real life. This place can be a valuable learning experience; whatever you learn here you won’t have to learn at the beginning of your ministry which I expect will have enough challenges anyway ;)
Third, because of other people - Ron, what do you think pushes people away? It’s not the comment that offends - which it’s hard for any of us to avoid at one time or other, if we’re trying to talk about serious issues. It’s our response when someone shows us they are offended. If our response is not to care that they’re offended, or to say “the cross does offend”, or whatever - that’s when we start alienating people because we imply we don’t really care about them. But you haven’t done that anywhere I’ve seen here, Ron. If it seems that anyone has taken offense you’ve apologized. You’ve shown that you care whenever your caring could have been questioned.
So, Ron…see you here later? :)
Comment by: Ron
57Ir,
As always you make some good points. I just have to keep myself in check.
If you want we can discuss predestination or free will. :-)
I would still be reading and learning.
This is where you got me. Far be it from me to deny others my precious perspective…Just kidding. In all seriousness, if you want me to keep blogging, I will…with caution.
Thanks Ir, I am my greatest critic, sometimes we just need to hear what you told me. How about that, you are ministering to me. ;-)
Comment by: skikid
58Ron
For what its worth I really enjoy reading your posts :)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
59Florence
When I say “beliefs” I don’t mean to say I don’t have any or that they in and of themself are bad. What I mean to say is that “in my opinion”
Evangelicals “worship” their belief system over and above their actions.
How do I know? Sit with any “bible believing Christian” for more than 30 seconds and the questions will start about “which church do you attend or who is your pastor”> these (imho) are attempts to uncover your belief system to see if we can talk with each other. They help me “slot” you.
Non Christians know that we do that to them but they may not know we do it to each other.
What we don’t worry about is what we are doing or how we are serving or who we are loving.
At Off The Map we refer to this “worship of right beliefs” as Beliefism and feel that it is at the center of the religion currently known as Christianity (as well as ALL religions)
Comment by: Ir
60Jim (and/or anyone else), why do you think so many humans have such an intense need (evidently) to ’slot’ other human beings?
(To be fair, it’s not just Bible-believing Christians who try to “slot” people. Although there may be aspects of the Christian religious system which encourage “slotting” rather than discouraging it)
Oh, and Jim, do you get ’slotted’ in the not a real Christian slot sometimes?
Comment by: Ir
61Jim (and/or anyone else), why do you think so many humans have such an intense need (evidently) to ’slot’ other human beings?
(To be fair, it’s not just Bible-believing Christians who try to “slot” people. Although there may be aspects of the Christian religious system which encourage “slotting” rather than discouraging it)
Oh, and Jim, do you get ’slotted’ in the not a real Christian slot sometimes because of your objections to ‘beliefism’? Do other Christians misunderstand and criticize you sometimes for what OTM does?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
62Yes
Comment by: skikid
63I think ’slotting’ people in some ways makes it easier to get through the day. It reduces the risk, mostly emotionally (imo). If I can slot you as ‘Evangelical’ (in this case but there are tons of other examples) then I can excuse myself from getting to know you b/c I assume that you won’t accept me. The loss to me is a potentially fruitful friendship/learning experience. But I have at least protected myself.
Comment by: KSG
64With sincere apologies, early in my hanging out on this blog, I too almost “slotted” Jim in the “not-a-real-Xian” catagory. Not because he hadn’t confessed Christ, but some of his dialogue appeared odd (but printed words have no tone), until I took some time to read more (patience). So Jim, I’m sorry. Please forgive me.
Slotting others feeds our ego - “they believe that!?! snicker, snicker” - sadly the vast majority of Xiandom does this and is encouraged to do this from the pulpit (not directly, but very much implied).
Jim, I like what you said “One more thing “I think” truly identifies the current evangelicalism we are experiencing is that evangelicals put beliefs above actions “
And Tom said, “beliefs have their acid test in the sort of actions they produce.”
I agree. Well put. Isn’t this what James is saying in James 1:22-2:26?
Faith without corresponding action isn’t faith.
As a (Word of Faith) evangelical, I am challenged when I see the emphasis placed upon the words you speak but I don’t see many corresponding actions? Where’s the fruit? Many in my “camp” like to draw from the Book of Acts in reference to signs, wonders, and miracles, but they dismiss Acts 4:32-37 as not being for our day. My reply is simply that if you want to throw out Acts 4, then you better through the rest of Acts out as well.
Comment by: Ir
65Jim, it sounds like you’ve heard from those Christians who measure God’s approval by how angry people who aren’t Christians get with them. You do seem to lack proficiency in making atheists angry ;)
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
66Taking the subject realllly far afield. The “slotting” thing. I think it may be more physiological than merely emotionally comfortable. I recall reading a story of a man who had a stroke and the result after his recovery was that he couldn’t name things that were round — baseball, grapefruit, so on. He knew what they were and he knew what they were for, but he couldn’t name them.
Doctors reasoned that this was a clue to our mental filing structure. In this case things that are round all get slotted into a certain categorical place. (Obviously it isn’t THAT simple, but it suggests a deeper basis.) As people who are, from a Christian perspective, burdened with a sinful bent, we will readily use our inherent “slotting” tendency for bad ends — bias, discrimination, etc.
Point is, it is the human dilemma, not a Christian dilemma.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Florence
67Re “slotting,” I believe the main (if not only) reason I ask about somebody else’s denomination, etc., is as an aid to figuring out how far and where I can go with them in casual conversation. I’m not immune from slotting, though I’m trying to learn to stop it, but my greater problem is in knowing how to conduct casual conversation. I don’t find it that easy to discuss, or perhaps I should say introduce a discussion of, “important” stuff with people in a casual situation. I’d like to! (On line it’s easier, by the way!) :)
I like the word “beliefism.” It pretty well describes the tendency to want to “control” others (and maybe ourselves too, at times). Make people “kosher” beliefwise. Pharisaism. Makes one sad.
I do find it interesting to notice that God does not seem to worry about purity of doctrine nearly as much as we do. :)
Comment by: Florence
68I actually think we are trying to change this. The focus of a lot of the Lord’s nudges seems to me to be to judge less, love more, recognize one’s own self-centeredness, bless and forgive other people who are still caught in theirs, and realize that He, not we, is the one who has the proper perspective! We don’t realize how diverse we are sometimes (and how much God loves us ALL)!
Comment by: Esther
69A special appreciation to Ir & Ron.
Although I’m not sure if you will come back here to read?
I’m Esther who has posted on #16.
I have gone on a short vacation trip since it’s spring break up here in Canada.
I yearned to read any response after a couple of days since I posted it. Yet, I’ve already forgotten which blog I have posted on!
I searched back & forth and thank God I finnally found it back!
*Jim, this diablog thing is getting a little out of hand, isn’t it :-)
Anyhow, I only am able to catch up to comment #36. Your responses (Ir & Ron) were so fasinating that it was like reading a book.
Hey, Jim, maybe you’ve already thought of publishing a book by gathering and hi-lighting contents of this diablog?
I just love reading the responses. I’ve learnt so much! I’ll keep reading. I just want to say thanks first.
Comment by: Ron
70Esther,
Even though it is almost 11:00 p.m. here in Texas, you just made my day with you kink words and I went fishing today and had a great day to begin with. Thank you.
Comment by: Ron
71Kind words. It should say kind words not kink. I’m going to bed.
Comment by: Esther
72We (All the blogers here) have become some kind of friends now, don’t you agree?
I actually am agreeing on many thoughts of you two’s - Ir & Ron.
If one day Ron, you become a minister of a Church, I’d like to attend. :-)
What about you, Ir?
Comment by: Esther
73The church generally does a poor job of encouraging people to become as strongly committed intellectually as they are emotionally. (Probably because they know the intellectual work is a harder job than most will want to burden themselves with. )
So most Christians remain intellectual adolescents with the comparable surity and confidence.
Great thought! Tom in Sacramento,I agree.
Truly hope that this will change somehow….
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
74Florence, re #67, I love to talk about “important” issues with people. (I’ll be that comes as a big shock. ;-) ) And I find that most people do; there is certainly no shortage superficial chit-chat. The main thing is that people want to know that they will be “safe” and “handled with care” before they are willing to be vulnerable.
So the first step is simply to be a kind and loving person who really takes a sincere interest in other people. And, if you’re a Christian, isn’t that the yardstick that Jesus offered to the world by which to measure His followers?
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Ir
75Hi Esther,
(Yes, I’m still reading!) I’m glad you came back to see my response to you because I did put quite a bit of thought into it.
As to your question - I’m not sure I could handle church right now unless it was like the church in Texas that that atheist just joined.
On the other hand, I’d be interested to meet Ron (or anyone else I’ve posted to here) and to hear how he preached - maybe I could even manage to do that in person, at a service at his church. (And if I commented to him on the sermon I’d be full of grace and tact - of course! :))
Comment by: Ir
76Hey, I have a question for Bible-believing Christians:
Have Bible translators ever ’slotted’ anyone?
Take a look at Genesis 25:27:
The boys grew up, and Esau became a skillful hunter, a man of the open country, while Jacob was a quiet man, staying among the tents.
That’s the NIV. Some others:
Jacob was a mild man - NKJV
Jacob was a peaceful man - NASB
Jacob [was] a plain man - KJV
Ok, let’s see where else the exact same adjective is used.
In the NIV:
Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
In other versions:
that man was blameless and upright - NKJV
that man was blameless, upright,
that man was perfect and upright - KJS
This is what a King James Concordance says about that adjective:
It appears 13 times and is translated as follows:
perfect 9 times
undefiled 2 times
plain 1 time
upright 1 time
Then it gives these meanings of the adjective:
1) perfect, complete
1a) complete, perfect
1a1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
1b) sound, wholesome
1b1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person
1c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity
1c1) one who is morally and ethically pure
AV - perfect 9, undefiled 2, plain 1, upright 1; 13
1) perfect, complete
1a) complete, perfect
1a1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
1b) sound, wholesome
1b1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person
1c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity
1c1) one who is morally and ethically pure
Am I the only person who finds that meaning 1b1)doesn’t seem to fit?
Basically, for some reason - and I have no idea what it can be except ’slotting’? - Bible translators of all the English versions I’ve looked at, were happy to translate this adjective as ‘blameless, pure, perfect’ everywhere in the OT except when it came to Jacob.
Why? Didn’t it fit with how they had ’slotted’ him?
Comment by: Ron
77Esther,
Your kindness extends beyond mere politness. I am humbled and flattered that you have grown to hold me in such a high esteem. Like Ir, I too would love to meet you and all who post here. I look forward to many more noble conversations with an open heart.
Comment by: Florence
78Tom, sounds like you thought all I needed was some good advice! I appreciate your thoughts, but they really don’t help me the way you wanted them to. And I hope you don’t mind if I blog for a moment on the subject of our tendency to give advice in response to the revelation of a personal weakness. :) Isn’t that part of what can make honesty unsafe in certain situations, including specifically in church? We have to be honest, don’t we, to progress? Can we be honest without provoking the advice response?
(Of course, I realize that in a very real sense I’m giving advice too! Tit for tat! How inescapable is it!!!!????!!!!)
Blessings…..
Comment by: Stephan
79Ir, in #76, I would need to know more to answer your question. Did you go back to the Hebrew and find the same adjective? Are there different Hebrew texts that might use a different phrase there?
Even in English words can have different meanings, depending on their context, so even if the same word in used in Hebrew it could be accurate.
Comment by: Ron S
80I am a middle aged evangelical pastor. This site was brought to my attention by our web master. I have spent the better part of an hour reading the posts and their response.
My problem???
I enjoyed what I read and feel like the time was not a waste.
Blessings on each of you and Jim, thanks for putting together such a forum.
Comment by: Ir
81My concordance indicates it’s the same Hebrew word.
I don’t think there is a textual variant there; if there is it’s not in any footnotes in any Bible I have. Those are usually mentioned in the footnotes.
Yes, but the meanings are usually related. I don’t see how ‘mild’ is related to ‘blameless/pure’. And if the word has a variety of meanings one usually sees that variety reflected in a balanced way in the Bible, rather than all uses of the word except one being very similar and that one being quite different.
Comment by: Ir
82Hi Florence,
I agree that honesty is progress. But these days I’m careful who I’m honest with. I don’t bare my soul to everyone.
Comment by: Esther
83Hey, Ir, nice to hear fr you.
I’ve probably missed something when you mentioned:
As to your question - I’m not sure I could handle church right now unless it was like the church in Texas that that atheist just joined.
What church in Texas you meant there? I’d like to know. Maybe you can refer me back to the blog entry number. Thanks.
I am very far away from Texas, though. (I am in BC, Canada) Although my father once went to Houston, Texas in 1974 to help set-up a Chinese church there. (My father is a Christian Pastor) Then my older sister had studied music at U of Houston on 1978.
I feel very interested and attached to reading your (both you and Ron’s esp., and Jim’s of course) blogs is because you guys know the Bible in a very deep sense. I’m not boasting but it’s a fact that my knowledge of the Bible is not any less than you as well. (I’m a PK man)
Therefore, it’s very intrigueing that with such a “bible knowing background” and experience with church and stuff, we actually have come up with this very different view than the “evangelical churches” is holding now.
I am very exciting for I can’t find these “like-minded” followers of Christ around me but I found them here!
When I’m small, we have “pen-pal”.
Now, we have “blog-pal”.
As Brian McLaren said,
“We have a new world” Indeed!
I’d prefer to be around a Christian/Jesus follower who wasn’t sure about anything, who was just doing their best and hoping it would be good enough for God.
Amen!
Comment by: Ir
84Hi Esther,
Here’s a link to the blog entry about the church in Texas an atheist just joined: Atheist becomes a Christian…sort of
Re: knowledge - I expect you know what the Bible says - “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up”.
Comment by: Florence
85My experience in the evangelical and associated branches of the church is that the powers that be really don’t want the people “committed intellectually.” They’re too scared of people coming up with the “wrong” conclusions on this or that.
I have spent a lot of years trying not to rock the boat with some of my odd ideas. :) It gets old….. Actually, it’s not only that I don’t want to rock the boat (or get shot for doing it). I really don’t want to upset people’s simple faith. And the mind isn’t king in Christianity. God loves and works through the least of these. Simple faith is tremendously beautiful, as are the people who have it. Why do you think the tendency has been for for more outright miracles to occur in more primitive societies?
So I’ve shot this wad. Any takers?
Comment by: Esther
86Ir,
Thanks for the link.
Wow, I then had spent hours reading all the 154? comments on that blog :-) Yet, very thought provoking, though.
During one of your responses to Ron, you said,
I like being in community and if there is a community which is truly accepting of all viewpoints then I might be interested. But I am wary, because I know that people who are closer to where I am spiritually often carry a lot of anti-evangelical Christianity/Christian baggage and I don’t want to go there. Even if I do sound rather negative about evangelical Christianity/Christians sometimes. One reason I kept going to church is that being with evangelicals kept my view balanced because by being around them I’m reminded that they are often wonderful people with wonderful hearts, even if I don’t share their beliefs any more. I was worried that if I left I might only remember what bugs me about them and I didn’t want that to happen to me
Can you please elaborate more on it to me, Ir?
(I consider myself being a…yes, kinda bitter, anti-evangelical christian but more towards the humanistic new kind of X’ian. I want to know why you don’t want to near “us”) :-)
I’m also interested in what “area” about God that you do not believe in right now after being emmerged in Christian Church for such a period of time and knowing so much about the Bible?
I’m just curious.
Thanks.
Comment by: Esther
87Ir,
Oh, mine. You may be surprised but it’s true! I found myself repeatedly reading some of the comments (esp. yours) over & over again.
I totally agree with your thought on #9. They are very well said, too.
But I still want to know what you don’t believe about God?
Comment by: Ir
88Hi Esther,
Thanks for the compliments :)
I’d be happy to be spend time with you socially. It’s the corporate focus on God that I’d rather avoid, not the people. The only people I would try to avoid are the ones whose response to me living my life without God makes talking with them a frustrating painful exercise. They do this by showing no interest in why I want to live my life without God, which I find disrespectful. Why should I listen to them if they have no interest in listening to me?
There are also those people who seem so concerned when I talk about it that I can’t bear talking about it with them. I don’t avoid them but I do avoid the topic with them.
I don’t think about God or relate to God in a personal way; God is not a part of my personal life.
Let’s see - ok, this is what I don’t believe. I don’t believe there is a way of resolving whose understanding of God is correct. I’ve observed that even among a group of people with the same basic beliefs, everyone has a slightly different view of God. The person in favor of ‘tough love’ sees God as a God of ‘tough love’. The person who lobbies against gay marriage has God’s justice and righteousness more in mind than Jesus touching a leper. The person who has trouble with such activism conversely is more focused on Jesus touching lepers than God the Righteous Judge. I can’t judge out who is right about God and I can’t know a person unless I can determine who they are with some sort of clarity. I definitely can’t trust someone I can’t figure out how to know. I can’t trust someone who is said to be all-powerful yet couldn’t stop billions of people going to hell.
The Bible - I came to think the reason Christians disagree is that it probably does contradict itself. I thought about how differently we view the world from the Bible authors and am unable to be confident that what they write translates into today’s world in the literal way evangelicals translate it into today. I came to think the Bible is a terribly convoluted way to communicate an important message with clarity and being in Bible studies actually confirmed this view in me as studied some of the prophetic passages and was ‘told’ what they mean about the end times.
I expect my other posts give other details about what I have problems with and why.
I like getting to know people but getting to know God seems impossible, so - I quit trying in favor of doing things which were demonstrably real and worthwhile to me.
Being bitter is something I want to avoid. I recommend doing whatever you find helps you not to be bitter. (I find it’s essential to forgive and to remember that if I’ve been hurt by people, they didn’t do it on purpose) Bitterness distorts my perspective and I don’t want a distorted perspective.
Comment by: Ir
89That may be true of some Christian leaders, but I can’t honestly say all those I have any familiarity with have that fear. Some of them want people to study the Bible on their own so they get to know it better. Some are confident enough that God will ‘keep his own’ that they aren’t worried.
What I do think is that on the whole they would discourage exploration of what they consider ‘anti-Christian’ viewpoints, because it can discourage and confuse even if it doesn’t lead someone completely away from the faith.
I kind of understand this if I think about someone facing a challenge like a hard exam. It would not be good, in the run-up to the exam, to listen to someone saying “You’re going to fail; you’re not good enough; you haven’t studied enough”. It could distract the person and erode the confidence and hope that enable a person to go into a challenging situation and do their very best.
In a similar way, a Christian needs to be able to emotionally commit to what they believe. If they are reading ‘this is false’ it makes that hard.
It sure does!!
A
Likewise. I don’t want to take something from people which is valuable to them.
I agree; I can also imagine people disagreeing and saying that seeing a ‘deluded’ person is not a beautiful thing because they hate to see anyone deceived. I could respect that viewpoint also.
A cynical response would be: because they are more open to believing in miracles so they don’t question them and also, they don’t analyze things the way ‘less primitive’ societies do so they don’t find out that there is in fact a non-miraculous explanation for them.
More theistic explanations I have heard are: God does miracles where there is little knowledge of him to authenticate the witness of missionaries. Acts 2:22 says “Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs”. Societies with more knowledge don’t need those miracles, so the argument goes. Also, there’s the argument that God does miracles for people who have simple faith. That seems to go along with Jesus saying such things as (Matt 21:21-22) “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, `Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
Florence, you’re very thoughtful and I enjoy reading your thoughts. I’m sorry that the Christian community is not more accepting of its members who find themselves wondering in ways that ‘rock the boat’. It’s a shame many Christians are so worried the boat will tip over. I can’t help thinking they don’t have a very big God if he can’t even keep his own boat upright!
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
90Ir wrote “I can’t help thinking they don’t have a very big God if he can’t even keep his own boat upright!”
EXACTLY! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said that (though not as eloquently) to my fellow believers who think they can control God or put Him in their theological box. In fact, it’s one of the reasons that I enjoy dialog like this. Because if God is real, and He wants you to know Him, then it’s His job to make you aware of Him. It’s just, imho, our job to be open-minded to who He MIGHT be.
Comment by: Kaori
91Hi, Ir - So I read your question #76 as you suggested.
Yeah, that was interesting.
As I said somewhere else, I am no scholar, I just love to read the bible, and when I get curious, I go into the original word. But I have never studied Hebrew or Greek, below is only what I leaned from various sources. No teacher or anything…
The word you mention is tam, Strong’s (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance) number 08535.
Definition:
a) complete, perfect
1.one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
b) sound, wholesome
1.an ordinary, quiet sort of person
c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity
one who is morally and ethically pure
This word, as you said is translated 13 times as
perfect (9), undefiled (2), plain (1), upright (13)
This is the only passage that the word is translated as plain.
Here’s the explanation on this verse in “John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible”:
Esau was an hunter - And a man that knew how to live by his wits, for he was a cunning hunter. A man of the field - All for the game, and never so well but as when he was in pursuit of it. And Jacob was a plain man - An honest man, that dealt fairly. And dwelt in tents - Either,
As a shepherd, loving that safe and silent employment of keeping sheep, to which also he bred up his children, Genesis 46:34. Or,
As a student, he frequented the tents of Melchizedek or Heber, as some understand it, to be taught by them divine things.
I don’t know what implication the word “plain” had, at the time KJV was compiled, and I have no idea why they used the word “plain” to translate this word.
The point of this verse perhaps is to contrast the nature of Esau and Jacob? And thus the word plain was derived from his characteristics that are described elsewhere in the bible?
Mmmm - Jacob was the one who grabbed his brother’s heel at birth, and he was the one pretended to get his dad’s blessing when it was supposed to go to Esau, he was the one who “wrestle” with God later…plain, mild…mmmm…and he was pretty patient when it came to romance…
You know, I don’t know if “slotting” was done.
I don’t know what God wants to tell me at this moment in studying this…
Maybe I ought to look up other passages this word is used and see what stands out…maybe that’s where I find what I need to learn at this moment…
But maybe for you, there might be something else that is being communicated, if you are kind of stuck with this word.
I am glad that I have the tools (internet) to search all this, and I go “how did ancient people dealt with stuff like this?” and I go “well, God always had ways to communicate to people, this is just one of them…” - It’s too early in the morning my head’s not working too well and I have to go to work…
It was fun still. Thanks, Ir.
If you want someone better to answer your question, I heard that
Ravi Zacharias’ ministry answer questions real well.
http://www.rzim.org/faqs/contact.php?id=7
I use
http://www.crosswalk.com
Bible Study Tool (be sure to check [Include Study Tools] check box.
and
http://www.blueletterbible.org
I look up verses, click concordance and look up the word.
Comment by: Florence
92Wow….
Ir, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate knowing more about how you feel and think about things. You are a very thoughtful woman. You make it a point to try to forgive and release others and keep away from being bitter. I really can’t think of attitudes/characteristics I think are more important. There’s a part of me that wants to whisper or shout or simply find a way to say, in response to your comments about God, something on the order of “God is real and He is knowable and He is good,” but I do know that wouldn’t solve anything or “help” you at all! I tremendously respect where you are and am grateful for your so many perceptive and thoughtful and kind comments.
I myself would find life, everyday life, basically awful without a sense of God’s presence and without His promises of good to come. To put things in the most basic way, Jesus is the one who has enabled that to happen for me. It also hasn’t happened without a lot of very painful times. But I don’t want to belabor this (and don’t have time to; I’ve got to basically stop right now and get ready for work!!!).
I hope you don’t find this response out of order.
Comment by: Ir
93Not at all - I loved it, Florence! I love your honesty and openness. And, wow - you are super-respectful.
My biggest fear when I started to doubt was that life would be awful without God, so I understand where you’re coming from. It hasn’t turned out to be awful, in fact :)
Comment by: Florence
94Ir…. I believe you; it was not awful for you to start to “just live.” You sound like there is a lot of sunshine in your life. I am glad for that sunshine.
I cannot feature ever wanting OR being able to live without the Lord. (Sometimes church, at least as a lot of it is structured, is another matter!) :) I have a different history than you. And a different present.
But I sympathize with you. I have had my share of questions. I still do have questions. I guess you’ve seen one or two of them in these comments…. That’s not all! :) I agree with you, for instance, that the Bible contains certain internal contradictions. But I still think it is kind of like “baptized” in (immersed in! pregnant with!) the Holy Spirit. Kind of like we are meant to be….
I have been staying up late the last few nights; I need to be more conservative tonight. Blessings. May your state of “relax” increase and may your eyes be bright with the good that you experience, that you see.
Comment by: Esther
95Ir,
Florence wrote,
“Ir, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate knowing more about how you feel and think about things. You are a very thoughtful woman.”
Are you a woman as Florence put it?
I have no idea of everyone’s gender but I have a feeling that you are a guy :-)
I guess my feeling came from your great analytical skill. Yes, we all enjoy your sharing.
Ir, I share all your thinking and standpoint towards “the church” and how they practise their “faith”.
But, I still want to understand more of how you become a person that doesn’t “think of god in a personal way.”
How do you see the relationship between God and men? Do you think God loves and cares for mankind?
How do you view prayers?
I guess I’m most curious of how you have come to this point after gone through your past.
My 2 teenage boys are waiting to have our weekly family worship, so I have to go.
I’ll share with you more of my past and where I stand now later.
Comment by: Esther
96I just finished reading all 200? entries with the other most new post.
And now I know when and why you have reviewed your real gender, Ir.
You fooled us all! (Almost)
Comment by: Ir
97Hi again Florence,
I had to live life without God to find out for sure it wasn’t awful, so I wouldn’t expect you to know that, if you haven’t done it. And I wouldn’t expect you to try it; I wouldn’t have, except that my doubts gave me no choice.
Maybe the things we can’t reconcile are supposed to help us not too overly certain (I expect you’ll see Jim Henderson’s new blog entry on certainty today). Yet some people are so uncomfortable with uncertainty that they compromise reality and try to deny some things are hard to reconcile in Scripture rather than be uncertain. Others seem to rest in “We’re not God; that’s why we don’t understand” - which I consider a dangerous argument because it doesn’t challenge Christians to go right up to the edge of their understanding. Which is where I’d like to see them go.
May peace and all that is best be yours also :)
Comment by: Ir
98Hi Esther,
I was intrigued that stating my disagreement with the way some Christians use the Bible to limit the role of women didn’t cause anyone to guess I was female. I suppose they just assumed I was a very empathetic guy :)
Actually, since we’re on the topic of gender, I was wondering about your gender, because Esther is a female name in English-speaking countries, but I think I read a post of yours where you said you’re a man. Did I imagine that post?
Comment by: Esther
99HaHaHa!
Ir, very interesting. I wouldn’t ever think that anyone would think that I maybe a man. I know what you mean. Maybe that’s my English. (English is my second language) Yes, I once said in () which is an expression. I said,
(I’m a PK man)
Which PK means Pastor’s kid, and “man” is just an expression.
Wow, you are very detailed and thoughtful. Yes, that should tell me that you are a female!
I guess I like analytical famale and empathetic guy!:-)
More of myself: I am a single mom who has seperated from my husband a little more than a year ago.
Got to go to work. Talk later
Comment by: Ir
100Hi Esther,
Yes, I picked up that English might be your second language (not that your English isn’t good - it’s very good) and also I read where you wrote “I’m a PK man”. I thought you meant “I’m a Promise Keeper man” - Promise Keepers being a Christian men’s movement aimed at making men better husbands and better followers of Jesus. Maybe you’ve heard of it.
Anyway, from that I wondered if in the country you came from, Esther was a man’s name - ha ha :) I guess not!
I’ve heard the expression PK to mean Pastor’s Kid but I didn’t realize that’s what you meant by it.
I’m sorry to hear about your marriage - whatever the reason that has to be hard. And raising a child alone must be hard too. I have enough trouble being a single Mom for a few days when my husband travels on business.
Comment by: Esther
101Ir,
First of all, I think we need to move over to another blog to keep this chat on.
(I have a feeling that Jim is still keeping this at the bottom solely for us :-) - very egocentric thought!
So, I’ll just post here the last time and I’ll move on to another blog.
If Ir you have any personal response to this entry, please e-mail me at:
estherlam@lynx.net
I like it when Jim said,
For me this diablog is not about atheism or christianity - its about learning and hearing. It’s about the unique opportunity we are provided when people who differ gather in one location to learn more than to teach, to hear more than to speak and to reflect on themselves more than to correct others.
Well, my excitement for being here is like a princess who for the first time get out of her Palace and see and feel the real world out there!
I was raised with JUST the “Fundamentalist Evangelical” Christian’s value system. I did feel uncomfortable.(I’m actually a very creative, sensitive & artistic type of person.)
I felt bounded and being kept in a box whenever I want to create something.
But, my up-bringing does not allow me to express anything that is outside the box! Eventhough the rebellious blood flow inside my body, yet yearning for acceptance and approval, I tried so hard to conform and live as best as I could to please God (Or please my parents, I’m not sure).
It was until 9 years ago, I suddenly realized I had an abusive marriage relationship and I wanted out. But this desire was not approved by my family and I then could not leave the marriage with all the pressure and baggage.
However, there was clearly a discreprecy between what they believe, and what I have personally experienced God.
Their believe is that divorce will not please God and therefore I’ll have to trust in God and just do what God said is right. What they said implied that if do anything otherwise will not have the blessing of God and therefore they cannot support it.
However, although I used to think the same way, during that period of time, I felt that God had not forsaken me at all. I kept on feeling God’s comfort, love and care around me.
(Or, Ir, would you think that is what you meant by you are fine without having God in your life? I still have God in my life, just did not live a life some God followers condole of. Just like those homosexual Christians.)
It was this very different experience of God that has given me strength to seek God from a totally bold and personal way.
I no longer look at or try to know God within the box. I give back God his/her status as GOD - my creator whom I would not be able to totally comprehend.
Through this very valuable journey, I found my true self back! I no longer need to live for other’s approval. I know that God created a unique me for a special purpose. Just following the “rules and regulations” given by the church and live a “formulated” life is actually an insult to our creator! (Why would the creator create whole bunch of people and require them to live a unified lifestyle?)
I now believe that for living out my potential to the fullest is to fulfill the original purpose of my creator!
In saying all that, I am still surrounded by Christians who think and live in a box! I began to have a lot of re-thinking and questioning of all the values and “truth” they have “taught” me before. Yet, I dare not to voice out to them.
This is why I’m very very excited to hear what all of you are saying so freely here!!
And therefore I’m very interested in knowing how you become a person that can NOT have God in your personal life? Or, what’s that means anyways,Ir?
I’ve written a book. Thanks for reading.
Got to make dinner. See you in other blog.
Or you will e-mail me? (Anyone is welcome to e-mail me, not just Ir. :-)