The hopeful first of many indeed! Great job, both of you. I’ll bet one of the major newsmags will be calling you soon. I’m looking foward to a good 12-17 minutes piece when they do.
Was it just me or did she seem to assume that the project had already reached a conclusion? At least she seemed to want Hement to have drawn some conclusions when he’s less than 10% in!
great job guys. it went off really well. you two, i believe, are setting the standard of how how two people from the different ends of the belief spectrum can have a civil honest conversation about the way god is presented through the modern church. although i do have one critique.
jim…buddy…buttoning the top button on your shirt is so 1970s (if even that:). undo a couple man. chest hair is back in style. :)
thank you to off-the-map. you guys have helped my wife and me put words to what we always believed deep down. conversations conversations conversations.
its nice to have an organization that represents what i believe in an era when it seems that every christian leader wants to spout off to the media some garbage that doesn’t resonate with what many of us really think. i pray that more exposure comes to otm, so that america can see that there are some who believe in jesus but don’t think we need to be arrogant, closedminded and mean. blessings on you guys.
It’s not surprising that the media keep referring to Hemant “selling his soul.”
We all know he didn’t auction off his “soul,” but that’s an easy soundbyte for the media to use.
eBay actually doesn’t actually allow users to auction their “souls.”
There was another atheist college student back in 2001 who tried to auction his “soul” on eBay.
Adam Burtle, a University of Washington student, put his “soul” on the auction block. The bidding got up to $400 till eBay pulled the plug on the auction.
You can read this article for free, but you have to register with the Seattle Times.
Hemant and Jim - what a great contribution to Respectful Dialogue and helping us understand others and ourselves better. You are really making a difference!
Lots of diablogging going on here, but I haven’t seen any posts from you in a while? Did you go to church yesterday? You were doing great at giving us the reviews & I’m looking forward to the next one. Note to Jim, might be time for a new thread - the others are getting so long that when you’re not here for a day or two, it’s difficult to get back in the swing of things. Also, just out of curiousity has fran left the building? (He seemed to be more interested in being antagonistic, so I left for a couple days.) Glad to be back.
Hey, that was really good, both of you. Hemant, I really, really like you! You are a cool guy!
I can’t wait to see you get excited and have fun with the scripture! It’s totally understandable that you think we over analyze the scripture and don’t offer much of application/relevance part, but once you get IT, I can tell that you are going to have fun with it!
Happy trails!
Hey Kaori,
You might want to check out some archives on some discussion on Strobel, it was mentioned a couple of days ago….I’m not sure which blog that was though…….
:)
TXatheist, Hemant’s Feb 11 entry on his own blog is about Lee Strobel. You might be interested to read that. In it Hemant links to rebuttals to each of Lee Strobel’s books.
It’s totally understandable that you think we over analyze the scripture and don’t offer much of application/relevance part, but once you get IT, I can tell that you are going to have fun with it!
But Kaori, there isn’t any point in Bible study unless it’s relevant and has application to our lives, is there?
You said in a previous entry that when you were a practicing Christian that you participated in Bible studies. During that time can you honestly say that there was absolutely nothing you discovered that was relevant or that you could apply to your life at the time?
Lynn, that’s a great question — thanks for asking!
With all due respect, it fascinates me that you phrased the question “can you honestly say that there was absolutely nothing you discovered that was relevant or that you could apply to your life at the time?” rather than “did you discover anything that was relevant or that you could apply to your life at the time?” It’s as if you feel I need reminding that I did discover useful and relevant things in Bible study. But actually, I don’t need reminding. I wouldn’t even attempt to deny that the Bible studies I was in were full of relevant application to my life and I did diligently seek to change by implementing what I heard at them/discovered through them.
Similarly to why I continued going to church, I continued going to Bible study for at least 2 years after the God parts stopped having personal meaning for me, precisely because Bible study was a group of people wanting to be better people - better parents, children, neighbors, friends, employees, employers, etc. And I still wanted to be a better person too. I still do today. That has not changed and I don’t expect it ever will (as long as I have a will).
Lynn, at the same time I was in church and Bible study I read books - all kinds of books. I applied them to my life too. I found extremely helpful things in books by atheists and new agers.
I found that I preferred sources which didn’t lecture me or patronize me or guilt-trip me. Bible study, like church, became a problem because I didn’t want to tell all the people who thought I was full of faith that I actually wasn’t at all, anymore.
The Evangelical Christian way of becoming a better person came to seem so inefficient, because of all the things that now had no meaning for me and all the things I disagreed with. It became very hard to be open to what I actually did helpful in Christian books and sermons and Bible studies when everything else tended to frustrate me. Let’s say, if I turn on Christian radio and there’s a message on, I can’t go more than a few minutes - maybe less, without wanting to turn it off because I ‘don’t need that’. It’s not just that ‘I don’t need that’ - it’s that in my opinion I don’t, combined with the presumption of the speaker that I do. I could keep sitting through sermons at church was because the speaker was not a complete stranger and I could believe he did care and did want the best for me - well, and because he was a good speaker and it was interesting to see what he decided to emphasize each week, from the passage(s) he used, and how he emphasized it. The sermon was a work of art, in a sense and I was interested to see how the painting would come out, what colors he would use this week, etc.
Anyway, so Bible teaching and being in Bible studies became too much like eating mixed nuts when I only really liked the cashews, amongst people who liked all of them. There just weren’t enough cashews to make it worth eating all the other nuts and pretending I liked them as much as everyone else. But, I don’t deny I like the cashews!
Texan, thanks! Don’t have the time to search that page and read, but I am glad that Strobel’s name came up.
TXatheist,
Didn’t know Earl Doherty. Checked out the reviews of his books Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel’s “The Case for Christ” and The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. Thank you for the information. I would love to read them sometime…currently pretty difficult with time restrictions.
Ir, thanks for info re: Feb 11 entry. I’ll look for it.
Peter Magelssen,
Apologize for unclear comment — I am really not articulate… I can’t explain things like a lot of intelligent people who writes here…I will let others explain it.
I should have said “once you get in touch with the Holy Spirit (and have Him reside in you) and have Him as your teacher, you will come to realize that the Word (scripture) is alive, and it starts to reveal what God is saying to you. Then the Word is not simply series of letters, but, rather, an object of relationship. (Oh, I know, I can hear people saying “what?!”) well, as John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The Word is Jesus. (I don’t know how to explain it…) (People like Ravi Zachrias would be able to explain faaaaar better - wwhttp://www.rzim.org/faqs/contact.php?id=7)
I derived that comment from verses like 1 Corinthians Chapter 1 (18-), 1 Corinthians 2:14…Ephesians 1:8 also says He lavishes us with wisdom and understanding (I am not saying those who don’t believe don’t have wisdom!) so, it is only natural that scripture don’t make sense…but as I said, I am not good at explaining things and I am no scholar, I will leave it at that…
I just pray that He gives anyone who is willing, a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Jesus, that the eyes of their heart may be enlightened… so that they may know Him better and find hope… (Ephesians 1:17&18).
Ir, But Kaori, there isn’t any point in Bible study unless it’s relevant and has application to our lives, is there?”
I don’t know. I came to Christ as an adult. I grew up in Japan where religion is not talked about a whole lot, and where different religious events are incorporated in the culture without any understanding of meaning or true appreciation…Shinto, Buddhism, Christianity, Paganism…and I did think that bible studies had to have relevant and applicable content. To some extent, it is true, but the purpose of my bible study is to know more about God, well to know God more is more like it…please note that this is where I am at now, and it doesn’t necessarily apply to all bible studies, or every Christian…
For me, I know that God has started some work in me to become more like Himself (I couldn’t grasp this very idea at first.. what do you mean to be more like Jesus??) and the Word says He will continue until the day I see Him face to face. (Philippians 1:6). No matter how I tried, I know I will fail if it was up to my own power to improve myself. But knowing that He has set a goal for me, and He will take me there, and if I fall, He’ll give me a hand, I’ll get up, I’ll walk with Him again — that’s comforting, that I don’t have to do it all on my own. Reading something like “this is my prayer, that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best….” (Philippians 1:9-10) comforts me. And reading things like “Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love” (Ephesians 5:2) makes me think “oh, I am dearly loved” and “wow, to imitate Him, I have to know who He is — I want to know who He is.” And that is my motivation to study bible.
I read Christian books, but I always come back to the bible, the Source.
And I find God in unexpected places. And that is fun too! (I will share about this somewhere else).
I listen to a ton of “secular” music and read a bunch of “regular” books because I enjoy them, but sometimes, as a big bonus, I find God in them.
Too bad that bible study became frustrating to you, that’s no fun…
Hi, Francis. It’s okay that you don’t belive it’s not true. That’s where you are. Where I am, is that I believe it. It IS fun to read the bible. I’m a linguist, so I like comparing translations. And when I find a translated word that intrigues me, then I go back to the original Greek or Hebrew. It’s fun for me. While doing that, I get something that God is trying to communicate to me. It’s fascinating! And I like referencing, so when I read my bible I go from here to there to there and back, and things start to make sense to me.
Kaori, since you enjoy looking up the original Hebrew, could you take a look at comment #76 of An Atheist Pastor where I posted about a translation that puzzles me. I’d be interested in your thoughts.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
1The hopeful first of many indeed! Great job, both of you. I’ll bet one of the major newsmags will be calling you soon. I’m looking foward to a good 12-17 minutes piece when they do.
Comment by: Cully
2Was it just me or did she seem to assume that the project had already reached a conclusion? At least she seemed to want Hement to have drawn some conclusions when he’s less than 10% in!
Regardless, great job you guys!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3it was her
Comment by: peter magelssen
4great job guys. it went off really well. you two, i believe, are setting the standard of how how two people from the different ends of the belief spectrum can have a civil honest conversation about the way god is presented through the modern church. although i do have one critique.
jim…buddy…buttoning the top button on your shirt is so 1970s (if even that:). undo a couple man. chest hair is back in style. :)
thank you to off-the-map. you guys have helped my wife and me put words to what we always believed deep down. conversations conversations conversations.
its nice to have an organization that represents what i believe in an era when it seems that every christian leader wants to spout off to the media some garbage that doesn’t resonate with what many of us really think. i pray that more exposure comes to otm, so that america can see that there are some who believe in jesus but don’t think we need to be arrogant, closedminded and mean. blessings on you guys.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
5Thanks Peter- I am going to hire an image consultant so I can look as cool an Hemant
Comment by: Ir
6LOL Jim! Hemant does look great, that’s for sure.
Great news segment - thanks for making it available here.
Comment by: Rick
7YOu guys rule!
Comment by: HumanistEditor
8Hemant made the newspaper in India:
Indian sells his soul on eBay for $504
Comment by: darci
9Front page of the Seattle Times this morning!
Great article!
Comment by: TXatheist
10http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/PDF/frontpage.pdf
note:large pdf file for anyone using dial up so patience required:)
Comment by: HumanistEditor
11It’s not surprising that the media keep referring to Hemant “selling his soul.”
We all know he didn’t auction off his “soul,” but that’s an easy soundbyte for the media to use.
eBay actually doesn’t actually allow users to auction their “souls.”
There was another atheist college student back in 2001 who tried to auction his “soul” on eBay.
Adam Burtle, a University of Washington student, put his “soul” on the auction block. The bidding got up to $400 till eBay pulled the plug on the auction.
You can read this article for free, but you have to register with the Seattle Times.
“Woodinville man sells soul for $400”
Feb. 9, 2001
By Mark Rahner
Seattle Times staff reporter
Comment by: Marty
12Hemant and Jim - what a great contribution to Respectful Dialogue and helping us understand others and ourselves better. You are really making a difference!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
13Thanks Marty
We appreciate the encouragement
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
14can i have your guys autograph :-)
Comment by: Lynn I.
15Hey Hemant,
Lots of diablogging going on here, but I haven’t seen any posts from you in a while? Did you go to church yesterday? You were doing great at giving us the reviews & I’m looking forward to the next one. Note to Jim, might be time for a new thread - the others are getting so long that when you’re not here for a day or two, it’s difficult to get back in the swing of things. Also, just out of curiousity has fran left the building? (He seemed to be more interested in being antagonistic, so I left for a couple days.) Glad to be back.
Comment by: Kaori
16Hey, that was really good, both of you. Hemant, I really, really like you! You are a cool guy!
I can’t wait to see you get excited and have fun with the scripture! It’s totally understandable that you think we over analyze the scripture and don’t offer much of application/relevance part, but once you get IT, I can tell that you are going to have fun with it!
Happy trails!
Comment by: Kaori
17Have you talked to Lee Strobel yet?
Comment by: Texan
18Hey Kaori,
You might want to check out some archives on some discussion on Strobel, it was mentioned a couple of days ago….I’m not sure which blog that was though…….
:)
Comment by: TXatheist
19If Hemant does read Lee Strobel I’d also hope he reads a good book by Earl Doherty.
Comment by: Ir
20TXatheist, Hemant’s Feb 11 entry on his own blog is about Lee Strobel. You might be interested to read that. In it Hemant links to rebuttals to each of Lee Strobel’s books.
Comment by: peter magelssen
21“but once you get IT, I can tell that you are going to have fun with it!”
Kaori…i don’t understand your statement. what is the IT that hemant needs to have before he has fun with scripture?
Comment by: TXatheist
22Thanks Ir:)
Comment by: Ir
23Kaori wrote:
But Kaori, there isn’t any point in Bible study unless it’s relevant and has application to our lives, is there?
Comment by: Lynn I.
24Ir,
You said in a previous entry that when you were a practicing Christian that you participated in Bible studies. During that time can you honestly say that there was absolutely nothing you discovered that was relevant or that you could apply to your life at the time?
Comment by: Ir
25Lynn, that’s a great question — thanks for asking!
With all due respect, it fascinates me that you phrased the question “can you honestly say that there was absolutely nothing you discovered that was relevant or that you could apply to your life at the time?” rather than “did you discover anything that was relevant or that you could apply to your life at the time?” It’s as if you feel I need reminding that I did discover useful and relevant things in Bible study. But actually, I don’t need reminding. I wouldn’t even attempt to deny that the Bible studies I was in were full of relevant application to my life and I did diligently seek to change by implementing what I heard at them/discovered through them.
Similarly to why I continued going to church, I continued going to Bible study for at least 2 years after the God parts stopped having personal meaning for me, precisely because Bible study was a group of people wanting to be better people - better parents, children, neighbors, friends, employees, employers, etc. And I still wanted to be a better person too. I still do today. That has not changed and I don’t expect it ever will (as long as I have a will).
Lynn, at the same time I was in church and Bible study I read books - all kinds of books. I applied them to my life too. I found extremely helpful things in books by atheists and new agers.
I found that I preferred sources which didn’t lecture me or patronize me or guilt-trip me. Bible study, like church, became a problem because I didn’t want to tell all the people who thought I was full of faith that I actually wasn’t at all, anymore.
The Evangelical Christian way of becoming a better person came to seem so inefficient, because of all the things that now had no meaning for me and all the things I disagreed with. It became very hard to be open to what I actually did helpful in Christian books and sermons and Bible studies when everything else tended to frustrate me. Let’s say, if I turn on Christian radio and there’s a message on, I can’t go more than a few minutes - maybe less, without wanting to turn it off because I ‘don’t need that’. It’s not just that ‘I don’t need that’ - it’s that in my opinion I don’t, combined with the presumption of the speaker that I do. I could keep sitting through sermons at church was because the speaker was not a complete stranger and I could believe he did care and did want the best for me - well, and because he was a good speaker and it was interesting to see what he decided to emphasize each week, from the passage(s) he used, and how he emphasized it. The sermon was a work of art, in a sense and I was interested to see how the painting would come out, what colors he would use this week, etc.
Anyway, so Bible teaching and being in Bible studies became too much like eating mixed nuts when I only really liked the cashews, amongst people who liked all of them. There just weren’t enough cashews to make it worth eating all the other nuts and pretending I liked them as much as everyone else. But, I don’t deny I like the cashews!
Comment by: Kaori
26Texan, thanks! Don’t have the time to search that page and read, but I am glad that Strobel’s name came up.
TXatheist,
Didn’t know Earl Doherty. Checked out the reviews of his books Challenging the Verdict: A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel’s “The Case for Christ” and The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. Thank you for the information. I would love to read them sometime…currently pretty difficult with time restrictions.
Ir, thanks for info re: Feb 11 entry. I’ll look for it.
Peter Magelssen,
Apologize for unclear comment — I am really not articulate… I can’t explain things like a lot of intelligent people who writes here…I will let others explain it.
I should have said “once you get in touch with the Holy Spirit (and have Him reside in you) and have Him as your teacher, you will come to realize that the Word (scripture) is alive, and it starts to reveal what God is saying to you. Then the Word is not simply series of letters, but, rather, an object of relationship. (Oh, I know, I can hear people saying “what?!”) well, as John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The Word is Jesus. (I don’t know how to explain it…) (People like Ravi Zachrias would be able to explain faaaaar better - wwhttp://www.rzim.org/faqs/contact.php?id=7)
I derived that comment from verses like 1 Corinthians Chapter 1 (18-), 1 Corinthians 2:14…Ephesians 1:8 also says He lavishes us with wisdom and understanding (I am not saying those who don’t believe don’t have wisdom!) so, it is only natural that scripture don’t make sense…but as I said, I am not good at explaining things and I am no scholar, I will leave it at that…
I just pray that He gives anyone who is willing, a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Jesus, that the eyes of their heart may be enlightened… so that they may know Him better and find hope… (Ephesians 1:17&18).
Ir,
But Kaori, there isn’t any point in Bible study unless it’s relevant and has application to our lives, is there?”
I don’t know. I came to Christ as an adult. I grew up in Japan where religion is not talked about a whole lot, and where different religious events are incorporated in the culture without any understanding of meaning or true appreciation…Shinto, Buddhism, Christianity, Paganism…and I did think that bible studies had to have relevant and applicable content. To some extent, it is true, but the purpose of my bible study is to know more about God, well to know God more is more like it…please note that this is where I am at now, and it doesn’t necessarily apply to all bible studies, or every Christian…
For me, I know that God has started some work in me to become more like Himself (I couldn’t grasp this very idea at first.. what do you mean to be more like Jesus??) and the Word says He will continue until the day I see Him face to face. (Philippians 1:6). No matter how I tried, I know I will fail if it was up to my own power to improve myself. But knowing that He has set a goal for me, and He will take me there, and if I fall, He’ll give me a hand, I’ll get up, I’ll walk with Him again — that’s comforting, that I don’t have to do it all on my own. Reading something like “this is my prayer, that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best….” (Philippians 1:9-10) comforts me. And reading things like “Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love” (Ephesians 5:2) makes me think “oh, I am dearly loved” and “wow, to imitate Him, I have to know who He is — I want to know who He is.” And that is my motivation to study bible.
I read Christian books, but I always come back to the bible, the Source.
And I find God in unexpected places. And that is fun too! (I will share about this somewhere else).
I listen to a ton of “secular” music and read a bunch of “regular” books because I enjoy them, but sometimes, as a big bonus, I find God in them.
Too bad that bible study became frustrating to you, that’s no fun…
BTW, I am really sorry, if I spoke Christianese…
Comment by: Kaori
27One more thing,
Ravi Zacharias’s Let My People Think is good to listen to.
Why I’m Not An Atheist, Pt 1
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Let_My_People_Think/archives.asp?bcd=1/22/2006
Why I’m Not An Atheist, Pt 2
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Let_My_People_Think/archives.asp?bcd=1/29/2006
Comment by: Ir
28Hi Kaori,
It’s ok, I’m fluent in Christianese :)
Comment by: Kaori
29ha ha ha ha haaaaa!
Comment by: Lisa W.
30I believe Francis is the infamous Fran. You may ignore her.
Comment by: Kaori
31Hi, Francis. It’s okay that you don’t belive it’s not true. That’s where you are. Where I am, is that I believe it. It IS fun to read the bible. I’m a linguist, so I like comparing translations. And when I find a translated word that intrigues me, then I go back to the original Greek or Hebrew. It’s fun for me. While doing that, I get something that God is trying to communicate to me. It’s fascinating! And I like referencing, so when I read my bible I go from here to there to there and back, and things start to make sense to me.
Comment by: Ir
32Kaori, since you enjoy looking up the original Hebrew, could you take a look at comment #76 of An Atheist Pastor where I posted about a translation that puzzles me. I’d be interested in your thoughts.