Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.14.2006 /
Comment #70 From Read the Article - Heres my question/comment
An argument Christians often make is that they’re comforted by believing in God and the tenents of their religion, and therefore we atheists must be missing something important in their lives.
As an athiest however, I feel that not believing in God is comforting, especially in a world where no one seems to agree on what/who/how God is.
Note: There are currently over 2300 denominations (just talking protestantism) and (from an atheists perspective) were not even including all religions and their split offs.
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Comment by: Lisa W.
1 03/14/06 6:09 PM | Comment Link |This post is now open for comments
Comment by: Siamang
2 03/14/06 6:41 PM | Comment Link |I think anyones personal belief probably provides some comfort. Even if atheism is totally wrong, I’m sure I get some comfort in THINKING I’m onto something right.
That’s something that perhaps I should work on. Nobody suffers from too much humility.
In a different sense, I’ve read posts from atheists who back in their Christian years interpreted unanswered prayers or terrible providence as a message from God that they were doing wrong in His eyes. There was a burden lifted from their hearts when they came to believe that there wasn’t a punishment behind their personal trials.
Perhaps that is a cold sort of comfort. The world can be a rocky place sometimes, but I can say that I am satisfied to experience it in its hard, harsh nature too.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3 03/14/06 7:20 PM | Comment Link |Siamang
Is there anything you have a sense of missing in your life - you seem very content and sure of yourself (BTW - this is not a trick question or a set up) I am just asking in response to your #2 post
Comment by: Rick
4 03/14/06 8:17 PM | Comment Link |In response to Jim’s question to post #2:
I had the same question about non-believers when I was still an adherant. It seemed like a empty space with nothing to fill in.
However once you have doubts and eventually cross the line that seperates religions and freethought, it opens up a whole new vista. There is far more to explore and experience beyond the horizons of religion. So no Jim, as freethinkers we do not feel like we miss anything. Most of us have experienced/studied more than one religion, kept the good things and discarded the rest.
There is not much to miss out in terms of belief. As for community support, yes, freethinkers don’t have that good of a community support. But now we do have a lot of freethought societies and skeptics fellowships coming up all around and its not hard to find such a group in a decent sized town.
Peace,
-R
Comment by: Ron
5 03/14/06 8:42 PM | Comment Link |When I was in a philosophy class in college, the first day of class the prof. had us discuss Absolute Standards. He was an atheist and said the only way atheism holds weight is to not believe in Absolute Standards because if you believe in Absolute Standards then you have to believe that someone has the final say.
For me, this is where I came to utter rest with my Christianity. An atheist may personally be completely convicted that adultery is wrong but if they encounter someone else who thinks it okay, with no Absolute Standard to show that one belief is better than the other, then the atheist has to be utterly content with the idea of each to his own. In my opinion this creates unrest.
I have heard atheists here say things are wrong because they go against the good of society in general. But the good of society has become their Absolute Standard just titled differently.
Another atheist may say that it is wrong because of common sense, then common sense has become their Absolute Standard. It doesn’t matter what you say is the determinant of right and wrong, they all bring God back into the equation in different names of an Absolute Standard.
A true atheist must acknowledge no rule other than the one posted by a government. It had to come from somewhere. But for the sake of argument lets pretend that it just sounded good one day so the government made laws and that is where our laws originated from.
Now picture that we are all sitting in a room together and someone comes into the room and before all of our eyes, brutally murders a six year old child. By definition, the atheist will believe it is wrong to have done that but only because the murder goes against human law because there is no Absolute Standard.
I beg to differ. I believe that if we were all in that room and witnessed that brutal crime, then something deep inside of us would scream that it is wrong with every ounce of our being reguardless of a human rule.
If you don’t believe in Absolute Standards then you could say, “well it was wrong for me but it must have been right for the murderer.” I wonder if this is why atheists can only ask questions about God but can give no answer.
My overall question for everyone is, Where do we get our knowledge of what is truely right and wrong?
Comment by: Siamang
6 03/14/06 9:33 PM | Comment Link |I’ll come back to ron, that’s going to take awhile.
But yeah, Jim, I think there are pieces missing in atheism that we have to go elsewhere to find or find the best equavalents we can. We’re missing fellowship, so things like this online discussion can help fill that void.
For me, the sense of wonder and connectedness to creation is not something I get in a church service. But learning about science fills me with wonder. If you could say that that central need for what CS Lewis called “joy” is a human need, well, I fill that by reading biology textbooks, or looking through a telescope.
A big missing piece is the ability to work on oneself. To constantly challenge ourselves to be the best possible people we can be. Church is a great structure for that. Perhaps someone should write “The Purpose-Driven Atheist Life,” because I think a lot of people could get some use out of it. Too much of life is spent meandering, I think.
Church, in its fellowship, offers so much, so many positives. It’s easy to forget that if you don’t go, and you don’t believe. But the church is a living thing, caring for people.
At the same time, I cannot see me going to a church. There’s something about me and groups of people. Work environments I like, but as soon as people aren’t getting paid, something comes out of them. They like to form committees, run fundraisers, give each other awards…. The politics among people whose only power is the ability to get other people to join their clique… It’s like the popular kids table in school all over again.
Anyway, I don’t belong to any clubs, either. I see parts of the human condition there that I don’t find attractive.
Comment by: Rick
7 03/14/06 10:30 PM | Comment Link |Ron,
Not all freethinkers are moral relativists. There is an entire branch of sociology called “Social Contract”. What religious people call morality, freethinkers call social contract.
You can arrive at common conclusions through logical analysis, and it makes it even less relativist. But thats a topic for forums not blogs :)
Comment by: Ir
8 03/15/06 4:28 AM | Comment Link |I used to be comforted by believing in God - well, I mean, I used to believe myself comforted by God.
I was afraid of life without that comfort when I found myself unable to be sure who God is and even whether he exists at all; but I found other ways of deriving comfort which now seem better and more real. I know the people who try to comfort me are real and I prefer real imperfect comfort to what is perfect but may only be imaginary. I learned I didn’t need God in the way I thought I did and in the way I was told I did every week at church and in Bible study. It simply wasn’t true that I have needs only God can meet.
Siamang - I love your honesty! I do miss being with people in the way I was with them in church and Bible study. Not the God part but the fellowship part.
I also miss the stillness of prayer and so I try to remember to take time to be still in a similar way, but without talking to someone I’m not sure exists. I think it’s beneficial to take time to be still in that way. It can be calming and restore perspective as long as it doesn’t turn into an ‘obsession session’ where my mind traces endless circles of worry, going nowhere.
Siamang, the really sad part is that if the gospels are at all accurate and Jesus said anything clearly, it was “STOP doing this!!!”
How can anyone who has read the gospels carefully and thoughtfully think Jesus is pleased with the ‘exclusive club’ mentality “you’re in, you’re out” of believism?
Most of the things Jesus (according to the gospels) didn’t like about the Jewish religious leaders seem to have been transferred to the Christian religious system. The Christian religious system claims Jesus as their hero, which makes him a champion of many things he said he absolutely hates.
The liberal Christians -including Spong - have noticed this and are attempting to address it and for doing that the full righteous indignation of many Bible-believing Christian leaders is turned on them. It’s so like the Jewish religious leaders and Jesus. All over again.
Uh-oh, am I ranting? I’ll stop before my head (or anyone else’s) explodes ;)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
9 03/15/06 4:57 AM | Comment Link |Ir writes “Most of the things Jesus (according to the gospels) didn’t like about the Jewish religious leaders seem to have been transferred to the Christian religious system. The Christian religious system claims Jesus as their hero, which makes him a champion of many things he said he absolutely hates.”
Amen! A stirring and accurate indictment of the way the church behaves today. So many of us believers (I hate to lump myself in with all of them, but they’re like the embarassing brother or uncle or cousin at the wedding who you want to ignore, but you’re related so what do you do…) pick and choose our battles that Christ would not.
This is why, as much as I might personally oppose the theology of a man like John Spong, it isn’t my whole agenda for living. I’m not going to demonstrate or start a letter writing campaign or something like that. If I’m going to say I’m pro-life, for instance, then that darn sure better mean I’m against the death penalty, too! I suspect that if every Christian made his personal life agenda more like Christ’s (and I’m trying… I’m tryiing…) we’d all look less like Pat Robertson and more like Mother Theresa… and if we ALL looked like that, I bet a bunch of you who don’t believe might give that whole “God” thing another shot, because we’d be the evidence of His existence, and the evidence of His love.
That’s my prayer!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
10 03/15/06 5:01 AM | Comment Link |This is threatening to be a very interesting discussion.
Comment by: Ir
11 03/15/06 5:31 AM | Comment Link |Peter, do you mean “I’m determined that my Christian life will consist of way more than visibly protesting against theology and ideologies I don’t agree with”?
See, here’s the bottom line for me, Peter - even if it didn’t lead to a single conversion to Christian belief it would make the world a better place. So I think it’s worth doing.
Comment by: TXatheist
12 03/15/06 5:37 AM | Comment Link |Peter,
I’ll gladly meet you half way. When anyone acts well I’ll gladly agree with them and be a part of that.
I hope you’ll look into Spong even if that means you continue to disagree with him. Honestly, I’ve used him to find middle ground with xians and that is not easy for me. I don’t want to oppose them but I also don’t want them to think I want to leave my atheist view.
Comment by: Ir
13 03/15/06 5:44 AM | Comment Link |It’s so hard to avoid the club-mentality. We’re pleased with ourselves for showing each other respect unlike what those other people do. We want to turn on someone who posts here disrespectfully with our righteous indignation. Because they aren’t following our rules. We don’t want anyone to ‘mess up’ this little community.
It’s so easy for us to do it too.
Jesus said about the rich person - metaphorically, the entitled person; the person who has while others have not; the person who’s in and not out - it’s harder for him to get into the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. (Even if he was actually referring to a small gate it was still hard)
Jesus said, hey, you in-people, your neighbors are the out-people.
Jesus talked with and touched and had dinner with the out-people.
And I expect that for a while, they did that too.
But it’s so easy for a group of out-people who get together to become the new in-people. Even though they really hated the system when they were on the outside.
Comment by: Ron
14 03/15/06 5:49 AM | Comment Link |Ir,
I wanted to let you know that I did get your posts in response to mine yesterday and I thouroughly appreciate them it just seemed like I was ignoring you because we were on at different times. Thank you again for what you have to offer here.
I am facinated with what you and Siamang say here on this page. To both of you, reguardless of others agreeing or not with ya’ll I for one want to say I appreciate what you have to offer and please continue.
Comment by: Ir
15 03/15/06 5:51 AM | Comment Link |Peter, like TXatheist, I hope you’ll look into Spong too so that you can see his heart. Then you’ll see that one thing which drove him away from traditional Christian belief was that he couldn’t bear the way it led Christians to treat gay people. He decided to go with treating them better rather than adherence to a religious belief system which didn’t.
He has intellectual reasons for his position also which I expect you won’t agree with, but I think you would respect his heart for human beings.
Which is something that many atheists have too and that’s why some choose the term ‘humanist’ to describe themselves.
Comment by: Ir
16 03/15/06 5:52 AM | Comment Link |Ron, no problem. I saw where you said real life had kept you busy yesterday (what a strange concept ;)).
Anyway, I’m glad you saw my response to you.
Comment by: April
17 03/15/06 5:59 AM | Comment Link |I think this whole thing is so interesting. I hear Christians say this a lot- how much their belief in God is comforting to them. While I can appreciate that in some small way, it seems like the message of the Dominion of God is more a challenge, if not an outright condemnation, to the way so many of us (myself included) live our lives.
I heard Marus Borg speak last night and he said something like, the whole Bible is an anti-imperical document. Make of that what you will, but I’m not sure I’ve read many (or any) kind words towards the dominant social/political structures in the Bible, and def. not in the words of Jesus.
As people living in America, I’m not sure where the comfort is in this…
I mean, I guess there is comfort in knowing that God is presnt with us, that God loves us? But on the other side of that coin is us looking at the world, everything going on around us, making it abundantly clear that we are so unable to return the affection.
im not interested in a christianity whose sole purpose is to comfort- that feels everything like cheap grace and nothing like passion for heaven on earth.
Comment by: Albert
18 03/15/06 6:15 AM | Comment Link |Sorry to tear down your idol folks but there’s a very ugly side to Mother Theresa
http://www.meteorbooks.com/introduction.html
Comment by: Ron
19 03/15/06 6:19 AM | Comment Link |I love that. Leo Buscaglia tells a story of one of the most important lessons that he learned on love was when he sent a telegram to his mom and because it cost money per letter, all he said was, “Starving…Leo” and his mom sent him a response that said, “Starve.” He didn’t realize it at the time but in retrospect, that was the best lesson he ever got in tough love and he said that it strengthened his relationship with his mom.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
20 03/15/06 6:22 AM | Comment Link |per # 18 If that is all the “ugliness” they can come up with - bring it on. Turns out Teresa was just like Albert and I (at least on some level) a broken, insecure and at times fearful and controlling human being - so shes not a saint - who cares - she did pretty good with what she had.
When I get to heaven, I expect Jesus first words to be “Nice Try”
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
21 03/15/06 6:29 AM | Comment Link |Ir writes “He {Spong} has intellectual reasons for his position also which I expect you won’t agree with, but I think you would respect his heart for human beings.
Which is something that many atheists have too and that’s why some choose the term ‘humanist’ to describe themselves.”
I like the term “humanist” for that reason. No, from what I know of Spong (and I have “looked into him” some) I have no doubt of his heart. But I believe he’s let his heart rule his head, and thrown out the baby with the bath water… or perhaps thrown out the mother with the bathwater.
It is true that many Christians and so-called Christians have behaved horribly toward homosexuals. That in an of itself does not make the traditional Christian belief system wrong and in need of reformation. I’ll put it this way. We don’t believe that all Germans are anti-Semites today because of what happened in the 30s and early 40s there.
Is Christianity in need of a “new reformation”? Perhaps, but not a theological one that dispenses with, as Spong asserts, all the basic tenents of the faith. I would assert, as Rick Warren of “Purpose-Driven Life” fame, has said recently, that it is a reformation of behavior. As a Christ-follower, I long for the day when my faith is known by those who don’t share it by my actions and not a list of things I’m against.
I’m not going to change, however, my belief system because of the way some who share it behave. Just like an atheist is not going to convert to Christianity because of the behavior of Stalin.
And I love what you say, April. Christianity for me is very NOT comforting in many ways, but that alone does not dissuade me from following Christ, especially since he said it would be a tough hard road.
Might not get back to this till much later… very busy day. have a great one, everybody…
Comment by: Nutrideath
22 03/15/06 6:29 AM | Comment Link |Lots of truth there, Ir. When I look at modern-day “Christianity” I can understand why so many turn to atheism. So much hypocrisy, so many out-&-out crimes committed by people claiming to be “Christian.” Especially heinous are the leaders of the churches. The obvious example that springs to mind is the Catholic sex scandals of the last few years. I’ve never understood why most of those priests have not wound up in jail. And many of the perpetrators gain accomplices in their bosses within the church, who hide them & move them & allow them to continue their evil ways.
So when any sane person looks at that track record, it’s a natural & logical conclusion for them to say “If these people are representing ‘God’ then either he doesn’t exist or I don’t want anything to do with him.”
But you have to remember that just because a person claims to love God, that doesn’t mean God loves them. Many believers would say “Oh, but God loves us all! It doesn’t matter how bad we are, he still loves us.” That attitude is why so many non-believers are non-believers.
As Ron pointed out with his illustration of the murder of the six-year-old, we all have a built-in sense of justice. When we see such tremendous injustices in the world - and many of these being committed by people claiming to be “Christian,” or even by leaders in a “Christian” church - our sense of moral outrage kicks in. And, while God is a very forgiving person, he also not one to be mocked. (Gal. 6:7) He knows the difference between weakness & wickedness.
So just because a person or a church claims to be “Christian” that claim does not automatically mean they are approved by God, or that they have his backing. Many so-called “Christians” are in actuality rejected by God. Notice what Jesus himself prophesied about our time (note especially beginning in vs. 21):
(Matthew 7:15-23) 15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
23 03/15/06 6:38 AM | Comment Link |Is it possible to keep the comments shorter, more succint, fewer long quotations or am I the only one who scans when they read?
Comment by: HumanistEditor
24 03/15/06 6:40 AM | Comment Link |The Secular Student Alliance published a monthly enews (which is edited by Hemant).
The theme last month was “My Struggle with Disbelief.” The newsletter included some excellent stories from atheist leaders like Lori Lipman Brown, lobbyist for the Secular Coalition for America, Bobbie Kirkhart, president of Atheist Alliance International and others.
Click here to read the newsletter.
Comment by: Albert
25 03/15/06 6:53 AM | Comment Link |To Jim,
Denying dying people proper pain relief, reusing dirty needles etc etc all while sitting on a bank account worth MILLIONS is a travesty. Give your head a shake man. Read the whole thing before you give such an uninformed opinion. Theresa was a religious zealot who cared not for relieving suffering but instead wanted to “win” as many souls for God. Thanks to people like Malcolm Muggeridge and a media (that she knew how to manipulate) that only put the best spin on things she got un undeservedly good portrayal.
Comment by: Ron
26 03/15/06 6:59 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath,
When I pour my heart into one of my blogs, i.e. #5, I am always a little terified because I wonder if it will hold up under the intense scrutiny that it may come under. In our kindness here we have become very vulnerable and so I can appreciate where you are coming from in reguards to your vulnerability however, I don’t know that I agree with you 100%.
What are you really trying to say? What are you hoping to accomplish with this bold statement?
As Christians, we have mulitple examples of what God’s rejection looks like scripturally and His love for us always brings Him back. My point is that we don’t have a clue what His final rejection is going to look like and who it will include.
Comment by: skikid
27 03/15/06 7:03 AM | Comment Link |Siamang~I completely agree with you when you said “For me, the sense of wonder and connectedness to creation is not something I get in a church service”. Sometimes I do but mostly I find that on the in mountains. There is something about being on top of a mountain, I don’t know what it is but I yet to find that complete feeling of connectedness in any Church that I have been in.
Ir~ Per your comment in 14, thanks. A good and necessary reminder.
TX~As for Spong, I spent a couple of hours poking around his web-site last night. He is a very interesting fellow. I think the reason I am so drawn to him is his heart. I guess I would echo April’s sentiment about comfort in God when April said “As people living in America, I’m not sure where the comfort is in this…
I mean, I guess there is comfort in knowing that God is present with us, that God loves us? But on the other side of that coin is us looking at the world, everything going on around us, making it abundantly clear that we are so unable to return the affection.” I think that Spong in trying to address this with this theses. If we (X-ians, whoever) are not able to accept his theses then what’s plan B?
Comment by: Nutrideath
28 03/15/06 7:25 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
We have a wonderful freedom given to us by God - we can be free of our sins. But we cannot abuse that freedom. Notice:
(1 Peter 2:16) 16 Be as free people, and yet holding YOUR freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.
A blind is something you hide behind - say, in the instance of a hunter. So, Peter is telling us here that we shouldn’t hide behind Jesus’ sin-atoning sacrifice. We shouldn’t have the attitude “Well, Jesus died to absolve me of my sins, so, I guess I can do whatever I want! Murder! Rape! Whatever comes to mind, it’s all covered! My card is punched!”
Many call themselves Christian, but don’t follow the teachings of Christ in the slightest. They’re like, “Oh well, I’m sinful. But God forgives, right? So I’m not changing.”
Others are far worse. They lead a congregation, or at least have some measure of authority. Rather than using that authority in a loving way towards the flock, they fleece it - either for money or power or sex or whatever. But they do that while still wearing the cloak of “Christianity.”
God sees thru this. He loves & extends forgiveness to those who are truly repentant of sins & who truly make an effort to change. But if a person works against God, he should expect God to be against him. If he joins (or starts) a church because he sees easy targets in the membership, well - he’s mocking God.
This is a fair description of many churches and their leadership today. Would you agree? It’s this hypocrisy that turns so many to atheism.
But those churches & those people do not really represent God. He rejects them, and they are not an accurate depiction of true Christianity.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
29 03/15/06 7:33 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath wrote It’s this hypocrisy that turns so many to atheism.
This is an interesting assertion and one to which I hope some of the atheists will reply.
Were I to hazard a guess, I’d say that lots of people raised in church or exposed to Christians become disinterested in being a follower of Christ or connection with his church. But atheism? I would be surprised if many atheists would identify the hypocrisy of self-identified Christians as a significant piece of their turning from belief in God. What say you, atheist friends?
Comment by: TXatheist
30 03/15/06 7:40 AM | Comment Link |skikid,
I don’t have a plan B. I’m just glad you took the time to look into Spong. Like I said, it’s not easy for me either as an atheist trying to find middle ground with a xian but Spong is my guy so far.
Comment by: TXatheist
31 03/15/06 7:42 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath,
I’m asking politely that you not suppose god’s character. You can’t speak for god is what I’m requesting.
Comment by: skikid
32 03/15/06 7:47 AM | Comment Link |TX~
I have a hard time with the finding middle ground idea. I dont mean that we should not all dialogue, but I dont think that we should expect to all end up somewhere in the middle. I dont feel as though I can hold my beliefs any less strongly than I do, nor do I expect that of you. I wonder if the question is not more along the line of how we can learn to live and work togther to create a just and compassionate society?
Comment by: TXatheist
33 03/15/06 7:49 AM | Comment Link |Fair enough:)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
34 03/15/06 8:06 AM | Comment Link |Skikid…
So well said! I love hanging around (even if it’s virtually) with people who are smarter than me. It’s exhilirating!
And TX, I have to admit, despite my misgivings about Spong, if you find his views as middle ground, I have to admit that from my perspective, that might be “progress”. Certainly progress in dialog between us, and perhaps even progress for you towards faith in God… but only if He’s really there and shows Himself to you to your satisfaction… something I think He can do. The jury is out on that.
God bless you… if He’s even there… and if He feels like it (not meant sarcastically if you can believe it… seriously…)
;-)
Comment by: TXatheist
35 03/15/06 8:11 AM | Comment Link |I realize the god bless you thing is a term of endearment and I am grateful but I truly hope that you will see I’m not progressing toward god but to understanding my fellow man.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
36 03/15/06 8:17 AM | Comment Link |“understanding my fellow man.” Yup, I hope we all are progressing toward that!
Comment by: Rick L in TX
37 03/15/06 8:19 AM | Comment Link |TX, a question for you.
As I read your #34 I thought to myself that “God Bless You” spoken by a believer is a wish for good towards the recipient of the comment. Perhaps somewhat analogous to “I wish you well”. However, the atheist reader would, I presume, have no reason at all to believe that my wishes in your direction have any impact at all on your well-being. Presumably you disbelieve in “wishes” as any source of power. Would you therefore find “I wish you well” to similarly be a source of irritation?
Or would it be more accurate for me to conclude that, when you hear a believer say “GBY”, it feels to you as though it’s a poke in the eye with a sharp stick - the believer’s intent is not to wish you well, but really to jab you again with their conviction that there is a god who is there?
Rick L in TX
Comment by: Ir
38 03/15/06 8:53 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath, your argument seems to be “Hey - they’re not in my club! I know they say they are but they aren’t”.
With all due respect, you haven’t gotten away from the exclusive-club mentality which I think Jesus’ words in the gospels so strongly oppose.
Of course, it’s the people pretending to be in my club, who aren’t really in it, who are messing things up. Not the people in the club, no, that couldn’t be possible… ;)
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
39 03/15/06 9:40 AM | Comment Link |RE: #30
Skikid, I don’t know if my assumptions are TX’s assumptions, but for me, the common ground cannot be in the realm of theology/atheology. As you correctly point out, we each hold our beliefs fairly tightly, and, in the absence of a sense of “Could I be wrong here?”, it would violate the integrity of all of us to come up with some compromise blend of theology and atheology akin to Spong’s.
But there is a broad area of common ground available to all of us. It is our shared experience as human beings. Too often Christians have stereotyped atheists as godless moral relativists and atheists have stereotyped Christians as soft-headed, hard-hearted racists and homophobes. And each side can point to enough specific examples in the other to make the stereotypes seem justifiable.
Jim’s genius in this site has been that, in our conversation, we are both having the opportunity to share conversation and our human side. And thus, TX nails down the common ground: growing in understanding our fellow man.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: David S
40 03/15/06 9:45 AM | Comment Link |For what it’s worth I’m much more at ease with my life and with my death as an atheist than I was as a Christian.
And a couple quotes that are on topic…
“Although the time of death is approaching me, I am not afraid of dying and going to Hell or (what would be considerably worse) going to the popularized version of Heaven. I expect death to be nothingness and, for removing me from all possible fears of death, I am thankful to atheism.”
– Isaac Asimov
“I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit.”
– Mark Twain
—
And to Ron, religion doesn’t have an absolute morality either. For religion morality is whatever God says it is (or rather whatever the man claiming authority from God says it is). In the OT it’s sometimes moral to obliterate enemy tribes down to their children and cattle and trees. In the NT it’s turn the other cheek. In the future it could be something else if God (or rather some man speaking for God) says so. It doesn’t get more subjective than that.
Comment by: Chris
41 03/15/06 2:19 PM | Comment Link |Sorry to drag this from far upthread, but I’ve seen this many times before, and thought it was worth a direct response.
I did not personally have a defining moment that made me reject religion. It was just that I eventually came to examine religion with the same logical tools I had to examine any tenet, as one does on maturing, and finding the question of God to be one without empirical evidence.
Would seeing Christians behaving in a good manner convince me that Christianity is true? No more than seeing good Hindus convince me of the divinity of the Hindu pantheon, good Jews of Jehovah but not Christian divinity, or good Buddhists of nirvana. Also, no more than seeing atheists do good deeds is evidence that there is no divine.
It’s a more logical position that those adherents who do evil disprove the existance of an omnibenevolent entity. I don’t accept either as logically valid, but that at least posits a valid question that stands up to casual scrutiny.
Now, there are many who left religion because something specific — often some perceived hypocricy — made them throw out their entire belief system to re-evaluate. In those cases, they may be kept in the fold. But you have to wonder, do you want to keep in those whose faith is essentially a matter of inertia, who would drop it if they took the time to examine it and had the will to deal with the reaction from others?
I’m an agnostic. I don’t think that I can view the divine question rationally and come up with any other defensible stance. However, I don’t believe that agnosticism either requires nor denies belief in a God. It’s entirely possible for me to believe in God, or believe he does not exist, so long as I acknowledge it’s not a rational belief.
Similarly, I have absolutely no issue with others who believe in any sort of belief system. However, when people attempt to project an inherently irrational system onto a logical framework that I take note.
Comment by: Nutrideath
42 03/19/06 5:36 AM | Comment Link |Ir wrote: Nutrideath, your argument seems to be “Hey - they’re not in my club! I know they say they are but they aren’t”.
With all due respect, you haven’t gotten away from the exclusive-club mentality which I think Jesus’ words in the gospels so strongly oppose.
This is a fair description of many churches and their leadership today. Would you agree? It’s this hypocrisy that turns so many to atheism.
Of course, it’s the people pretending to be in my club, who aren’t really in it, who are messing things up. Not the people in the club, no, that couldn’t be possible
Actually, one of the main reasons for the Bible is the “exclusive-club” described there. One of Jesus’ main teachings was that we have got to join. But, it is only “exclusive” to the point that there are some in, & some out. Anybody can join - its open to all humanity.
But there is an “entrance fee.” We have to live like Jesus taught us. For instance, Jesus said that his true followers would have an identifying mark:
Jesus requires his followers to have genuine love for one another & the rest of mankind. But what is the track record of many so-called Christian organizations? Even in modern times, they are at the forefront of wars & conflicts in which innocent blood has been spilled.
Nations claiming to be Christian took the lead in the slaughter of WWI & WWII. People on both sides of those conflicts claimed Christianity. Catholic killed Catholic, Baptist killed Baptist.
Even more recently, the atrocities & attempted genocide of Rwanda in 1994 was perpetrated, mainly, by “Christians.”
The may claim to be Christian, but their claim rings hollow. They have in reality rejected the teachings of Jesus, and do not display the genuine love that marks his true followers.
War is not a free pass to ignore his command. We have to obey Jesus rather than human governments when the two come into conflict.
Comment by: Nutrideath
43 03/19/06 5:38 AM | Comment Link |Sorry, I forgot to show that that last quote about Rwanda was from Desmond Tutu, a former Anglican bishop.
Comment by: Ir
44 03/19/06 11:53 AM | Comment Link |Hi Nutrideath,
All the churches I’ve been part of have taught that there’s a one-time entrance requirement and that is placing my faith in Jesus as my sin-bearer.
They’ve taught that the moment I do that the Holy Spirit will take up residence in my life and will produce such things in me as the love Jesus talked about in John 13:34-35. The love is not the entrance fee, nor are the various other things the Bible says followers of Jesus will do; those things are results of the work of the Holy Spirit in me.
So, I’m in the club forever once I’ve believed - according to what they teach. I just asked a Christian friend (by e-mail) if I’m still in it now and am curious to hear her reply.
Does what those churches teach match what you believe?
Comment by: Nutrideath
45 03/20/06 7:28 AM | Comment Link |No, not exactly. I’ve never thought the “once saved, always saved” doctrine holds much water, plus I believe there are about a hundred scriptures that show that a person can fall away.
I’ll try to stay away from quoting scripture, & just try an illustration: Our relationship with God is a personal one, so we can compare it with other personal relationships - like marriage.
Lets say you got married. On your wedding day your relationship with your husband is super strong, completely wonderful. You love him deeply & he truly loves you deeply in return.
But 10 years into the marriage, maybe things have cooled off. He tells you every morning that he loves you, but you begin to suspect otherwise. You find out he’s been having an affair with another woman where he works. (ack!)He finally decides to pack up & leave you.
Just because he truly loved you on your wedding day doesn’t mean the relationship today is not broken; neither does the fact that he mechanically tells you he loves you each morning.
Why would our relationship with God be different? Some “Christian” organizations teach once-saved, always-saved because it is comforting. Its all warm & fuzzy. “God ‘chose’ you! Nothing you can do can pull you away from God now!” But the Bible is full of examples of people who are in God’s favor, then not. One that comes to mind is Judas Iscariot — he was one of the 12 apostles! He was chosen by Jesus himself, and worked hand in hand with him for years! He obviously had God’s favor — until he turned away. It was his choice to make, & he made the wrong one.
To please God we have to find out what he requires of his true followers, and then bring our lives in line with that. If we make a mistake, he forgives. But if we choose to live otherwise — then we have made the choice to leave that “club.”
Comment by: Ir
46 03/20/06 9:01 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your response, Nutrideath.
That I can choose to walk away from God certainly matches the reality of my personal experience better than ‘once saved, always saved’.
The marriage one is quite a good one in that I feel as if I have opted for indefinite separation.
Comment by: Nutrideath
47 03/20/06 9:57 AM | Comment Link |And it sounds as if you’ve made an informed decision. It is yours to make.
But from your description it sounds as if you maybe still believe he exists at least. Do you?
Comment by: Ir
48 03/20/06 10:04 AM | Comment Link |I don’t think about God because I couldn’t find a view of God which seemed plausible any more.
I suppose I would say I think it’s unlikely that God exists a) in view of all the questions His existence raises which I haven’t found good answers to and b) because I haven’t found anything happening in my life or the world today for which I find “God exists” is the most plausible explanation.
Comment by: Nutrideath
49 03/21/06 10:28 AM | Comment Link |Ir, tell me more about a). What questions do the existence of God raise?
Comment by: Ir
50 03/21/06 4:54 PM | Comment Link |If God exists then
1) What is God like? I couldn’t answer that because everyone who believes in God seems to have a different view of what God is like?
2) How come Christians, who are being transformed into the likeness of Christ, according to the Bible, behave no better than anyone else, as best I can tell?
3) Why does God allow natural disasters to kill so many people?
4) Why didn’t God communicate in a way which enabled Christians to reach a consensus on what he said? Christians disagree on just about everything. Nutrideath, you say the Bible doesn’t teach eternal torment but most Bible-believing Christians I know are adamant that it does.
5) Why can’t I tell the difference between God talking to me and me talking to myself in my thoughts?
Ok, those are a few of the questions God’s existence raises. I think I have more but I don’t have a handy reference list of them which I can reproduce for you here.
Comment by: Nutrideath
51 03/22/06 12:57 PM | Comment Link |Hi Ir,
I just now saw your post. Your questions are deep. I don’t want to get too long winded here, so I’ll try to be as brief as I can. But here is my opinion (see? I’m learning ;) ) on a few of your questions:
1) This is a huge one. I’ll have to think on it a bit.
2) This one has already been turned into a complete thread of its own. You know that my opinion is that most people & groups claiming to be “Christian” are in reality no such thing, so I’ll leave it at that.
3) The issue of Universal Sovereignty. This issue was raised in Eden. God created everything, including the inanimate universe and all life. The life he created includes not only human, animal, & plant life on earth — it also includes billions of spirit creatures alive in heaven - angels.
These angels — like humans — were created with free will. One of these angels — since given the name Satan - rebelled against the rightful rulership of God. He did not challenge God’s power. He challenged God’s right to rule. He basically asked, “Just because you’re the most powerful, why should that automatically mean you’re the right one to rule all? Why should you be the one to determine what is right & wrong? Maybe I would do a better job.”
This was not an idle question. Satan got Adam & Eve to join in this rebellion, plus many other angels. Revelation speaks of him “dragging with him” one third of all the angelic sons of God. (Rev. 12:3, 4, 9)
So how would God put this issue to rest? He had the power to immediately destroy Satan & all of his followers. But doing that would only prove God was more powerful. The issue would remain. Maybe later another angel or human would rebel again. Imagine: Your neighbor begins spreading the lie that you abuse your young children. If you go next door with a gun & kill your neighbor, would that settle the question of whether you abuse your kids or not? No — as a matter of fact, people might begin to wonder if your dead neighbor was on to something.
So instead, God gave Satan somewhat free reign. (1 John 5:19) In essence, God said “Give it your best shot. Let’s see the results of what happens when you’re in control.” Again, the illustration of surgery: A young child needs their appendix removed. It will be painful for the child, but it must be done. The child may be too young to understand why their parent would allow them to experience such pain — but the parent understands the full picture. They know that the time of pain will be comparatively short, & once over the child will be forever out of danger from the appendix.
The operation began long ago. Satan has had that control now for over 6,000 years (remember when he tried to tempt Jesus with “all the nations of the world” about 2000 years ago? Jesus refused, but never challenged Satan’s ownership & right to give them to whom he chose.). We see the results. The world is full of hatred & war, famines (mostly caused by war), disease, crime & violence. The world reflects the personality of its ruler.
Until the issue is settled completely, God steps back & allows all the horrible things brought about by Satan’s rule. This is building a case, so to speak, against Satan. Once it has been settled beyond any doubt God will step in to remove Satan’s system & replace it with God’s rulership, his Kingdom.
It is not cruel or irresponsible of God to allow the terrible things we see today. They are not his fault, but Satan’s. And, that Kingdom will undo all the bad that Satan’s has wrought. Even the dead will be resurrected.
Sorry, this got long anyway. I’ll try to answer the last two at another time if you’re still interested.
Comment by: Ir
52 03/22/06 6:32 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your responses so far, Nutrideath. Yes, I’m interested in your response to the last two and also to 1) since you said you needed to think about it for a bit.
Comment by: Nutrideath
53 03/23/06 9:49 AM | Comment Link |My answer would be twofold. First:
We can’t be passively waiting for others to show us how to believe in God. We have to search for it, work hard for it. If you know for certain there is treasure buried in your back yard, it does you no good if you don’t go get the shovel and start digging. God expects us to work hard to understand. His Word is not complicated, but so few actually take the time to read it, rather than just going on just what they hear their preacher say. The Bible is the litmus test of it all.
Don’t accept anything without proving it to yourself in the Bible itself. Jesus himself told us that many would claim him, but not be true followers of his:
Comment by: Ir
54 03/23/06 11:16 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath, I’ve never been one to think “if the preacher says it, I believe it” and just accept what I was taught. I always looke up what I was taught to see if it seemed reasonable. I’ve studied topics that are controversial among Christians, reading the passages and reading how ‘both sides’ interpret them to see whose argument seems more faithful to the Bible text. I’ve been in a lot of Bible studies and I’ve also studied the Bible a fair amount on my own.
Somehow, at some point, my studying started to lead me into more questions than answers. Which brought me to the point of “maybe it’s not ‘God’s Word’ after all.”
Comment by: Carin Nel
55 03/30/06 7:10 PM | Comment Link |The answer to understanding the Word of God (Bible) is to ask God first, before you start reading (pray first) to reveal the Truth in the Word to you. The written word is called Logos in Greek = the letter, and the living Word is called Rhema in Greek. So ask God to make the logos Rhema to you through His Holy Spirit and He will lead you int the true meaning of His Word. If you honestly seek the Truth, you shall find it. We just don’t take it seriously enough to ask for God’s guidance, because we read the Bible with preconceived ideas and not with pen spirits.