Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.17.2006 /
As is our custom we will call an official break for the weekend. Of course you can continue to post comments on the blog but don’t look for any new posts until next Monday
Hemant will return with his surveys on his church experience over the weekend
Next week we will also introduce a Guest Blogger who will host the blog for a couple of days.
Leave a Reply
Comment by: Ir
1 03/17/06 3:06 PM | Comment Link |A couple of days sounds about right to me for a Guest Blogger - not too burdensome for them but enough time to get here and post what they want to, hopefully.
Have a good weekend, Jim!
Comment by: Cully
2 03/17/06 3:12 PM | Comment Link |Have a good weekend guys! I’ll be off building a set all weekend. Fun, huh?
Comment by: Esther
3 03/17/06 3:24 PM | Comment Link |Ir,
Thank you for answering my question.
You wouldn’t have imagined how your detailed and clear sharing of your view have enlightened my thinking lately!
I especially appreciate your objectiveness and honesty towards religion, faith, and life.
From what I’ve read so far (on this site), I have a question:
If God is not a god of exclusiveness and have an absolute standard,
If there may not be any final judgement,
If there may not be eternal heaven or hell,
Then, whether one believes in God or not is not relevant.
We can just get together and try our best to make this world a better place. (Doesn’t matter if you get the idea from Jesus, or Mohamand, or Spong, or who else. They will just serve as an inspirational source)
What do you think?
Comment by: Ir
4 03/17/06 7:17 PM | Comment Link |Hi Esther, I’m sorry - I don’t understand what you’re asking.
If atheists and followers of Jesus/Christians could agree on what makes the world a better place, then they could work together to make it a better place. But there are many ways in which they don’t agree.
Comment by: Esther
5 03/17/06 10:37 PM | Comment Link |Good question, Ir.
I can always count on you to help me clarify my thought. Thanks.
What I’m saying is:
There are a few possibilities of “the truth” of life.
1)If the truth is what the Christian community (that you and I have been there and heard of) has proclaimed, that there’s really eternal life, final judgement, and absolute standard and so on and so forth…, then I have to say what the “evangelical christians” are doing now does make sense. What’s left for us is whether we want to accept it or not.
2) If the truth is that there’s no God and we humans are on our own, then 2 choices (at least) we still need to make:
-We just do whatever we feel right to do because there’s no higher being to have the final say.
-Or we believe that somehow there’s an inner conscience that is just there within us. And we are urged to strive for justice, protect the oppressed, lessen the sufferings…in another words, help make this world a better place.
Yes, how can we make this world a better place?
We can have many different ideas.
What I’m suggesting is that actually the life of Jesus’s, be it true or not, even if we just read it as a legend, it does inspires us with some ideas.
For example: Jesus cared for all classes of people and especially paid attention to the deprived. He was compassionate and caring. He rebuked hyprocrecy. He choose to self-sacrifice in order to conquor evil…
These all could gave us inspirations on how to make this world a better place.
And of course there are many others who can inspire us the same.
My question actually is:
What does it matter if one believes in God or not, if there is no eternal salvation nor perishment? (which I’m not sure if there is or not)
I admire all of you of your intellectual level and how you present and articulate yourselves. I could follow your argument or thinking without any problem. But, I cannot articulate out my own thought like you did.
Thank you for bearing with me and help me to clarify my thinking.
Comment by: Eliza
6 03/18/06 1:41 AM | Comment Link |Hi Esther
There was an extended discussion on the topic of “making the world a better place” (MTWABP) on this site sometime in the last 5-10 days; I don’t remember which thread it was in. MTWABP turns out to be a deceptively simple idea, as not everyone agreed on what “a better place” would look like, and how it would be achieved. And this gets to your question above,
because the premise (the second “if” phrase) is believed/known to be false by some people posting here. In fact, if I understood the discussion correctly, exactly the opposite premise formed the basis for their view of how to MTWABP - by preparing the world for God’s rule even if it meant not acting in the here and now to provide concrete assistance to people in need (sorry if I’m misphrasing here or misrepresenting your prior comments, Nutri and others).
Comment by: Ir
7 03/18/06 5:02 AM | Comment Link |Hi Esther and Eliza,
Esther, I think the discussion Eliza is referring to is in this blog entry: Atheist becomes a Christian - sort of. Basically, the atheist wrote that he joined a church not because he believed in God but because the church wants to make the world a better place and he does also, so he wants to do it together with them.
Based on what you wrote, I think you would like that sort of a church, where making the world a better place is what it is all about, rather than individual belief. Not only that but in the sermons on their website, they use some of the words of Jesus (and I expect they use some of his actions also) as inspiration to make the world a better place, just as you mentioned it’s possible to do in your comments.
Many churches are not like that and many churches are deeply critical of any approach which prioritizes making the world a better place over trying to convince people to believe what they believe.
Atheists probably approve much more of that church the one atheist joined than churches which make sharing their beliefs (and moral values) the number one priority. Even so, atheists may not be 100% happy with such a church because they may think, why do we have to use anything in the Bible as our inspiration? Why not just make the world a better place based on what we all agree is better?
Anyway, as Eliza said, it is not easy to get atheists and Christians to agree on what making the world a better place means. I’m impressed with how TXatheist has been helping people in a practical way by working with a group of non-atheists. He has found one way to work together and make a piece of the world a better place and he is getting on and doing it.
I can think of things the Bible-believing churches I’ve been part of have done that atheists would consider ‘making the world a better place’, such as having tutoring programs that help children from poor neighborhoods academically at no cost. I daresay that the children being helped are invited to church programs too and perhaps atheists would object to that, suspecting that these children may be being manipulated into situations where they are coerced into sharing the church’s beliefs. Such churches, because of their beliefs, don’t give practical help without at least letting those being helped that they also offer spiritual help. But at least they do give some practical help in some way or other. In my experience they are not unaware of the importance of that.
For yourself, you might like to look for a church which makes that the number one priority, if you’re not already in one, because from what you wrote I don’t expect you’ll be very happy in a church where agreeing with their beliefs and moral values is number one.
Comment by: NCxian
8 03/18/06 5:21 AM | Comment Link |Esther:
I see your point and I think I have the same thoughts. In fact, that is the way I operate personally.
I say to myself, for numerous reasons (which are too long to enumerate unless somebody really wants to hear), I find myself to be a Christian and I am committed to that way of life. But to me that means, most importantly, that I follow a person whose life has been used by billions of people over 2000 years to demonstrate the “perfect” human being, a human being who is capable of all goodness. Whether he actually lived his life the way it is reported in the new testament (whether he actually lived!) is almost irrelevant at this point to me because we have refined this image over time and space to illustrate, as a community, what are the characteristics of human goodness–what is the best we are capable of. So, suppose at the moment of my death, I have a flash of inspiration and it is revealed to me that this life is all we have, that the material world is all there is, then what? Then I have spent my life trying to understand and follow what I believe is the most thoroughly thought-through example of human goodness I have access to. I don’t think I will have any regrets about having led my life that way, even if I have accepted a false premise (life of Jesus). That’s why I wonder if I can claim the designation “Christian humanist”. My faith is in Christ AND the potential in human beings for goodness and beauty.
Eliza: You are correct that there has been discussion on this board where a Christian suggested that preparing the world for God’s rule may be somehow detached from acting in the here and now to MTWABP. Many (millions of?) Christians find that point of view . . . uhm . . . misled. Actually, abhorrent. Heresy? Esther’s description of what Jesus’ life illustrated, and that this should be a model for us, is a widely held Christian viewpoint. But that view is not, as you can see from other posts, universally held.
I think there is some history in recent Christianity (last hundred years or so) that is useful. There was a surge in the Christian community in interest in pursuing social justice. Then there was a reaction to that (along the lines of “you people think we have to earn our way into heaven, but it’s faith alone”). These folks would call the others “Social Gospelers” and they wouldn’t mean that in a nice way! I think the latter folks are predecessors to many of the current evangelicals. But in the past decade, maybe longer, there has been a growing awareness of how false this dichotomy is, that the good news (”Gospel”) of Jesus that is supposed to be shared IS, in large part, social justice (that is, MTWBP). I can give links where you can kind of see this evolving, if there is of interest. (And let me quickly say that I think that Catholicism hasn’t succumbed to this knuckleheadedness to the extent we protestants have. Is that where you are coming from Esther?)
About holding a meeting at a church about MTWBP, I think that is certainly a good thought. I wonder if non-Christians would think it was a trap to get folks into church and then proseltyze (sp?). I believe Jim Henderson feels like they would be afraid to come and for good reason (they might well be subjected to a sales-pitch) which is why he does what he does on-line with Off the Map. But I will let him speak to that–sorry if that’s not right, Jim.
I guess where I come out on all this is that I think there are Christians and atheists whose primary purpose, stemming from whatever belief, is that we are here to MTWBP. I think TXAtheist and I agreed earlier that this was a perfect place for common ground. Not all Christians would be in. Nor, I assume, all atheists?
Comment by: NCxian
9 03/18/06 6:24 AM | Comment Link |I’ve reread that previous post and need to post a correction. (I’ve got to quit writing so early in the morning, it makes my posts way to long!)
I didn’t mean to sound disrespectful toward people who have devoted their lives to “saving other people’s souls”. The people I know personally who are like this are some of the kindest, most unselfish people that I know. They truly care whether, according to their understanding, people are going to get to heaven. I just don’t agree with their reading of what the good news is all about. I still love their hearts!
Comment by: Ir
10 03/18/06 7:40 AM | Comment Link |NCXian, thanks for that clarification - it was kind of you to say that and it has been my experience also.
I have also encountered some very kind and unselfish atheists on the internet, so I know that kind and unselfish people come in a variety of viewpoints, as it were.
I think that’s likely also. One of the churches I’ve been part of once had an outdoor service followed by refreshments and entertainment activities in a public park close to the church (they got permission from the local civic authorities). People who wouldn’t normally go to the church could wander in and out of the service - it was a relatively non-threatening way to let people see for themselves what the church was about. I think it would help if a MTWABP meeting was held somewhere other than inside the church; an outdoor venue does have the advantage that people can slip in and out as they please without their coming and going being noticed in the way it is when a meeting is inside a building with doors and walls.
Comment by: Esther
11 03/18/06 10:03 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Ir, Eliza, and NCxian for sharing your thoughts with me.
May I ask you another question:
How did some of the “Christians” decided that the task of us here on earth is NOT to “save as many souls as possible” but to bring social justice here and now?
What were their argument or conviction based on?
Eliza wrote: (She was quoting mine first)
What does it matter if one believes in God or not, if there is no eternal salvation nor perishment? [is this "punishment"?]
because the premise (the second “if” phrase) is believed/known to be false by some people posting here.
What led them to believe/known that this premise to be false?
NCxian,
I’m from the “we need to save as many souls as possible” evangelical camp of thought background. I agree totally with your compliments to these christians. But the church and Xians that surround me oppose to the “social gospel” movement.
Yes, as Ir has described, they (my church) would still help out in the community, but at the end, they would feel guilty or job not done if they have not led the people that they served to the saving grace.
Yes, I have many uneasy feeling with the “evangelical” camp of christians - I don’t like their montrous certainty, their subtle superior feeling of themselves, their judgemental attitude…
Yet, what I was battling inside is this:
How can we be sure that there’s no final judgement and that no matter if one believes in the one and only true God or not will end up the same as the others at the end?
Therefore, I’d like to explore the thinking of the ones (including all of you) who have made up their mind to just concentrate in MTWABP regardlessly.
Comment by: Ir
12 03/18/06 10:40 AM | Comment Link |Esther, I think this is what you’re asking:
I don’t think I believe what my church teaches, which is something like “only people who accept Jesus as their savior will go to heaven; everyone else no matter how kind and unselfish they are will go to hell”. But what if I’m wrong? How can I be sure they’re the ones who are wrong, not me?
Is that what you’re asking?
If it is then the Internet has lots of sites giving reasons why people think the message of your church is wrong. You can go to sites like the Secular Web and read the reasons. You can also read Christian sites and see how they defend their beliefs - or you can ask people at your church.
In the end you will need to decide “Whose arguments seem right to me?” Which is a decision only you can make for yourself.
Comment by: everett
13 03/18/06 10:47 AM | Comment Link |MTWABP-is a very interesting concept. i think every human on the earth should want this. The problem is how do we as a society do this? When one’s belief inteferes with another’s does this mean they are at odds? How do we as a society keep the peace so to speak? Do people break the laws yes no matter what religious affliation, nationality, sex? There are so many issues facing us today where do you start fixing the problems?Then again what are the problems? Open communication i think is a good start, education is another.What makes you tick ? what keeps you from breaking the laws everyday? Is it your faith in something? is it your conscious?
People use to come uyp to me and say you are honest, you have integrity, they said i had good christian values, i never told them i went to church or what affiliation i grew up under. they knew something was different about me though. guess all i am trying to say i guess all we can do is our best in any given situation.
Comment by: NCxian
14 03/18/06 12:23 PM | Comment Link |Daz:
I am looking up some stuff to respond to Esther regarding how Christians who focus on social justice support that position. I haven’t figured out just what to say about that yet, (still working on it, Esther) . . .
But I did come across something that I thought contributed to one of your questions–Why are we, who are so materially wealthy, unhappy? In a book called FAITH WORKS by Jim Wallis (a Christian who focuses on social justice). He quotes the following deadly sins, as enumerated by Mahatma Ghandhi.
1. Politics without principle
2. Wealth without work
3. Commerce without morality
4. Pleasure with conscience
5. Education without character
6. Science without humanity
7. Worship without sacrifice
Wallis goes on to say that the things Ghandhi warns against have become a way of life in the culture we live in. So I guess he would say we are unhappy because we are poisoning ourselves as above. Do you think?
Comment by: Denigma
15 03/18/06 12:30 PM | Comment Link |I think the trap in placing a higher priority on “we need to save their souls first and foremost” than MTWABP (haha who came up with this acronym?) is when the former begins to blind ppl to the latter. This is a very harsh and, I would hope, one-time-occurring example, but about 2-3 months after the 2004 tsunami hit, there was an article released. It wasn’t too widely distributed, and even less so in the U.S.
Basically, a group of nuns and Xtian volunteers drove an aid truck into an Indian village suffering from the tsunami. Before distributing the supplies, they insisted that the Hindu inhabitants accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. The villagers got angry and attempted to storm the truck, at which point the volunteers got scared and drove off, having distributed none of the supplies.
Like i said, this is a very extreme example, but the point I’m trying to make is that it can happen, if someone believes it is more important to save and convert than offer succor. They may not even be aware that they’re doing it, if it happens in small circumstances. Such as, they may be inclined more to volunteer/send $$ to a charity or organization that is already well funded and say, painting playgrounds, if that org is focused on their religious bent. Meanwhile, a charity/org that is not their religion/denomination that is sorely underfunded and is helping refugee children may be the shaft. Again, a crazy example, but jus tryin to make my point.
Comment by: Eliza
16 03/18/06 1:15 PM | Comment Link |NCxian - thanks for clarifying (in #8) the impression I left (in #6) that I meant all Christians - my bad for not making that clear. Thanks too for the list from Ghandi via Wallis in #14 - wow that describes alot of modern culture, esp. in US.
Denigma - Most of the do-good organizations I give to are Christian, just because that’s how a large proportion of such organizations got started. The ones I give to vary in how overt their message is to donors and, I presume, to recipients of their efforts. Obviously, I’m most comfortable with the groups that do good with my money but don’t come back at me with a blast of god-talk. It’s interesting how many of these groups assume that people who donate to them are Christians. I laugh and think, oh if only they knew!
Here’s a dilemma. The organization in my city which offers by far the most complete services for homeless people (living space, 3 meals a day, addiction recovery services, respite beds for those who are ill, assistance in preparing for and obtaining jobs, etc, for individuals and families) is faith-based and requires their clients to participate in religious activities. My understanding, from talking with social workers in town, is that clients have to leave if they don’t at least pretend to be receptive. I struggle with whether or not to donate to this group. On the one hand, they provide more concrete assistance than any other shelter/group in the city. On the other hand, their help comes with strings attached. I figure the potential benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and anyone so inclined can decide whether they want to listen (or pretend to listen) if the concrete benefits are worth it to them, given the awfulness of the alternatives all of them face. (But I donate via cashier’s checks, totally anonymously, so the organization can’t put me on their mailing list.) What would you do?
Comment by: everett
17 03/18/06 1:21 PM | Comment Link |you make a very good point. Denigma.Christians some times lose their focus. by following these blogs maybe we can refocus our priorites to the right/correct ones.
Comment by: Esther
18 03/18/06 1:56 PM | Comment Link |Yes, Denigma,
What you said is exectly what I’m angry at. They are not extreme examples in the surrounding I’m at right now. They are very common school of thought and practice among the Xian community I’m with and they see no problem with it!
However, my dilemma is: I still cannot see a “middle ground”.
If the “truth” is really how these Xians interpreted from the Bible, then somehow I can see why they act so “ridiculously and wierdly”.
It kind of make sense from their perspective.
How can a person on one hand believes that everyone only have this life time to turn to God and receive the salvation of Jesus, otherwise will “go to hell” forever; yet can still focus just on MTWABP here & now without persuading any non-believer to believe?
Therefore, if I choose to just concentrate my effort in MTWABP here & now, it seems that I’ll have to cast away that part of the believe.
Does any Xians out there believe there’s a middle ground to it? I’d like to know the rationale behind yours.
Yes, Ir, I know that at the end, it’s my own decision. I am now gathering information for myself to make that choice.
(NCxian, I appreciate your help and am anxiously looking forward to your reply. Take your time, though)
Ir, I wonder if I may ask you another kinda personal question?
I don’t know if you would mind me asking you these kind of question? If you do, just let me know.
I guess why I ask is I found that my experience and thinking is very close to yours, that’s why I want to / or I’m very curious to understand you more.
(Maybe all of them - Siamang, TXatheist, Ron, NCxian, Tom, Florence…also had similar experience or journey as Ir’s, just that they did not expressed it as clearly as you did, Ir. So, anyone is welcome to response also.)
My question is:
It seems to me that you have already made up your mind that you want to live your life without thinking of (or have any relationship with) God.
Then, howcome you are still (seems to me) very interested in the religious circle - what is happening there? What are they thinking? etc,etc.
I get this impression by your deep knowledge of all the different theologies, societies, and web-sites related to this realm. (I did check on the “open theology” info you mentioned in another blog)
I mean: if you decided that all these beliefs in God have too much contradictions and problems and you do not buy any of those, why still bother to know what’s going on with their thinking?
Why not just move on with your life?
Comment by: Eliza
19 03/18/06 2:26 PM | Comment Link |Esther,
Learning why people believe what they do, so I can better understand where they’re coming from and why/how/where we disagree, so that I can better talk with people I normally try to avoid (because my past experience is that I “pass” as Christian because I’m nice & ethical etc etc but if it slips that I’m not then too many times someone very helpfully but annoyingly feels they have to convert me & that’s the end of any degree of comfort talking with them), so that we can find common ground (if not middle ground) & common goals, so that I can figure out how to MTWABP with others (because, aside from Mother Teresa, few of us make much impact on our own), is “moving on with my life”. (Jim’s love of parenthetical comments is contagious, I guess!) I’m far more interested in this type of conversation than I would have been 10 or 20 years ago, as I move on with and through my life. Also, I’m whatcha call a lifelong learner, just can’t get enough. So, that’s my reason for reading this site late into the night and on weekends. I’m sure others have other reasons & explanations.
Comment by: Esther
20 03/18/06 2:35 PM | Comment Link |Thanks, Eliza.
Comment by: Ir
21 03/18/06 3:00 PM | Comment Link |Hi Esther,
I still feel in transition; I only just stopped going to church a few months ago. I feel like I’ve never really had an opportunity to air what concerns me about
Comment by: Ir
22 03/18/06 3:13 PM | Comment Link |oops…I accidently submitted the above…continuing here -
I’ve never really had an opportunity to air what concerns me about Christianity/Christians but I do here, so that’s one thing that draws me here - it’s a chance to respectfully discuss those things with Christians willing to discuss them.
Most of what I know I learned during my years of being a Christian - it’s still there. I tend to be interested in lots of things; Christian issues are just one thing I’m interested in. I’m interested in an intellectual sense in how Christians try to resolve what the Bible teaches, with theories such as Open Theism.
I want to move on with my life but the reality of my life is that I’m in transition and I have Christian friends and I haven’t even told all of them of my change in belief. I think I am moving forward - it just takes time!
Comment by: Eliza
23 03/18/06 3:31 PM | Comment Link |Ir, Esther, and others who have left a church or openly aired change in beliefs - what reactions have you had from friends and fellow church members when you made your new line of thought known? Or what reactions do you anticipate when they find out? Do/will they try to talk you out of it, pray for you, shun you?
Comment by: NCxian
24 03/18/06 3:52 PM | Comment Link |Esther:
I am hard-pressed to figure out how to succintly put a response to your questions. I have a friend who is a counselor who says that, in communication styles, some people are “pointers” and some people are “painters”. Pointers know what point they want to make and make it. Painters have to paint you a picture. I am an EXTREME painter, so bear with me.
It seems to me that you have been a part of a Christian community that highly values certainty. Perhaps your personal preference is that you also are more comfortable with certainty. So those two things together make it hard for you to imagine a Christianity that is willing to muck around in the middle ground.
But I believe there is such a Christianity. It is a Christianity that takes to heart Paul’s point that the human condition is such that we see only “as in a mirror, dimly”. (There is absolute truth, that we will see one day, but none of us has seen it yet.) Your pastor would counter that with something about God is going to spit me out, because I’m neither hot nor cold. And he would say that I lack confidence. But this is my sermon. :) I would say that I hold my beliefs with humility.
When “picking and choosing” my scriptures, I choose Micah 6:8, “and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” And Matthew 25:40 “just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me”.
I have been trying to say what I personally think. I believe I am not alone in being in this position. I could recommend books or, perhaps, websites that would send you to others who think like me, if you like.
If you are interested in what your folks would call my “testimony”, I would refer you to my earlier comment # 8. That would surely get me kicked out of your congregation, wouldn’t it? It hasn’t gotten me kicked out of mine. I am eternally grateful to them for that.
I am also grateful to you for the questions, which have helped me think about this sort of thing. I normally “just move on with my life”!
Comment by: Ir
25 03/18/06 4:43 PM | Comment Link |Eliza, I haven’t told that many people yet. I have told a few of my closer Christian friends and I have to say they have really been wonderful about it; any fears I had weren’t justified. They would like me to return to my former faith but they haven’t been at all obnoxious about it. They’ve asked me good questions and listened thoughtfully to my answers. And said they want to stay friends and to please keep in touch since they aren’t seeing me at church/Bible study.
I’m married to someone who was ok with me being a Christian and is ok with me being an atheist - so suffice it to say it has not been a problem in my marriage.
I haven’t run into anyone yet who has been nasty about it. But I think I will avoid discussing it on the Internet with Christians who are strangers (apart from here) because it’s likely to lead to an argument over whether I was a real Christian, which would be frustrating and a waste of time.
If I run into casual acquaintances from church and they ask me whether I’m still going, I’ve been saying “I’m taking a break” without saying why. So I haven’t got completely honest with everyone yet. I decided a while ago that honesty is best but some situations make honesty hard for reasons that really have nothing to do with me and in those situations I don’t have to make life really hard for myself by having some personal rule that I must disclose everything. I try not to lie but the whole truth is a privilege I reserve for those who truly care and can truly listen.
NCXian, when I cared more what the Bible said Micah 6:8 was one of my favorite verses.
Comment by: Esther
26 03/18/06 6:22 PM | Comment Link |Thank you once again, Ir, Eliza, & NCxian.
Seems like there are only 4 of us who still have time to sit in front of our PC during this weekend :-)
I especially appreciate Ir for so sincerely share your stage in life with us.
And I’m glad that you get a chance to so freely aired your thinking here. (Just when you most needed it)
NCxian, I think I actually am a painter and love other painter, too. The reason why I appear to be a “black & white” kind of person is because I’ve been brainwashed for more than 30 years!
(I’ve shared some of my background in another blog which already in the previous page - Atheist pastor - the last entry)
Eliza, I am not even at the stage Ir is at. Before I came to this site (or before this “Atheist sell his soul” thing ever happened), I was just in tremendous doubt.
I have expressed my complaint about what the Church have done or not done. I found that most of the christians agree with my feeling but don’t know what to do with the situation. They have been so used to the old way of conducting their christian lives. Lacking teaching and leadership is definitely another reality.
The problem is that right now they still think that for the most “fundamental” part of our belief, I’m still with them. (They are very easily to assume that because of my background)
I have for a couple of times voiced out my doubt on whether “salvation” is really as narrow as we thought. The reaction I got was a lot of argument in return from one sister. Another reaction was like the idea was too far off that he didn’t know how to handle it.
I actually have not come to the conclusion of that I don’t believe anything about God. I’m still open and searching. However, by just voicing out my view on how we should treat homosexual people, or how we should review and change our attitude… I could sensed that they are uneasy with my thought.
But, maybe it is a necessary process in breaking their “closed” belief system.
That’s why I feel that I can gain progress with my own thinking by reading all your posts like ten times faster than on my own before.
NCxian, yes, I’d love for you to give me more resources to read.
Thank you all.
Comment by: Denigma
27 03/18/06 6:59 PM | Comment Link |Make that 5!! Haha at least for a lil bit, before i have to get back to the books. I would jus like to say that the last ten posts or so really opened my eyes to something I’d never considered before.
Growing up, my exposure to Christianity was mainly either the guy on the soapbox telling me I’d goto hell, or the ones on TV, whether politicians or faith-healers or etc. I never stopped to think that maybe not all were zealots and fundamentalists, or how much it could affect someone’s life should they begin to deviate or question their church/community/beliefs/etc. For that alone to mull over, I thank you all for your posts.
Comment by: skikid
28 03/18/06 7:57 PM | Comment Link |Amazing posts guys! I just got off a plane and am now in a hotel with wifi! From what I have read I am in the same ‘camp’ so to speak as NCxian.
My upbringing was much the same as Denigma’s. Somewhere I got it into my head that all churchs were like what I saw on TV or heard in the news. I cant even begin to tell you what it was like to discover that they werent. I think it was my desire to MTWABP that brought me to church. I, like, Ir think that I am in a state of transition. I am ok with that, I would be ok if it never ended and I spent the rest of my life searching and exploring.
These posts have been great to read all!
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
29 03/18/06 9:34 PM | Comment Link |Esther, Your issue with saving souls vs. MTWABP reminds me of the movie “End of the Spear”. Since this was very popular in Christian circles when it came out, I would be that a lot of people at your church saw it and liked it. I that movie, the missionaries were trying to save the souls of the tribe, but they also rendered aid to them and their enemies in the form of medicine and treatment to fight disease (MWTABP). The movie did not depict “conversion” as a prerequisite for receiving treatment. This may a good way to start this conversation with some of your Christian friends.
I don’t know if there is an afterlife, but it does not really matter to me because I did not become a Christian to get “afterlife insurance”. Getting in touch with God during this life was my main motivation.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
30 03/18/06 11:49 PM | Comment Link |I can’t stay to visit and converse, but I just ran across something that might be a thought provoker for my friends here — on both sides of the divide. And it makes a point that is as current as the discussions here, but that has been recognized as true for a very long time. I’m sorry I can’t stay to chat, but for whatever it may be worth:
“… it be a certain truth, that none can understand [the prophets' and apostles'] writings aright, without the same Spirit by which they were written.
… The Journal of George Fox (1624-1691)
Hope y’all are having a good weekend.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Esther
31 03/19/06 12:03 AM | Comment Link |Tom
I appreciate you dropping by.
But I do not understand the qoute.
Can you explain it in English when you have time? :-)
Or, can anyone who understood explain to me?
Comment by: NCxian
32 03/19/06 4:50 AM | Comment Link |Bruce: I have a friend who calls it “fire insurance” :)
Comment by: Ir
33 03/19/06 6:28 AM | Comment Link |I think Tom’s quote means that a person needs the Spirit of God to understand the Bible.
Tom, I have questions about that:
During those 15 years when I went to church and Bible studies and trusted Jesus and talked to Jesus and believed the Bible was the Word of God, did I have the Spirit? The Bible in 1 Cor 12:3 states: no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. I said “Jesus is Lord” and I believed it.
Did I have the Spirit then? Do I still have it, now I have stopped praying and studying the Bible and going to church and now I am unconvinced of the truth of what the Bible says?
Comment by: Ir
34 03/19/06 6:38 AM | Comment Link |Esther, I was thinking about how I can explain my position to you more.
Suppose about 20 years ago I heard about a product and bought it, because I was impressed by the claims it made. I followed the instructions and I was pleased with the results, for a long time - say, 15 years.
But after about 15 years I began to wonder things like: How do I know this works? How do I know that the good things that have happened are because I use this product? Maybe they would have happened anyway. How do I know it doesn’t have side-effects that I wouldn’t have if I wasn’t using it? How do I know that it doesn’t work by doing things I don’t want it to do (like for example, if I had a broken leg I would rather have my leg set so it could heal than just take pain medication and never have it heal, even though pain medication would resolve the immediate issue of the pain of my broken leg)
I figured the only way to find out was to take the product back and see what happened.
I did that and so far the results have seemed to indicate that my life goes just fine without the product. Not only that but now I see it did have some side-effects I was unaware of that I’m glad to be free of.
As far as moving on: I still like to look at the products because who knows? Maybe there will be one I didn’t know about - a new one, perhaps - that really does work and is worth using. At this point in time I see problems with all of the products I know of so I’m not using any of them. And I have no plans to return to using something I see problems with, given that I don’t see problems with not using them.
The product is Christianity/my Christian faith/my Christian life.
I apologize to the Christians/follower of Jesus here if they find the ‘product’ analogy offensive. It really is the best one I can think of. (And I don’t think it’s entirely unreasonable because evangelism is very much like a sales pitch)
Comment by: skikid
35 03/19/06 7:04 AM | Comment Link |Ir
I think it is an interesting way gaining a better understanding of your prespective.
Comment by: Ir
36 03/19/06 7:18 AM | Comment Link |Thanks skikid.
Comment by: skikid
37 03/19/06 7:45 AM | Comment Link |Have a great day y’all… I am out on a whirl wind tour of the SW United States with the fam. dont know when Ill have internet next so catch ya later.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
38 03/19/06 9:55 AM | Comment Link |You have every right to analyze it as a “product” until those who “pitch it” determine to get out of the religion consumer marketplace which is where Evangelical C has been firmly entrenched for the past 30 years.
Comment by: Esther
39 03/19/06 10:11 AM | Comment Link |Ir,
Words cannot express enough my heartfelt appreciation for you. I’m very touched by your willingness to share and explain to me about your experience. (I wish that we could be “real” friend!)
My heart is still, very close to yours. But, I guess I still haven’t have the braveness to
“give back the product and see how it goes without it.”
Yet, you have given me a very new insight.
It is something like:
If I’m having that many doubts and trouble with the product despite the nice and good side of it. (I think both of us don’t want to totally dis-credit the product) Still half-clinging onto it but keep on having bitterness or negative feeling with it is un-healthy.
Why not for the moment, just get rid of it completely and see how it goes?
I see this not a dis-respect to God (if there’s one). It is just what is true to our hearts and the best we can cope with the situation.
Tom
About the “holy-spirit” guilding in reading the Bible, I agree with Ir.
10 people can claim that they all have the guilding of the HS and read the Bible. They can come up with 10 different perspectives. Which one is from the HS?
As a matter of fact, I now can re-read the Bible with my true heart and I’m just planning to do so. Before, because of my bitterness, everytime I try to read the Bible, I could not get anything but the teaching I’ve been received from Church which I am having trouble accepting. But now, you guys have helped me to be able to release from that bondage!
For this, I’m deeply grateful! (I guess to God, too.)
Ir, I don’t know where you live. I’m going to the - Seattle - Off the Map Conference this November, I truly hope that I can meet with you there. Right now, Off the Map is the only Jesus followers’ group I’m comfortable with :-)
I have a full-packed day today.
Won’t be back til’ very late.
Comment by: Ir
40 03/19/06 12:10 PM | Comment Link |Hi Esther,
I’m not near Seattle and I don’t expect it will be logistically possible for me to attend the conference.
Here’s a clue about the general area where I live: when I was attending church regularly I visited two of the churches Hemant has visited and surveyed.
I’m glad this site is helping you let go of bitterness.
Esther this is a very good description of what happened to me. When I ‘took the product back to the store’ I did what I needed to do. And if God exists and is all that my Christian friends say he is, he surely understands that!
Comment by: Ir
41 03/19/06 12:30 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your response, Jim.
When I told one of the salespeople I was returning the product, I hoped he would show an interest in why I was doing so. I’m sure I would have wanted to know why if someone returned something I sold them. I’d want to know if I was selling a defective product. I’d want to improve it if that were possible, or if not, go sell a competing product that already was better.
But - he didn’t show any of that sort of interest. He warned me of the dangers of life without his product; he said he thought I was making a mistake. He recommended I keep buying it even if I thought it was useless in case I was wrong (!)
The closest I felt we came to understanding was when he said that people do what brings life to them and if I wasn’t finding ‘life’ through use of his product he could see why I wasn’t interested in it.
Not that it is his product per se. His job is to sell it and try to keep the regular customers happy.
I disregarded his suggestion to keep buying it just in case it was worth it, even though I didn’t think it was. I need to spend my resources as wisely as I can and spending them on things which seem useless just in case they aren’t doesn’t seem wise to me.
Comment by: Shecie
42 03/19/06 12:34 PM | Comment Link |Can we extend an invitation to our church to Hemanes? I think it would be well worth it to come to the church I attend. I’d be glad to explain if he would be interested…
Comment by: Shecie
43 03/19/06 12:38 PM | Comment Link |Correction: Sorry, I meant Hemant
Comment by: Ir
44 03/19/06 1:01 PM | Comment Link |What kind of church do you go to, Shecie?
Comment by: Eliza
45 03/19/06 2:18 PM | Comment Link |Ir, your product analogy (and extension to the sales pitch) is really interesting. Thank you for sharing so much of your experiences & thoughts. And I mean that in a non-weepy, soft, old woman way. ;)
Comment by: Ir
46 03/19/06 3:06 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Eliza! I’m enjoying reading your thoughts too. :)
Comment by: Cully
47 03/19/06 6:16 PM | Comment Link |Can we get the “Recent Comments” box back on the right hand menu please? It was very useful for following the threads.
Comment by: Ir
48 03/19/06 6:30 PM | Comment Link |Yes, I liked ‘recent comments’ too!
Comment by: NCxian
49 03/19/06 6:59 PM | Comment Link |Esther:
If you are interested in seeing that some Christians focus in large part on MTWABP, I would recommend you google Ron Sider (Evangelicals for Social Action), Jim Wallis (Sojourners and Call to Renewal), or Tony Compolo. These are all evangelicals and hold to orthodox beliefs. And they have committed their lives to social justice for a long time. I thought they might be particularly interesting to you because they would be folks that your own congregation might find trustworthy. You can also find lots of newer folks, and plenty of Catholic sites that focus on social justice, by doing your own search.
I would also recommend a book I am now reading for the second time call “A Generous Orthodoxy”. It is by Brian McLaren. If you want a preview of Brian McLaren’s thought, you can go to Off the Map (Oh wait, that’s where we are!) and click on some of his columns or the videos are really good. The video that is shown in the margin on this page is just a promotional thing for Off the Map, which is good and useful but probably won’t tell you much about McLaren, so pick another one. Then if you like what you read/hear you can spring for the book. I would warn you that the book, at least in its hard-back edition, has teeny print!
Hope this helps!
Comment by: Esther
50 03/20/06 10:19 AM | Comment Link |NCxian,
Really appreciate your help.
I’ll definitely go on all those sites you reccommended.
Hopefully I’ll get a chance to let you know what I came up with after getting all those input.
As for pastor Brian McLaren, I’ve read his book,”A New Kind of Christian” a few years ago (Maybe 2003 or 2004). That book has shed so much light on me… I cannot explain how much help I got from reading that book!
Coincidently (Sometimes you really wonder if it’s really coincident or leading by the high power?), I learnt of the conference OTM was holding last Nov. The theme was “Generous othodoxy” and the main speaker was Brian McLaren!!!
Of course I went. And that’s how I’ve met Brian and Jim in-person. I bought more books at the conference and have had McLaren signed on one of his book, “Church on the other side”. :-)
(I do not get any promotion fee from OTM) :-)
I still love to let you all know that the annual conference OTM is holding has 2 locations. One on the East Coast and one on the West Coast. Last year the East Coast one was in Washington, DC @ beginning of October. (I’m not sure if it’ll be the same this year?)
As for the West Coast one. I know for sure it’ll be the first weekend of Nov. held in Seattle.
Okay, folks. There have been accumulated web-sites and books for me to emmerge right now PLUS I have to get back to my “other” life.
I may check in to read as it is SO tempting. But I won’t spend this much time engaging.
Bless yo’all.