Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.19.2006 /
From Comment # 4 Where Did I Go today
“I’ve been so taken by what you and Jim Henderson are doing that I titled my sermon today “Where’s Hemant?”! I started my message saying that my title is unique in the history of Christianity and I think I was right! In the introduction I talked about how there’s kind of a spiritual “Where’s Waldo” going on in the Chicago suburbs where Christians are trying to guess where you’re going to show up next and scanning their congregations carefully for your presence.”
Jim Wants to Know…
Why are Christians (like our pastor friend) so interested in this story? Is it something about the word “atheist”? I am really surprised at the level of intrigue this story is garnering.
And why are atheists wasting time on this blog? There must be a ton of blogs where you can go and interact with Christians - why do you keep coming back here? help me get it?
Leave a Reply
Comment by: Ir
1 03/20/06 4:00 AM | Comment Link |I’d be interested to know as well. I’m not a pastor but I have observed that the preaching pastors in the churches I’ve been in like to pick up on news items which have to do with belief. It helps make their sermons current and relevant and interesting. So I’m not surprised to hear that they’re commenting on the ‘ebay atheist’.
I suspect that some of those who mention the ‘ebay atheist’ will do it in a fairly superficial way which doesn’t get into the profound issues OTM is trying to address. They may even say the sorts of things that OTM is trying to help followers of Jesus not to say. But perhaps a few will take a deeper look at what OTM wants to achieve and learn from it and take some steps of their own which parallel OTM’s mission to ‘help Christians be normal’.
I know, I know, I ask myself that every day! ;)
Because I’m heard here. Because I’ve been able to ask my questions and I didn’t get banned for doing so.
Because the Christians/followers of Jesus here actually seem to care about where I am and how I got here and I’m afraid that’s not what I’d find elsewhere.
Because I’m not interested in being told that I’m wrong, or that I’m disappointing God, or that I’m in danger of hell.
Because I don’t like debate, because in my experience it goes nowhere. There is some debate here (perhaps it’s inevitable and perhaps people need to be able to ‘go there’ to some extent, as long as it doesn’t take over the blog) but along with it people are showing a genuine desire to learn about other viewpoints and understand why other people hold them.
Because Jim seems to have a lot of the same questions I have even though he still believes; and because he says things like “I don’t know” and “I’m sorry”. (When I was at church my senior pastor did sometimes say those things too - otherwise I probably wouldn’t have been there as long as I was)
Because I like reading whatever Hemant writes and I find the comments of many other people here very interesting also.
Lastly, because I can’t call this a Christian site and get away with it :)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
2 03/20/06 5:13 AM | Comment Link |I can tell you that pastors in churches like the one I serve in are very interested in finding out what the real issues are with atheists, and anybody who doesn’t believe. Our church is unashamedly seeker-sensitive. We craft our weekend services for that purpose, and this dialog is very helpful. A lot of the questions we think that non-believers ask are questions thay’er NOT asking, and the questions they ARE asking are different than we suppose.
It’s a great learning experience.
Comment by: Ir
3 03/20/06 5:25 AM | Comment Link |Peter, could you elaborate with some examples of a) what your church thought atheists are asking that they aren’t asking and b) what atheists are asking that you didn’t realize they are asking?
Comment by: TXatheist
4 03/20/06 5:56 AM | Comment Link |I want them to understand atheism is why I am not wasting my time:) If some can agree to disagree but understand us and peer into why we don’t believe I find that a great accomplishment.
Atheism to a pastor is probably a topic they never really addressed with the congregation and it’s relevant to today. Most people see Michael Newdow and wonder his motives. Curiousity is a wonderful emotion.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
5 03/20/06 6:00 AM | Comment Link |It’s not my church per se, but Christians in general. For instance, too many Christians I’ve known base all their “arguments” with unbelievers on Bible passages. Well, that is kinda fruitless (although I know they often just believe that “the word does not go out void” and maybe that’s true). If you don’t believe the Bible is true, why should I start quoting you passages from it to “prove” it is? It’s pointless. Virtually every Christian I know who has had any meaningful contact with atheistsf has started with this mistaken assumption. Simply put, don’t use the Bible to prove the Bible is true to someone who believes it isn’t! Common sense!
I think that atheists who have come out of the church have often been hurt by it, either when they were there, or when they left. But, if they are thinking people, like virtually all the fine folks on this blog have been, they are not asking “questions” at all. (Perhaps I mis-spoke earlier, I did just get up.) So when we start to address the questions of atheists, I think we are normally just projecting questions we’ve had or have.
To me, from what I’ve learned, most of you who are atheists, and I’m talking about those who’ve come out of the church and their relationship to Xianity –not other world religions–, simply doubt or discount the veracity of the Bible, as well as the historical Jesus, and even if you accept that the Bible might not be total fiction and there actually was a man named Jesus, discount the resurrection. Check me and my fellow believers on this if I’m wrong about my conclusions. (But be gentle with me, please…I’m just a human boy child…) ;-)
I think it’s very telling (somebody correct me if I’m wrong) that I haven’t yet encountered someone who came out of Xianity and “deconverted” to atheism who had had a positive experience in the church, though.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6 03/20/06 6:03 AM | Comment Link |TX - I like this
“Curiousity is a wonderful emotion”
Comment by: Ir
7 03/20/06 6:23 AM | Comment Link |Hi Peter,
I would slightly amend what you wrote to “every Christian I know who has had any meaningful contact with atheists has done so because they realized they needed to renounce this mistaken assumption”. :)
Comment by: TXatheist
8 03/20/06 6:26 AM | Comment Link |Peter,
I saw both good and bad people while xian. Mostly good. I have seen many friendly people at UU and some who act snooty. People will all be different but if UU started saying we must all bow to Allah or Jesus or Shiva tomorrow I’d be out of there. Long story, short version. When I moved to TX a coworker invited me to play weekly volleyball. I did and the 3rd week some new guy showed up and kept hounding me to come to church. I always blew him off but he started being more and more vocal about me not attending church so I stopped playing vball with them. One dude out of 25 irritated me. Not a bad statistic:)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9 03/20/06 6:42 AM | Comment Link |TX Tells this story
I am familiar with TX version (and for me this approach borders on Amway) but there are just as many if not more people for whom this “approach” works .
I am not asking if “sports evangelism” works or is “acceptable” (those who do it will continue doing it with or without our approval)
I am asking why does what doesn’t work for TX work for many others?
I am not looking for the ususal they are all stupid, uninformed, lonley or pre disposed - that would be like saying the same thing about atheists.
Comment by: Cully
10 03/20/06 6:43 AM | Comment Link |Are there a ton of other websites where I could go to interact with Christians? Yes… and I used to do that, back when I was more militant and in the mood to pick fights. I had a couple friend who would go with me to chat rooms to “tag team” the Christians we would find there, baiting them into argument. Thankfully I’ve outgrown that.
My every day dealings are not with Christians. No one in my immediate family is involved with the church. I work in an industry that is… liberal… to say the least. I have a few friends who consider themselves “spiritual” and who believe in a higher power, but none of them are active in a church. The irony of all this is that the church seems to be dictating, through Christians in government, a lot of how I live, so I want to understand it. My personal search through the church, while ultimately leading me out of it, was still a very large part of my life for a long time and I like discussing that path.
Why here specifically? I’ve been posting here for about a month, and came out as homosexual about two weeks ago. No one yet has condemned me to hell, either for that or for generally being and atheist. No one has tried to convert me. I haven’t even really had to raise my “voice” during this conversation. I’ve been a touch irritated here and there, and rolled my eyes quite a bit, but for the most part everyone has been genial and welcoming. I appreciate that.
Comment by: Cully
11 03/20/06 6:58 AM | Comment Link |Peter said:
Peter… Cully… nice to meet you. Now you’ve met someone who had a positive church experience and still left. I’ve told my story here before, but the short version is that I started Christian life as a Baptist, and 17 years later ended it as a Pentecostal. The steps in between were a series of churches that were progressively more fundamentalist. That series of churches, and their fundamentalism served to bring the church into sharper and sharper relief for me. I’ve likened it to a microscope before, Baptist being like the naked eye, and Pentecostalism like an electron microscope. The deeper I looked the more the cracks started to show. I left the church first, not Christianity. I sought a solo path to God for several years afterwards.
I won’t say that every experience I had was perfect, I met people who faked speaking in tongues, and a minister who was clearly attempting to form a cult, (I left that church quickly) not o mention the general assortment of hypocrites and trouble makers. But over all my life in religion was pretty positive. I even considered seminary for a while.
Comment by: Jayson B.
12 03/20/06 7:14 AM | Comment Link |Please don’t take this the wrong way, but maybe the reason wy it doesn’t work for TX, and for all of us atheists, is the very reason that you will never be able to accept: that maybe we’re right.
Cully,
You’re brave. Congratulations on coming out, I know for all of my homosexual friends it was quite a weight off their shoulders. Funny thing is, being an atheist is more of a sin in the eyes of god than being a homosexual :)
Comment by: Jayson B.
13 03/20/06 7:14 AM | Comment Link |But they let us atheists marry :)
(sorry, hit the enter button by accident)
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
14 03/20/06 7:24 AM | Comment Link |I love this diablog because I was a non-believer most of my life until the past two years. I have been attending church with my Christian wife for around 16 years though and felt like an outsider most of that time. I understand a lot of the thoughts and feelings that non-believers have, especially toward churches and some believers. I see this as an opportunity to share with others on both ends of the spectrum of beliefs and to test my own belief system. This forum allows me to do that without the risk associated with discussing it with people I see in person all the time.
Comment by: Stephan
15 03/20/06 8:31 AM | Comment Link |As a Christian, I am here for a couple of reasons.
One is the morbid curiousity we all have regarding “what are they saying about me behind my back?” Since we are all semi-anonymous here, we are free to speak our minds. I like seeing several perspectives. From Hemant, an outsiders view of church. From several of the Atheists, a former insider’s view. From other Christians, an insider’s view that may differ from mine.
Another reason is that I have asked many of the same questions that the former-Christians here have asked regarding free will, the nature of God, hell and punishment, etc. I probably could have made the decision they made to walk away. I don’t fault them for making that decision. I don’t have all of the answers, but I believe there are answers - some may be around the corner and others may be out of reach.
I don’t see my Christian faith as a destination, but a continuing journey. I get that sense even from the Atheists here, that they don’t see their lack of Christian faith as a destination. I believe everyone who is honestly seeking truth will find it, and we are all at different places in the journey. The important thing is to keep moving.
Comment by: Cully
16 03/20/06 8:34 AM | Comment Link |Jayson, just to clarify I came out in my personal life 15 years ago. 2 weeks ago was in this forum.
Comment by: Ir
17 03/20/06 8:50 AM | Comment Link |Cully already said he is one.
I think I’m one also. That’s why I kept going to church for quite a while after I was no longer committed to the beliefs of everyone else there.
Was my experience 100% positive? No, but then it hasn’t been outside the church either - that’s life, I find :)
I wrote on Hemant’s blog today about how the way atheists and Christians treated me did cause me to seriously question whether the Holy Spirit is real. It wasn’t so much that Christians were way worse than atheists as that they weren’t better in a way that would have substantiated my belief in the Holy Spirit, rather than eroded it away.
That was one major strike against my beliefs. Eventually it was my change in belief that led me out of the church, not the way people treated me.
I hope you can see the difference between what happened to me and “people hurt me at church so I left”.
Comment by: Meagan
18 03/20/06 10:17 AM | Comment Link |Why are Christians so interested in this story? Hmm, good question.
Personally, I was shocked at the way Christians are perceived (thanks to us… the Christians, no doubt.) I didn’t realize that we were seen as offensive, arrogant, and ready to push our faith on anyone in our path. That, truly, is not a picture of what being a Christ follower is about. It’s about loving people regardless of what they believe or don’t believe.
I’ve been reading a book where a small group of Christians set up a confessional booth in the middle of a college campus and when someone would come by the Christians would confess to them. Apologize in a sense, for not being a true picture of their purpose.
I feel that way, I feel like I have not been a true picture of what being a Christian is all about. This story opened my eyes to that as well as a whole different walk of life.
Comment by: Siamang
19 03/20/06 10:20 AM | Comment Link |Jim wrote:
You started using the sales analogy. Apologies for using it myself here.
In sales, a specific message will suit a certain type of person. Imagine a soft-drink ad (sorry, I know). They sell it as hip, tough, funny and how cool you’ll be if you drink it. That’s great. And every teenager and their parents in America is now buying and drinking ToughAid. Every young, single or newly married person is drinking it too. Old folks like it as well, trying to recapture their youth. But they missed me, the new daddy demographic. I don’t care about looking hip tough or cool. I also don’t have a teenager, so I’m not forced to buy the softdrink by them. I just care if I like how it tastes.
But the ad campaign they have currently sells soft drinks to 85% of Americans. Why change it? They have a virtual monopoly on soft-drink sales.
Why change the sales-pitch to capture a puny 10% of people who neither drink ToughAid or its microbrewed competitors? Maybe they just LIKE the taste of water!
Maybe by catering a sales message to such a slim minority, you’d compromise the brand appeal of ToughAid. It might not look so Cool and hip, if it was trying to appeal to new fathers.
And if you’re going to send a salesperson out on a call, what materials are you going to arm them with, the message that captured 85% of the market, or some untested “touchy feely” stuff that might capture those few eccentrics out there who still drink tap water!
Apologies for the sales analogy. But I find it illuminating and an easy way to communicate.
Comment by: mandy
20 03/20/06 12:41 PM | Comment Link |Jim Asked: Why are Christians so interested in this story?
i think i am personally interested for a couple-a reasons.
first, i am a believer and i work at a church. many of the questions or observations i hear hemant talking about are ones i wonder about too. (like: why do we segregate at church? why are there so many “styles” of church? etc.) i really struggle to find any other place where life is so segregated and where christian vs. secular (and sometimes vs. other christians!!!) is a big deal.
i am also pretty frustrated that the govt. has made so many issues “christian” issues. i am offended that govt. “speaks” for my faith concerning poverty, homosexuality, etc. if i thought that what the govt. portrays was really what christianity was about, i’d certainly be an atheist too!
to understand those stereotypes, i believe christians need to shut up and listen to what our faith looks like to people who are not in the church and be ready for honest questions without trying to defend every criticism. i believe hemant touched on this as well.
i personally am learning a lot about this whole issue, and i hope i continue.
meagan: i have read that same book and it’s one of my favorites!
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
21 03/20/06 1:05 PM | Comment Link |Wow! Great comments on this thread.
Ir writes “I would slightly amend what you wrote to “every Christian I know who has had any meaningful contact with atheists has done so because they realized they needed to renounce this mistaken assumption”.” Actually, I’ve had meaningful contact with atheists over the past 25 years… no real change in my faith because of it.
But I really appreciate the comments, all. Meagan writes “I didn’t realize that we were seen as offensive, arrogant, and ready to push our faith on anyone in our path.” Yeah, I remember when I first realized how we were perceived. It was a real eye-opener for sure, and it has changed the way I think about what I say about what I believe (did that make sense?).
Comment by: Ir
22 03/20/06 1:19 PM | Comment Link |Peter, I think maybe you misunderstood me, which may be because I was unclear.
What I was trying to say is, meaningful contact between Christians and atheists begins when Christians lose assumptions such as “I can prove that the Bible is true by quoting Bible passages!” I was questioning whether contact can really be meaningful until the Christian has shed those sorts of assumptions.
(And I’m not saying the Christian is necessarily the only one with wrong assumptions)
Comment by: HumanistEditor
23 03/20/06 1:26 PM | Comment Link |HEMANT “HELPING ATHEISTS BE NORMAL”
The OTM slogan is “helping Christians be normal.” But I think, with the addition of Hemant, OTM might also be “helping atheists be normal.”
Cully’s post in #10 is not unusual: “My every day dealings are not with Christians”
I know a few atheists who just can’t even stand to be around religous people.
When I interviewed Hemant for a podcast, he mentioned that one of the reasons for his auction was that he wanted to see what the other side was all about before he became hardened in his own way.
I admire that a lot.
So I come to this site because I enjoy watching atheists and Christians actually talk and interact. On other boards where these two groups meet, it’s usually more combative and childish — which bores me.
Comment by: Siamang
24 03/20/06 1:32 PM | Comment Link |Bravo for bringing that up, HumanistEditor.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
25 03/20/06 2:15 PM | Comment Link |Just dropping by. Great thread, y’all.
Good point HumanistEditor.
Siamang, really like your sales analogy. It reminds me of a thing years ago. Our church had a “Kids Korner” in the evening service where the kids all came to the front and they tailored a short presentation to kids. I was asked to do something on missions and evangelism.
I bought a huge bag of the small size “Otis Spunkmeyer” chocolate chip cookies. I waited until the kids were all seated and then I slowly walked down the center aisle eating the cookies as fast as I could. Got down to the front and stood there eating the cookies in front of all the kids. (There wasn’t a single kid who wasn’t watching. They’d probably never seen an adult eating cookies in front of the church.)
About this time a friend of mine came in from stage right, holding his stomach and complaining about how hungry he was. I continued eating. He asked what I had, and I said, “Oh, I have some cookies here. Want one?” He said no and talked about how they were too sweet and not good for you. I kept eating.
He complained again, I offered again. Finally he said he try one. I gave it to him. He liked it, of course. And he finally walked away saying we need to tell other people about these. (I built the idea around the saying that “Witnessing is just one hungry man telling another hungry man where to find food.)
Just before I closed it down I turned to the kids and asked, “Want to try one?” You can imagine…
Anyhow, as a result, I thought your sales ad approach was a great communicator.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Jack
26 03/20/06 3:17 PM | Comment Link |Jim wrote:
I don’t think I can answer your question for other Christians but for me it isn’t because of something about the word “Athiest” (in fact, I’m not sure what you mean!). I’m the Associate Pastor of our church and our Senior Pastor asked me to create a sermon for yesterday but he only gave me a week to figure out what I was going to speak about. Also, I tend to like to do sermons that involve current events and what you and Hemant are doing is certainly current (last year I did a sermon where the central illustration was the Runaway Bride). So, for me it was a case of working against a deadline and stumbling on what you guys are doing at the right moment.
However, the more I think of it there is one more reason why I did the sermon - I thought our church would enjoy hearing about what’s going on with you and Hemant and when people are enjoying listening they tend to be more engaged in learning. Anyway, I hope that answers your question about why I created the message…
Comment by: Meagan
27 03/20/06 3:24 PM | Comment Link |Peter in Pennsylvania… I absoultely understand what you are saying. I am there, my eyes are open and honestly it is a great place to be.
Ir… I agree with you. Meaningful contact begins when people realize that other people are just like themselves. Not better or worse just people.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
28 03/20/06 7:42 PM | Comment Link |Jim and other readers,
Several people have told their stories on OTM. I think a biographical thread would be an interesting place - where people could simply tell their stories. Stories have significance because no one can contradict them. Several such as TX, Cully and Ir have done some autobiographical writing and I have valued it.
I would like to do the same thing and just wonder if you might consider a thread called “Bios” - no comments allowed, just personal stories towards and away from faith. With some appropriate guidelines about what to post or not post. And maybe a partner thread called “responses to Bios” where people could ask questions or comment, creating a give and take about the bios listed.
Just a thought.
Comment by: Eliza
29 03/20/06 9:22 PM | Comment Link |Great comments, you guys.
HumanistEditor said it for me:
- really unproductive elsewhere.
A church near my house is having a “community supper” this Wednesday night. Inspired by reasonable discussions here, I’m thinking of going, just to mingle a bit & see how it goes. I’ve lived in the neighborhood for 12 years and have only dropped in once to leave a donation of food for a shelter they support, though I read their message board every day. Remember, I’m not someone who would willingly walk into a “den of xians” :) before this.
Any suggestions on phrases I can use to politely decline any “sales” spiels & instead turn the conversation to “finding common ground”? Should I be open about my atheism, if asked about my stance/faith? (My prior strategy if “cornered” has been to remain politely noncommittal then exit ASAP.) Ideas and suggestions appreciated….thanks!
Meagan and Mandy - what’s the title of that book you both referred to? It sounds interesting.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
30 03/20/06 10:37 PM | Comment Link |Jack, I love the non philosophical motives that drew you to speak about Hemant. I think it reminds all of us to not assume too much nor take ourselves(or our pasionately held ideals) too seriously.
Comment by: Justin
31 03/20/06 10:55 PM | Comment Link |That metaphor certainly seems to motivate people to evangelism, as I’ve heard it used a few times as an explanation for why one is evangelizing.
However, to non-Christians that I know, this is seen as the evangelist eating cookies and telling the “witnessee” that he is hungry, when the witnessee is adamant that he actually isn’t the least bit hungry.
Comment by: John
32 03/20/06 11:27 PM | Comment Link |I’m intrigued by this thread, having been put onto it by my wife.
A couple comments. first, I offer the amusing little web comment (lost the source, sorry) that, “if atheism is a kind of religion, then not collecting stamps is a kind of hobby.”
Second, my own approach to atheism boiled out of a very “holy” youth spent as an Episcopalian, altar boy, the whole ball of wax. But when I was in high school, I asked myself the following question: “sure, I’ve memorized the entire service for the Eucharist and Morning Prayer, I’ve been baptized, confirmed, I know all the hymns by heart,… but do I actually believe?” And the answer came back pretty clearly: “no.”
Not so surprisingly, I immediately overreacted to my nascent intellectualism (I’m a professional scientist, for what it’s worth). I am embarrassed to report that I once Socratically painted my mother into a corner, forcing her to the brink of a logical conclusion that Chrisianity was just another silly mythology.
She had the good sense to refuse to leap off that particular cliff, and she remains a devout xian to this day, comforted by her Belief. Just as I am comforted by my lack of belief.
A few curious vestiges of my religious youth accompany me still, at the ripe old middle age of 44. For example, I am quite secure in my atheism, but I pray all the time. It’s the oddest thing; I am perfectly confident that there is no god, but I speak to god all the time, as a kind of abstraction, a way of thinking, a kind of thinking out loud, which I find quite genuinely comforting.
I have also been highly amused to find myself outraged at the modernization of the Episcopalian Eucharist services. Why should I care? I rarely go to church, and I no longer take the Eucharist, out of respect for those who take it seriously. And yet, and yet, I can imagine myself going to Morning Prayer, if only I could listen to those magnificent thirty dollar words from the King James edition…
So, it’s weird. I’m in no danger at all of becoming a believer again, but my attitude towards those who are believers has softened quite a bit, from shallow “opiate of the masses” to a much more human “well, I can see how belief could be a great comfort.”
But please, don’t waste your time trying to tell me that Jesus loves me. Tell your believer pals that Jesus loves me. If you want to impress me, then do good works.
“Let your light so shine before men, that they should see your good works, and glorify your father, who is in heaven.”
Even atheists can be impressed by good works, you know.
Comment by: Denigma
33 03/21/06 12:37 AM | Comment Link |Welcome, John.
For what it’s worth, I talk to myself ALL the time, though that probably has more to do with my “eccentric” personality and less with religion.
However, I’ve heard of two situations where no one is an atheist n everyone prays: finals week on a college campus, and according to my uncle, in a foxhole on the frontline.
I’m an amateur biochemist myself. Looking for a job. Maybe you could help me out? =)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
34 03/21/06 4:28 AM | Comment Link |Ir writes [What I was trying to say is, meaningful contact between Christians and atheists begins when Christians lose assumptions such as "I can prove that the Bible is true by quoting Bible passages!"]
EXACTLY! That’s why I’ve ALWAYS started at that place when I talk to people who are non-Xians or atheists. Perhaps it makes me a little less obnoxious.
Comment by: TXatheist
35 03/21/06 5:39 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
My suggestion for project ahteists and christians can work on together or support.
http://www.afa.net/Petitions/IssueDetail.asp?id=191
I am no fan of afa but this is someone’s life.
Comment by: TXatheist
36 03/21/06 5:52 AM | Comment Link |I like Rick L’s idea of a autobiography topic.
Comment by: Ir
37 03/21/06 5:58 AM | Comment Link |By the way, I can’t post under the newest blog entry.
Comment by: Daz
38 03/21/06 6:24 AM | Comment Link |Same problem here not being able to post.
Comment by: mandy
39 03/21/06 7:40 AM | Comment Link |hi Eliza,
the book i’m speaking about is “blue like jazz” by donald miller. terrific read.
Comment by: Ir
40 03/21/06 7:44 AM | Comment Link |I’ve heard good things about that book (I haven’t read it myself).
Comment by: Marty
41 03/21/06 8:43 AM | Comment Link |Jim - I like Rick’s idea in #28 of your setting up a thread where people can share their bios/stories. There are so many interesting and great people that you and Hemant have drawn to this blog - and (for the most part) the way people have come to appreciate each other and communicate from an intropective level - that I find myself very interested in the backgrounds/stories/paths of those who I have come to appreciate so much.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
42 03/21/06 9:35 AM | Comment Link |OK
- guys and gals give us a little time and we will try and make this blog more interesting and fun
Comment by: Ir
43 03/21/06 9:42 AM | Comment Link |Cool - thanks for listening! :)
Comment by: KSG
44 03/21/06 10:25 AM | Comment Link |I love the idea of a bio thread - either make it open to everyone, or how about voting - we vote on a few people who we would like to hear their story and ask if they would contribute. Or at least do only a few at a time, otherwise it could be a monster.
Comment by: Daz
45 03/21/06 11:25 AM | Comment Link |I nominate Ir!
Comment by: Rick L in TX
46 03/21/06 12:35 PM | Comment Link |“Blue Like Jazz” by Donald Miller, and especially the confession booth story, is a great read. I rewrote the confession booth as a drama and had a couple of students perform it in a worship service back in January.
Another great read is “Travelling Mercies” by Anne LaMott.
The “few at a time” bio idea is a good spin. I accept that as a “friendly amendment”! ; )
Comment by: Jim Henderson
47 03/21/06 12:54 PM | Comment Link |We are working on this
Comment by: Nutrideath
48 03/21/06 1:30 PM | Comment Link |This is an interesting thread. It made me wonder why I myself got so interested in this site a few days ago.
I’m Christian, and of a denomination where evangelicalism is not only encouraged, it is taught. We actually have a weekly school in which students participate and are taught how to do well in public speaking, how to talk to people of all backgrounds, & especially about how to use the Bible in both. No one ever graduates — it’s a lifelong learning experience. So, from my perspective when I meet an atheist it is very hard for me to resist trying to talk about God.
I know they’ve probably made up their minds already, just as strongly as I have. But I’m irresistibly intrigued that we could both feel just as strongly for the opposite sides of the same issue. I guess I’m just trying to figure out how that could be.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
49 03/21/06 2:16 PM | Comment Link |I offer a link to the confession booth story that has been mentioned several times:
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
50 03/21/06 2:21 PM | Comment Link |Justin, #31, I can’t speak for anyone else, but if I’m talking with someone, first, I never bang them on the head with Bible verses. It just ain’t my style. But when you know people well enough, and they you, that they are interested in your life and perspectives, if the topic comes up, it simply respond to their questions. And if they tell me they aren’t interested, that’s good enough for me.
I sort of apply an “inverse Pascalian logic”: If I am wrong and they are right, then it really doesn’t matter. And if I am right and they are wrong, it’s their problem and not mine, so it really doesn’t matter. A sort of live and let live approach, I guess.
The Bible makes it clear that there were a lot of people in His own day who didn’t respond to Jesus. So…[shrug] if they don’t respond to me why should that be a big deal?
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
51 03/21/06 3:36 PM | Comment Link |I like Rick’s idea, too. May I suggest an implementation? An invitation from you, Jim, each day to some community member to write their bio. Comments are allowed but only in the form of questions? So that, say, Mr./Ms. X writes their bioblog. We may ask them to elaborate a point or we may ask them what lead them to a particular conclusion. But we may not dispute their conclusion nor debate their conclusion. This places the focus on listening and understanding and learning.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
52 03/21/06 3:44 PM | Comment Link |Nutrideath,
Just a side note. Of all the atheists I know if there was evidence for god we would change our minds in an instant. Our minds aren’t made up completely, just up to today they are content.
Comment by: Justin
53 03/21/06 8:23 PM | Comment Link |Tom in Sacramento (#50),
I’m sorry, please, would you explain how the “I’m just a hungry person telling other hungry people where they can find food” metaphor relates to banging people on the head with Bible verses? Maybe I’m having a slow day :)
The point I was trying to make was that the above metaphor is a bit of Christianese, and the person being witnessed to doesn’t see it the same way that the Christian does.
Regards…
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
54 03/21/06 10:31 PM | Comment Link |Justin, chill dude. It doesn’t relate at all. You’re assuming that I want to force you to do something you don’t want to do. I’m certainly not going to tell you you’re hungry. I figure God gave you a brain so that you can use it. If you’re not hungry you know it better than I do.
Personally, I’d encourage someone to at least taste the “cookies”. They’re pretty good. But if someone doesn’t want my “cookies” I don’t try to force feed them. I don’t particularly care whether they don’t want them because they’re full, or because they’re alergic to chocolate, or they insist that the only REAL cookies are scottish shortbread, or they don’t believe that cookies are real. If they don’t want ‘em that’s good enough for me.
Comment by: Ir
55 03/22/06 4:21 AM | Comment Link |This may seem fairly innocuous to you. You may wonder why someone you offer cookies to gets enraged, gets out a gun and starts chasing you around the block with it.
I can tell you why - it’s because you’re not the first or even the 25th person to offer the cookies and they are so sick of hearing about those cookies.
Try going to an atheist site and offering them your cookies. They get this all the time. They have a name for it: “drive-by preaching”. The Christian drives by, posts their spiel and doesn’t stick around to actually get to know any of the atheists, to find out why they might be atheists. No, they’ve ‘done God’s will and shared the good news’ - they can check it off their to-do list and move on. Well, I would say that such ‘drive-by’ behavior is objectifying and disrespecting - perhaps to the same extent as pictures of strangers (who are real people) created for the sole purpose of someone’s sexual gratification.
Do atheists sometimes seem angry at Christians? Perhaps not all their anger is justified, but I would say some of it is.
Comment by: Ir
56 03/22/06 5:06 AM | Comment Link |I’m glad you’re interested in trying to figure it out.
It concerns me that so many Christians seem to think they’ve figured it out (or been taught the answer) already.
Comment by: NCxian
57 03/22/06 5:33 AM | Comment Link |Back to bios discussion, I like the idea of folks sharing their story. Also, I am an avid reader and although I read mostly fiction, some of my favorite reads are what I would call “spiritual biography”. The Anne Lamott book someone mentioned above is one of my favorites (raised atheist, becomes Christian, but very atypical path, atypical Christian!). I also recently enjoyed a book called The Spiral Staircase, by Karen Armstrong (started out as nun, ended up . . . elsewhere(I don’t want to spoil the ending!)).
So I am wondering if anyone has other recommendations in this regard. I am not particular about what spiritual path the author takes, but they have to be trying to be transparent, making a sincere attempt to describe their real experience. I am not interest in hearing somebody “make a case” for their choice.
Which, by the way, is something I find myself thinking as I read your posts. I am so appreciative of all of you who, no matter where you are coming from are going to, are willing to try to express what you are personally thinking and feeling. Maybe that is why we keep coming back to this site, instead of others (that comment may be in the wrong thread, I can’t keep up!).
Anyway, thanks for any suggestions about books.
Comment by: Ir
58 03/22/06 5:52 AM | Comment Link |NCXian, I enjoyed Anne Lamott’s book “Traveling Mercies” - another good one is Lauren Winner’s “Girl meets God”. Very a-typical, very honest, very heartfelt. Her path to Christianity lay via orthodox Judaism (she wasn’t raised one, she chose to convert as a young adult) and she’s very honest about her struggles with where she prefers Judaism over Christianity, even though she does end up in the “Christian” camp. As I said, it’s very atypical. I probably haven’t done it justice with what I wrote about it.
I’ve read A History of God by Karen Armstrong - interesting but not an easy read because it’s so information-packed - which indicates where she ended up.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
59 03/22/06 11:02 AM | Comment Link |NCxian,
Anything by Donald Miller, especially “Blue Like Jazz”. I don’t think you have to be a Christian to appreciate it, and I think that those of you who are atheists who I’ve talked with out there will wish all Christians were like Donald…
Comment by: NCxian
60 03/22/06 11:37 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Peter and Ir. I will definitely check them out.
Comment by: John Hedtke
61 03/22/06 4:35 PM | Comment Link |Re Ir’s comment in 55: I agree strongly. I don’t think of it as “drive-by preaching’ though; I think of it as “squawk-and-drop:” the image I have is of seagulls swooping in low and leaving a deposit. But the effect is about the same. :)
I just posted someone elsewhere on another blog about the tempest in a teapot over Dan Brown’s books, all of which are the same book and I encourage you not to waste your time reading them. He’s just not a good writer and if he can’t research/steal any better than he does, then he’s a loser all the way around. But sure enough, I got email from someone about how, since I was an author myself, didn’t I know how important Jesus was?
Oy veh. I love and adore true Christians, those who are intelligent and are trying to understand their place in the world and do what they can to make it better for everyone. I’ve met a few of them over the years and they’re precious to me. But it really offends me that the zillions of the rest of them–particularly the idiots that come to my door uninvited to tell me how I’m wrong in my spiritual choices–automatically assume that:
1. I’ve never read the Bible.
2. I couldn’t understand it without their help if I did.
3. I’d come to the same conclusions that they did if I followed through on #1 & 2.
4. That they actually have a better grasp of spirituality than I do.
None of these things seem to be true to me on the face of them to me, but it sure sounds like a sin of pride on the part of evangelists & missionaries to take that point of view. If you’ve found God, great; I’d like to see you do something positive with it instead of just trying to peddle it elsewhere.
The one time I was witnessed to effectively was by a wonderful man I’d worked with for about 6 months. He told me that he was a Christian and what it meant to him and that he’d seen that I wasn’t probably a Christian and that he would love to share with me this great and powerful joy that was in his life but if I didn’t want to he understood. That was almost 20 years ago and it still brings tears to my eyes to recall the passion he was demonstrating for his god at that moment. I was and continue to be honored by his gift of love to me. I had seen him in action and dealing with a very stressful working situation and it was patently clear to anyone who had eyes to see that he went a long way to react with love, even at times that were REALLY difficult to do so. And I could also see that Jesus was listening to him carefully and that Jesus was watching out for him in a way I don’t think I’d ever seen happen before or since.
I wasn’t another brownie point in heaven to him; my happiness was paramount to his concern and he wanted to share the thing in his life that made him happier than anything. Now that’s witnessing! :) I would really like for more people to witness like that. If you want people to know that Christianity is something worth considering, it’s important to show that Christianity has filtered through your life, too. Otherwise, you just look like yet another spiritual Amway seller.
In answer to the question about “Why be here?” the answer about being listened to is a lot of it. The other part is that this is a group of people who might be able to make some changes in the way Christians evangelize so they’ll be less obnoxious and will at the same time help Christians to see that the story about getting rid of the beam in your own eye is still very important. I think that better dialog between Christians and their target audience of converts is likely to be beneficial to both groups.
Yours truly,
John Hedtke
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
62 03/22/06 6:19 PM | Comment Link |Ir, I’m surprised at you. If I understand your post, you are “tarring” me with the same broad brush that applies to every Christian. I have steadfastly avoided broad generalizations about “all you atheists.” If this is the image you have of me, I’m wasting my time. I had hoped to be treated as an individual who happened to be a Christian, not as “one of those drive-by Christians” who might happen to be an individual. Very disappointing.
I think I made it clear, but if I didn’t, let me reiterate now: I offer my cookies to people I KNOW, and generally in response to a QUESTION about them. Period.
I couldn’t care less about going to an atheist web site because the little time I’ve spent there doesn’t persuade me that I would be welcomed regardless of how I act. That I believe there is a God is sufficient reason for them to consider me a fool.
This broad brush approach is very tiresome. Deal with people as individuals or do them the favor of advising them otherwise up front. Be honest.
T
Comment by: Ir
63 03/22/06 7:04 PM | Comment Link |Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
64 03/23/06 5:52 AM | Comment Link |John Hedtke,
THANK you for the story of the one Xian who effectively witnessed to you. May I suggest that the reason for that is because he didn’t actually “witness”, he WAS a “witness”. And that happened in the context of relationship, not “drive by preaching” (love that term, I’m gonna use it).
Incidentally, as a reminder, the Bible doesn’t actually tell followers of Jesus to “witness” it tells us to BE witnesses! Thanks again for the reminder to us Xians of how that is done!
Comment by: Ir
65 03/23/06 6:27 AM | Comment Link |I wonder how the word “witness” turned into a verb in Christian terminology meaning “to tell someone what I believe”.
Peter, does the Bible tell us to be witnesses or does it tell us to be followers?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
66 03/23/06 6:51 AM | Comment Link |Ir.
Yes!
;-)
Comment by: Nutrideath
67 03/23/06 8:35 AM | Comment Link |This is to try to close the italics…
Comment by: Nutrideath
68 03/23/06 8:36 AM | Comment Link |Oh well, it didn’t work. *sigh*
As for the witness question:
Comment by: Nutrideath
69 03/23/06 8:37 AM | Comment Link |maybe I shouldv’e tried closing the block quote? Here goes…
Comment by: John Hedtke
70 03/23/06 9:10 AM | Comment Link |Peter: thank you! That’s a distinction I’d been unaware of and I agree that it’s important. Yeah, I’d love it if I ran into more people who were like that because they cannot help but spread love around them. They make the world a better place in their immediate vicinity. It’s awe-inspiring.
Comment by: anon
71 03/24/06 7:42 AM | Comment Link |speaking of being a witness, i have this to offer:
at work, a friend of mine came to my office and said he had been telling his non-believing friends that he knew a real christian. they did not believe that such a “thing” existed. he argued that i did! he told them that i never once preached at him altho i knew he had slept with many gals and was dealing drugs at the time. he said that all i did was love him.
i was blown away and even tho it was 10 years ago, i think it might be the coolest thing anyone has ever said to me.
Comment by: Ir
72 03/24/06 11:45 AM | Comment Link |that’s neat, anon :)