Posted by Jim Henderson on: 03.21.2006 /
From Comment # 17 – Now Hemant is a sermon topic
Please try remember that those who post here are for the most part very experienced christians or atheists and have heard all of the stanfard arguments for an against this persons statement such as “dont look to man look to God” or “the church isn’t perfect” so when responding do your best to bring some new insights to the conversation- help us think better.
I wrote on Hemant’s blog today that the way atheists and Christians treated me did cause me to seriously question whether the
Holy Spirit is real.
It wasn’t so much that Christians were worse than atheists as that they weren’t better in a way that would have substantiated my belief in the Holy Spirit, rather than eroded it away.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
1 03/21/06 10:51 PM | Comment Link |Ir, the only comment I can even think of to offer in this is that I am probably one of those Christians you refer to, one of the ones who isn’t “better in a way that would have substantiated [your] belief in the Holy Spirit.” When I try to look at myself as objectively as I can — and I am a professional analyst…don’t try this at home ;-) — I have to admit that I fall way short of what I ought to be, way short of what I wish I was.
But, OTOH, on some of my braver moments I also can look down into the depths of my soul and imagine what I would be apart from Christ’s work and the Holy Spirit…and it scares the hell out of me. (Trust me, it’s black down there.)
IMHO, man is a worshipping creature and and he WILL worship someone. There are really only two reasonable options for the place of the object of worship: God….or me. Either there is a Creator who made me and I should seek to please Him. Or else, whether He exists or not, I should do whatever pleases me. There is no other real alternative.
That doesn’t mean I could or would do nothing “good”, it means that any good I would do would ultimately be self-serving. But, knowing myself, I would be a profiligate prodigal of the first order…even if a charming one. ;-)
So maybe…just maybe, you’ve stumbled upon a “natural law”. Maybe it is only the nicest people that are atheists. And the rest of us are as good as they only by the grace of God. ;-)
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Ir
2 03/22/06 4:11 AM | Comment Link |Ok, sorry everyone, this is long…
Actually I was referring to people I know more than I know you, - people I’ve had much more personal interaction with. Having said that, I’m glad you responded so we can discuss this topic.
(I’m afraid I already have!)
Ooooh — I’m so glad you wrote that. I recognize that as the attitude ‘good Christians’ should have — the one that gets a Christian a gold star.
But — it’s actually one of the things that caused me to leave Christianity, when I saw it for what it is. It’s so unbalanced, Tom. It’s so all-or-nothing. It’s encouraged by Bible verses such as the words attributed to Jesus in Matthew 5:48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect .”
Genetics, birth order and/or environment seem to have made me a perfectionist. Do I need that side of me to be encouraged? No! I need it to be tempered and balanced. I realized one day, some years ago, that the Bible verses I was choosing to memorize were almost all challenges like the above and not the ‘grace’ ones. The way I lived my Christian life was inciting my perfectionism, not balancing and moderating it.
Could I have stayed a Christian and changed my approach? Yes, but as my awareness grew I came to think that the way Christianity is often presented tends to suffer from an all-or-nothing approach which I agree with current psychological thinking in categorizing as ‘dysfunctional’; it also tends to be dysfunctionally imbalanced by its undue stress on the negative in human character with doctrines such as “total depravity”. (Which isn’t even a Jewish doctrine — it showed up with the book of Romans as best I can tell — if you don’t believe me go ask some Jews)
So, while I appreciate your vulnerability and your reticence to oversell yourself — as you say, it’s charming :) — how about a more balanced approach to yourself? I think it’s great to have goals which challenge us to go beyond where we are today. But surely a balanced assessment of how you’re doing would show “Sometimes I fall short but often I go the extra mile, I do what’s hard, I face my fears” etc.
Tom, I’m sorry but I absolutely do not trust you on this. Bear with me and I’ll elaborate…
I’ve heard this a lot from Christians so I know it’s not just you — but again, I find it to be dysfunctional all-or-nothing thinking.
Tom, do you truly believe that if you stopped believing in God you’d stop caring about the happiness of your wife, children and grandchildren? I don’t. I think you’d continue doing whatever you do to make them happy now. I don’t think you’d metamorphosize into someone who doesn’t care about them any more. Do you really think you would?
See what I just wrote. I suspect that you don’t have any substantiating evidence for this theory — except the ‘charming’ part :) I agree with that not just because I think you are, but because it’s something you realize wouldn’t change. Well, I think a lot more than that wouldn’t change.
Here’s a mistake Christians make, in my opinion: they observe “Wow, I’m so much better than I was before Jesus came into my life and began transforming me to be more like him” (that’s not the mistake yet) and they conclude “that means that if I stopped believing, I’d revert to how I was”. That’s what my observations tell me is the mistake - no, they wouldn’t!
Well, that’s definitely not true because I’ve run into some atheists other places on the internet who are absolute — oh, never mind ;)
Seriously, continuing with what I just wrote about ‘the mistake’, my observation is that nice Christians, if they stop believing, become nice atheists. My observation is that the ’self-other’ orientation of a person is deeper than whether they believe in God. A belief in God may facilitate a shift of ’self’ towards ‘other’; but that can also happen in various other ways not unique to believers in God. For example, I’ve observed that a primary cause of it (which I think Siamang mentioned on here one day) is, becoming a parent.
Thanks for your comments, Tom.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
3 03/22/06 4:45 AM | Comment Link |Ir, just a quick thought, though. That passage in Matthew “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect .” It refers to “perfect” in the sense of being “complete”, not “without flaw.” (Can’t remember the greek word, my lexicon is at my office, and right now I’m at home…)
I don’t think that changes the whole course of your agrument or anything, but it’s just a thought for you…
Comment by: Ir
4 03/22/06 4:54 AM | Comment Link |That’s a good point, Peter - I have heard that, actually.
Nevertheless, any command to “Be such-and-such, as your heavenly Father is such-and-such” is a command to be perfectly such-and-such, since the Heavenly Father is and does everything perfectly (right?) So the problem of it being an impossible goal, imo, is not resolved.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
5 03/22/06 5:15 AM | Comment Link |Before I was a believer a lot of people thought that I was a Christian. I guess that it was because they thought I was “nice”. Compared to some others around me, I suppose I was. After I became a Christian, I became more aware of and concerned about vices I had that other people could not see. Those around me may not have been able to tell much difference except that I started wearing a cross after a while. The basic idea for me was that I am more than just another animal and this is what spirituality of any sort is about. I think we sometimes try to deny our animal nature in order to embrace this spirituality. This goes beyond just being “nice”.
I guess I am just saying that outward appearance is not the only criteria for judging the value of religion.
Comment by: Daz
6 03/22/06 5:44 AM | Comment Link |I think the reason that Christians don’t seem to be “better” is that most of them don’t work very hard at it and the efforts they do expand are often directed towards rather superficial routines and rituals. You know you can run around and do lot of “things” and in the end not really accomplish very much. I believe it qualifies as “magical thinking” to believe that you say the sinner’s prayer and “poof” you’re a new person.
When I was an evangelical Christian I saw lots of “activity” (bible studies,meetings etc etc) but lots of these seemed to come across as nothing more than soothing balms. There wasn’t a lot of thinking “outside the box” either. I think the attitude, amongst some christians anyways, that they have the “right way” also makes them smug, complacent and less willing to critically examine their beliefs and actions.
But in the end, perhaps bcause my work is highly “people interactive”, it was not the people (pastor excepted perhaps) that led me out but rather the study of Christianity which made me come to the conclusion that the theology of it is highly problematic.
I currently refer to myself as an agnostic Deist.
Comment by: TXatheist
7 03/22/06 6:28 AM | Comment Link |Tom,
I hope you will sway your opinion somewhat. I don’t worship god and I only worship myself in the same manner you do. I want to be a good person, love my neighbor and treat humans better than I did yesterday in improving myself. I guess I hope to show I don’t do whatever pleases myself as I see my choices as a way to worship humanity, the good for all including me.
Comment by: djchuang
8 03/22/06 6:29 AM | Comment Link |In my experience as a Christian, I also have observed there not being much everyday difference between Christians and atheists. Some are kind and good, some aren’t so much. I’ve found the label of Christian, atheist, non-Christian, secular, or whatever, not to be that helpful to identify one’s faith and one’s expected behavior. However, in my limited experience, when I’ve come across someone who is zealous and joyful in sacrificing time and energy to serve others and to do good, I find a little more often that a Christian faith is the underlying motivator than other faiths (or non-faiths.)
Comment by: Ir
9 03/22/06 6:37 AM | Comment Link |Do you think one reason you find the Christian faith to be a motivator of such things more often than otherwise is that you know more Christians than people who aren’t Christians?
Comment by: Rick L in TX
10 03/22/06 6:38 AM | Comment Link |Re: comment #2, I absolutely do not trust you on this.
How have my atheist friends responded to a Christian believer who, in coversation, suggested that the Christian knew the atheist better than the atheist knew himself? Just a thought.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
11 03/22/06 6:46 AM | Comment Link |Ir, YES! It is a hard scripture. I see it this way. The “completeness” or “perfection” that a follower of Jesus has (in Christ) is “positionial.” This means, because of Christ’s sacrifice, we are MADE perfect in God’s sight… we “borrow” Christ’s perfection. Seen in that light, this quote is NOT supposed to be a comfort, but instead, a source of “holy dissatisfaction”. I guess you could put it this way: The Xian has had perfection appropriated for him, so he should strive to actually ACT that way… which speaks to this issue. (Incidentally, the ideas I just presented are not entirely my own, I got them out of a variety of commentaries.)
So, “being perfect” as the Father is should be evident to the world by my life… Sadly, too often it isn’t…
Thanks, Ir, your comments are always FASCINATING!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
12 03/22/06 7:07 AM | Comment Link |Ir
How does this sound to you?
Comment by: Ron
13 03/22/06 7:24 AM | Comment Link |Ir,
I have been sort of sitting on the backburner for a couple of days but this one got me going. There are a couple of questions that I have so bear with me.
I’m not trying to say, “Oh the church isn’t perfect,” but as I read these posts for the life of me I don’t understand why atheists judge God based on people? I understand exactly what you are saying about the Holy Spirit must not be real because Christians are not any better than atheists but then I ask, Who is the Holy Spirit? He is a…helper, not an atainer. Maybe it is the Arminian in me but I think there has to be an element of choice in everything. To say that we have achieved perfection here is to take away the element of choice. “Everyone who is a Christian will be perfect.” Where is the choice in that?
Now by this next thought I mean no offense to anyone, but Ir you have been very provocative at times so please allow me the same courtesy. I think that Christians are better than atheists even if it is an internal betterment. Early in the blog the question was asked what do you miss most about being a Christian? Someone I forget who said, “The peace I used to have when I prayed.” This is not a condemnation on anyone but in my opinion, Christians do posses something that atheists lack and it is not a capacity. [By that I mean to dispell any argument that someone would say, "oh Christians have a greater capacity for love." We know that is balderdash.]
My final question is this, What purpose is there for an atheist to strive for betterment? I sense the answer to that question to be “it is better for society.” I find that incomplete because we know that society will eventually cease to exist. Even if by the time the sun was ready to explode and society was advanced enough to move to a different planet in the Universe. We know that the Universe is growing from the Big Bang eventually it will begin to collaps and shrink back down to what it was. Society will cease to exist and my point is that if we are striving only for the betterment of society, it is ultimately in vain.
Comment by: TXatheist
14 03/22/06 7:39 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
The big collapse is millions of years off according to our best science. I’ll let Ir answer the rest:)
Comment by: Cully
15 03/22/06 7:42 AM | Comment Link |Why does the eventual collapse of society make it something not worth working towards the betterment of? You’re talking billions of years here, just until the sun dies, even more if you are waiting for the collapse of the universe. The human lifespan is far far shorter than that, not to mention the untold trillions of people who will be born in that time. Why shouldn’t we work to better society for just a few of those people? Your house is eventually going to be torn down, does that keep you from mowing the lawn? Painting the shutters?
Why do Christians work for betterment? If not for the betterment of society, which you argue is futile, then purely for the betterment of self? Do you do good works purely for the hope of eternity? Is societal betterment merely a fortunate side effect?
Comment by: Ron
16 03/22/06 7:43 AM | Comment Link |TX,
I agree but it doesn’t matter if it were 100 billion years off it is still something that is going to happen and that is why I made the suggestion that it is ultimately in vain.
Comment by: Ron
17 03/22/06 7:50 AM | Comment Link |Cully,
Because what is the point?
This is a great question and I can’t speak for every Christian but me personally, No I don’t do it for a hope for eternity or a promised Heaven because you are absolutely right that would be completely selfish. I do it out of sheer devotion for a God that I love as a way of giving Him an everlasting thank you.
Comment by: TXatheist
18 03/22/06 7:57 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
Let me give you my analogy to your point if I may. I realize in about 40 or 50 years I’m going to die. I’m going to go kill myself right now.(Do not take this literally anyone, you’d all miss me too much:)
Comment by: Cully
19 03/22/06 8:02 AM | Comment Link |The point is the people who are here now. The people who will follow in 50 years. The people who will follow in 100 years! I have to say Ron I am astounded by your position on this. Are you just playing devil’s advocate with this line of reasoning?
Apply it on a more human scale. Everyone will eventually die. There’s no way around that either. Why read books, or listen to great music, or see art, or theatre? For that matter why take medicine? Why study? Anything you learn will just be forgotten when you die.
If everyone threw up their hands and said, “What’s the point?” where would we be? There are a million reasons to give up… There are just too many people to help. No one thanks you. For every one person you feed thousands still go to bed hungry. No one cares. No one else is doing this difficult work. No one is listening to what you say. No one is recognizing you for what you do. They are going to die anyway, why prolong the inevitable?
Comment by: Ron
20 03/22/06 8:05 AM | Comment Link |TX,
Please understand that I am being provocative not offensive but for an atheist, that is exactly the point I was trying to make so I think that you and I are in agreement.
Comment by: TXatheist
21 03/22/06 8:07 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
I’ve asked this before and based on your wording I’m asking again. If we died on the same day and went to meet god and he said “I can only take one of you, Ron decides who”. Your answer?
Comment by: TXatheist
22 03/22/06 8:11 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
I want to live, I love my wife, I love my son, I love wanting to be here tomorrow to get this one time experience called life. It’s not perfect but I cherish the life I have made for myself. I made many good choices to get where I’m at and unfortunately some smaller dumb choices that didn’t land me in prison or worse, dead.
Comment by: Ron
23 03/22/06 8:16 AM | Comment Link |Cully,
For a Christian there are obvious answers to these questions and many more. But if atheism makes any sense at all, then no I am not playing the devils advocate. It dosen’t make sense, there is more to life. I truely hope that we can agree on this.
Look I have been reading this blog for a long time now and one thing I have realized is that a lot of atheists aren’t Christians because they have questions that they haven’t found the answer to in the Christian faith. That is all that I am doing is giving an example of questions that I have that atheism can’t explain.
Comment by: TXatheist
24 03/22/06 8:18 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
It’s cool by me..I like this dialogue.
Comment by: Nutrideath
25 03/22/06 8:19 AM | Comment Link |Um, I’m going to stay out of this Ron-Tx conversation, except to add a small (but what I think is very interesting) point about the universe:
Nowadays scientists don’t think there will ever actually be a “big crunch.” The universe is expanding at a tremendous rate. But, the speed of expansion is not slowing down. The expansion of the universe is actually accelerating.
I know, I know - that doesn’t have anything to do with the price of tea in China. So, I’ll be quiet now. Unless I think of something useful to add.
Comment by: TXatheist
26 03/22/06 8:20 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
I’ve reread your posts and I don’t see how xianity answers the question for you personally. Please explain. What is your reason for betterment?
Comment by: Daz
27 03/22/06 8:20 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
For one thing don’t assume that all atheists are nihilists. There are some that believe that our consciousness survives death but that this process is quite different from how traditional theistic theologies teach it.
Ultimately reality is what it is, regardless of what anyone of us like about it or not.
Comment by: Ron
28 03/22/06 8:23 AM | Comment Link |TX,
Why do I have to decide I have never proposed that is my place?
I commend you for this that is called life and like I told Cully, I am giving an example of questions that I have that atheism can’t explain.
Comment by: Daz
29 03/22/06 8:24 AM | Comment Link |From what I’v read the universe will keep accelerating to a point a few billion years from now where these forces will become so great they will tear apart the fundamental matter of the universe. Not sure what happens after that :-)
Comment by: Cully
30 03/22/06 8:27 AM | Comment Link |I believe I’ve answered your question with my responses but I’ll reiterate.
You do the things you do because you feel that you owe an allegiance, some thanks, a debt of obligation, whatever to God. Though you deny it for yourself, it is also my belief that Christians also do a lot of the work they do because they feel it will benefit their soul’s positioning after death.
I do what I do because I believe this is all I get. I get one life. One chance at the brass ring. I’ll never be here again, and after death I’ll be reduced to component atoms (eventually) and that will be all she wrote. So I have to do what I can with what I was given. Enjoy life. Drink some good beer. Read some good literature. Make some good art. Try and make life better for some of my fellow humans, and try to leave the type of society that I’d want my children to be raised in.
In the end I do everything I do for PRECISELY the reason you question it’s futility. These are the tools I was given: a working physicality, a working brain, and roughly 80 years to make something of it.
Comment by: Ron
31 03/22/06 8:27 AM | Comment Link |Daz,
I don’t understand that line of atheistic thought and so I don’t feel that I can fairly comment on what you are talking about. It doesn’t make sense to me.
TX,
I will answer your latest question next.
Comment by: Nutrideath
32 03/22/06 8:32 AM | Comment Link |But Cully, is carpe diem really the highest calling in your life? I think most people feel a longing for more - and you probably do too.
Comment by: TXatheist
33 03/22/06 8:36 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath,
Could you please cite a source? I’ve always thought we were expanding and accelerating but it will collapse.
Comment by: Ron
34 03/22/06 8:37 AM | Comment Link |TX,
For me personally, I believe in life after life. I believe what the Bible says is true and most importantly I trust God. That is also the hardest part. Because of my faith in life after life I don’t believe that bettering others and society is in vain but thinking about it from an atheist standpoint, if there is nothing more after we die, then what does it matter if I make the most out of this one life that I live. If society will eventually perish, [Be it next year or 500 trillion years from now] what does it matter the good I do for it? I think that there has to be consistancy.
Comment by: TXatheist
35 03/22/06 8:45 AM | Comment Link |Fair enough, thanks. I cherish the values called courtesy and respect. I was taught that and that’s why I do what I do. I wasn’t taught to be completely selfish. That’s how I view my outlook on how and why I behave this way.
Comment by: Cully
36 03/22/06 8:47 AM | Comment Link |Nutrideath: I didn’t say carpe diem. I am not seizing a single day. I am seizing my LIFE, and hopefully the impact that life can have on others.
What call are you hoping I hear? I hear the call of my fellow man who needs my help, whether it is food, money, building a house, or helping them up a set of subway stairs. I hear the call of posterity that makes me want to make a name for myself in my chosen career. I hear the call of my future family that wants me to leave behind a better world for them to live in. I hear the call of gay men who want me to work now to leave them a society worth living in. I hear that call of my country that wants me to be politically active and help it to become what I hope for it.
Comment by: Ron
37 03/22/06 8:50 AM | Comment Link |TX,
Please don’t take offense to this but I think that you would make a brilliant Christian. I really appreciate your thoughts and attitude. Even though you aren’t a Christian, I really respect you and your insights.
Comment by: TXatheist
38 03/22/06 8:54 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
This is spooky, I was thinking of complimenting you for trying to understand this topic so well. As far as the brilliant xian suggestion…I’m pissed you said that. (the unfortunate thing is you can’t tell I’m joking in text) I’m cool with your comment:) Long story…short version. I helped a woman stranded with her car last year and she said I was her guardian angel and god sent her to help me. I just helped her and left without letting her know some atheist just helped her.
Comment by: Cully
39 03/22/06 9:00 AM | Comment Link |Ron, I can’t see how making a child’s life better is futile. Someone I feed today cares nothing about the end of the universe, they care about how their life is in the here and now. I am not working for MY benefit, I’m working for theirs. Yes, I may not be here to benefit from the better society I create, but other people will. Can’t you see the good in that?
Comment by: TXatheist
40 03/22/06 9:06 AM | Comment Link |I think we all cherish altruism as a value and that’s the middle point of doing good.
Comment by: Ir
41 03/22/06 9:06 AM | Comment Link |A lot of atheists would. I’m tempted to say God must be kicking himself - but that would be a little disrespectful.
Ron, I will respond to #13 later when I have more time.
Comment by: Jayson B.
42 03/22/06 9:15 AM | Comment Link |Ron, I’m sorry, but your comments are coming off as insulting. It’s the “I’m not trying to be mean but,” strategy. And, well, if you’re saying it, you *are* trying to be mean.
Tx makes a brilliant person. He would only make a brilliant christian because he already is so. That comment makes zero sense other than to comment “if only you were a christian…….*sigh* what a shame.”
Here’s the scientific answer for you, not the atheist answer, which *is* the reason why we try to better ourselves:
Society is a product of evolution. Natural selection found that teamwork and cooperation is the best way for our type of organisms to survive and flourish. And the best way for natural selection to supply that was with empathy, relative foresight, and compassion for like. Society is a by product of those traits.
We survive, and we live, because there’s no reason to squander it. It is what it is. I’d rather not stop existing. Birds feed their young, bacteria continue to multiply.
I’m sorry, but it insults me when christians attempt to tell me that the reason why I want to live is because deep down inside god gave me that, with yet again, zero proof.
I guess you haven’t heard the theory of “the god gene,” have you? It’s a theory, one gaining strength, that the concept of an afterlife came about because of our intelligence. You see, we are smart enough to have foresight. We another man dies, we know that can be our fate. That idea of death would have crippled us in our early stages. To compensate for that, the concept of god and afterlife came about to sooth our brains that we *won’t* die, to literally convince ourselves that we’re somehow immortal.
Trick is, it’s not really necessary anymore. We have a massive understanding of the universe compared to what we knew then, so be it a societal compensation or an evolution one, religion isn’t needed anymore.
And if anything proves this, it’s the compassion, empathy, and generousity of athiests.
Comment by: Ron
43 03/22/06 9:20 AM | Comment Link |Cully,
I totally 100% concur.
Yes I can and that is one reason that I am a Christian. Let me eloborate. Everyone has been very understanding to the provocative nature of my statements and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. If I may, please be patient with me as I push the envelope a little further. Once again, I mean no offense to anyone it is just another thought that I had.
Some have hinted that they want to be the best person possible for the future of their kids and society. I would also contend that very few people know who their ancestors were back in oh, say the year 1137 A.D. If they were the worst person possible or if they were an incredibly good gifted and talented person, aside from genetics what impact did they have on your life today? My real question is, If you are the best person you can be what impact is that truly going to have on your lineage 700 or more years from now? I would propose, that society is what will have the stronger effect on anyone’s lineage. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are. You may argue that your actions are what is sculpting tomorrows society but couldn’t the evil people say the same? So does it really matter? For Christians it does. Why does it matter for atheists?
Like I said, I am just being provocative.
Comment by: Jayson B.
44 03/22/06 9:22 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
I am a product of the genetics of my ancestors. My ascendants will be the products of my wonderful genes, and of the wonderful genes of the woman I marry. Even a 1,000 years from now my genetics will have an impact on humanity if I choose to spread them.
that should have been obvious.
Comment by: TXatheist
45 03/22/06 9:25 AM | Comment Link |Could y’all please stop saying brilliant and txatheist in the same sentence. My wife thinks I’m arrogant enough now and we already have trouble getting my head thru the front door:)
Comment by: TXatheist
46 03/22/06 9:30 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
If I may, you’re going to far back. Did you learn anything from your parents? Grandparents? We have a conscience because we were taught to care for others. Some people don’t have very good consciences or at least we don’t think they do. I think my brother in law is one of the most selfish people in the world and his wife is one of the most generous, both catholics.
Comment by: Stephan
47 03/22/06 9:42 AM | Comment Link |I have another thought the throw into this discussion.
Part of the Christian belief is that Satan tempts us in order to pull us away from God. If this is true, then perhaps Atheists aren’t tempted as much as Christians. Why tempt someone who is already separated from God. Instead, focus attacks on those near the edge. Tear down the most visible ones.
Stated another way, in a war, you are not going to bomb areas you already control. You would bomb areas that are either weak or of strategic importance. If there is spiritual warfare (and I believe there is) Satan would not attack those who are already convinced. He would attack those who believe and could either be easily turned or would cause others to fall away if they fell.
This might help explain why Christians aren’t any better than anyone else. Maybe we’re under the attacks of temptation more than anyone else.
I realize that this line of reasoning is probably hard to swallow if you don’t believe in spiritual warfare, but if you try to imagine that it were true you might see the logic in it.
Comment by: TXatheist
48 03/22/06 9:45 AM | Comment Link |I can’t say I agree that you face any more ethical dilemmas than anyone else. They may vary based on your position in life but I don’t think it’s because Satan is trying harder. I also don’t view myself as one separated from god. I think you might perceive challenges as coming from Satan and hence you think about god/satan more than we do though.
Comment by: Ron
49 03/22/06 9:51 AM | Comment Link |Concerning Jayson’s comments on #42. On the record let me just say to Jayson and everyone else. In my heart of hearts I mean no offense to anybody period. No ifs ands or buts.
TX, I retract the brilliant Christian comment to all of the atheist who are offended. I think that you have a brilliant mind.
I have been moved by the intellectual nature of all of the atheists perspectives in these blogs even when we disagree.
So that I can correct my behavior, help me understand it better. Are atheists offended at the provocation of my thoughts? If so why are Christians not allowed the same courtesy of expressing what it is about atheism that doesn’t make sense to us even when atheists have openly shared that about Christianity? There is no, “I don’t mean to be offensive but” I am just trying to understand what about my questions are truly offensive so that I can refrain from being so insensitive to others?
Comment by: Cully
50 03/22/06 9:52 AM | Comment Link |Ron: Any random person may have had a huge impact, or no impact at all. If they fought in a war that helped push society towards a better position, they may have had an enormous impact. Their impact may have been something as simple as helping an old woman cross a street. We can’t know how our actions will spiral out and impact the universe. Your hypothetical woman in 1137 may have given a critical meal to an ancestor that led to Ghandi. Could she have known that? No. But her small act of kindness improved the world generations later.
Are you in some way implying that the generous acts of non-christians are less worthy than those of christians because we aren’t doing it to “glorify God?”
Comment by: cautious
51 03/22/06 9:53 AM | Comment Link |Jayson B’s comments on god genes lured me out…
My understanding of that idea is that humanity, pretty early, came up with the idea of an afterlife. That people (and sometimes other living things) have another life after this one, either in a purely spiritual manner or in a reincarnated sense. Thus spirit worship, or Earth worship, or ancestor worship, or just meditating on the meaning of it all…is the basal, ancestral form of religion and spirituality in people.
Theism was a later idea, and its subsequent transformation from something that a tribe might believe in as a self-identifying social apparatus (”we all believe that the FSM made the perfect food in his own image”) to religious dogma (”I will kill you for suggesting that noodles are not holy”) seems to be an avoidable step. It’s possible for a society to have theistic ideas without needing to build a temple or other holy place, it all sorta depends on how much one person can interact with the Big Cheese.
Now…just because spirituality and religion are human-made constructs doesn’t mean they’re not necessary. Spirituality is _deep_ inside of people, its something that is almost as much of a human trait as walking upright, having opposable thumbs, or watching tv.
And to say that religion isn’t needed is really daft, and surprising to hear after you go on about whether Ron was trying to be mean or not. Just because you or I don’t “need” religion does not mean everyone else on the planet suddenly doesn’t. Belief in higher powers is not going to go away just because we understand the universe. Partially because we don’t understand the universe. Partially because we probably can never understand the universe.
You know that Percy Shelley quote? “If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction”? There’s some parts of nature that we can never hope to know, even if given billions of years to look. There’s always going to be parts of nature that we are ignorant about, and there’s always going to be the possibility of god(s).
Comment by: Jayson B.
52 03/22/06 9:54 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
feel free to express what doesn’t make sense to you. to not be offensive, however, I’d suggest refraining from comments that involve you being superior simply because you are a christian.
unfortunately it is that very thing that turns me off more and more from christianity. The fact that its assumed that I am lacking, I am missing something, and that I am a lesser being because I’m not going to the heaven you invision yourself going to.
Comment by: Jayson B.
53 03/22/06 9:59 AM | Comment Link |cautious,
But on the same token, just because they want religion and it’s popular doesn’t mean that they need it.
And what you’re talking about is a concept of the god of gaps: as science fills us in with better understanding, religion and theology mere move the marker on God to the things we don’t understand *yet*. If God were so important, would he only exist in the tiny gaps of our knowledge as it progresses?
Comment by: Daz
54 03/22/06 10:02 AM | Comment Link |To people outside of conventional Christian thought it seems a cop out to blame things on the devil. Reminds me of the Flip Wilson show when he used to say “the devil made me do it”.
Comment by: Ron
55 03/22/06 10:03 AM | Comment Link |Cully and Jayson,
No. I have even said that I think that all goodness from people is accepted by God.
Comment by: Jayson B.
56 03/22/06 10:04 AM | Comment Link |umm, shouldn’t *all* goodness be accepted by god no matter what?
Comment by: Julie
57 03/22/06 10:07 AM | Comment Link |Why aren’t Christians any better than Atheists is the question, and the author observes that the lack of difference between Christians and Atheist behavior ground away his belief in the Holy Spirit..
When Christians talk about the Holy Spirit, we are really talking about supernatural power. And when we do something in the “power of the spirit” what we mean is we are doing it by God’s power.
With such a power available to us, one would think, yes, we would be markedly different from non-Christians. And we should be. The question of “why aren’t we?” is a valid one. My belief: we aren’t incorporating this power into our daily lives. Say you have a sports car idling in the driveway. Doesn’t mean that’s all it can do is idle; it just means you haven’t put it in gear and punched the accelerator.
I think sometimes Christians liken the Holy Spirit to a sports car in the garage. We have it, we know it, but it’s not our daily driver. We rev it up only when we have a problem we can’t solve on our own power. When “all hell breaks loose” in our lives. Some people are generally more capable than others; they have more ability to solve life’s problems on their own. Some people are born into comfortable circumstances and rare is the situation they can’t fix — or pay someone to fix. Most Americans fall into these categories. A friend came home from a medical mission trip and shared this observation from one of her patients: “You American’s believe in God, but you do not know his power.”
I can think of several situations from my life where I’ve been at the end of my capabilities or the end of my understanding, and have been able to rebuild, and understand, using the power of the Holy Spirit. If all I had was me, my capability, and my wisdom during the darkest moment of my life, I would have been unable to answer the question I had been asking for months “Can you stand the pain one more night?” with a yes. As a nurse on a cancer floor, I had keys to the narcotic box, and I would have used them. My despair was too much for me to handle by myself and I would have, by injecting, by swallowing, and by infusing, emptied that narc box, and found a quiet corner lay down and rest. That was 12 years ago, and I will forever remember the day I came to the end of me and got real with my God. I sat on the edge of my lonely bed, looking out the window at a cherry tree just starting to bloom. I told God I couldn’t stand it anymore; the heartbreak was too much. I admitted that I, the ultimate planner, had no plan B this time. I gave up; I told him, fine…you take these broken remnants if you care to, remake them into something if you can. I can’t. I just don’t want to hurt anymore. I can’t do this one more day. I felt — physically felt — something leaving my body, and on that absolutely still spring morning, that cherry tree started to shake. All of its light pink petals tore loose and drifted to the ground. And I came ROARING back to life. I can’t explain it; always an introverted bookworm, suddenly I was on fire to get out and about and have fun; my sister absolutely loved to go out with me at this time because men literally trailed after me wherever we went. I’ve since simmered down, and am happily married with an adorable 3 year old son (who, btw, is another gift as I carried an infertility diagnosis for 10 years and delivered him at age 41).
My point is, we don’t see evidence because we haven’t truly incorporated his power. The Holy Spirit, who lives in all Christians, sits at idle until we engage.
Comment by: Cully
58 03/22/06 10:08 AM | Comment Link |Ron, I’m not offended by your questions, you say you are being provocative, I take it as such. I’ve played a similar rhetorical games here on this blog.
Comment by: Ron
59 03/22/06 10:15 AM | Comment Link |Jayson,
Yes that is my premis. Other Christians have made refrense that atheists are going to burn in hell. I have not. It has been implied that because I was finding reason for the goodness of Christians then I was condeming the goodness of atheists. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I was only challenging how some things made sense to atheists, not the reality of their goodness.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
60 03/22/06 10:16 AM | Comment Link |Ir
This conversation began with your post.
How do you feel about the direction it has taken?
Any thoughts to offer?
Comment by: Cully
61 03/22/06 10:24 AM | Comment Link |Ron when I asked if you were viewing the acts of atheists as less worthy, I was just probing your line of reasoning. So where has this left you? Do you see now why atheists (at least the handful that have replied here) are motivated even without a god?
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
62 03/22/06 10:28 AM | Comment Link |I feel like Charlie Brown on the TV specials as I scroll through some of this back and forth: Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. ;-)
Ir, thank you for your careful and thoughtful response. I wish we could discuss this quietly over coffee. I think there are some real insights to be gained here because it sounds like you and I have had similar experiences with opposite outcomes. Always a prime source for investigation.
Anyhow, a couple responses. On balance: you wrote how about a more balanced approach to [myself]?” Good point. Balance is one of the things I strive to maintain in all realms of life. But I promise you, I have no “ego issues” or whatever you want to call them. I invite Rick L (my brother for those who weren’t aware) to comment. (Be gentle, bro. ;-) ) But I am not obsessed with my badness or failure to be perfect. But I recognize that I have this very dark, tough, sinewy cord running through my character that, if I had no external reason to control it would lead me to please myself at others’ expense. I already do that more than I like to admit. I not infrequently find myself tempted to do something hurtful to someone else and, I think, wrong. And I find myself recalling the words of King David after he’d committed adultery with Bathsheba and then caused her husband to be killed; “Against Thee, and Thee only have I sinned.” That tells me that there is a priority of offense that goes way beyond whomever will be temporally hurt by my actions.
But, no, do not mistake my objectivity about my dark side, for a failure to be capable of being just as objective about my good side. I don’t feel comfortable recounting that stuff, however. The dark side I take full responsibility for. The good stuff is a gift of God first, and genetics, family heritage, education, life experiences, etc. secondarily. But there is plenty there to brag on if I felt comfortable doing so.
And then, on the happiness of others: Of course I would be concerned with the happiness of others. If I make them happy they are more likely to do for me what I want them to. Imagine letting that run loose!
My wife and I have endured some very difficult experiences together. I won’t go into the details, but suffice to say that I could have made my life a whole lot easier in innumerable ways if I had just bailed. And it probably would have made her life significantly easier, too. But we made a promise…before God and these witnesses. As we joke, murder may be an option, but divorce is not. ;-)
You wrote, “I suspect that you don’t have any substantiating evidence for this theory.” Ahh, but I do. And that is why I believe it.
And then, on “a mistake Christians make, …that means that if I stopped believing, I’d revert to how I was”. That’s not where I’m coming from at all. I accepted Christ when I was about 8 years old (50 years ago if anyone is counting). So I never was a “bad person before I met Christ.” I never got the chance. ;-) My observations are based on the simple fact that, as I initially observed, I’m bad enough now with Him. And I think that a significant limiter on my behavior has been a growing awareness of what I might have been and an increasing gratitude for the greatness of His mercy and grace toward me. Notwithstanding my all too frequent failures, how could I not want to be good for Him when He has been so good to me?
Still yearning for that virtual Starbucks…
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: cautious
63 03/22/06 10:31 AM | Comment Link |Jayson-
Well, sure, I’m not arguing for the continued existence of religion just because a lot of people want it. But I still think that people who share the same faith need places to hang out and do whatever they do to make themselves happy. Religion is, when its nice, a cohesive tool for allowing people to forgive each other of their vices. Spirituality is, in some ways, just a supernatural component to empathy: in that one recognizes another person not just as another person but as another beautiful/wonderful creation.
If religion helps people strive towards being better, and love their neighbors more, and treat other people as good and decent people…then how’s it not necessary? To copy and paste from a Brights email: “Renowned philosopher Daniel Dennett (author of “Breaking the Spell” and an enthusiastic Bright) cites a dramatic statistic: “. . . American religious donations currently total more than $60 billion per year or more than $330 per American over the age of 18.” (p. 190)”
That 60 billion dollars mostly went to helping people in need. …probably. That is a case wherein religion helped out a lot, and I’m not going to hold it against people who help other people partially because they’re motivated by religion.
And …yes I am partially talking about the god of gaps, but… There’s a difference in the theist and nontheist takes on how big these gaps are. Three places where I don’t think there are gaps are:
a) before the Big Bang
b) before I was alive
c) after I’m dead
In that I think there was no “before” the Big Bang since that’s when space and time started, I think that all living things start existing when they start living, and I think that they stop existing when they die.
Theists don’t think that. And since its not possible for us, as a species, to know what happened before the Big Bang, or before we’re born, or after we die, these will always be areas of contention, conversation, argument, and…quite literally, faith. These are tiny gaps in my mind, since I don’t think they’re gaps. But there was a good 12-13 billion years before I was born, that’s a big gap where …I dunno, did I have a spirit hanging around all that time? No one knows, no one can know, and thus faith fills in the blank spots of the canvas.
Comment by: Jayson B.
64 03/22/06 10:35 AM | Comment Link |But Ron, god has said in the bible that us atheists have comitted the unforgivable sin, and *will* burn in hell regardless of our actions. We are the ultimate doomed children, more doomed than satanists and murderers.
And julie, I had a similiar experience myself: the day that I took action and responsibility for my own situation………..the day I admitted to myself to be an atheist.
Was ty cobb an amazing baseball player because he was amazing, or because he believed wearing black socks on thursday games gave him the power?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
65 03/22/06 10:42 AM | Comment Link |Ir
Is this conversation helpful?
Comment by: Jayson B.
66 03/22/06 10:56 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
I sense that you’re uncomfortable with the direction of the post. is that true?
Comment by: Ron
67 03/22/06 11:05 AM | Comment Link |Let me clarify,
I have gone back and reread the posts and understand why there is confusion. I am in no way suggesting that the good that anyone does is to be ignored. I was trying to draw a distinction between how I perceived atheists to think and how Christians think. I was not saying one is better than the other in God’s eyes.
The elaboration:
If I were an atheist, I would perceive my good works to go for the betterment of society right?
From a Christian perspective, society has an eventual end and so that could be considered vainity.
That does not discredit the reality of any good that anyone does. All that says is that I don’t understand the atheists reasoning on this topic, that is not to say that I don’t understand the good that they do and so therefore they burn. No No No!
All I was asking in the dialogue is, If society will end someday and there is nothing after, then what is the purpose of doing good?
I do see where that could have been misunderstood into what it probably was misunderstood, but if anyone understood me to be implying anything other than that question then that is not what I meant and I am sorry.
Comment by: Cully
68 03/22/06 11:16 AM | Comment Link |To make it better while it lasts.
There’s no simpler way to phrase it.
So that I understand you… Doing anything to better society that is NOT done in the name of God, is vanity in the eyes of God? (This is a Christian viewpoint that I don’t understand, so I’m just asking for a further clarification.)
Comment by: Daz
69 03/22/06 11:21 AM | Comment Link |Ron,
What shows up on this thread is the possibly irreconciliable disparity in thinking between theists like yourself and folks like Jayson B. For yourself there is only a point to life if there is a God (and a rather narrow definition of such I feel) and an afterlife. I’ll be rather bold here and suggest that you likely think this way because you have internalized what has been said to you repeatedly over a long time.
For people who don’t share your metaphysics what is wrong with them trying to define a purpose for their life even if the ultimate effect may be minimal or non-exisitent? It doesn’t follow that therefore these folks should just lie down and give up and do nothing with their lives. I think even Jesus would agree with me on that one.
Comment by: Ron
70 03/22/06 11:23 AM | Comment Link |No. I don’t think anything is vanity to God.
Comment by: Stephan
71 03/22/06 11:27 AM | Comment Link |Ron, I have to side with the Atheists on this one. I really don’t see where you are coming from. I don’t see how the world ending in a billion years negates anything good we do now, whether Christian, Atheist, Muslim or Platypus (they just don’t fit into any group).
I want to go back to something I posted earlier, which no one seemed to get. I believe we are in a spiritual battle. It is Satan’s goal to get people to distrust God or not believe in Him. He does this by tempting people, causing doubt, throwing up barriers between people and God. This is beautifully drawn out in the book of Job. Job was a target specifically because he trusted God. What reason would Satan have for attacking an unbeliever? They are already conquered.
TX, you say you are not separated from God. Do you feel like you have a relationship with Him? Did you feel like you had a relationship with Him when you were a Christian?
Comment by: Jayson B.
72 03/22/06 11:30 AM | Comment Link |stephan,
if satan has already won me over, why doesn’t he reward me for all my evil anti-god deeds on earth?
Comment by: Jayson B.
73 03/22/06 11:31 AM | Comment Link |I will say this: if the concept of satan and hell and god’s wrath didn’t exist, christianity would be a WHOLE lot easier to swallow, because at least then the leaps of logic wouldn’t be such chasms.
Comment by: Stephan
74 03/22/06 11:32 AM | Comment Link |Jayson, I assume you are playing the devil’s advocate on this one (pun intended).
I do not believe Satan is going to reward anyone for anything. I believe he adheres to a scorched earth policy. Lead people away from God and then leave them on their own.
Comment by: Cully
75 03/22/06 11:35 AM | Comment Link |then I don’t understand what this means:
Comment by: Nutrideath
76 03/22/06 11:37 AM | Comment Link |Jayson, do you have that citation? I know the Bible does describe an unforgiveable sin, but as far as I know that sin is not “being atheist.”
Also, your comments in #42 about society being the product of evolution sparked some interest for me. Pardon me if I’m getting on often covered ground here, but how does that work?
It seems that evolution is all about competing for a spot in the gene pool. So, either:
a) You’re right: evolution resulted in the most compassionate reproducing the most often, which eventually out-produced & wiped out all warlike humans. No, wait - that doesn’t seem right. So maybe:
b) You’re wrong: evolution is all about fighting to be the one to mate. Yeah, that would explain all the violent tendencies we observe in humans. Except we have all these darn “compassionate feelings” every now & then.
This seems like a paradox.
Plus, its hard to see how “god genes” work - I didn’t know you could pass on an abstract concept via genetics.
Please give me a little more info on these two points.
Comment by: TXatheist
77 03/22/06 11:37 AM | Comment Link |Stephan,
Please walk a mile in my shoes as they say when you read this:) Satan has conquered me as there is no satan. I’m not separated or attached to god or any other fictional character as they don’t exist. I realize it’s not possible and when I did believe yes I thought I was pleasing him when I was good and praised god, imo.
Comment by: cautious
78 03/22/06 11:38 AM | Comment Link |“Platypus (they just don’t fit into any group).”
I thought they were Shintoists?
But yeah I don’t see the “theism or nihilism” argument as being a very good representation of what really exists. Maybe because some theists (none that I’ve ever met) hold the belief that doing good to and for others is not a necessary thing. Monks that hole themselves up in a cloister and isolate themselves from the rest of the world seem to be doing very little in the way of nice things for others.
(unless they were being nice to others in that they didn’t bathe and thus it’s kinda better for everyone that they stayed in a cloister?)
Comment by: Julie
79 03/22/06 11:48 AM | Comment Link |Jayson,
I think Ty Cobb was a great athlete because he was gifted, had the will to train hard, and the opportunity to train well. I do not think his gifting came from his black socks. If he chose to believe it was from his black socks, well that would be his choice and I wouldn’t argue the point.
Comment by: Nutrideath
80 03/22/06 11:49 AM | Comment Link |Jayson also wrote:
I agree that those concepts as taught by mainstream Christianity leave a few holes in logic. But, mainstream Christianity leaves much out of the picture that is actually found in the Bible.
Are you familiar with the issue of universal sovereignty as depicted in the Bible? This issue sheds light on a few of the other ones you mentioned.
Comment by: Rick L in TX
81 03/22/06 11:52 AM | Comment Link |Since my brother invited me in #62 to offer perspective that is other than virtual knowledge, I will oblige him. Tom is a guy with extremely well-developed personality and people skills. You’ve already picked up on some of those; he’s a good communicator, and rare is the person who would not walk away from the coffee table feeling warmth for him. We often joke that Tom is emotionally disadvantaged; that’s a playful way of talking about the fact that on the thinking vs feeling continuom, Tom is WAY over on the thinking side - wouldn’t know a feeling unless it bit him on the nose. On that spectrum he is no where close to balanced. I would hasten to add, however, that on the spectrum of an egomaniacal to a self-deprecating sense of self, which I took to be the original issue here, I consider him very balanced. He strikes me as living at neither extreme, but being at a very healthy central point.
And while he might like you to imagine that his 8th birthday was 50 years ago, the fact is that on Friday it will be 51 years ago!
Comment by: Nutrideath
82 03/22/06 11:52 AM | Comment Link |Oops - I think I screwed up the quoting. Will this post fix it?
Comment by: Rick L in TX
83 03/22/06 11:53 AM | Comment Link |Just turning off someone’s block quote.
Comment by: Ir
84 03/22/06 11:54 AM | Comment Link |Jim, I’m not ignoring your questions/comments (or anyone else’s) - I just haven’t had time to get to them yet.
Comment by: Ir
85 03/22/06 1:20 PM | Comment Link |Jim, I recognize it as a classic piece of ‘hardcore’ Christian theology. At the same time it sounds very unreal to me. It makes me glad my days of believing 6 impossible things before breakfast are over ;)
Ok, I will address Peter’s whole post now:
Peter, I don’t actually think Jesus was talking about ‘positional righteousness’. I do think he was presenting a challenge to his hearers, which I think is similar to you saying he was inciting ‘holy dissatisfaction’. I suppose you used the word ‘holy’ to show that this is not a ’sinful’ type of dissatisfaction such as coveting, but is rather a good kind because it encourages people to be better.
I still don’t see the relevance of positional perfection. Why not simply say Jesus wanted people to be challenged to act the very best they were able? Why bring positional perfection into it at all?
I could have guessed they were from commentaries. Imo, it’s a good illustration why some of the Bible studies I’ve been in have a guideline that the participants are to answer questions without using a commentary for reference until after the meeting where the questions are discussed. Commentaries can stifle original thought. (Peter, just to be clear, I’m not trying to say you lack original thought)
Comment by: Ir
86 03/22/06 1:27 PM | Comment Link |Ron, could you elaborate on this ‘internal betterment’? Is it visible to others, or is it a belief you have (like positional perfection) which can’t be seen? What does it consist of? Is it because of the Holy Spirit? If not, what causes it?
Because I want to Ron. Because it makes me happy when I can do things for others that improve their lives/make them happier. Aren’t those reasons enough? To me they are very real reasons.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
87 03/22/06 1:52 PM | Comment Link |Ir, I don’t know if this will help with the “positional” thing or not. It isn’t real clear to me where the problem lays. But this is an easy concept for me because of my life experience.
We have two kids living in our house. They are in no (biological) way related to me. They are the two oldest kids born out of wedlock to my step-daughter from different fathers. (Try drawing THAT family tree. ;-) ) They have, from a purely biological perspective, no claim on me or anything I have. But I regard them in every sense as fully my children and fully my heirs and I love them profoundly.
To paraphrase, If I, being evil, know how to bestow positional relationship, how much more can our Father in Heaven? So, I hope that might get you down to where you only need to believe five impossible things before breakfast. ;-)
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
88 03/22/06 2:40 PM | Comment Link |Jayson said (#64):
But Ron, god has said in the bible that us atheists have comitted the unforgivable sin, and *will* burn in hell regardless of our actions. We are the ultimate doomed children, more doomed than satanists and murderers.
I cannot speak for Ron, but as a Christian I do not believe this. As I understand it the “unforgiveable sin” has to do with free will. The Holy Spirit (or God) will not force himself upon you if you say no. This does not mean that you cannot change your mind later and seek Him out, only that He will quit bugging you. Now if you could only get Christians to do that … :)
Comment by: Siamang
89 03/22/06 2:49 PM | Comment Link |Ron said:
This, to me, is the absolutist thinking that I see in a lot of belief that involves an infinite being.
Either my good works last FOREVER, or they’re WORTHLESS.
Either my soul is ETERNAL or I might as well ANIHILATE myself today.
Either I am SINFUL and DESERVE infinite torture, or I’m washed CLEAN by the forgiveness of God.
It’s absolutism. It’s not the way the world works in my opinion:
Either I have all the MONEY in the world, or I’m DESTITUTE.
Either I SIRE the entire next generation, or I have NO CHILDREN!
Either I have ALL the cars in the world, or I have NONE!
You ask me what my ancestor did in 1137 that mattered. That was about 30 generations ago. In 30 generations, I can basically say that the odds are that almost everyone in Europe who had offspring for a few generations was related to me.
So which of my ancestors helped make the world we live in a better place in the 12th century?
Well, just look at the positive pieces of the 12th century. The birth of Christian Humanism. First european universities are founded. First use of a compass on a ship.
My ancestors fought in the Crusades, which continues to have reprocussions to this day.
So much, SO much that they did matters every day of our lives. I want people to look back at the 20th and 21st century and think that WE did our part to help them. They’re our great, great, great, great, great, great grandchildren. We owe them.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
90 03/22/06 2:57 PM | Comment Link |Ron, I can see that you are coming from the points brought out by the book of Ecclesiastes, but I don’t think others here are getting it because they haven’t read that recently (or at all). I did good things for others before I was a believer because I believed it would help the world (at least my little corner or it) in the near future, meaning my life time or the life time of my children. It did not matter to me if it had no ultimate benefit to society, or if society would come to an end some day.
As a believer I do not do less for others than I used to, but I am not sure I do a whole lot more. I may enjoy it more than used to however because I am not doing it just for my fellow man but also for God.
Comment by: Siamang
91 03/22/06 3:01 PM | Comment Link |Nutrideath wrote:
It’s not either/or. It’s a balance. Those individuals who know when to fight AND know when to make love, AND can best tell the difference in a survival situation tend to survive and pass those genes on to the next generation.
All war genes, you get races which wipe themselves out. All peace, and you get those which can be wiped out by others.
All BALANCE? You get chimps. Chimps do all those same things. They wage war. They wage peace, love and understanding, too.
Remember, “your” genes aren’t really just yours. They belong to your family too. Self-sacrifice still passes on your family genes if it protects the family as a whole.
Comment by: Jayson B.
92 03/22/06 3:02 PM | Comment Link |I’m sorry guys, I know we’ve been over this before, but TWICE in the bible it is made distinctly clear: say anything bad about jesus or the holy spirit, and you will NEVER go to heaven. There is no “okay, i believe now god, let me go!” We’re toast.
Your bible, not mine. Thank goodness god forgives all…………….but *that.* A murderer and a child rapist will make it to heaven before I do. If that isn’t a leap of logic I don’t know what is.
Comment by: Cully
93 03/22/06 3:06 PM | Comment Link |Bruce… care to give us the passage in Ecclesiastes that would shed light on this?
Comment by: Rick L in TX
94 03/22/06 3:08 PM | Comment Link |Jayson, the blog isn’t for debate, so I’m not going there. Suffice it to say no Christian I know believes the characterization you have presented. It’s a straw man.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
95 03/22/06 3:12 PM | Comment Link |The entire book of Ecclesiastes is about how everything is in vain, including good works, if you don’t have faith in God.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
96 03/22/06 3:26 PM | Comment Link |Jayson B said:
Your bible, not mine. Thank goodness god forgives all…………….but *that.* A murderer and a child rapist will make it to heaven before I do. If that isn’t a leap of logic I don’t know what is.
Let me see if I understand this, you are telling me that God has given up on you so we Christians should just leave you alone?
I’m sorry but the Bible is not a rulebook or legal document to me. The link you provided gives several different viewpoints, one of which is that you can be forgiven even if turn away from God for a time. I googled some other commentaries just to make sure I wasn’t the only Christian that believes this.
Not all Christians fit into one mold, so please don’t make the assumption that we do.
Comment by: TXatheist
97 03/22/06 4:16 PM | Comment Link |Jayson,
If you see the movie http://www.thegodmovie.com it gives you the references. Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29. It is unforgiveable by the biblical god to blasphemy against the holy spirit.
Bruce,
I definitely don’t lump all xians together.
Comment by: djchuang
98 03/22/06 4:34 PM | Comment Link |Granted, I may know more Christians personally, and there may be more Christians in the world than almost any other religion in this time of history. One could argue that anecdotal experiences and comparisons are perhaps more reflective of limited perspectives and biases anyways.
My comment was not intended to draw a numeric comparison, but more of my fascination that faith would motivate some people to do copious amounts of good works.
Comment by: Ir
99 03/22/06 4:43 PM | Comment Link |Julie, thanks for going back to the original topic of this blog and giving the reason why you believe Christians aren’t markedly different in character and behavior from atheists even though Christians — according to what Christian doctrine teaches — have the Holy Spirit and atheists don’t.
So what you’re saying is that Christians have a power that could make them better than atheists but they’re so amazingly bad at using this power that I can’t see it making any difference in their lives whatsoever.
I still think the simpler and more plausible explanation is that the power doesn’t exist. I don’t find it plausible that Christians have a power they are so bad at using that it doesn’t end up making any difference at all.
Thanks for sharing your personal experience of how God turned your life around. I’m glad you didn’t resort to the narcotics box.
In the part of your post I just quoted, how can you tell the difference between what is the Holy Spirit and what is just your own capability and wisdom?
In my own life I realized I had no way of telling the difference.
Comment by: Ir
100 03/22/06 5:17 PM | Comment Link |Well — like most blog entries here the comments have got somewhat off-topic. I’m used to discussion boards where anyone can start a new thread if they want to discuss a new topic — I know that people posting here don’t have that option so I feel reluctant to blame anyone for asking a question they want to hear answered on this blog entry.
I have had some responses from Christians and as usual I find myself thinking “How come this is a serious problem to me but not to other Christians?” It makes me feel more of an outsider than ever that other Christians don’t seem to have problems with what I have problems with. Like I posted somewhere else on here the other day, Christianity is a very well-guarded fortress. Meaning, there’s an answer for everything and Christians seem happy to accept the answer. They don’t do what I started doing, which is to ask “Is this the most reasonable answer? Is it the most plausible one? Is it the most real one?” It wasn’t comfortable or convenient to ask those questions and realize I couldn’t answer “yes” with conviction. But I didn’t see what else I could do that was honest.
Comment by: Ir
101 03/22/06 5:32 PM | Comment Link |Rick, I don’t like it when people suggest they know me better than I know myself. Maybe it seems like that was what I was doing, but I didn’t intend my comment that way.
Tom as best I can tell was speculating that if he were an atheist he’d behave much worse. He wasn’t saying “this has happened; this is my experience”. It was his speculation I didn’t trust, not his relating of his actual experience.
It seems to me that I do have actual experience of what is only speculation to him. I have been a Christian and now I am not. I know that that change has not taken away my desire to be kind to others.
It’s not that I was saying I know him better than he knows himself; it’s that I weight actual experience more highly than speculation.
Comment by: Ir
102 03/22/06 5:37 PM | Comment Link |Tom, I respect you and I respect what you’ve learned from your life experiences and the way you kept going when life was difficult and did the right thing rather than the easiest thing. Virtual Starbucks sounds good to me :)
Having said that, I don’t understand how you can have experience of going from being a Christian to not being one if that hasn’t happened to you. See, I’m not just ’struggling in my faith’; I’m not just ‘going through a dry spell’. I’m not going through a period of being angry with God which I’ll come out of and then be back to my Christian beliefs. Rather, I’m settled into living life without God. I’m not trying to go back because I like life better this way. I haven’t seen anything you’ve written that has indicated you’ve ever been where I’m at regarding belief/non-belief.
I want to be open to going back if someone can answer all my questions but since most Christians don’t even seem to understand why their answers don’t work for me I don’t think it’s very likely to happen.
Comment by: Ir
103 03/22/06 5:43 PM | Comment Link |Since you asked twice, I get to answer twice ;)
I do it because I want to. Just like you do it because you want to. You want to do it for God; I want to do it for other people.
Comment by: Ir
104 03/22/06 5:53 PM | Comment Link |Indeed. Here’s a quote from the article you linked to:
The real danger arises, however, when one can continually violate God’s law and never feel the slightest remorse over his rebellion.
When a Christian says to an atheist “this is God’s law” and the atheist responds with “Go do something physically impossible to yourself” rather than “Thanks so much - I’ll get right on it” then isn’t the atheist doing exactly what is described above, i.e. violating God’s law and showing no remorse for his (or her) rebellion?
Comment by: Rick L in TX
105 03/22/06 6:26 PM | Comment Link |I have to confess serious disappointment (and the return of doubt at this blog’s viability as an ongoing place of learning from and listening to those with differing viewpoints) - when posts 91 and 96 mis-characterize Christian belief even when there have been at least 3 posts from Christian believers saying “no, that’s not our belief”. I haven’t seen Christians in this dialogue telling one another “yep, this is what atheists say” even as the atheists are saying “nope, that’s not what we say”. I guess the site isn’t going to become what I had hoped for.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
106 03/22/06 6:40 PM | Comment Link |Ir, good luck with that. God hasn’t answered all my questions and I can guarantee you He isn’t going to answer all your questions. I’d love to know why the avocado pit is so big, for example. ;-)
You are welcome to live your life anyway that seems to work for you. But, imho, there is no point saying things like, “I want to be open to going back if someone can answer all my questions…”, because the simple fact of the matter is that God is not going to do that for you or anyone else.
The Bible makes it clear that God wants people to come to Him by faith, not by knowledge. I, and I assume you, too, am a polite person. When I want to know someone I accept them on their terms (or not at all if their terms are unacceptable to me) but I don’t go on with any patronizing talk of being open to a relationship if only they come on MY terms. It doesn’t work that way on earth and it doesn’t work that way in Heaven.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Ir
107 03/22/06 6:55 PM | Comment Link |I’ll never get to questions that have that little effect on my life because my list of questions that could impact my life is too long already! :)
Why would I want a relationship with someone who refuses to answer my questions?
So…what God does is ‘patronizing’ talk, then, since he insists we come on HIS terms only?
(I’m just asking ;))
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
108 03/22/06 7:06 PM | Comment Link |Ir, I am a little confused by your message #100. It seems that you and Jayson, both non-believers are quoting scripture to Christians saying you are condemned. Are you trying to convince us? Are you saying that this is unreasonable and therefore Christianity or any other sort of theism is also unreasonable?
I’m sorry but the commentators at christiananswers.net don’t speak for me or what I believe about Christianity on this issue.
If you want to reject God, go ahead, but I don’t believe these scriptures are saying you are irredeemable. It just says that God isn’t going to drag you into heaven kicking and screaming.
Comment by: Cully
109 03/22/06 7:53 PM | Comment Link |What does God have against knowledge?
I can’t come to him through knowledge, I have to have faith. The whole reason that I have to come to him at all is because 6,000 years ago one of my ancestors sought knowledge. What’s so wrong about me wanting to know a couple things?
Comment by: Texan
110 03/22/06 8:28 PM | Comment Link |Hey Ir,
You said,
Are you looking for answers from people or from a God you have ceased to believe in? I think that the Christians at this site are becoming more aware of what it’s like to be you and the things you and other atheists experience. I think that is a goal of this site.
Something I hear, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that all the questions you and others have must be answered before any steps toward a God can happen. But is that how relationships work?
From my understanding, the relationship Christians have with God is just that, a relationship. If our human relationships required such thorough investigation, I wonder if we would have relationships at all? I see them as a journey. I will never know someone as well as I think I do because there will always be some new dimension revealed at some point along the way–something I didn’t know before, or perhaps something I’ve wondered about. I think it’s the same with knowing God. There is no way we can know everything about him before making a choice to believe in him.
Of course it should be expected that people do their homework before entering into a serious relationship with somebody, but usually the evidence required to think “this person’s ok” is somewhat left to things like first impressions and the like…and other things I can’t find the words for… If a person is going to believe in something, it’s only smart to know what it is they are (or are not) believing in.
Of course, I guess this could be exactly what you are doing. :)
As always, it’s been interesting and enlightening to read. :)
Comment by: Jayson B.
111 03/22/06 10:05 PM | Comment Link |There’s two points Bruce. Number one, why are christians so set on trying to convert atheists when their holy book explicitly states its not worth their time? Secondly, why, yet again, does god set about making contradictory rules that simply MAKE NO SENSE. Jesus died for our sins……except for that one.
Bruce, they may not speak for you, but you’re demonstrating something that I see a lot of christians do: something in the bible makes them uncomfortable. It doesn’t jive with what they’ve been told they supposedly believe. So, they either dismiss it, or try to explain it away. The routine favorite is trying to find different definitions for given words so they can use the excuse of “oh, it wasn’t translated properly.” This is the word of GOD……..if it’s not translated properly, something is seriously wrong with it.
There’s no explaining that one away Bruce, and I have to admit, I *do* get pleasure on watching christians try to explain it away, because it fries their brain, and you can see them disconnect because they’re rather ignore than question.
It’s not pardonable Bruce. It’s unforgivable. That doesn’t mean that it’s just harder for me to get in to heaven, that makes it impossible. god says it TWICE in the bible
You have to admit it: god doesn’t forgive atheists. god forgives child rapists and mass murderers, but god doesn’t forgive atheists. That very glaring illogical law is enough to make it obvious to me that he’s a construct of man, because no perfect being would be that stupid.
Comment by: Siamang
112 03/22/06 11:15 PM | Comment Link |The Cruciatus Curse, The Imperius Curse and the Killing Curse are the three Unforgivable Curses.
Each will win you a one-way ticket to Azkaban.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
113 03/23/06 5:31 AM | Comment Link |Ir writes [I want to be open to going back if someone can answer all my questions but since most Christians don't even seem to understand why their answers don't work for me I don't think it's very likely to happen.]
But actually, do you think that might violate common sense. If God really exists as Xianity understands him, then wouldn’t it follow that as mortals we wouldn’t be able to understand everything about him? Therefore, wouldn’t there always remain some mystery? (I also like what Texan says about relationships. I don’t totally understand my wife… never will… but I love her.)
And Siamang… the three Unforgivable Curses… made me laugh, that is a hoot!
Comment by: Ir
114 03/23/06 5:58 AM | Comment Link |,Blockquote> Peter wrote: But actually, do you think that might violate common sense. If God really exists as Xianity understands him, then wouldn’t it follow that as mortals we wouldn’t be able to understand everything about him?
Peter, thanks for the response. This is where I’m at in my thinking: all concepts of the personal being God that I’ve heard violate my common sense.
Christians seem able to accept on the basis “we’re only human so we can’t understand God” - but I’m not able to accept the extent to which my common sense is violated. My common sense has asserted itself and is refusing to take any more abuse.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
115 03/23/06 6:19 AM | Comment Link |Jayson B.:
Comment by: Jayson B.
116 03/23/06 6:31 AM | Comment Link |Bruce, I believe the wise P.W. Herman sai