Atheist Seeks Advice

Comment by: TXatheist

I’d follow Daz’s advice. Each church and person is different. If someone confronts you remain calm and pardon yourself. If they follow you or harass, leave

Comment by: Ir

Eliza, can you tell us anything about what sort of church it is? Do they believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God? Do they emphasize having a “personal relationship with Jesus?” How much emphasis do they place on MTWABP? I figure you know something about them from reading their message board. Perhaps you could give the URL of their site — but I understand if you don’t want to because you don’t want to disclose where you live.

Anyway, whatever type of church it is I have a couple of general comments. It usually takes time to get into meaningful relationships — people need to earn each others’ trust and respect. Sometimes it takes patience and perseverance to move someone beyond their stereotypical presuppositions about you.

When you started posting on this blog, some groundwork had already been laid which males this blog more of a place where atheists are accepted and heard than many other places where Christians post. I’m not saying it’s perfect but it’s definitely better some other places I’ve been. In this church you may be the one laying the first foundation of meaningful contact between Christians and atheists.

Perhaps this sort of approach might work: “I’m not looking to join a church right now, but I would like to get to know some of you (better). I’m interested in ways I can help out the local community and I’m wondering if there are some projects you do that I can participate in.”

If anyone is pushy about wanting you to discuss their beliefs or read a Christian book or attend a Bible study, perhaps you might even be open to something along those lines on an ‘equal time’ basis. For example you could say “Tonight I just want to get to know people, but I’m open to hearing about your beliefs at another time if you don’t mind hearing about mine. I’ll read that book if you read this one - when we’re finished we can get together and discuss them both.”

I would say that managing your expectations is key (as I find it is in most situations in life, actually). You might go and not feel that a great deal is achieved tomorrow, but perhaps it will be the first step towards many things for you and that church community, including them gaining a much better understanding of what atheists are like.

I like Daz’s point - I think that telling them about OTM’s site and its role in motivating you to go to the supper might be an interesting talking point :).

Comment by: Ir

TXBill wrote: As a Christian it makes me sad to think that people might fear coming to a “community supper” at their neighborhood church.

Hi TXBill,

I didn’t see fear mentioned, actually.

From time to time I get invited to those ‘parties’ - Pampered Chef, whatever. My inclination is not to go, because although they are portrayed as social events, the intention is to get me to buy something and I feel awkward about going when I already know I have zero intentions of buying anything.

I’m not afraid of going, but I generally don’t for the reason I just stated.

Comment by: Ron

I have found that honest truely is the best policy. Of course you don’t want to volunteer that you are an atheist or in the minds of some Christians you are just placing a target on your back. If they ask then tell them the truth in as honest a way as possible. I have also noticed that when people ask questions that breaks down others defenses and so you might try asking them questions.

You could also throw a loop in their thinking and kill them with kindness. If they say something like, “Has anyone ever shared the message of Jesus with you” [Or a variance of that question]? You could say, “Absolutely, and you know that is one thing that I have really loved about this church in my research is that no one has tried to do that. Everyone has just treated me with love and kindness and I think that has spoken to me more than any conversion speach could.”

Psychologically, they won’t know which way is up and they will most likely start treating you with even more love and respect because in their minds you have just told them what works for you.

Comment by: Ir

Actually the church I was at has a low-cost dinner on Wednesday every week, followed by children’s club and adult Bible classes and there is no program at all during the dinner. People line up to get their food then sit wherever they like. Now, it’s possible that someone from the church might sit next to you and try to talk to you about their beliefs, but since people can come and go as they like, there isn’t even a beginning with an organized ‘prayer’. The only announcements I ever remember are that it’s someone’s birthday that day.

I suppose the hope is that people who go for dinner will stay for the classes, but no-one has to commit to that.

Comment by: Ir

“Who is it aimed at?” is a good question.

Comment by: Jim Henderson

Eliza

Would you please post your community dinner survey thoughts here afterwords?

Comment by: Rick L in TX

THere’s a lot of wisdom in the comments here. I like what Daz says about mentioning OTM; I like Bruce’s remark although you might wish to drop the “yet” since including “yet” implies “I’m headed there but have not yet arrived”, whereas your sense of self might be more like “I’m here to find common ground, with no necessary assumptions about my personal spiritual journey implied”.

I like Ir’s suggestion of phrase, and I really like Ron’s. I have to say, if someone came to the suppers we have at our church and said that to me, I think most of the people would respond positively and not pushy or sales-y. I know I would welcome you without the sales pitch.

My few suggestions probably aren’t quite as excellent as those, but here they are.

I am inclined to suggest a polite non-commital along with your personal prior strategy. If asked a direct question, perhaps “I am not at all convinced that there is a God, nor am I seeking to become convinced, But I am interested in exploring whether there is value for me in meeting and having conversations with people who are convinced… perhaps even serving the needs of the community side by side.”

Another alternative is to politely deflect by saying, if matters of “spirituality recruitment” come up, “I’m really not interested in having that conversation right now”.

Comment by: Daz

Or Eliza could say that she is looking for a meaningful and compassionate spirituality that does not contradict the accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the human experience.

Comment by: Daz

TXatheist,
A Texas church supper party!
http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2004-10-08/food_feature.html

Comment by: TXatheist

ok, I spoke with a very kind lady at 512-476-2314 and the event is the first weekend of October. $5 for a meal? I’m there:) They have food, folk dancing and beer/wine.

Comment by: Cully

When I was in grad school I used to attend the weekly church suppers provided by the campus churches. $1 for buffet style spaghetti, salad, bread and ice cream. How does a poor student say no? They would say grace before the meal, and announce the times and subjects of the week’s sermons (there were several divided by denomination). Beyond that there was a rack of Christian themed brochures by the door but no one ever mentioned church or religion in any other way. Maybe it was the interdenominational nature of the meal, or the fact that it was geared at college kids so they had to soft sell a little bit… but I never felt uncomfortable or preached at while there. Based on that experience, it’s my bet that you won’t be questioned on anything beyond “What church do you attend?” and it’ll be up to you where to take it from there.

Comment by: Tom in Sacramento

Eliza, go! By all means. At least, this would be my encouragement if you are at all extroverted and/or are interested in the learning that only comes from engaging people. And then, please do write and let us know what you encounter.

I have an ulterior motive. I am a Christian and a Muslim friend here on campus has invited me to go to a “community dinner” with him. I can hardly wait. I had to miss the last one because we were out of town and they only do these once a month or so. So it’d be great to be able to compare notes.

My contribution to your collection of advice: Just be yourself. My sense of who you are, from your posting here, is that you are not a raving, strident, in-your-face person, but rather just a nice, pleasant person who, upon deeper investigation disagrees with me on some matters of belief but probably agrees with me on many matters of practical living. Just be that person.

In my experience, in most Christian circles when a new person shows up everyone sort of assumes that you share their beliefs….otherwise why would you be there? So let them live with their assumption. No harm, no foul.

Tom in Sacramento

Comment by: Eliza

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful & useful tips! I wonder if it will look funny if I bring along a crib sheet with all the great ideas mentioned here. :) I’m not extroverted but will try to engage in some conversation without getting whirled up in a convert-o-matic experience - I’m not going just to get some free food (as I might have as a graduate student!) but would like to try to connect a bit w/ some people. TXathiest - can I borrow your T-shirt?

I hadn’t thought to check their website, my duh. Their website gives the church’s name as Prince of Peace Evangelical Lutheran Church, though interestingly the sign outside doesn’t include the word “Evangelical”. Their website says that people of every religious and nonreligious background are welcome to visit. They seem interested in social justice and helping in the community (and world) but also committed to spreading the word. Their March calendar shows a Lenten service after the community supper, so maybe the hope is people will attend the service after the meal.

Assuming I get there tomorrow night (which I plan to do!) I will indeed report back.

Comment by: Jessica

I meant not an extrovert. Sorry.

I hope you can go to the supper Eliza, the food is usually really good at those things. My favorites have been killer BBQ with brisket done right.

Comment by: Siamang

The link to the main story didn’t take. Here it is.

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania

Okay, I have a thought that might be very different… If I were you I wouldn’t go to this event. “Community supper” implies that it is a very “in-focused” event. I could be wrong, but that’s what the name implies to me. (Our church doesn’t do many of these for the reasons I’m about to detail.) This means that, for you, as an outsider…

1. Everyone will know everybody else, which will call UNDUE attention to you as an outsider.

2. There will be an unspoken assumption that everyone is a believer, which won’t necessarily be true at their weekend service, which means that

3. You may get a skewed impression of the way they treat ousiders.

In short, you might not actually learn much about them, just about how awful they CAN be…

Yes, the good part about it is, if you go, you might see Xians at their worst, in terms of relating to those outside their circle. The bad part is, when they are at their best, they might be accepting and loving… but you might never know that…

One more thing, if I was a BELIEVER and I was interested in joining this church, I STILL wouldn’t go to an event like this ’till I knew people. It would simply be too awkward.

Just my $.02. I hope it provokes discussion.

Comment by: Donkey Kong

Why would you want to go to an event like this in the first place. It makes me want to put my foo up your ass!

Comment by: Ir

You’re a bit of a one-string violinist, Donkey Kong, aren’t you? I feel sorry for your foo (or foot) :)

Comment by: TXatheist

Ir,
If I may offer my opinion:) don’t feed the troll and he’ll leave of boredom.

Comment by: TXatheist

Ir,
You are asking me to be vulnerable? I gotta think about the wording, I’ll just say the prejudice hurts for now.

Comment by: TXBill

Ir:

You said:

“From time to time I get invited to those ‘parties’ - Pampered Chef, whatever. My inclination is not to go, because although they are portrayed as social events, the intention is to get me to buy something and I feel awkward about going when I already know I have zero intentions of buying anything.”

Exactly. Once when my wife and I were new to a town we were invited to another couple’s house for dinner. We thought the purpose was to get acquainted. After we got there we found out the purpose of the gathering was for an Amway presentation. When we asked why we weren’t told in advance the response was “We knew you wouldn’t come if you knew.”

It took us a long time to repair the relationship with that couple.

I don’t believe that this situation normally applies to church suppers - one might suspect that spiritual matters will be discussed formally or informally. A lot depends on knowing what the “program” will be, and hopefully the church will not misrepresent that.

Anyway, I guess the word “fear” was too strong - “anxious” would have been better to describe the emotion we’re both thinking of.

Thanks for the insight.

Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania

Ir writes “For what it’s worth, why would an ‘outsider’ see believers at their worst at a gathering where there’s an expectation of no visitors being present?” Sadly, I believe in most churches I’ve experienced, yes. However, in many, including the one I serve in, we would be happy (and non-judgemental) if someone who didn’t share our faith came. And yes, I was making assumptions based on the name of the event. But I think they’re assumptions that may bear up.

If this individual goes to this event… I sure do want to hear about it!

Comment by: Tom in Sacramento

Eliza,
Another thought; If you sense the conversation going somewhere you aren’t comfortable with as far as self-disclosure, turn the tables. After using Ir’s line about, “I just wanted to meet you” try this. (I use it with people at our church I haven’t met before.) 1. Have you been coming here long? 2. Why did you choose this church? 3. What do you like about it?

Those kind of questions will turn the light on them and give you the chance to learn about them.

Tom in Sacramento

Comment by: Siamang

Tom, to my knowledge Newdow hasn’t called for the assasination of any world leaders. To my knowledge he hasn’t blamed 9/11 on anyone other than the terrorists. He hasn’t said that all the Jews who don’t convert are going to Hell. He hasn’t said that AIDS is the wrath of a just God against gays, and to fight AIDS would be like an Israelite jumping into the red sea to save the Pharaoh’s charioteers.

All Newdow has done is to bring a lawsuit on behalf of his daughter, and he argued his own case all the way to the supreme court. That’s impressive. In the pure sense of just standing up for what you believe, Newdow has done that, you’ve got to give it to him. The man recieves death-threats for bringing his case. Just for petitioning the government and saying “listen to my point of view, Justices, then you get to decide as the appointed voice of the Law. But first, listen to my point of view.”

That he’s villified even by you, Tom, is surprising to me. Please illuminate me as to why you think he’s comparable. When you talk about doing good stuff in the communities and hospitals, did you know that Newdow is a doctor who saves lives in the ER?

Is he really a half-wit? I mean, maybe you’ve read more about him than I have. Maybe living closer to him, they cover him more in the papers. Atheists argue over whether he’s pissing people off more than he’s helping us. But I’m not sure that it’s his fault that people are angry. I think people’s distrust of atheists started before anyone heard the name Newdow, and will last long after he’s been forgotten.

Was it MLK’s fault that people were racist against blacks? Rosa Parks’? Isn’t Newdow just one man who stood up and said “enough!”? Agree, disagree, he’s not attacking anyone. He’s not demeaning anyone. He’s not calling anyone names or villifying them. He’s just arguing his point.

Comment by: Ir

Tom wrote: After using Ir’s line about, “I just wanted to meet you” try this. (I use it with people at our church I haven’t met before.) 1. Have you been coming here long? 2. Why did you choose this church? 3. What do you like about it?

Good point, Tom - asking them questions about themselves is a good way to take back control of the conversation if Eliza doesn’t like where it’s going. Most people like talking about themselves so it usually works :) And as you (Tom) also said, their answers will help Eliza get to know them.

Comment by: TXatheist

Tom,
I’ll have to disagree that our FF were xian. Washington didn’t partake of communion because the hypocrisy he knew that entailed. Adams, Jefferson were Deists or Unitarian. Thomas Paine wrote a wonderful book on xianity and it’s negativity called The Age of Reason. The big liar who pertuates the lie is Burton at wallbuilders.com. His site has been thoroughly found to be false but hey why not perpetuate the lie that we were founded by xians when most people want that lie to be true. http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm
Jefferson rewrote the bible known as the Jefferson bible which I completely agree with. It’s a moral guide but supernatural ideas are absent because he didn’t buy it. TJ denied Jesus as a supernatural deity. Thomas Jefferson had drafted The Virginia Act for Establishing Religious Freedom in 1779 three years after he wrote the Declaration of Independence. The Dec of Ind preamble says Nature’s god and the Laws of Nature because Deists acknowledge Nature as god and vice/versa. The only mention of Jesus is none but the year of signatures says the year of our Lord. The act was not passed by the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia until 1786. Jefferson was by then in Paris as the U.S. Ambassador to France. The Act was resisted by a group headed by Patrick Henry(The ONLY xian) who sought to pass a bill that would have assessed all the citizens of Virginia to support a plural establishment. James Madison’s Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments was, and remains, a powerful argument against state supported religion. It was written in 1785, just a few months before the General Assembly passed Jefferson’s religious freedom bill. The only mention of religion in our Constitution is exclusions of what religion can do. No religious test and freedom of religion are consistent and the separation of church and state was an elabortion on the Establishment Clause to the Danbury Baptists from TJ because the Anglicans were torturing baptists and they wanted TJ to secure their fears of persecution. I agree with Newdow because the original paper currency didn’t have In god we trust and the Pledge didn’t have under god. It was changed by christian pressure, imo.

Comment by: TXatheist

Stephan,
Will you ask all christians to stop making unfounded claims also? I realize that may come across as ridiculous to some but to say Newdow is not a great American or the FF were xian only ostracizes atheists and that’s part of our image problem. When history is rewritten and we try to show how it was before the revisionists took over we take the heat.

Comment by: TXatheist

Stephan,
And meetings can still have prayer, just not sectarian.( In Jesus name we pray..amen) The bible was taught and still is. This was before the big bang and evolution were known. Arkansas fought evolution until 1987 and Georgia just last year took off the sticker on textbooks saying evolution is controversial.(It’s not controversial among scientists other than they want to prove it more factually everyday with more knowledge and research but it’s fact to them) The 10 Commandment monuments were put up at capitol buildings in the 60’s with the release of the movie(by the way ABC is airing that remake in 2 weeks). It wasn’t until 60 years ago when the problem began that christians thought it was ok to post such stuff in public buildings such as schools and capitols. The fact the Constitution was violated with such things and finally is being reversed doesn’t make the original violations acceptable. The 10c monument at the TX capitol in Austin for example. Attorney General Greg Abbott said it has been there 40 years unchallenged. That is an absolute lie as the Atheist Community of Austin has requested formally for years for it’s removal. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Comment by: Siamang

Tom wrote:

And most people who care about religion are concerned that there is way, way, way too much atheism or “areligion” in government.

Can I ask the question: WHICH religion? WHO decides?

And the people who think the opposite way are concerned that there’s too much. In other words, we’re unpopular because we’re unpopular.

Can I say that we’re unpopular because the majority is too fixated on “my way or the highway?” We know WHICH religion the majority will choose to insert into government.

There is a contingent of religious people who think that to argue the virtue of government being neutral on the issue of religion is in itself an attack on their religion.

And to those people, atheists will always be “the enemy.”

Comment by: Eliza

I didn’t get to the supper (crisis at work at the end of the day, and childcare issues) but I did go to the evening “Lenten service” tonight at this same evangelical Lutheran church. I’ll put together my observations and post them here by tomorrow PM.

Comment by: NCxian

Siamang:

No apology necessary at all. I was just offering a caveat, and the issue of separation of church and state is a good place to do it because there is such a variety of opinion among religious people.

I realize that the nature of this conversation is that it almost requires us to say “Atheists believe” or “Christians believe”. We can’t account for all variations with every comment or our posts would all be 50 lines long. But I think we do need to always be aware that we may be painting with mighty broad stokes. And that, for instance, what Tom may say “most people who care about religion” are concerned about may not be anything that I, an individual who cares about religion, am concerned about.
(In fact, in this case, I am concerned about the increasing erosion of the separation between church and state. This is a concern shared by many in my tradition).

Tom, I am not trying to pick on you at all. It is just a good place to remind everybody about the limits to the role we are playing as representatives of folks who share our faith position.

Siamang: I am touched by your concern about your daughter and I have a picture in my mind of her saying the pledge “Under God” and how that will affect your family. I think I will feel less apathetic about that question, given that I can better empathize with your position now.

Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania

Siamang says [Can I say that we're unpopular because the majority is too fixated on "my way or the highway?" We know WHICH religion the majority will choose to insert into government.]

Yes… Too many of those same Xians you are implying forget what Jesus’ example was on this. Here’s a question. If the Jesus in the Bible was threatened by the governments and institutions of his day, how would he respond? Oh, wait… I remember… He’d die on a cross! (There, for you atheists out there, next time one of those Xian bigots –not me, mind you– starts in your face with their militant political agenda… remind them that Jesus didn’t have ANY political agenda.

Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania

Jesus really dug the outsiders, too. They were his favorites.

Comment by: Eliza

I went to the evening “Lenten Service” last night at the Prince of Peace Evangelical Lutheran Church a few blocks from my house. I missed the evening supper, which turns out to be offered most Wednesdays & co-sponsored by the local YMCA. (There are signs up welcoming “all” to those suppers, both on the door and inside the church.)

The church sits on a corner, 2 stories tall with no windows or decoration on the 2 outside walls facing the 2 streets. The large room where services are held (there must be a word for this but I can’t remember it) is inside that corner, well-kept and spacious but interestingly it has no windows, & no stained glass. The only decorations were at/near the altar, mainly a big wooden cross. It was plainer inside than any church I’ve seen, but that didn’t detract. There were no video screens; this was not a multimedia event. This Wednesday evening Lenten service drew ~20 people, age ~late 40’s to ~80’s, all white (not unlike the surrounding neighborhood). Sunday services are undoubtedly larger; our group sat on one side & didn’t fill 10% of the capacity of the pews. The service lasted a little over 30 minutes, with about 2/3 of the time spent singing. A woman stood at a podium and led the hymns, which the group seemed familiar with. The songs were pretty, especially one that was sung as a round, but the ideas expressed in the lyrics seemed repetitive to me (even though the actual words varied - it was as if someone went through with a thesaurus). The several hymns repeatedly described God as great, mighty, and the creator of all, and Jesus as gentle and “the light”, plus stressed that “we” were praying to and praising him (with him variously meaning God, Jesus, and the Lord, which I understand are intertwined in the trinity but always just seems weird to me). One hymn repeated “It is right to give God thanks and praise” several times. Repetition helps consolidate the message, I guess. One hymn described the Holy Spirit as love, another as salvation, which struck this outsider as a quite pliable view of this nebulous concept. There was a short section of one hymn which related the Annunciation from Luke 1:46, Mary saying “I am the servant of my God. I live to do your will” (similar message as the congregation was singing in the other hymns, to my ear). Otherwise, nothing about the life of Jesus, which I had thought was often a theme during Lenten services (shows how much I know).

In the middle of the hymns, there was a break for the pastor to speak, from the podium. She explained she was going to give a reading from Numbers about the Bronze Serpent, that this was one of the readings for the upcoming Sunday’s service but that there was not as much of a chance to go into depth on it on Sunday (when there are several readings, according to website and her comments). (In front of each pew were a couple of church books, but no Bible to follow along. I had thought of bringing mine, wished then that I had.) She commented that their women’s Bible study group had been listing sins in the letters of Paul, James, etc, and those teachings all started off with “fornication” — she then repeated “fornication” several times, which made me wonder whether she was trying to send a message to some of the congregation to stop some particular extracurricular activities, or perhaps repeating it was just a way to get people’s attention. She briefly listed some other sins (drunkenness, idolatry, greed), then did the reading, Numbers 21:4-9, in which the Israelites are impatient and dying in the wilderness with no water and “worthless food”; they speak against God and Moses and “the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, and many people of Israel died.” She then explained that in that story, complaining was the “sin,” and commented that complaining only seems bad when someone else does it (so true!). She interpreted the Numbers story for us saying modern psychology explained that the venomous snakes were actually a projection of the Israelites complaining. God wasn’t the problem — the problem was people complaining. In fact, God was the one who saved the Israelites by coming up with the solution (the Bronze Serpent, which they could look at and live). She interpreted the Bronze Serpent as a way to lift up God’s own word, which she says binds us together and breaks down walls (thus stopping complaining). She told the congregation, “God does not complain about you” (which I as an atheist have no trouble believing; but how would someone who believes in God verify this? Especially an Israelite in the wilderness as described in Numbers?). She gave out a sheet of short prayers to use when one found oneself complaining (actually, “whenever you think of someone you want to forgive, bless, or reconcile with” — not the same thing as complaining, in my experience, but I’m probably not approaching complaints in the most positive way I could).

The service closed with people turning to one another and saying “Peace be with you” (reply: “and also with you”), which always seemed to me a nice ritual, if people mean it & aren’t just saying it by rote. The pastor clearly recognized me as a stranger, made something of a beeline for me at the end, greeted me as above, then asked me to “remind” her of my name. She seemed like a no-nonsense type of person, an iron-fist-in-kid-glove person. I gave my name and said I was a neighbor who had just wanted to stop by, then left in a panic before I had to make more conversation.

The funniest part was walking out of the church into a huge, dense cloud of cigarette smoke, as ~25 people gathered outside for a 12-step program that meets Wednesday evenings at that church. I got the sense it wasn’t a smoking cessation group.

At home, I read part of Numbers. The Israelites faced hardship after hardhip. In Numbers 11:1, “the people complained…and when the Lord heard it, his anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them” [literally - part of the camp burned down]. In Numbers 12:1-10, Miriam and Aaron speak against Moses and God calls them out to a meeting and talks to them and (before they say anything back) “the anger of the Lord was kindled against them” and “…behold, Miriam was leprous” (she dies in chapter 20). In Numbers 14:12, God says “…I will strike them [the ungrateful Israelites] with the pestilence and disinherit them…” In Numbers 16, about 15,000 people die (though it’s enough of a soap opera that I can’t tell if those were Israelites or not, though it seems like they were, and anyway should it matter?). Then comes the section she read and interpreted….through deeply rose-colored glasses imo, to make the message fit better with the view that “God is mercy” (another recurrent theme of the hymns).

I was struck by how very different this 30 minute service was other situation I’ve been in where a bunch of adults sit and listen to (learn from) an adult at a podium in front of them. I finally realized that, for me, this service shared a lot with a political rally. Clearly, the noise level was much lower, and the speaker wasn’t trying to drum up votes, but there were the same themes of (1) repeating simple, positive ideas/slogans which the crowd of believers already agrees with, (2) presenting a limited chunk of information with a partisan “slant,” and (3) encouraging adoration and agreement, but leaving no opening for questions or dissent. In every one of my prior “adult audience” experience, at least since college and certainly at (scientific) conferences and public lectures, speakers have always been available for questions, clarifications, reasonably-worded challenges and differing interpretations, as long as those don’t co-opt the event. In my field, it would be totally unacceptable for a speaker not to allow discussion.

A couple of other things that confuse me: Isn’t fasting (or at least giving up some favorite food) usually part of Lent - & how does that fit with having church suppers during Lent? (Maybe the grub at these suppers during Lent is purposefully non-pleasurable food.) Lent also confuses me, no Biblical basis yet a traditional Christian observance, but that’s OK, we don’t have to go there. Also: I have never understood why two pagan events — the vernal equinox and a full moon — are used to determine when Easter occurs. Shouldn’t Easter (the Resurrection) be 3 or 4 days after Passover, since the Last Supper was a Passover seder? (Rhetorical questions…)

Comment by: Ir

p.s. I meant to say, thanks for your comments, Eliza! :)

Comment by: Siamang

Thanks, Eliza.

Heck, while you’re asking questions about Easter, ask a christian where the word Easter comes from. It ain’t the bible!

It’s named after the pagan fertility goddess Eostre!

Hmmm… rabbits and eggs…. fertility…. it all makes sense!

Comment by: NCxian

Eliza:

Thanks for sharing your impressions!

I am smitten with your comparison of a worship service to a political rally. I think you are on to something there. I think some key phrases in your description is “a crowd of believers already agrees with” and “adoration”. Which is arguably what a worship service is supposed to be about, so of course, it is like a political rally! I know that the next I go to a political rally, I will be asking myself how much it is like a worship service.

It is also especially interesting to hear your description of a worship service, after having heard Hemant’s description of a prayer meeting. The two events have very different purposes and so look, to outsiders and insiders, very different. There are also things called variously “small group”, “spiritual formation”, etc. where the Q & A is more likely to take place.

Yesterday, I suggested that prayer might be the topic that Christians have the most questions about, and are most tolerant of questions about. Today, I would add that worship is probably the topic that congregations/denominations ARGUE about the most, internally. But unless you want to see a Christian brawl, we should not go there.

[No Christians read this, because I don’t want to start the brawl, but Eliza, when we do the highly repetitive contemporary “praise hymns” in my congregation, and I have sung the line “God is so Good” for the umpteenth time, I become possessed by a demon who makes me want to shout, “SECOND VERSE, SAME AS THE FIRST, A LITTLE BIT LOUDER AND A WHOLE LOT WORSE”!

Comment by: skikid

NCxian…
I read the last sentence and um… ok that is usually when I check out and my attention goes else where.

Eliza…
Good points… its really interesting to read. For what its worth when I go to church we do a question and answer time after the sermon. The questions are usually really frank, I think that it might make some pastors nervous though (or so I have been told).

Comment by: NCxian

skikid:

When does your attention go elsewhere?

Comment by: NCxian

. . . . . Mm?

Comment by: skikid

NCxian~
Repetitive songs or parts of the liturgy that I no longer have to think about to do.