Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 03.22.2006 /
Tonight was the “Wednesday Prayer Meeting” at Moody Church, which is connected with the Moody Bible Institute and all other things Moody in Chicago. It is non-denominational and Christian.
I don’t think I’ve ever felt more relieved to be an Atheist.
First, some background. I’ve said before that I don’t think people should pray for petty, materialistic things; if you’re praying, pray for the “right” reasons (I think you can use common sense to figure out what I mean by that).
Also, please understand that I don’t think praying for someone random helps. If you are going through a stressful time, prayer can definitely calm you down (if you are a believer). If people are sick and they hear that they are being prayed for, I do think this can help them feel better. It relaxes their bodies and they feel better, emotionally and physically. But if I’m told to pray for Bob in Alaska, and Bob doesn’t know this, I don’t think that does anything. In fact, studies have shown the positive effects of prayer in the first two cases. But never in the latter case. (If you’d like to argue this point, I’ll be posting a thread on my blog at www.ebayatheist.blogspot.com about it. Go there.)
Why do I bring all this up? Because most of tonight was focused on praying for people who don’t know they are being prayed for. Which, as I said, has never been shown to have an effect. And the other objects of peoples’ prayers were just irrelevent. Let me give you examples of prayer requests from tonight’s program:
Please pray for:
– “Success for 4th Annual Easter Egg Hunt on April 15th”
– “Purchase of Lower North building from [Chicago Housing Authority]”
– “Jonathon’s friends who are having marital problems”
– “Cheryl’s husband Mark who is spiritually apathetic”
– “Wisdom for Tom”
– “John [last name omitted] who is dying and does not know the Lord…”
– “Anonymous believer with an unspoken request” (?!?!?!?!?!?!)
– (My personal favorite) “Anonymous who is ill and cannot sleep due to neighbor playing loud music, wants a home of her own and a Christian mate”
Lovely. I will go home and pray for… anonymous. These were all serious prayer requests. Many were well-intentioned and I could understand the reason for wanting the well-wishes. But so many requests seemed to be made by people who really believe an “Urgent health need” is Judy, who has a pulled hamstring.C’mon! There are people who could *really* use help, even if it’s only spiritual. When I read these things, I just felt like no one wanted to do anything or take any responsibility for themselves. Everything must be taken care of by God. (Which seems paradoxical, because if God will take care of everything, there would be no reason to pray…) I also kept picturing the shocked look on their faces that must appear every time they meet an Atheist who doesn’t believe that prayer does anything. I doubt they consider that point of view.
The group of people that were there (~50 of them, of all races and ages) were genuinely good people, who felt they were doing all they could to spread the Gospel of Jesus. I say this because many of them spoke about their ministries and missionary trips and you could tell how passionate they were.
The downside of this was that there was a *lot* of talk about missionary trips to Africa and nearby locales, where there are significant numbers of Muslim people. I’ve never heard such hateful talk about Islam. One woman said how only Jesus could “break the bondage over [the Muslims'] minds.” Another woman said how she has Muslim friends whom she sends Christmas and Easter cards to annually to bring Christ into their lives. Someone mentioned how the Muslim people are “eager to learn English and learn about the word of God” (which, by my last check, did not refer to Jesus). In fact, we even said a prayer for Islamic countries in general. Look, I understand that there some difference of opinion between Christians and Muslims. But outside the few extremists who ruin the name of both faiths, why do missionaries have to convert anyone who believes in something different? Forget what the Bible may say about spreading the word of God– these people are not hurting you or stopping you. Stop interfering with their lives! (If you want the Atheist perspective, it makes no sense to convert people who believe in a different invisible man than you do… ) And yet, the people speaking tonight felt it was their duty to “save” these people who were *obviously* mistaken. It just upset me. If Muslim people came to your city and tried to convert you, there would be an uproar. I’m not trying to knock down missionaries who improve a village in ruins, bring medicine, and really help some people who could use it. But if you want to help them, do those things. Send food. Send water. Send medicine. But from what I gathered tonight, these missionaries were simply going abroad to “fix” people whom I don’t believe were broken in the first place. And this was all topped off by a prayer request to God: “Muslims are people. They need Your love.” *sigh* How is this type of fundamental thinking any different from the people they are trying to save for being so blinded by their own beliefs?
For the record, it wasn’t just Islamic countries that needed saving. A missionary to Bulgaria asked for us to pray for the country to “overcome any Satanic obstacle.” Bulgaria is 85% Christian Orthodox (http://www.bcci.bg/bulgaria.htm). I think even by the missionary’s standards, there’s no problem there…
The pastor did try to answer the main question in my mind (How do you know the prayers are answered?), because he told the congregation how he knew the prayers were working– He may not have been able to see them working… but he believed in them. So there. I don’t know if they consider the idea that the “prayers are working” might just be in their heads. I’d be curious to know if the thought ever comes to mind.
For what it’s worth, while I don’t take much stock in the prayer requests, I was surprised to see a lot of people taking notes. I glanced over at the notebook of the girl sitting next to me and she was actually writing down the prayer requests. I assume she will actually look over this list at home and pray for these people. Which did make me feel a little better, since I thought at first no one would remember all these requests. I wondered who prays for “anonymous.” Clearly, many people do, because she wasn’t the only person writing down the requests.
In a nutshell, this type of service drew me away from any type of belief. Because it just seemed like everyone was praying for the wrong reasons. And by the same token, the praises were also misplaced. In the program we’re supposed to say “Thanks Be to God… that Andre’s [Last name omitted] tumor has shrunk significantly.” Thanks be to God? Doesn’t the medicine he took have *anything* to do with it?! It just makes no sense to me to say that God does *everything* and we must thank Him for anything that happens to anyone ever.
Case in point: The pastor told a story about a friend whose business was struggling. To make his friend feel better, the pastor said to him: What if God wanted it to be this way? The friend immediately felt better. Again, maybe his business is struggling for a variety of reasons. I don’t know why. But attributing all things good and bad to God is not helping anyone learn anything. I think it’s just taking away the notion of being responsible for your own actions.
I would much rather see the people praying less and doing more. I’m not trying to be insensitive. I know there’s only so much science can currently do to cure a sick patient. But some of the things that we prayed for tonight were not useful at all.
I never thought I’d say this, but I look forward to going back to a regular church service.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
1Hemants observations of a “classic evangelical prayer meeting” ought to be required reading for every pastor who cares about connecting with non/un believers
Rather than defending prayer or explaining to Hemant the nucances of what these Christians were “really doing” or reminding us that they are really good people (which I agree they are)
Ask some interesting questions
Heres one - Since no one can prove or disprove the efficacy of the act of praying how can you be so sure that there prayers were in fact not being answered - What meaningful proof does an atheist have that could disuade someo one from praying.
Heres another
Since most of our lives are inundated with the mundane - like needing a parkign space, money or health - why would a reasonable person tell us that praying for those things is not important - What if the god we believe in cares about small and ordianry stuff - since you dont believe in god at all why should it bother an ahteist what we pray for
Heres another one…
Since most people in most cultures pray (I think this can be proven statistically)whether Christians/Muslims/Jews/Hindus are you suggesting that all of us are unusual and atheists are normal? On what basis do you make that claim?
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
2what do you think makes a worthy prayer or a worthwhile prayer meeting, Hemant?
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
3by the way, i think you deserve some kind of extra reward for going to a prayer meeting. for some reason they can sometimes get, um, well, boring.
thanks for your effort in going and reporting back to us.
Comment by: Siamang
4Until this moment, I didn’t really know what a prayer meeting was all about. So I learned at least something. Sorry it was a turn-off for you, Hemant.
Comment by: Siamang
5I once saw a wierd new age cult perform a prayer where they were attempting to call God to protect the United States of America from any possible nuclear war. This was back during the cold war with the USSR.
Immediately I felt this was an immoral prayer. Who would call on God to protect themselves and specifically exclude asking for His protection of others?
It gives me a wierd picture of what prayer is, and where it’s directed. It’s almost like petitioning the Godfather for something. He might actually do it. But He’ll say “Someday - and that day may never come - I’ll call upon you to do a service for me.”
I don’t quite get the magic spell approach to prayer. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. But I don’t understand WHY it should work. What happens, God looks at you and your needs in that moment and says “What the heck. Okay, I’ll give the kid a break. Let him live a few more years, what do I care? Half of the coast of Australia may be wiped out in a cyclone, but I’m going to intercede instead because of the prayer of Francine, so that her brother Tony gets a better job and stops hanging around the pool hall.”
Prayer used to seem so much more mystical, meditative and ineffable. Hemnant’s report makes it seem banal.
Someone please assure me that they use prayer to transcend this world and get in touch with the divine. I sincerely hope so, because Hemant’s report makes it sound like folks are handing God a list of earmarks for the next congressional budget.
Comment by: Frank Bartunek
6Hm, it’s not so much that prayers for mundane things are evil, but it seems bizzare to speak to the supposed creator of the universe and then ask for attention to things that are cosmically infintessimal. It would be like asking the president of the united states to come help me look for a lost bottlecap.
Somewhere in the bible, it claims that God keeps track of every sparrow, every hair on people’s heads. I know from 3d modeling that trying to imitate the millions of strands of hair is at best maddening.
From an atheist’s perspective, God is often depicted as both too big and too small at the same time to be readily understood.
And now I have confused myself. :?
Comment by: Florence
7Siamang, yes, one uses prayer to get in touch with God all the time! I pray quite often with the specific purpose of “connecting” with God. I actually have to pray in that way. For me it is the only consistent road to a place of peace when I feel under the gun in some way. (And that happens a lot.) One also hopes to get closer to Him, to “know” Him in a similar way to the way one knows people whom we are close to. I think He wants to make Himself known to us.
There’s another kind of theory about the “request” kind of prayer that I have believed for quite some time. That is, God Himself has an agenda. For each of us. :) If we can find out what His agenda is, for ourselves or someone else, and pray in that direction, things can start happening. I have experienced this to a small degree and I think there is a much bigger degree out there!
Regards.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
8Siamang says [Prayer used to seem so much more mystical, meditative and ineffable. Hemnant's report makes it seem banal.] As a Christian… I could’t agree more. But my Bible also tells me that God delights in hearing my requests and answering them. So… it’s a delicate balance. Loved your story about the group praying to defend the US from Russia. Sounds like the Pharisee in the Bible praying “Thank you, God, that I’m not like that stinkin’ tax collector over there.”
btw, Hemant, although you may be predisposed to disbelieve them, there actually have been clinical studies on intercessory prayer (even from a distance), and although they are not perfect, their data may be seen as compelling. here’s an interesting debate on one of these studies. I’ve seen a better one, but can’t locate it on the web.
http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/
Comment by: Ir
9Prayer is a great topic for this blog — I’m glad it’s been introduced with Hemant’s latest visit. Wow, you really didn’t like the prayer meeting, did you, Hemant? : ) This seems like the most negative report you’ve written so far.
Not that it really matters, but — although lots of people assume they are connected, they are in fact two independent organizations, each with their own leadership. They have similar beliefs and a friendly relationship and were both founded by DL Moody but neither owns or runs the other.
there was a *lot* of talk about missionary trips to Africa and nearby locales…I’ve never heard such hateful talk about Islam. One woman said how only Jesus could “break the bondage over [the Muslims'] minds.” Another woman said how she has Muslim friends whom she sends Christmas and Easter cards to annually to bring Christ into their lives. Someone mentioned how the Muslim people are “eager to learn English and learn about the word of God” (which, by my last check, did not refer to Jesus).
Did you realize you went during their annual missions conference? The prayer meeting you attended is described on their website as a “Special Missionary Prayer Service”.
Going to a prayer meeting during missions conference is a great way to hear how Christians talk about people who aren’t Christians ‘behind their backs’ as Jim might say. Because Christians wouldn’t expect people who aren’t Christians to bother to go to a prayer meeting, so I daresay they were assuming everyone there last night was a Christian and therefore like-minded.
What’s hateful about the woman saying she sends Christmas and Easter cards to her Muslim friends to try to bring them to Christ?
I’m not sure why you felt that way, Hemant. They might be doing everything in their power to take responsibility for themselves in addition to asking for God’s help in prayer (or asking others to pray). If I heard that you went to the doctor because you were sick, I wouldn’t think “Oh, he must have given up all responsibility for taking care of his own health.”
If you had written “when I read these things I felt concerned that these people might be substituting prayer for taking responsibility for themselves” then I would heartily agree that that’s a valid concern. But since you don’t know them, you don’t actually know that they are. And my experience with Christians is that many of them do take responsibility for themselves as well as praying. From a Christian point of view, it would be silly not to pray along with taking responsibility for oneself. That would be like having a valuable resource you leave unused on the shelf.
Well, surely that prayer was not for “petty materialistic things” although I understand it’s not a prayer which makes any sense except to people who believe Satan is real.
If you interpreted ‘Satan’ metaphorically to mean ‘anything which is holding back real progress in that country’ — how would you feel about that prayer?
I think maybe you misconstrued this prayer a little. Yes, Christians thank God for everything that happens, ever, because they see everything as coming ultimately from God. But when they are thanking God they aren’t implying that the medicine and the skills of the doctors had nothing to do with it. They are saying “thank you God for everything You provided which contributed to that person’s healing such as the medicine you enabled people to discover and make available and the skilled doctors”. Do Christians sometimes remember to thank God and forget to thank the skilled doctors or other people who physically provided the help? Probably.
People really do go home and pray the prayer requests at home. Praying for someone else, even if it seems like a waste of time to an atheist, is an act of unselfishness, wouldn’t you agree?
It’s not at all surprising an atheist would have this reaction to a prayer meeting. But can you see that from a Christian point of view, God’s power to change things is much greater than any human power and so they would be foolish not to ask God for help. If my car needs fixing I take it in because I have no clue how to fix it. The time it takes to take my car in is a better investment of my time than trying to fix it myself. Christians spend their time in ways that they consider a good investment of it and praying is one of those ways.
Thanks as always for your comments, Hemant. I hope the next church meeting you go to will be a less frustrating experience for you.
Comment by: Ir
10I agree.
Again, I agree. I’m all for interesting questions! :)
Hemant claimed there’s no evidence that God answers prayer in his comments here and is inviting people to discuss that on his blog so I won’t comment on that here.
Because what Christians pray about indicates what matters to them. If their prayers unduly center around their own concerns it makes them sound very selfish. Not that all the prayers did last night, evidently, but I think the ‘unselfish ones’ probably annoyed Hemant as much as the others since they had to do with people who weren’t Christians getting converted.
Wow, Jim, that’s not really a question of yours, is it? That question amounts to, hey, why not do what everyone else does - go with the majority? Since when did Jesus ever use an argument like that? Never, in my recollection. Wouldn’t he say, do what’s right even if you’re the only one doing it?
I would say the ‘everyone else is doing it’ argument is a great reason to investigate what almost everyone else is doing. It’s a terrible reason to do it before researching why one should do it.
Comment by: lisa
11“I would much rather see the people praying less and doing more.” Hemant
Thanks for the post. A couple of statements really gave me a better sense for how an atheist thinks about prayer issues and evangelism. And then, Hemant, you wrote the above, and cemented what I’ve come to believe over the past few years. What the Church does is what the world listens to, not what she says. What would it look like if we spent as much time serving our community and our world as we did praying, singing, going to Bible studies, Vacation Bible Schools, listening to preaching.
For me it’s not an either/or. It’s a yes/and! To follow all the ways of Jesus we must do what he said: Feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners, the sick, the lonely. (Matt. 25) And this doesn’t include just those who are Christians. Shame on us if we think that we can serve each other and let everyone else go by the wayside. If people who aren’t Christians find that reprehensible, they have every right to! This post was a thought-provoking reminder of why sacrificing our time and talents for others so important. Thanks.
Comment by: Ir
12I have a really hard time with that too, because of what it implies about God’s character, if it is true that God exists, heard both prayers and said yes to Francine and no to Australia. I’d rather God didn’t exist than he does and shows the kind of strange, arbitrary favoritism it implies if God truly made the decision “I will help Francine’s brother but I will not help Australia”.
Comment by: Topher
13I know this is off the topic, but I didn’t know where to post it…
Hemant/Jim — I’m interested in hearing some opinions on where morals come from. My only knowledge on this subject comes from C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity, and I’m dying to hear more.
Why do we believe that stealing or murder is wrong? I think a common answer would be that we were taught it from our parents and them from their grandparents and so on, but I would say that that is too simple. Others would say that not everyone has the same basic morals and that there are some people that say stealing is “okay.” I would disagree with that as well. For something to be “okay”, doesn’t it have to be “okay” on both sides? If I believe that stealing is a moral thing to do, then you should be able to steal from me, and I consider it a good or moral act and vice versa…right? Thus, we should be able to steal from each other freely and it would be okay…
So where do morals come from? - can we make this a new blog?
Comment by: Ir
14I second that request.
Please everyone, let’s not discuss it here so that we can keep this one on the topics directly addressed in Hemant’s comments about last night’s meeting.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
15I think Siamangs “magic spell” question warrants some response from those who believe in praying.
Ir
sorry you thought my “everyones doing it” observation lacked substance
Comment by: Ir
16No problem, Jim. I wasn’t sure if you realized it was simply an ‘everyone’s doing it’ argument.
Did you see my comment that what Hemant went to was specifically a Missionary Prayer Meeting? Hence all the missionary stuff.
Comment by: NCxian
17Hemant:
Finally, we are on a subject I know something about!
I had a similar experience to yours 10 years ago, coming cold into an evangelical prayer meeting, and had the same kind of reaction. Then, for other reasons, I joined this community (not Moody) and have grown to know and love the folks who do this sort of thing, so let me share my experience.
First, they absolutely do ask the questions about whether prayer is answered, what kinds of things God wants you to pray for, and so on. In my experience, even the most staunchly secure Christians are willing to express these questions. Even when doubts of other kinds are frowned upon. I think you even give us a hint of that in your report, when you say the pastor addressed the issue in the meeting. His statement seems a little canned, but you can be sure he said it because he knows that everyone else in the congregation is thinking some of your same questions. His reassurance wasn’t just for you :) . Also, when Lula Bell is relating for the third straight week the gory details of her bunyan surgery, I can assure you there are plenty of doubts about this activity!
Second, you would really need a translator to understand the rich sub-text that was beneath the stated “prayer concerns and praises”. In this kind of a meeting, anybody who hasn’t been a part of that community for a while is really a stranger in a strange land. So let me offer a few translations:
“Please pray for me, Judy, because I have pulled a hamstring, and you know that I care for my elderly mother and rotten teenager, and this is just the last straw and unless I get some help I am going to scream.” Then after the meeting, Mary Sue comes up and says, why don’t you send Bobby over to my house on Saturday and we’ll take him to the baseball game. And Jane come up and says, I was planning to make a big batch of chili this week, let me bring you a tupperware full.
“Please pray for the Easter egg hunt . . . because you know that we have invited the whole community to come and I am nervous because I have responsibility for this and if I could just get a few more folks I wouldn’t have to be so nervous” And if she is lucky, a couple folks come up and say, ok, you must really need some help, I’ll come.
“Thank God that Bob’s tumor has shrunk . . .[partly a status report on an previous prayer concern] and thank you all for taking the kids on some weekends, and bringing food, and all the things you have done for us during this treatment, I love you all” And folks come up afterward and give them a hug in happiness and as an acceptance of what they understand to be gratitude for their being there for this family.
As far as the folks writing down the prayer concerns, they are likely to be folks who have, or aspire to have, a daily “quiet time” in which they “take these prayers before God”. One outcome of this activity might be something like . . .”Hmm, poor old Lula Belle seems so obsessed with her bunyans, I have been praying about them every day for three weeks. Maybe she is getting depressed because she can’t get out. I’ll see if I can talk Mom into taking her lunch this week”
None of the above is to suggest that these folks think that their praying is futile, but simply that they often do have doubts, and might abandon this practice but for the fact that it is an integral part of being a “church family” for each other. Yes, it would be simpler if it was more straightforward, but how easy is it for anybody to ask for help?
And by the way, one of the main topics of discussion among Christians re:prayer is “When we pray, don’t we spend to much time talking and not enough time listening”. Maybe so, but the talking, in this prayer meeting context has its own special purpose, which might be stated in Christianese as allowing the church family to “be the hands and feet of Jesus”.
Comment by: Stephan
18Prayer is a great topic for this discussion. It is one area that I’m sure many Atheists just won’t “get it”, because they don’t believe God exists, or if there is a god, he probably doesn’t care enough to do anything about it.
Greg Boyd takes on the issue of prayer in a few of his books, “Is God to Blame” and “God at War”. Both suggest (and this is Open Theism here) that God voluntarily limited His own power to interfere when He created the universe. He can’t just arbitrarily stop the cause/effect relationship that He created. I’ve mentioned this here before, that if God were to always stop bad things from happening to good people we would live in a chaotic world where you could never predict the outcome of anything. If two people fell off a cliff, one might die and the other one live. A killer storm might totally destroy one house and leave the one next door untouched.
The question Boyd leaves unanswered, and probably the toughest one asked by Siamang, is why God answers some prayers and not others. I wish I had a good answer. There are some things about which I have been praying for years that show no signs of being answered. I admit to being somewhat cynical about “healing” prayers because I have seen so many situations where the most heartfelt prayers have not been answered.
I would have to say that prayer is a result of my belief, and not a cause for it. I pray because I believe. I believe I have seen answered prayer, but because it is such a subjective and subtle thing, you can always attribute it to some other cause if you don’t believe.
I welcome other comments on this topic. I don’t claim to have very good answers.
By they way, Ir, please stop being an apologist for Christians. You’re freakin’ me out.;-)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
19Jim writes [I think Siamangs "magic spell" question warrants some response from those who believe in praying.] I agree.
I also, in my own way, almost totally agree with Siamang. Yes I pray and ask for stuff, but I pray to get closer to God. That’s the beginning and end of the point of praying imo!
Making God into some kind of a magic prayer vending machine is ridiculous. Most of the Xians I have meaningful relationships with don’t see it that way, I’m pleased to say! But I still do ask for stuff, and I think He grants it sometimes! We are, as Xians, commanded in Scripture by Christ to ask.
Comment by: Ir
20In my case, what I struggle with is - suppose God exists, I “don’t get” how the whole prayer business makes sense.
If it freaks you out, think how I feel! :)
I’m just trying to be ‘fair’ ;).
Comment by: Jim
21http://dukemednews.duke.edu/news/article.php?id=9136
Here is an interesting article on the prayer side of things.
Comment by: ap
22VERY interesting to read this non-believer’s thoughts on the goings-on of our evangelical subculture. Insightful. Funny. Convicting! Yet dear visitor, you came to the prayer meeting, and left, and you remain today, as one who sees life without the “spectacles of faith.” As one who has not embraced the Evangel, i.e., the good news that “there is one mediator between God and people, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all …” (2 Tim 2:5-6). As one who has not known the joy of proclaiming, “Christ has risen, he has risen indeed!” And, as one who has not recognized that he (and everyone else in the world, including Muslims) desperately needs to be ransomed. And so how could we imagine that you would understand the Christians at the Moody Church or, for that matter, Christians anywhere? I do agree with you on one point: Because we believe in coming boldly to the throne of grace, we tend to bring everything to prayer, even the aching bones and the noisy neighbors. Are there bigger fish to fry, prayer-wise? Ought we to raise our sights from our own aches, pains, and personal problems to the greater needs around us? Absolutely. Yet even so, Christ cares about those aches and pains, and tells us to cast those burdens on him. Your excursion to the prayer meeting wasn’t your last, I hope. When I was in my 20s, I did something similar: visiting churches of all types, comparing notes, keeping some and tossing the rest. The experience is a fascinating cultural study. Perhaps at the heart of the exercise is a quest for a truth on which the seeker might hang one’s hat, and entrust one’s whole being. If you are looking for such a truth, I hope that you do so openly, and soon find it.
Comment by: Susan
23I am curious: what did the Christians say/do that was hateful about Islam? You reported that the Christians believe that Christianity is true, that Islam is false, and that they desire for Muslim people to come to the same conclusion. Do you interpret that as hateful? If so, I don’t see how you hope to escape that same label (”hateful”) yourself: You report that you believe that atheism is true and that Christianity is false. You don’t comment here on whether you desire Christians to recognize the same truth as you do. If you’re indifferent about the misguided Christians who are trapped by religious lies, I might conclude that perhaps you didn’t love them, but I still wouldn’t assume that you were hateful. If you expressed a desire that they see the truth for what it is (according to your understanding) I might conclude that you care about them. Am I missing something?
Similarly, your injunction to Christians to “forget what the bible may say about spreading the word of God [. . .] Stop interfering with their lives!” strikes me as blatantly hypocritical. You just told Christians to disregard their own beliefs and values and adopt yours instead–and in my book, you are welcome to do so, but it IS ironic (at best) that this is the exact same thing you are criticizing the Christians for. How do you explain this?
Comment by: Cully
24Stephan said:
But those things happen all the time! tornados DO destroy one house and the leave the neighboring one standing. People do survive horrible accidents when the rest of their family is killed. Life IS chaotic.
Here’s three things (as I understand it) that Christians believe to be true:
1) God can do anything.
2) God doesn’t want evil to exist.
3) Evil exists.
There’s a hole in that logic. 1 can’t be true if 2 & 3 are. 2 can’t be true if 1 & 3 are. 3 can’t be true if 1 & 2 are! Unless of course you have a capricious God who acts on whims.
Bringing this back to prayer I always wondered what happens when prayers contradict. Hemant reported that this church was praying for a good price on a piece of property. What if the owner of the property also prayed that he receive a large sum for the same property?
Comment by: Stephan
25Cully wrote:
Cully, if you read my post above, you know I don’t believe #1. I believe God intentionally limited His power when He created the world, similar to how you would limit your power when you hand your teenager the keys to the car. You have taught them how to drive, but you know the dangers of the road. You can’t control their actions or the actions of others. It’s not a perfect analogy, but I hope you get my point.
Comment by: Marty
26IR said:
Jim - I am wondering if it would be helpful for you to set up a topic something like “Random Thought” or something like that. I appreciate that everyone needs a place to convey their thinking, while at the same time it is frustrating to have a thread go off topic. You have made a great attempt to have a category for first timers - but that has not worked. If there was a “Random Thoughts” category - maybe the “First Timers” category will be left to first timers.
Comment by: Marty
27IR - your entry #9 adds to my concern about you. Your objective, pleasant, well thought out, balanced, respectful, open, insightful, communications make you even more suspect than before :-) Are you sure you are not God masquerading as IR?
Comment by: Cully
28Stephan said:
I think I see your point. Don’t understand it… but I see it. When did this limiting take place? Can he reclaim this power whenever he likes? By the way… this is another in a line of thoughts that you have presented that falls in line with deism. Are you SURE you aren’t deist? ;)
Comment by: NCxian
29Jim:
Do you prep Hemant in any way before he goes to a meeting/service? I can see the pros and cons. I am just thinking if he knew in advance that a Wednesday night prayer meeting was likely to be something for folks already within the community, he would have understood it differently (see my comment #17 for what I think was probably a “sub-text” he would not have been able to pick up). On the other hand, we wouldn’t haven’t gotten the great description we got if he had been prepped, so maybe it was for the best.
Just wondering about the process!
Comment by: Mark Elfstrand
30I love a heartfelt seeker…atheist. You’re on a journey.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
31Cully writes
[1) God can do anything.
2) God doesn't want evil to exist.
3) Evil exists.
There's a hole in that logic. 1 can't be true if 2 & 3 are. 2 can't be true if 1 & 3 are. 3 can't be true if 1 & 2 are! Unless of course you have a capricious God who acts on whims.]
I would argue it’s incomplete logic. You forgot 4. God has created man with free will so that he can choose to obey Him or not. That would explain why he allows evil to exist.
Comment by: Ron
32What is prayer? Why do we pray? Is prayer two-way communication with God or is prayer a laying out of our requests for God to check off one by one? Do we pray because we truly want a solution to all of our difficulties or just to know that God is there with us in every possible way in an intimate fashion?
Several people have mentioned examples of how God is to blame for perhaps answering prayers of triviality and ignoring prayers of genuine heartfelt struggle like what happens in a hurricane or tornado or any natural disaster or dare I say ignoring a prayer of “If it is possible let this cup pass from me.” The other side of that is, “yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt” because Jesus understood that the humanity in Him is the same humanity that is in us. That humanity is incapable of achieving the mind of God. I thank God every day for not answering that prayer to His beloved perfect son.
I believe that we must think it is easy to wear the shoes of God because Christians and non-Christians alike are so slow to give God the benefit of the doubt and what a tragedy that is.
If people really want to understand prayer then I challenge them align themselves with God to the best of their ability. The longest prayer in the Bible is the gospel of John chapter 17 and I believe the theme of it to be, alignment with God. By that I mean seek nothing apart from Him.
We don’t do justice speaking of prayer and neglecting the prayer Jesus taught his disciples. What themes can we find in that prayer? God is above us? God is Holy? God knows our individual personal needs? God wishes us to truly live and understand forgiveness?
Why are we so unforgiving of a God we don’t fully understand? Without history to tell them why, how do you think that the disciples felt for three days after the death of Christ? They didn’t have all of the details at the time and neither do we and so I don’t think it is fair for Christians or non-Christians to judge God based on our perception of His ability to answer prayer.
I still like Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My wys higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”
And Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of the Law.” We won’t know things until they are revealed to us.
And Jim, Thank you for your specific grace shown towards me.
Comment by: TXatheist
33Cully,
I say this with respect to both sides as I was a xian once. You are going to bang your head against the wall trying to use logic to understand god.
Comment by: Julie
34I am a Christian and believe strongly in the power of prayer. Prayer does not have power because it makes the person you are praying for feel better or more relaxed or loved, although these may be an additional benefits. Prayers have power because they involve communicating our concerns and requests to the God of the universe, who is all-knowing, all-power, and loving. If God does not exist, then of course, prayer has no power. If the all-powerful God does exist, then, of course, prayers directed to Him are powerful, because He listens and responds to them. It is natural that a prayer-meeting would seem very strange and worthless to someone who does not believe in God. God either exists or He does not exist. The evidence I have seen in other Christian’s lives and my own of God’s transforming power through Jesus Christ is strong enough for me to stake my life on. The proof I have that God exists is the wonderful change he makes in the lives of believers in Jesus Christ. The love I see for other people and for God in my fellow-Christian friends is enough proof for me to spend my life serving God and others. I respect the fact that the author did go to a prayer meeting at the Moody Church and I hope the author will continue to investigate Christianity. Many atheists, including C.S. Lewis, have come to faith in Jesus Christ through such investigation. The Bible tells us that the message of Jesus Christ does seem like absolute foolishness to those do not believe in Christ, so it is normal that a prayer meeting would seem strange and foolish to an atheist. However, to a Christian, whose heart has been transformed by the saving grace of Jesus Christ, all of this “foolishness” does make perfect sense and prayer, faith in Jesus Christ, and living a life in obedience and service to God become the most logical, meaningful, and eternally-rewarding pursuits. I am willing to bet my life on this!
Comment by: Cully
35Yeah, I understand Tx, and you’re right. It was a reaction to Stephan’s statements about god and his lack of participation in cause and effect. I’ll let it drop unless someone comes up with something compelling.
Comment by: Siamang
36Thanks for the responses, NCxian and others. Very illuminating.
Comment by: TXatheist
37Jim,
I perceive most here on the xian side as moderates or progressive xians. Could we discuss the words out this guys mouth?
http://media.pfaw.org/video/pfaw/pfawvideo.asp
Stephan,
See Julie’s comment that many atheists like CS Lewis came to xianity. That is simply not true. CS Lewis is the exception to the rule and I have a belief of why he did what he did.
Comment by: Julie
38TXatheist,
How do you know that many athesits have NOT come to fatih in Jesus Christ throuhg their exploration of Christianity? The former atheists I am referring to, besides C.S. Lewis, are friends of mine, so I know for a fact that they became Christians as an end result of their investigation of Christianity.
Comment by: TXatheist
39Sorry Jim,
Maybe use this link and click on broadband or dial up for video.
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=19453
Julie,
Invite them here or let me ask how sincere they were about being an atheist. I personally know of know one who was atheist and converted. I do know many apathetic people who bought into xianity as I did because I knew nothing about it. Your few friends hardly counts as many. You meant to say a couple of people?
Comment by: Stephan
40TX, regarding CS Lewis and Atheists becoming or not becoming Christians I would ask you to back that up with statistics. Lacking that I will assume it is your opinion. As to why he did what he did, I think it would ill advised to question the motives of someone you have never met who is not around to defend himself.
Comment by: Stephan
41Please disregard Doug. He is a fringe element. Don’t feed the trolls.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
42Hemant, FWIW, prayer meetings make me crazy, too. I absolutely believe in prayer, but I absolutely believe that most Christians haven’t figured out enough about how God works in people’s lives to pray (what I would consider to be) sensible prayers. Fortunately, the Bible also tells us that one of the roles of God’s Spirit is to “translate” our misguided pleas. (another post) But the result is, as one wag put it, that most prayer meetings turn into “organ recitals”. (Pray for Aunt Mary’s gall bladder, pray for uncle harry’s kidney stone. ;-) )
Cully, #24. Great stuff. That’s the funniest caricature I’ve heard all day….but it’s still early.
So far, nobody’s even asked the two questions that I think are the most obvious and most interesting…
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
43Stephan,
Fair enough. First, before I do the leg work will you agree that after I post I was right, that Julie did not provide the statistics, though she made the claim and I certainly am entitled to have an opinion on why Lewis converted?
Comment by: Julie
44Regardless of how many former-atheist-turned Christian friends I have, my point was that you have know basis for claiming that there have not been many atheists who have come to faith in Jesus Christ in through their investigation of Christianity. My basis for claiming that there have been many atheists that have become Christians in this way are the writings of former atheists who are now Christians as well as my friends, who may be of no consequence to you, but whose lives are very improtant to me. C.S. Lewis was a very sincere (not an apathetic) athiest who became a very sincere and definitly not an apathetic Christian. It often works that way. I respect you for your strong beliefs, but I do wish you would continue to seriously investigate Christianity. God loves strong belief. God states in the Bible in Revelation 3:15-16 (please look it up) to the Church in Laodicea: “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold-I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” So, God does not like apathy. Strong belief in the truth pleases God.
I respect you for honestly strongly believing what you believe, but I wish you would continue to investigate to make sure what you are believing so strongly in is the truth.
Comment by: Julie
45To TXatheist:
Excuse me for the typo in line 2 (writing “know” instead of “no”). I guess I have the word “know” on my mind.
Comment by: TXatheist
46Julie,
I was a well-versed xian. Once again you used the word many. I know of zero converts from atheism to xianity yet you know many? I can assure you I will continue to investigate xianity but it’s not because your god loves strong beliefs but I like to learn. God didn’t state anything in Revelations, some man wrote it. I hope you will do the same as you ask of me, investigate the negative aspects of xianity.
Comment by: Stephanie
47I think that is shows how real God is when someone who admits they don’t believe in God seeks Him out regardless by going to a prayer meeting. All are welcome! Further, I think it should be applauded that Hemant would be willing to put pride aside to seek out new information and acknowledge the interest.
It says in scripture that no one comes to the Father unless the Father first draws them; I think Hemant is being drawn to God. I would ask that he pray in all sincerity “God, if you are real, please reveal yourself to me and I will follow you”. Give it a shot. If your belief system is true - you will be no worse off. If God is real –you have paradise forever.
I truly enjoy talking to those who are skeptical and have sincere questions. I don’t need to defend the God of the Universe but only seek to help others clarify possible misinformation on how you can know for sure if God is all He says He is and how you can know for certain if you have the gift of eternal life.
Comment by: Julie
48It makes sense that being a Christian I would be in contact with more Christians than you are. That is why I know of many atheist-turned Christians and you know of zero.
Comment by: TXatheist
49Actually, it doesn’t make sense because of the atheists I know none have left and more have come out. You know 1 or 2 at most it appears and you won’t admit it?
Stephan,
I’ll take it you are off line, that must be it.
Please note the second blue box where nonreligious/secular plus atheists plus humanists all rose significantly in the US. xianity rose about the same as population growth.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html
Comment by: Julie
50TXatheist:
If won’t believe that I do know of many atheist-turned Christians, I can’t change your mind, but I don’t want to bicker. I just hope that you will investigate Christianity more and read the Bible (the Gospel of John is a great place to start). I appreciate your honest discussion.
Comment by: Ir
51Tom, what are they? I’d really like to know. I don’t have to guess, do I? :)
By the way I apologized to you (tried to, anyway) in #63 of “Now Hemant is a Sermon Topic”. I’m hoping that the virtual Starbucks offer hasn’t been irrevocably withdrawn…
Comment by: Stephan
52TX, You could interpret that chart in several ways. The fact that some groups don’t appear in 1990 but show up in 2001 in significant numbers tells me methodology of the survey must have changed. This makes all of the results suspect. I would also not equate “nonreligious/secular” with atheist/agnostic/humanist. It also cannot show any reason for the change in numbers. It may have more to do with immigration or a change in how they define the terms. I just don’t think it proves anything.
Regarding CS Lewis, anyone can have an uneducated opinion of anything. That doesn’t make it worthwhile.
Comment by: Siamang
53Tom, I’m intrigued. What are the two questions?
Comment by: Julie
54TXatheist:
One last message:
I highly recommoned that you read Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. This book examines many of the doubts and arguments against Christianity. It is very well-written by an intelligent and well-educated man. Whether or not the arguments are convincing to you, reading this book is well worth your time. The arguments are logical and it is a very interesting read, regardless of whether you agree or not.
Comment by: Steve
55The “unspoken request” reminds me of the prayer meetings at the Christian undergrad college I went to. A lot of people I’m sure genuinely had things, but it really felt like a few people were using it as an attention-getting device. Every week we would hear, “Melissa (or whatever name) has a special unspoken this week.”
If it’s “unspoken”, why not leave it that way? What’s the point of drawing attention to yourself and not saying anything?
Comment by: TXatheist
56Julie,
I’ve read the bible twice, it’s mythology just like the other 100’s of stories people made up. I wasn’t bickering. Just when xians like to perceive they are gaining ground in the USA it’s not true. Christianity is being figured out and more people are becoming less religious according to statistics.
Stephan,
My opinion remains the same, education works and hence more people turn away from xianity. Unless of course you want to get rich and sell books, then you say your a xian because there are plenty of people willing to buy your books to fulfill their insecurity. You are certainly entitled to your uneducated opinion if that’s what you were referring to.
Comment by: TXatheist
57Julie,
I’ve read Lewis, Behe, Dembski, Johnson, McDowell and Strobel. I’m an atheist even more because of them.
Comment by: Stephan
58TX, Do you have any evidence that Lewis was just trying to sell books, or is that just your cynicism?
Comment by: Ir
59I think the point is that you’d like people to pray for you but you’d rather keep the reason confidential.
Maybe you’re right that some people use it to get attention.
Here’s a question:
Why is church so ‘unsafe’ that people are uncomfortable sharing the specific details of why they want others to pray for them?
Comment by: TXatheist
60Ever heard of Kevin Trudeau and how easy it is to sell books to gullible believers? Keep up the sarcasm and I will too.
Comment by: Tracy
61I am actually an atheist who converted to Christianity. So I would be happy to field any questions about that or talk to any atheist about what happened to me! As an atheist I did not pray for many years and I defintely get the viewpoint above. I could have seen myself writing this article 4 years ago because I loved to argue with Christians who I’m sure were wrong. Since I have come from an atheist background I really appreciate the Christians out there who make it a priority to debate and engage with atheists.
For all you atheist out there, I invite you to listen to this short podcast by Ravi Zacharias entitled “Why I am not an atheist”. I think you will appreciate this Christian’s viewpoint and maybe it will answer some of the questions you have. http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=LMPT&v=detail&id=617 In fact I would even challenge Hemant to write a blog in response to this podcast.
Comment by: Ir
62Tracy, someone already recommended Ravi Zacharias in comment #85 of First Timers Only - you might like to read the comments #86 and up there which are responses to that suggestion. Some atheists don’t think very highly of what Ravi Zacharias says (or how he says it).
Comment by: TXatheist
63Tracy,
Welcome to the blog. How did you become an atheist?
Comment by: Stephan
64TX, I’m sorry for the sarcasm. It’s one of my many faults. It was uncalled for. You and I both believe very strongly and disagree just as strongly. I will try to keep it civil.
Comment by: Ir
65Tracy, yes, please tell us more about how you became an atheist (I realize that now you are a Christian).
Comment by: Siamang
66TxAtheist wrote:
And Stephan wrote:
Yeah, because of all the atheists coming from Latin America, lol!
Sorry for the wise-crack.
I think the number change has a lot more to do with the change in the age of the population. We’ve got a big balloon of Baby Boomers who are starting to leave this earth. They’re more conservative and more religious than the public at large. As they leave us, the country will swing more liberal and less religious, barring individuals changing their own views.
A change in population numbers does not necessarily mean that individuals are leaving the church. Which I think was Stephan’s point.
Comment by: Julie
67TXathesit,
Have you read Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis? Even if you have, I would recommend giving it a second look.
Comment by: Stephan
68Siamang, you got my point. As Mark Twain said, there are “lies, damn lies, and statistics.”
Comment by: TXatheist
69Julie,
Did you see my list above? Have you read or are you willing to read a book by an atheist? Heck, even the first 70 pages of the Age or Reason would be a great read if you want something mild and deistic not atheistic.
Comment by: Ir
70Julie, would you be open to reading an atheist’s review of Mere Christianity? Here is one, if you are:
Mere Assertions by Dan Barker
Comment by: TXatheist
71Siamang,
Ever seen a annual meeting of the people from FFRF? I’m definitely one of the younger people involved at UU and that’s from liberal xians to atheist.
Comment by: TXatheist
72Stephan,
Thanks for the apology and I extend it also, sorry. Dan Barker was a preacher/minister for decades and became an atheist. He realizes how easy it was to sell xian books and how challenging it is to be an atheist. They randomly publicize the email that is hate mail and it’s unbelievable. Just for being an atheist.
Comment by: NCxian
73I am trying block quotes for the first time, please forgive me and give me advice if I do something wrong that only I can fix.
I have been reading a book called “The Search to Belong” by Joe Myers. In it he proposes that people have relationships, or seek to belong, in four different spaces: public, social, personal and intimate. His argument is that a healthy person has most relationships in public space, fewer in social, a handful in personal and just one or two in intimate. He argues against a common philosophy in churches that members should be pushed into more and more personal or intimate relationships.
My guess is that when a person asks for prayer but prefers not to describe a need, it is because the folks in the room are in a relationship with the person that is not as intimate as the problem is. For instance, a prayer meeting likely contains folks who are really only in a social relationship with you, whereas your need might be something that you would share only with personal friends or intimates.
Then, I think the question becomes, why would you mention your need at all, if these folks are not the ones you would share the details with. I don’t know exactly, I don’t think I would say anything myself. But there are folks who believe that having a lot of folks praying for something is more effective than one person praying for something. (Witness the phenomenon of having “Days of Prayer” for certain issues). Maybe they think that.
Comment by: Stephan
74I saw a list of TV shows where Dan Barker has appeared:
I think anyone who appears on these shows deserves hate mail, not matter what they espouse. Isn’t that why people do these shows? To provoke a strong reaction? Poke your opponents with a sharp stick until one of them yells, then use that to paint them all with one big brush.
Comment by: Tracy
75Glad to see a few people were interested in my conversion : ) It actually ties in quite nicely with this whole thread.
Not that I need to qualify my prior atheism, but as an atheist I had read many philosophical works by Nietchze, Hume, most of the existentialist (Camus, Sartre, Kafka, ect), Ayn Rand (card carrying objectivist for a while) and really believed in the various atheistic ideas they held at some point in time. I was also very interested naturalism and the who Darwinian mindset. As an atheist you must admit there is no one common philosophy or mindset, one truth to hang onto. So you get by on what you believe (there is no God) and then find something to justify that, as many atheist has overtime. For me, I just got tired of trying to figure it out, find the truth in atheism, and I was in a place of disillusionment. So I did what any atheist who didn’t know what else to do would do, I prayed. I prayed to God that He would reveal Himself to me and show me that He existed. And I assure you that God does hear the prayer of the unbeliever, the atheist, whoever you may be. This is one prayer that He will answer if you pray it.
Comment by: TXatheist
76Stephan,
What did you eat for lunch? Poke their oppenents with a sharp stick? Is that how you see this?
Comment by: Ir
77For what it’s worth, I don’t think all atheists would pray in that situation.
Were you ‘raised’ atheist - are your parents atheist? If not, how did you get into it in the first place? (If you don’t mind me asking)
Comment by: TXatheist
78Tracy,
Thanks but your assurance that he answers is not unnecessary for me. You believe in god, that’s fine.
Comment by: Stephan
79TX, The “sharp stick” analogy was specifically about Barker going on daytime talk shows. Those aren’t typically the places someone would go if they want intelligent dialogue. It’s where you go if you want to appeal to the lowest common denominator and stir up trouble, which, apparently, is what he got. IMO, he deserves it.
Comment by: Daz
80When it comes to the conversion/deconversion stories some people on both sides make the same kind of self serving argument. The christians say that X wasn’t a “real” christian and the atheists say Y wasn’t a “well enough read… etc” atheist. One atheist on the net even deplores the lack of “famous” atheists converting. Talk about an appeal to authority! For me, unless I feel a person is deliberately trying to deceive me, I take them on their word as to what they call themselves.
Comment by: Siamang
81TXatheist
So you’re saying that because it’s a bunch of oldsters at the FFRF or the UU that it’s indicative of the population out there of atheists?
That’s a biased sample. The atheists at UU may be older just because older people want fellowship more, so older atheists go to UU, and the younger ones chat online or go to raves or whatever the whippersnappers do these days.
According to the ARIS survey linked to in the religioustolerance.org article, in 2001 American adults under 34 were more than twice as likely as seniors to describe themselves as either “secular” or “somewhat secular.”
But in counter to Stephen’s point, the same survey asked people if they had changed their religious affiliation in their lives. About 16% of the population say they have changed their affiliation. The data shows many more people have switched to “no religion” than to any particular sect of Christianity.
Only 5% of people who have switched religions have said that their previous affiliation was “no religion,” whereas 23% of “no religion” respondents came from a previous religious affiliation. In America, we can pretty safely assume that the majority of those people were Christians of some sort.
So currently, I think atheism is the main competitor to Christianity. It seems that more Christians are becoming atheists than atheists are becoming christians. The membership churn among christians seems to come from other religions or other brands of christianity.
The survey and data are in this pdf file:
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_studies/aris.pdf
Comment by: TXatheist
82Thanks, I could easily be wrong Siamang:)
Comment by: Julie
83TXatheist:
Yes, I did see your list, but I specifically wanted to see if you had read Mere Christianity. You just said you have read Lewis. I would highly recommend reading (or re-reading) Mere Christianity. Let me know your reaction.
Comment by: TXatheist
84Stephan,
He got what he deserved? F U
Comment by: TXatheist
85Julie,
And you will read Thomas Paine? I really get agitated when some xian thinks I’m the one who needs to do some reading and yet doesn’t think they do.
Comment by: Julie
86TX atheist:
I have no problem reading books that oppose Christianity. I will check out the Age of Reason sometime.
Comment by: Siamang
87TXatheist, Stephan… do I have to turn this car around?
Comment by: TXatheist
88:)
Comment by: TXatheist
89Julie,
Let me know and I’ll reread Lewis again when you’re done and provided feedback:)
Comment by: Stephan
90I do seem to be somewhat of a curmudgeon today. Maybe I need a nap.
You kids get off my lawn!
Comment by: Albert
91Looks like this blog is deteriorating into the usual low brow metaphysics debate on the internet
Comment by: Stephan
92Albert, we’re having a bad day. I’m sure we’ll all be polite from now on.
Comment by: Albert
93What do you think Jim? Should we make them stand in the corner for awhile? :-)
Comment by: Ir
94Stephan, I’m not sure. But the Christians here could pray that they (and others) would not post anything in haste.
Seriously.
What do you think?
Comment by: Stephan
95Ir, you almost sound as if you believe in prayer.
I need to try to refrain from engaging in debate. I think we have all learned that that is not going to get us anywhere, and I’m sorry that I have lowered myself to it today. From now I on will count to ten and say a prayer before hitting the “Submit Comment” button.
I have a copy of the Prayer of St. Francis taped to my monitor. If I just read the first line of that I will probably post much less often and much more thoughtfully.
Comment by: Ir
96I believe in the effects of prayer on the people who are praying, definitely.
Comment by: TXatheist
97I’m not having a bad day. I just made some relevant points and got sarcasm for a reply.
Comment by: Daz
98Jim,
I tried twice posting on the section about mistrust of atheists and it didn’t seem to “take”.
In the interim have a look 1/3 down at the page http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/003/21.36.html the section “Institutional Atheism” where it describes how atheism has not done a good job of selling itself. Sorry for posting here but I’m going off shortly.
Comment by: TXatheist
99I’m really getting tired of the “we” when it’s not me. Did anyone pay attention to the remarks Jim made toward me? Take notes on his incredible ability to recognize who was at fault.
Comment by: TXatheist
100Daz,
Atheism doesn’t have an afterlife or heavenly reward or utopia to offer. Atheism must be embraced for it’s blunt honesty if one wants to.
Comment by: Doug
101BTW, does Hemant know that the Islamic government in Afghanistan is currently trying to execute a Muslim-turned-Christian (Abdul Rahman) simply for the “crime” of converting to Christianity? If Hemant wants to rail against Christian folks for simply trying to convert people through peaceful discussion and prayer, how much MORE should Hemant rail against Muslims for using violence?
All hail the all-knowing god known as Hemant and his gift of unassailable wisdom to mankind!
Comment by: Daz
102Incorrect. Some atheists believe in the persistence of consciousness after death just not the usual theistic explanations of such. It’s a fallacy to assume that God (especially traditional theistic concepts of) and an afterlife are necessarily co-dependant entities.
Comment by: Daz
103Correction,
Post #102 would better read “God in any shape and form and the afterlife………
Comment by: CZ
104Contrary to perhaps popular belief, people are not born “Christians”, people do not come to saving faith in Jesus Christ once they are born on this earth. Rather, most people are born atheist or agnostics and gradually come to a belief in either themselves, other gods, or Jesus Christ as they become older. Yes, people may be born INTO a Christian family, but we are not born with a certain theological belief. Therefore, to that extent, all Christians were once atheists.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
105Ir, of course I accept your apology and forgive. What kind of Christian would I be…? ;-)
And the two questions. I should preface that the first of these grows out of the “makin’ me crazy” experience of a lot of Christians’ public prayer combined with a study of the kinds of things Paul prayed about and asked prayer for. Those things almost never show up at prayer meeting.
Anyhow: 1) Suppose Rick L is a Houston Rockets fan and I am a Sacramento Kings fan, and our teams are playing each other, and we both pray that our team wins. What is God gonna do? How are we going to interpret the outcome?
2) There are something just shy of 2 billion Christians in the world. That’s gotta mean that at least a million are praying at any one time. (Setting aside for the moment the prayers of any other religions.) The racket in Heaven must be incredible. How can God listen to, much less answer all that stuff going on at once?
Tom in Sacramento
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Daz
106That’s a popular sound byte that gets around, but if you take it to its logical conclusion it would imply that the only “true” knowledge one could have of anything would have to imparted at the moment of birth (?conception) and that anything that came after would necessarily be suspect.
Comment by: Siamang
107Great article, Daz. The author seems to be right on when he talks about atheism as a reaction to religion. I like his points about how atheism can be an outsider voice that responds to religion and helps rebut some of the more stale or more morally troubling facets of dogma. But I nevertheless think statistics say quite the opposite about the twilight of atheism. It’s growing quite rapidly in America at least.
Comment by: Julie
108TXatheist:
So you’ll only read Mere Christianity after I’m done with my book–that’s a little weird. It sounds like you’re a little hesistant/afraid? Come on, go for it! Read it again. We could read simultaneously! :)
Comment by: TXatheist
109Daz,
absolutely, god and xianity are not the same, thanks for the correction. Afterlife and god are not one in the same, agreed:)
Comment by: TXatheist
110Julie,
Yes, I’m dearly afraid I might convert. Please help me:) I actually read it remember? It’s not weird if you constantly get asked to read one more book that will allow me to see the light of xianity but yet when you ask xians to read something they don’t see the need. That might come as a shock but my initial observation of this blog was most xians are unaware of what atheism is, imo.
Comment by: Ir
111Thanks, Tom :)
I take your point. The prayers of Paul were not for parking places ;)
Indeed!
I guess you didn’t see Bruce Almighty. He downloads them into his computer and he can type the answers really fast!
Thanks for ending the suspense on those two questions and for letting me know the virtual Starbucks is on again :)
Comment by: Ir
112Way to go, TX! :)
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
113RE:Siamang’s “magic spell” praying. That is a facet of what I was refering to about prayer meetings making me crazy. I think the answer to, Why does it “work” sometimes and not “work” other times is a function of several things. The things prayed for, the attitude in prayer, and so on.
Things prayed for: Check the prayer of Jesus in John 17 or the many references that Paul makes to prayer. What you find is prayer for growth in Godliness, unity, patience, etc. You find prayer that people will be strong through their trials and learn from them. What you hear in prayer meeting is pleas that God will deliver us from trials so that we won’t have to learn from them.
And you find people praying for things that are guaranteed to resolve “naturally”. If I get an earache or the flu, chances are real good that I’m going to get better (physically). So prayer for that seems like a waste of bandwidth. But prayer that I will be gentle and patient with my wife and kids while I’m feeling lousy, that’s a good thing because it is definitely not in my character to do so.
And that is the attitude I refered to. The Bible talks about trials as being one of God’s tools to work in our lives. If that is the case, we should want God to do whatever He sees that needs doing. But most Christians pray that He will take it away. Now!
The “magic spell” this is just one of the things that bugs me. Another is the “God as Cosmic Bellhop” mindset.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: TXatheist
114Thanks Ir:) I am trying to use it but when facts come up I really have a hard time trying to insert it:)
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
115Finally, Jim, I have to note that, given the way that this conversation has gone at times, the title of this thread — The Moody Church — seems singularly appropriate. ;-)
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
116… some of it is positively PMSing! ;-)
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
117I did see Bruce Almighty. And Oh, God. Loved ‘em both. They both teach some very good theology amidst the humor, imo.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
118Yeah, but who’d win in a boxing match? George Burns of Morgan Freeman… I mean… in their prime… Can we start a new thread?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
119I meant George Burns OR Morgan Freeman.
Everybody laugh! NOW!
:-D
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
120When I pray publicly I usually ask that God be with whoever it is that is suffering. This a request to comfort them in some way.
As far as answering prayer, I believe God works through people in the world today and not through miraculous intervention. People have free will and can thus ignore God if they want, so sometimes the answer to prayer is “no”.
Prayer is also an expression of caring and a way to share our woes with each other. In this way it benefits the person doing the praying and also the person being prayed for. One does not have to believe in a higher power to receive the benefit of this.
Cully, I just blogged about the question you brought up in post #24. Click on my name below if you are interested in reading it.
Comment by: TXatheist
121Bruce,
Do you possibly see the atheist viewpoint on the prayer thing? You say god may say no when the prayer isn’t answered. Some of atheists say that’s because there is no god, just coincidence when some prayers are actually answered.
Comment by: TXatheist
122Bruce,
You referred Cully but I asked this to you on your blog concerning this topic.
Bruce,
Do you necessarily have to presume that if god doesn’t exist we wouldn’t understand right from wrong? The bible would still exist as I see it. Many books and traditions of morality would exist if god didn’t. I just don’t get it when people say without god there would be no morals
Comment by: Marty
123I believe we would have a sense of morality - maybe even a better sense of morality, if God and/or the Bible did not exist. I think that there is something within each of us that tells us not to harm someone else. I think that there is also deep within us something that encourages us to help each other. Trial and error seems to tell us that we feel better and like ourselves more when we do.
Comment by: inquisitive27
124“I don’t think I’ve ever felt more relieved to be an Atheist.”
(from the opening portion of Hemant’s initial post)
Hemant, I find this comment very interesting. I skimmed through the responses to your post and could have approached my post from a variety of angles…adding my two cents about prayer or telling you the latest book you should read to figure things out; but what I’d really like to know is what do you mean by “Atheist”? I don’t mean to sound disingenuous here. It’s just that I find that if you really want to know what someone believes, ask THEM, don’t assume you know just because they associate themselves with a particular label..Atheist, Christian, Buddhist, etc. I’d like to avoid dealing with a straw-man, or assuming you hold a view that you, in fact, do not. So, assumptions aside, would you mind explaining what you mean when you say you are an Atheist?
Also, I read the email interview you had with DNA (We must create a heaven now) (btw, I completely agree with your response to the second question regarding sermon relevancy) Your response to question three though… (i.e. What kind of sermon would appeal to you? Could you give an example?) also has me curious….You are quoted as writing, “We must do good for others because there is no better way to live.” We must do what makes us happy as long as we are not stopping anyone else from doing the same.” What is “good” and why is that “better”? How do you define those terms? Also, your last comment seems pretty relativistic. On this view, I should do whatever makes me happy and I shouldn’t stop any one else from doing the same. I would conclude, then, that if I like to torture babies for fun and doing that makes me happy, then I should be given the liberty to do so. Of course, based on other comments you’ve made, I doubt you would easily permit that (at least I hope you wouldn’t.) I guess I’m wondering how you came to those conclusions above (i.e. “We must do good for others because there is no better way to live” and “We must do what makes us happy as long as we are not stopping anyone else from doing the same.” What’s your thinking behind those statements?
I didn’t intend for my posting to be THIS long, but what you’ve written has raised some questions in my mind and again, I’d like to know what you think. (If you are willing to share). Thanks!
Comment by: TXatheist
125inquisitive,
Are you open to Hemant’s opinion only?
Comment by: Eliza
126Having been offline for most of the past 3 days, I’m behind the times - hope it’s not too rude to pull down a comment from Julie #34 (italics added):
You added the qualifier “the all-powerful” - does it seem possible to you that God exists but is not “all powerful”, or that there is more than one God? (I’m guessing the answer is a big NO but thought it worth asking for clarification on this point.)
Also, isn’t it possible that even if an all-powerful God exists that He (or, really, It - unless God has genitals or sex chromosomes) is not listening or responding? Why must it follow “of course” that an entity much greater and more powerful than humans, an entity which could create the universe, would be listening and responding to prayers? (Aside from the promises in the Bible, I mean - any other reason? One I can understand if not believe?)
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
127Eliza, first, did you go? How was it?
Second, you are, I think, quite correct. There is no necessary reason why a Creator would listen to His creatures or pay attention to them in any other way. And further, there is also no way that a creature could possibly concieve a Creator unless that Creator desired them to. The Creator necessarily inhabits a realm utterly outside the creation. So you are correct in what, I think, you are surmising.
However, this does present something of a conundrum. The existence of a Creator is a (near) universal cultural phenomenon. Of course, different cultures have given expression to this in different ways. But the very fact that the concept of God or gods is universal in human culture, and yet the logical impossibility of our knowing that without His self-revelation… Well, it needs some kind of explanation. And Occam’s Razor points to a pretty clear explanation.
Tom in Sacramento
Comment by: Eliza
128Tom -
First, I did go, & wrote about it (#71 under Atheist Seeks Advice, now have to go to A Cacophony of Blogs on the right hand side to get to it).
Second, the very fact that the concept of a creator is a near universal cultural phenomenon among humans leads just as logically to the conclusion that the humans share creativity and the unique ability of speculating about the past and future and have thus repeatedly come up with some explanatory model to pass down through the generations. Occam’s razor in original form was “Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily” - yet look at the rich variety in creation stories and gods from cultures past and present around the world and you have exactly “unnecessary multiplication”. I for one would be far more likely to believe in god/gods if the creation stories and god/s of disparate cultures were more similar than they are.
No offense, but how can “we” be so sure that the stories of other cultures are primitive, baseless myths yet believe that the stories of the Christian culture are absolutely true?
Comment by: Hemant
129inquisitive27–
What do I mean by I’m an Atheist? I mean I don’t believe in God. Or the supernatural.
Of course that’s a horrible idea. And my definition still stands. Even if torturing babies made you happy, you’d be stopping the babies from doing what makes them happy. This would include not doing things such as rape, torture, murder, etc. I thought that was obvious…
What else are you looking for in terms of an answer?
– Hemant
Comment by: Julie
130TXatheist:
My impression is that you are as resistant to examining ideas that oppose your own as you think Christians are. I agreed to read a book you suggested, yet you refused to re-read a book I suggested. I know you read it some time in the past, but I asked if you would read it again. I hope you will read Mere Christianity sometime with an open mind. Otherwise, you appear close-minded to ideas other than your own–exactly what you criticize Christians for. I am suggesting Mere Christianity not as a way to argue with you, but because it’s an excellent book that’s worth a second look.
Comment by: Julie
131Eliza,
Of course any type of God would be possible in theory, but I do believe that the reality is that there is one God who is all-powerful. This is my belief.
Secondly, it would be possible for there to be a God who is all-powerful, yet does not listen to his created beings. What makes God so wonderful is that he did create the universe, yet he is also willing to listen to me and respond to my concerns and requests. This really is mind-blowing. I believe this is true with all of my heart and mind. The proof I have is that I have seen the work God has done in my friends lives and the lives of many Christians I’ve come in contact with. The presence of God through Jesus Christ in their lives is incredibly evident and powerful. God has caused them to love me and other people with a love that I know is from God. Honnestly, the love I see in other Christians is the strongest proof I know. I cannot prove this scientifically, but I am willing to bet my life on Jesus Christ being the only way to God, because of the love and transformation of lives that I’ve seen in my friends. This may see illogical, and that’s fine with me. The proof in changed lives is powerful enough for me. Often the most important aspects of life (who we marry, who we love, shat occupation or hobby we have a passion for) are not proved logically or scientifically.
I do suggest you pray to God and ask him to reveal himself to you. Read the the Bible (the Gospel of John is a good place to start) and ask God to reveal himself through his word. Go to a church, such as the Moody Church, and see for yourself what God has done in Christians’ lives through Jesus Christ. See if you see the same love and positive transformation of lives that I do in Christians. Again, this love and transformation is so strong that I am willing to bet my life and spend my life serving God because of it.
Comment by: Julie
132Tom in Sacramento,
In response to your comment “There is no necessary reason why a Creator would listen to His creatures or pay attention to them in any other way.”: There is only one reason why a Creator would listen to his creatures even though he is in another realm. The reason is that this creator loves all of his created beings! That the creator-God would love each of his created beings (no matter how small or insignificant we might feel on earth) is mind-blowing. I believe God created the universe and that he loves me and relates to me personally through my relationship with Jesus Christ. These two facts are all I need!
Comment by: TXatheist
133Julie,
I read how many authors and I’m close-minded. Let me put it to you straight. I’ve read enough to realize the bible is just a fairy tale and god is imaginary. I’ll gladly examine evidence if it ever appears. Your testimony and belief that CS Lewis is good author is hardly worthy of that. What part of I’ve read that book and many others and I find the authors ridiculous did you not understand? Seriously, I don’t think you have the first clue of atheism and that’s why you think I could possibly think CS Lewis could sway me. He’s full of crap but he sells books to the naive who already believe. Heck, I could be as unethical and write xian books tomorrow but I have a conscience not to perpetuate that junk.
Comment by: Julie
134TXathesit:
You say C.S. Lewis was unethical. Where do you think your idea of ethics (that something could be right or wrong) comes from?
Comment by: TXatheist
135human cultures. In china it’s acceptable to burp after dinner to show gratitude. Did you read the book yet?
Comment by: Julie
136I believe your idea of ethics and your conscience come from God. Did you read your book yet?
Comment by: TXatheist
137Yes, your turn to read now. I believe ethics and conscience comes from Santa, the tooth fairy and elves.
Comment by: Julie
138I asked if you would read Mere Christianity now, since you read it some time ago and you resist so strongly!
You say ethics come from human culture and ethics and conscience come from Santa, the tooth fairy and elves (I get your sarcasm, of course). If this is where your ethics and your conscience come from, why do you give them any thought or worth at all. Why do you say C.S. Lewis was unethical and that you have a conscience not to “perpetuate such junk?” Why do your ethics and your conscience have any basis or worth at all?
Comment by: TXatheist
139That’s not sarcasm, god didn’t have anything to do with morality. Authors, parents and teachers do. My ethics matter because we use them to survive. Read the book yet? I am wasting my time. Get over the idea that CS Lewis will enlighten me. You buy that garbage, I realize it’s a fairy tale.
Comment by: Eliza
140Julie,
It’s great that you have had & seen such very positive experiences and are so happy in your belief and your church. Regarding suggestion, which you also made in an earlier post, to “read the the Bible (the Gospel of John is a good place to start) and ask God to reveal himself through his word”, I’ve been through most of my Bible over the past 6 months & have marked it up with pencil and from page 1 on it I, personally, not saying what anyone else finds, am struck by how appallingly full of inconsistencies it is. That’s from page 1 of Genesis, and page 1 of Matthew, and on from there. Like many of the other atheists here, the Bible is a big part of the reason I don’t believe in the Christian God (or any god, but that’s got a somewhat different basis). I would love to sit down with someone and do a mixed atheist-Christian Bible study with equal give-take but I’m pretty sure it would degenerate into the “is so!” “is not!” kind of argument. In the past 6 months I’ve checked out every Christian apologist book I can find in this county’s libraries, and googled several of my questions about what I see as Biblical inconsistencies. My experience, as other atheists here have commented, is that the apologists’ explanations come across to me tortured and/or circular, as they try to get things to “fit” their view. The skeptics’ explanations resonate far, far better with me - simple, crisp, makes sense, comes down to the Bible being a (in my opinion!!) poorly edited collection of stories written by humans with agendas & influenced by other regional religions long ago. What it comes down to is FAITH - you have in, in abundance. I do not, and it is not something that can be trnasferred in a packet.
Comment by: Eliza
141TX - how is your head? how is the wall? how about taking a break for a while & calming down?
Comment by: TXatheist
142Eliza,
Yes, just 4 more hours though:) Then the wall gets a break. Bear with me.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
143TXatheist:
Yes, I think I do understand the atheist point of view about prayer being answered. I think it is still worth doing though because it is an expression of caring for others.
I replied to you on my blog with the details, but I am NOT saying that the Bible is the source of all of our morals or that atheists must be immoral.
Comment by: Julie
144Eliza,
Yes, it does come down to faith. I urge you to continue to examine Christianity. The heart of Christianity is faith in Jesus Christ, which, when it is sincere, transforms your life, makes your life worth living, and gives you eternal life with God. Definitely well worth the leap of faith.
Thank you for your respectful comments!
Comment by: Ir
145Julie, just one comment - my life is already worth living (I’m glad to say).
Comment by: TXatheist
146Julie,
And suppose you are a person of science. That you realize that you are born, live and die and that is it. How can I abandon that fact of science and leap to the unscientific idea of eternal life?
Comment by: Stephan
147Julie, please keep in mind that most of the Atheists posting here have been Christians at one time. They went to church, read the Bible, probably read more other Christian books that you or I have. It will take an act of God to turn them around and make them believe again. I believe that’s possible, but not on this diablog. It has been discussed in other threads here that Atheists are offended by the notion on the part of some Christians that all they need is to go to church, or read the Bible or read one more Christian book. I can assure you that everyone here has heard all of the reasons to believe, and they have chosen not to.
Ok, was anyone not offended by what I just wrote?
Comment by: Ir
148I’m outraged by every word, Stephan ;)
Unfortunately I have to go out now so I can’t elaborate on how offended I am…
Comment by: TXatheist
149Stephan,
You’re dead on, my sincere props as they say.
Comment by: Julie
150TXatheist,
You definitely don’t need to abandon science to be a Christian. God created science.
You say that we are born, we live, and we die and that is it. However, the only way for you to know for sure that everything ends when we die is to experience death. Both you and I have only experienced being born and living, not death. You believe by faith that there is nothing after death. I believe by faith that there is life after death for every person.
Comment by: TXatheist
151Julie,
Could we please listen and not tell each other. I am glad you don’t abandon science, seriously. The big bang ,evolution, physics, copernicus theory won’t change if the bible says they didn’t happen that way.
You can insist that I have faith after death but I won’t agree, ever. It is a scientific fact from everything we know that something is born, lives and then dies and we never hear from that person again in any form. If you have a religious belief about something after death, ok. I accept that there is zero evidence for anything to that affect and remain that is it until proof surfaces otherwise. Please allow us to not argue as I will gladly accept proof if it surfaces but I don’t believe your religious view anymore than the tribes in Africa who believe their dead ancestors who come back as rocks, trees, or other natural objects. Yes, they really believe this. I don’t believe them nor you and that’s fine:)
Comment by: Julie
152TXatheist,
What I meant was that you have no scientific proof that there is not life after death. Therefore, your belief that there is nothing after death is simply a belief based on faith that your own ideas are correct.
I do not wish to argue simply to argue, but I did want to clarify my last point.
Comment by: Julie
153I have said what I felt I should say on this diablog, and am signing off now :)
Comment by: andrea
154Am not a xian but have gone to moody church (not any others so may not be objective) but I would not criticize moody church or disregard what they pray for
Comment by: TXatheist
155Julie,
The idea of an afterlife is brought to you by your religious views. When all of our brains cease to function upon death the neural pathways that tell you an afterlife is true will cease. I could have a million beliefs about what happens after you die. I accept that when my dog died he’s gone forever. If something surfaces contrary to that I’m listening but right now there is no basis for an afterlife except as a concept you adhere to for religious reasons and that is your belief. I don’t have a belief on that issue of an afterlife. I remain in the realm of it’s unknown as there is no science to support such ideas as an afterlife. See ya if you’re signing off and thanks for your contributions. Did you read that book? :)
Comment by: Eliza
156Stephan, I agree, you are dead on except one thing:
Will this surprise you? For me, it sure doesn’t feel like a choice. Even if I wanted to, I just can’t believe - my skeptical tendencies, my need for something I can hang onto as “proof”, are firing off red alerts whenever I get close to trying. Reading the Bible is actually a great disappointment for me - it’s so orthogonally different from the uplifting experience of so many other people, including Julie (and perhaps you), that it’s as if we can’t even look at the same thing and agree on what’s black and what’s white. It would be easier if I didn’t have that reaction & could just “let go and let God” - except then I wouldn’t be me! :)
Comment by: Ir
157Eliza, wonderful post!
I’m going to copy Stephan’s and your post to the discussion board to see what other people have to say about ‘did we choose to believe/not believe’? I hope the two of you don’t mind :)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
158Ir
Thanks for initiating that kind of interaction for us
Comment by: inquisitive27
159“What do I mean by I’m an Atheist? I mean I don’t believe in God. Or the supernatural.” (Hemant’s response - see #129)
Thanks for clarifying, Hemant. I’m wondering…is your Atheism something you believe is “true for you” or do you think it is True (i.e. that it is THE accurate view whether people like it or not?). Also, how do you (personally) determine if something is true or accurate? Would you consider yourself a Naturalist?
“Of course that’s a horrible idea. And my definition still stands. Even if torturing babies made you happy, you’d be stopping the babies from doing what makes them happy. This would include not doing things such as rape, torture, murder, etc. I thought that was obvious…” (Hemant’s response - see #129)
What else are you looking for in terms of an answer?”
(Hemant’s response - see #129)
Again, I didn’t want to make assumptions about what you meant. (in response to your “I thought that was obvious…” comment). In terms of an answer, I’m trying to understand how you came to the conclusion that “We must do good for others because there is no better way to live.” Why is doing “good” (i.e. or attaining personal happiness without stopping others from doing the same) the “better” way to live? What standard are you measuring it against to know it is “better”? Also, could you please expand on your definition of “happy” - you mentioned how raping, torturing or murdering a person would cease to make them “happy”. What happens if a mother refuses to buy a particular toy for her child (the child already has two similar toys) and the child begins to cry and scream..obviously in distress. Would you consider that a violation of that child’s happiness? S/he will not get to have that toy to play with. I guess I’m thinking that “happiness” and what makes another person “happy” is so subjective. Even further, why should one care whether another person is “happy”? If it’s because “we must do good” then it seems to me that’s just circular reasoning.
A lot of questions, I know. Thanks in advance, Hemant, for sharing your thoughts.
P.S. - TXAtheist, you are welcome to comment if you would like to.
Comment by: Jeff
160Hemant thank you for visiting our prayer meeting on Wednesday! I haven’t been able to attend lately due to work hours etc., so you actually gave me insight to things going on. I assure you most Christians would agree that we ask similar questions regarding prayer and more specifically what God expects us to do corporately and privately. One the one hand when we look at what Jesus taught, praying in private is by far more important and our personal communication with God critical. We believe according to the bible and traditions prayer is talking to an otherwise invisible Lord who receives our “honest” prayers and submits them to the Father (who is heaven’s CEO) and He acknowledges them and/or grants the requests. Either way God is the focus of prayer, not us and certainly not our trivial concerns. What I mean is Christians are to report to our Lord as servants and chat with our “Savior” as friends. Whether the prayer is doing anything really shouldn’t be the focus, God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is DOING something all the time whether we pray our not. So one component to prayer is obedience, another is honor or praise, and then there is companionship or fellowship which is vertical (to God) and horizontal (to others). In a prayer meeting you are hearing any of those three things taking place. Lastly, because it was Missions Conference week much on the hearts of those in attendance was outreach. Jesus offended people with outreach and those who follow Him do as well. That being the case while it may sound disrespectful to speak of Islam as a bondage it is said in the context of offering the way of Christ. If you have a medicine that you believe can cure anything and in another nation they have a medicine that helps but doesn’t cure how do you convince them to try your medicine. And, that in order for it to work you have to give up everything else you use and trust this alone. That would offend many, especially if government, money, and safety prevented you from having this cure. We believe Jesus is the cure for a sin-sick world and Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Agnostic, Bahai, Mormon, atheist and everything else is not a cure.
Isaiah 59:6 talks about what is real and lasting…
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look at the earth beneath; for the heavens vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like manner;] but my salvation will be forever, and my righteousness will never be dismayed.
Comment by: Ir
161Jeff, I’m really scratching my head over this one.
Everytime I ask anyone anything I try to first consider “will this request actually do anything?” because otherwise it’s a complete waste of time asking, isn’t it?
It seems like a key question to me, yet you wrote that “Whether the prayer is doing anything really shouldn’t be the focus”. How can that be?
Comment by: Julie
162TXatheist,
OK, one more comment :) I don’t think the evidence you are looking for will ever be available to humans. For whatever reason, God has not designed things that way. Maybe it is so we will have to have faith. Certainly, as a Christian, there are many times that I wish things were more black and white. I struggle with ideas in the Bible and issues in my daily life that I do not understand fully.
However, the evidence I have seen in the changed lives of other Christians after they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and in myself is strong enough for me to stake my life on belief in Christ.
I urge you not to wait for the evidence you are looking for, to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, because I do not think such evidence will ever exist. So much of the Bible makes sense only after you have believed in Jesus Christ. A person’s eyes are truly opened.
That being said, there are issues that may not be fully understood on earth even by Christians. We may only understand these things in heaven when we see God face to face. Of course, we all (myself included), would prefer to understand everything completely right now. I don’t think this is the reality of how God has designed the world. I urge you again, not to wait for the evidence you are looking for. You will wait until your life is over, and then it will be too late.
I say these things to argue, but because I do care about those, like yourself, who do not know Jesus Christ. As Jeff has stated above, if I know of a medicine that can cure the sin-sick human heart, I would be selfish not to share that with those who do not know of this medicine (that is, faith in Jesus Christ).
Comment by: TXatheist
163Julie,
I agree with you there never will be evidence of god for us humans:) I disagree that’s because god didn’t design it that way though. Julie, I know you mean well but you will absolutely have to accept I am a content atheist. You can urge all you want but I am no more in fear of what god may do. I don’t live like that anymore. If god is love or god is hate it’s irrelevant and if I meet god he has some explaining to do, a lot of explaining to do.:) You do realize I don’t think Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. Now get to reading that book!:) please.
Comment by: Julie
164You’ve made your choice for now.
Unless you do accept Jesus Christ, I’m afraid you are the one that will have to try to do the explaining when you meet God (an impossible task).
I’m really signing off now.
Comment by: TXatheist
165Julie,
I will never have to worry or be afraid then. God is only a myth and I’ll never meet him and therefore you’re right, it’s impossible. Read the book for the last time, it will enlighten your view on my reasons.
Comment by: Jeff
166Thank you. In response to my earlier comment I attached the whole statement to be read in context (just as Bible text should be read BTW).
To add to the specific question, what God is doing with our prayers is never clear because Jesus is our intercessor and the Holy Spirit is the inpiration of “True” prayer. Anything else is just babbling to you self to make your self “feel” better. Its cheaper than therapy but, useless overall. We hope Christ will grant our prayers and deliver them to our Father, but either way Jesus heart is what we are after not results. We should trust our Lord to decide on our prayers because we are weak humans who don’t really know what we want, who can’t save ourselves and will die without a Savior. I hope that way clearer and by the way I haven’t always believed in God so I do understand your choice.
Comment by: Ir
167Jeff, thanks for your response. By the way I went to the kid’s club site linked to under your name - neat ministry!
Ok, I did read all your wrote but I want to highlight particular statements. You said
Jeff, you have omitted petitionary prayer (or, supplication if you go with the ACTS acronym: Adoration, Confession, Thanksgiving and Supplication) - with all due respect, isn’t that somewhat unbalanced and unbiblical?
Why must it be either/or? Do you think Jesus wasn’t after results when he asked God to take the cup from him in the garden of Gethsemane? If he wasn’t then that part of his prayer was just play-acting.
As I recall, Jesus said “ask!” (i.e. ask in prayer) a number of times.
He actually said “Ask and it shall be given to you” and I think it’s important for Christians to deal thoughtfully with such statements, since God does not in fact give Christians everything they ask for in prayer.
I appreciate the sentiment behind you saying that but in fact I highly doubt you do understand. I’m not even sure you know me (although you might, since I went to Moody Church for 12 years and was a member for about 7 of those).
I’m currently attempting to write about what you refer to as ‘my choice’ on the OTM discussion board. If you do want to understand, feel free to read it. It’s long and involved and it’s not finished yet.
I’m hoping it will show Christians why it’s hard for me to answer “why don’t you believe any more” with 25 words or less. I probably could take out some of the words I’ve written but, believe it or not, I am already trying to be concise!
Anyway, what I’ve written so far is here:
My Story: The Questions Which Didn’t Have The Right Answer
Comment by: Jeff
168Thanks, and thanks for checking out Kids’ Club, it is a fine effort I’m glad to be part of. You’re right that I forgot to mention supplication. When I “ask” I want to be careful to point out “Thy will be done,” with sincerity. I want the heart of God in what I pray for so when I ask I’m really asking Jesus to ask for me. There is a whole bunch of people who teach ask and Jesus will give to you if your faith is strong enough. I don’t interpret that text as an open ended proclamation, but in context Jesus is preaching in Matthew 7 that the Father “has” all we will ever need and if you ask for something its just like knocking on the door to your fathers house he will never turn you away. However any “good” father will grant his children’s desires sometimes but will provide for “needs” always. If we ask our earthly dad for $1000 bucks and he knows we have a drug habit why would he grant it. When I pray for a need whether I know it or not God is making provisions for me.
I was a skeptic for so long and I based all my thoughts of God on the way I saw others who worship Him. Looking at God through that filter of course made belief stupid. But when I personally looked at Jesus and examined myself I discovered I couldn’t reject such a beautiful person. He became the filter of what I believe about God as well as myself. Then I opened my heart (mind and inner self) to what He was, did and promises. I no longer can find reason to doubt His existance and therefore the testimony of His life. It is really good news to a man who saught answers to why we live and die, our life purpose, and why there is no peace in the world. Jesus answers all those questions and promises and delivers a joy I never imagined possible. A joy I really don’t deserve. I could credit my inner peace and positive life experiences to other sources, but they started when I made the decision to live for Jesus.
I read a great deal of your writing as well as the poem. God is not in a position to express His love totally, even to Believers. That love belongs to Jesus, and He is the answer to all the mysteries of God.
Comment by: Julie
169TXatheist:
You should go read your book as well. And don’t say you’ve already read it–the challenge is for you to read it now.
Comment by: Ir
170Hi Jeff,
Thanks for reading my response and acknowledging that you did forget supplication. I think that (accidental) omission was what I sensed and was responding to in my original response to you but maybe it took me two responses to hone in on it :)
Thanks for sharing your testimony. I respect your faith and I understand; I was there once too.
I have as much joy as I had as a Christian.
That’s a very Christian way of looking at humanity. I’ve moved away from such extreme negativity. I appreciate the joy I have and I do not consider it proof that I am ‘better’ than people with less joy. I prefer to say it that way.
[Christian hat on] I’m not really sure what you’re trying to emphasize here. What you wrote above seems like semantics to me. Whenever I write/wrote ‘God’ I was not excluding Jesus. Why not say it this way “God has fully expressed and continues to fully express his love through Jesus”, rather than “God is not in a position…but Jesus…”? What you wrote seems to me to make too much separation between ‘God’ and ‘Jesus’.
Thanks for reading what I wrote.
Comment by: Jeff
171Yeah, you know how you write something and know you didn’t make it clear enough but, can’t think of a way to say it differently.
I know this sounds confusing. What I want to express is that Jesus is the only way I can communicate with the Father and recieve the love that he “completely” has to offer me. God (the Trinity) loves me and did before I ever knew it, but the deeper love my heart craves can only be found through my relationship with Jesus. If you have a true love in your life then you can understand how that relationship changes the way you love yourself and ultamately life itself. Jesus fills that position of love defined and expresses a will I didn’t have before.
Thanks for writing back.
Comment by: Zamo
172“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
“I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. ” John 10:10
Comment by: Ir
173Please post further comments about this review here.