Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 03.24.2006 /
The question Jim proposed was: “What would be the equivalent experience christians could participate in to see how it feels to be an outsider in an atheists world.”
I’m reiterating some things already mentioned by Ir, but here’s a short list:
1) Attend a local Atheist/non-believer meeting. Atheist Alliance International has compiled a Freethought Directory of nearly every major secular organizations’ affiliate groups. That directory is found here: http://www.atheistalliance.org/directory/list.php.
2) Read a discussion board for Atheists– Add your thoughts to the topic. The Internet Infidels has the largest discussion board for non-believers. It’s found here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php. You have to register (for free) to post, but it’s worth it.
3) Listen to Atheist podcasts. Here’s a brief list of some of them (the links are how to subscribe to them for free via iTunes or other RSS listener):
Secular Student Alliance (my group): http://www.secularstudents.org/taxonomy/term/20/0/feed.
Institute for Humanist Studies: http://ihs.libsyn.com/rss.
The Infidel Guy: http://www.infidelguy.com/infidelguy_shows.rss.
4) Talk to Atheists. We’re everywhere. Or keep commenting on this blog :)
Comment by: David S
1Not to be a pain but I disagree somewhat with this blog post. I suppose it would help you see what it’s like to be an outsider, but I don’t think it’s representative of the atheist world or experience. Atheism isn’t really a religion and most atheists I know don’t participate in that sort of stuff. If you want to experience the atheist world, just live your life without trappings of religion and god and think for yourself. Spend time with your family instead of going to church on Sunday. Put out your own effort instead of praying for something. Make decisions based on your own best reasoning instead of what some religious scripture or authority says is the correct decision. That sort of stuff will also make you an outsider in the world we live in.
Just my opinion.
Comment by: Ir
2David, I think the suggestions were just to help Christians/Jesus followers see what it’s like to be an outsider.
I don’t see how Christians/Jesus followers can experience being an atheist unless they actually change their beliefs - which isn’t something a person can make a simple decision to do, like changing clothes.
I would rather you avoid making implicit generalizations like “Christians don’t think for themselves”.
Many Christians go to church with their families so this is a false dichotomy.
Many Christians put out their own effort as well as praying, so this is a false dichotomy.
Many Christians use their reasoning to apply what the Bible says to their lives, so this again is a false dichotomy.
Being an atheist does make someone an outsider, but as I said, it’s not a simple decision anyone can make just like changing clothes. Even if they wanted to. And why would a Christian want to become an atheist any more than an atheist would want to become a Christian? People don’t abandon their beliefs/non-beliefs unless they are having problems with them.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
3Ir, thank you.
Comment by: David S
4Let me make it simplier so I don’t get a line by line critique that somehow manages to miss the point. Don’t go to church, don’t pray (or otherwise look to the supernatural), don’t look to scripture/religious authority. That’s would be more similar to how a typical atheist lives than all the stuff in the original blog post about atheist podcasts that almost no atheists I know listen to.
I agree you can’t change your beliefs like a set of clothes, however just like Hemant is going to church, you can NOT do such things and see what it’s like.
Though frankly I don’t think Christians would do such things. Would they stop praying? Would they draw conclusions without it being the one that bible wants them to make? They are really not free to do such things. And that’s the point.
Comment by: Lisa W.
5Ir, you said exactly what I wanted to say. Thank you.
And, David, we really are ‘free to do such things.’
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6David S - Maybe if you offered to pay a Christian one of us would consider temporarily trying on the attitudes and behaviors you suggest “with an open mind” to see if (like Hemant is doing for Off The Map) and see if we find /experience something that “deconverts” us. Just a thought
Comment by: Ir
7I was wondering about this: is Hemant going to church to see what it feels like to be a Christian/Jesus follower, or to listen to the message and the people there to see whether they have anything to say worth further investigation?
Perhaps only Hemant can answer this. My guess is it’s the latter, because surely doing the outward things Christians/Jesus followers do doesn’t give you the experience of being one on the inside?
Comment by: David S
8Jim, I might if I thought it had a shot at deconverting anyone. However I don’t think it would be anywhere near enough to change underlying beliefs. Having gone through what it takes to change my beliefs, I know it’s not a small matter (and deconversion from Christianity direction is the tough direction).
Someone that doesn’t believe in the supernatural can go to church but does that make them start believing in the supernatural? Someone that believes in the supernatural can stop going to church and praying and such, but does that end the supernatural belief? In either case the external trappings naturally follow the internal belief.
I know what it’s like to believe and what it’s like to not believe. I couldn’t choose one way or the other way if I wanted to. The change is a lot of time (on the order many years but I think faster for conversion TO religion as that is a leap of faith), thought, and internal pain. It’s not likely to come without some sort of significant driving force from within. You can see the sort of driving forces it takes by listening to Christian conversion testimonies (look for learned atheist to Christian if you can find one) or reading ex-Christian deconversion stories.
However as I said all the atheists I know personally don’t belong to atheist groups, listen to atheist podcasts, or anything like that. They are just normal people you find all around you each day (and one or two might even be in your church group). They’re just ordinary people that live their lives without supernatural belief.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9You make it sound as if becoming an Atheist is a much more thoughtful process, which I assume you do believe since that is what it has been for you- when you talk like that you make it sound like all other people have had your experience which as you know is not nor can it be the case.
The change is a lot of time (on the order many years but I think faster for conversion TO religion as that is a leap of faith), thought, and internal pain
So there is no moment when one becomes an atheist- no aha - its all logical - rationale from beginning to end - While I admire that it certainly doesn;t sound human but maybe there are people out there like that. Not ALL christians do the leap of faith thing (sounds like you came from a school of thought that promoted that approach) Again when you characterize christians in a simple category you may feel good (and still be wrong) but in the process you send a message to the group you disagree with that while they have a right to “believe in fairies” their pretty stupid for doing so. The group that I have been most familiar with who use that tone are fundamental Christians - when I hear that tone of dismissive communication I know a religious person is on the ground - they just don’ty adhere to the christian religion but they are religious none the less. It is that group of people who drive me to take on projects like this where we invite an atheist to critque us so that hopefully we (christians) we’ll get delivered from those relgious spirits ( or attitudes for those collegues who believe spirits are fairies)
Comment by: David S
10I think you’re reading more into my post than is there. I think both deconversion and conversion are difficult–changing core belief is serious. However I think conversion to religion is easier from my observations on both over the years. Perhaps I’m wrong but that’s my experience (and one that I find supported by reading the various conversion/deconversion stories on the net).
As a side note I do sometimes make posts where there’s perhaps an underlying tone of “people that believe in fairies are dupes to those that created the stories “, (because that’s what I think) but the above post wasn’t one of them. I won’t pretend I don’t hold attitudes like that, but if you add that tone to everything I write you’ll get the wrong impression most of the time.
Comment by: Ir
11David, I’m curious - do you post on any internet discussion boards for atheists/freethinkers/humanists? Would a Christian who wouldn’t find you in ‘real life’ atheist groups, find you on any of those boards? I’m wondering because those boards do seem to attract atheists who aren’t involved in any specifically atheist activities ‘in real life’ as well as atheists who are.
Comment by: David S
12Ir (and Jim),
I’ve posted on the infidels board and others in the past, but nothing active for a few years.
What evangelical “tone” I might have likely comes from the fact I was formally trained for years to be that way as a Christian (as I’m sure Jim has figured). However I’m infinitely lower key now. I don’t go out and knock on people’s doors to tell them they believe the wrong thing and push my own beliefs, nor do I travel to other countries to seek out people to tell them their culture and religion of thousands of years will send them to hell and they need to adopt mine.
That I occasionally post on boards where it’s actually the subject of conversation for such discussions is nothing compared to my past. And I would hope nobody would think it inappropriate even if they disagree with my position.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
13That helps
Thanks
Comment by: Ir
14I don’t think posting on boards is inappropriate, if that’s what you meant (I’m not sure it was).
If you used to put a lot of effort into trying to persuade people that [in your opinion] the Bible is true, it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that you do put some effort these days into trying to persuade them that [in your opinion] it’s not true.
I couldn’t imagine a person going from caring deeply whether others are deceived or not, to not caring at all, just because that person undergoes a change in belief himself/herself.
Comment by: Ir
15David and Lisa, I think the question of “Are Christians free to do such things?” is very interesting and so I posted some of each of your ocmments #4 and #5 on the OTM discussion board, hoping to hear what others think about it.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
16Ir, #14, you make a very good, and very broadly generalizable point. Much of my work has been in doing forecasting. And the hardest part for most people, if they have to predict the future — where stock prices are headed, where the price of gasoline is headed — is to avoid the trap of projecting the present into the future.
I think that same tendency affects us in the religious arena. Whatever happens to me will happen to you, too, if I can just make you see things the way I saw them…or so we think.
I have come to the conclusion that God works with each person in accordance with that person’s own “self”. God is the Ultimate Gentleman. He is unfailingly solicitous and will never rape or ravage. (Even though, oddly, that’s what a lot of people think He does or want Him to do.) So, while I am happy to share my story, I have long since given up the idea that it should necessarily motivate anyone else…one way or the other.
Tom
Comment by: Stephan
17Ir, I think I finally “get” you. Up until now I have been surprised by your defense of Christians. I think I see it clearly now.
I used to consider myself a Republican. I served on several committees and was a delegate to the state convention. I even considered running for office.
My convictions have changed, and, while I no longer call myself a Republican, I am not really a Democrat either. But when I hear Republicans bashed in the news, my first reaction is to feel bad for them and jump to their defense. Then I sit back and realize, “Hey, I don’t even agree with them. What was I thinking?”
I think I see that in you. You’re not really in the group anymore, but you were in the group for so long that you still feel with them and understand how they think.
I respect that a great deal and hope you don’t lose it.
Comment by: Jayson B.
18David has a point, and noone should be taking it as something offensive. If it’s the truth, its the truth.
Going away from christianity isn’t an easy process. It’s a slow process of conceding a point here, then a point there, until you finally get to the last piece of the puzzle, God, and you finally let him go. I do not know of a single christian who came to atheism who did not go through this process, and process which takes years of deprogramming.
On the flip side, any atheist that I know who converted to christianity (mind you, ANY atheist that I have ever heard of going to christianity was “raised” atheist, and when I say that, it’s usually something they proclaim, when in reality they just weren’t raised religious) did so in almost knee jerk reaction. They felt the “spirit.” From my standpoint, the feeling of belonging and purpose that religion provides people is very addicting, which is *exactly* why it’s easy to get on but hard to get off.
It’s easy to get addicted to heroin. It’s a long, grueling process to get off of it.
(and no, I’m not comparing christianity to heroin, I’m just comparing the addictive qualities).
Comment by: Ir
19Yes, I think it’s very like what you described.
Thanks. I hope I don’t either! :)
Comment by: Ernesto Haibi
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