Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 03.27.2006 /
The other night, I went to Via Christus Community Church (http://viachristus.org/) in Yorkville, IL. Unlike other places I’ve been to, this was a new church– an offshoot of another, larger one– that is still in its beginning stages. In fact, the meeting took place in the pastor’s living room.
While the number of people was only around 20, they were all eager to see each other. Many were new. Many had only known each other for a couple weeks. But they were quickly united under their belief in Christ.
From what I heard, the reason this Church had begun was twofold: First, Yorkville is a rapidly growing town and people were eager to find a church they connected with. Secondly, Pastor Mike and his former church associates had a type of falling out due to differing philosophies (akin to conservative vs. liberal theologies). I guess Pastor Mike was too progressive. Many of the people at Mike’s place that night were those who followed him from his previous church. This worked out personally, since I was able to see a truly (what I would consider) liberal church. There was no “everyone else is wrong” atmosphere. That’s not to say everyone felt that all religions were right– the gatherers did believe Christ was the one true way to God. But they managed to convey this without putting all other faiths down, and I loved to see that.
The actual “service” was also a unique experience because there were no expectations of what had to be done. Pastor Mike and other members were free to experiment with how they ran the evening. This included listening to Christian rock music to open the night (Casting Crowns was the CD they put in… which made me wonder why there’s no Atheist music. Is it because we lack a muse? I’m not talking about Ozzy Osbourne/Prince of Darkness or pro-devil stuff. I mean music actually espousing Atheism). We also took some time to do some personal reflection on how we want to improve our lives, while listening to “Gregorian chant” music. I enjoyed it. It was different. I don’t think these types of things are possible when the church grows to such large numbers. And since I expect Via Christus to grow quickly, I hope they don’t lose the sense to keep trying different things when people start getting used to what they do each week.
Of course, there was the Bible study and prayer portions of the evening. But it was interesting to see how few limits there were when no dogma had been set.
During the Bible study, we looked at Luke, Chapter 3. I presume a lot of small groups talk about what was going on historically at the time, as well as how we would feel if we were in the positions of those in the verses. Would we act the same? What would John the Baptist say to us? Etc. Unlike other small groups, though, I think the benefit here was that since people were new and more informal, there was more side discussion allowed. When Pastor Mike brought up a particular point, we were able to go on tangents without detracting from the lesson. It definitely kept me engaged. He managed to address both the historicity of the time period as well as how the passage was relevant to our lives.
Throughout the discussion here, I noticed that Pastor Mike was the only one talking. When he asked questions, people would answer him, but no one was raising any questions of their own. Is this because they assumed Mike would tell them what they needed to know? Do other small groups have more Q+A aspects to them? I understand this might be hard to do at a larger church, but in smaller gatherings, it seems like a wasted opportunity to not question how we know something is accurate or why a particular thing was going on.
By the way, do Bible study groups only look at the New Testament? This is mostly my own ignorance, but I can’t remember hearing of a small group that discussed Genesis. It’s always the Gospels…
Anyway, during the night a few side discussions arose, and what was intriguing about that was that I found many of the people feeling the same way I felt. For example, there was a common feeling of awkwardness when seeing street preachers walking towards you… a mutual sort of disdain for extremely conservative Christian sects. I was actually surprised to hear this since a number of the people there were graduates of Wheaton College, a conservative Evangelical school in Wheaton, IL. It’d be interesting to hear conversations/discussions on that campus…
Pastor Mike asked us at one point to write down (and then discuss) times where we felt a calling for a change in our lives (this stemmed from the section of Luke we were reading). One woman mentioned that she was feeling stressed/overwhelmed; that she wanted one thing, but it seemed God wanted another, and she didn’t want to fight anymore. It was brutally honest. And I empathized with her words, while thinking to myself that if I were in her shoes, I’m not sure what I would do. I would probably think that I’m not doing enough. I’d be frustrated that everything I’m working on seems overshadowed by something else. But for this woman, the dichotomy of her want and God’s want allowed her to see things from a different perspective, and that gave her the comfort she needed; something would work out eventually for her. Atheists don’t have that feeling– it might work out, it might not. There’s no guarantee of a happy ending. And I think that’s more realistic, but it certainly doesn’t make me feel better when times are rough. Even though I may not agree with her assessment, I’m not sure if I could tell her anything that would comfort her.
When we finished, the Pastor made a request for people to come back to the next meeting as well as to help for a big Easter “kick-off” ceremony occurring in a few weeks. Mike said they were going to send approximately 10,000 postcards to people in the community, inviting them to come visit their new church (which for that weekend and onward, would be in a local YMCA).
I asked Pastor Mike if there were any other churches in the area, and he said there were nine others in the area. I asked why there needed to be another one. He responded that people may not have found a church they clicked with just yet. He added that so many new people move into the area each week that they are bound to look for a church. He didn’t mean this in a competitive way, but I wondered if he’d be happy or sad if the people who were looking for a church joined a different one.
I kept thinking of the Marx quotation, “Religion is the opiate of the masses” (Oh, the comments I’ll get for mentioning that…). I mean religion “sells” itself; is the promoting of the church really necessary? Won’t people find the church if they’re looking for it? I suppose a new church would want to let people know it’s out there, but I imagine very few people would get the postcard and think, “Wow, I need to go to church now!” Instead, most people would see the postcard and toss it away. I could be wrong. But for what it’s worth, I think Pastor Mike was on the same page as me, and was focusing on the minority of people that might be interested in seeing the new church and helping it grow.
I liked the way Pastor Mike ran the service. It wasn’t just a “small group,” poring over Biblical minutia. It was a small gathering of people trying to grow their faith in a number of different ways. It’s a type of Christianity no Atheist should have a problem with. In fact, it seemed the only people who would be against it were conservative Christians like the ones who told Mike to leave the old place.
I left the night trying to compare Via Christus with Willow Creek. Is one type of service more engaging than the other? Does one serve the people better? What is better: 100 churchs of 100 people? Or 1 church of 10000 people?
Leave a Reply
Comment by: TXatheist
1 03/27/06 9:04 AM | Comment Link |Dan Barker has a cd out Beware of Dogma. I don’t actually own this…yet. I have found several talks/debates on reasonworks.com I like. REM and Marilyn Manson regularly put negative religiuos comments in their lyrics. But most atheists I know don’t care about that, just the music itself.
Comment by: Brent
2 03/27/06 9:24 AM | Comment Link |What about 500 churches of 20 people?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3 03/27/06 9:24 AM | Comment Link |Hemant is bringing several interesting questions to our diablog community.
Could we please do our best to respond (like TX just did) to something related to his post and if side discussions start take them to the discussion forum (see upper right hand columm)
Here is one I liked
I noticed that Pastor Mike was the only one talking. When he asked questions, people would answer him, but no one was raising any questions of their own. Is this because they assumed Mike would tell them what they needed to know? Do other small groups have more Q+A aspects to them? I understand this might be hard to do at a larger church, but in smaller gatherings, it seems like a wasted opportunity to not question how we know something is accurate or why a particular thing was going on.
Maybe Mike will weigh in with some feedback per how he thinks about small group dynamics
Do atheist support /learning groups use this small group - open ended Q& A format?
Do Atheists sing together when they meet?
Comment by: TXatheist
4 03/27/06 9:36 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
Only if we get really drunk and are at a Karaoke bar. Then it’s actually not far off key. UU has a choir and if you count the atheist there that’s as close as I know. There’s an annual FFRF meeting in Alabama and they may sing around the campfire. There’s also the new campfire scouts or something like that for “freethinker” kids and they may sing. I know UU has many small groups of people with the same interest including choir.
Comment by: Susan
5 03/27/06 9:39 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant,
There are many Bible studies on the Old Testament. I personally prefer the Old Testament to the New Testament. “The Patriarchs” by Beth Moore is a Bible Study on Genesis 12 —50 that you could probably attendin your area. The study is an hour DVD followed by discussion. It is usually a women’s study but men do enjoy Beth also. Are you still going to go to a healing service - I think that would be a great read!
Susan
Comment by: Daz
6 03/27/06 9:50 AM | Comment Link |That’s one of the reasons I find it hard to be passionate about atheism.
Comment by: Siamang
7 03/27/06 9:51 AM | Comment Link |Hemant wrote:
Comment by: Westy
8 03/27/06 10:03 AM | Comment Link |This is a very interesting question, Hemant. It’s very astute you make this observation, because many church planters struggle with the same question. But it’s worth noting, Willow Creek is also an extremely small group-driven church. As you describe well, there are certain dynamics that become possible in a small group which aren’t in a larger service. However, those same dynamics may be occurring in Willow small groups as well. So then is a church that offers both formats the ultimate answer? I think that’s at least partially Willow’s goal.
Comment by: Meagan
9 03/27/06 10:09 AM | Comment Link |Hemant,
I really enjoyed your report. I personally love small Q&A groups and I’m so glad that you identified with the people there and felt welcomed. It helps keep my attention also to hear questions being tossed around and personal experiences being brought to the table; makes you think and gives you the option to ask questions. I surprised to find that no one really asked questions. Was there open discussion? Did you feel comfortable participating?
I also had a question about your comment, “Religion is the opiate of the masses”. (I’ll be honest that I had to look up the word opiate.) Does that mean that religion has a “relaxing, pacifying, or dulling effect” on the masses? I’m not sure I understand the comment that says religion will sell itself either.
I think, at this point, it is important to differentiate Religion and Spirituality. Religion, in my mind is simply the organized worship service we attend weekly. So yes, religion does seem to relax many. It is an organized way to practice a set of beliefs. Spirituality however is much deeper than religion. Within our spirituality we define what we believe. This affects our morals and ethics and so much more. I think spirituality is the opposite of dulling and pacifying; it seems to always be an adventure and a journey. What are your thoughts on the difference between religion and spirituality? As an Atheist what do you consider to be your spirituality?
I am so enjoying your thoughts on churches. I want you to know that this experience (this blog) has continued to challenge my ideas about Christianity and the church. Questioning is vital. Thanks!
-Meagan
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
10 03/27/06 10:19 AM | Comment Link |Hemant, very interesting report. And I must add, what a bold move to go to a service that small.
You asked about Wheaton College. I am a grad from there…although it was a very long time ago, ‘69. If you have specific questions I’d be happy to give you my take on them. I’ve been back to campus for homecomings a couple times. In some respects it has changed since I was there, in other respects it feels quite familiar.
I, too, enjoy small group studies from the OT, and have led a number of them. In some respects I prefer the OT — primarily because it is so much less studied and there are a lot of preconcieved, but false, ideas about it.
You spoke of the very different feel of the church because of its small size. A lot of large churches include small group discussions as a part of their total Sunday morning “package”, usually in separate meetings/rooms from the main service. So people who are inclined to ask questions or want to discuss are able to do so. I’m glad you got a chance to observe this, because I have found this to be the place where the real connections and the real growth that people experience as a result of religion, occur.
And no rant from me over your Marx quote. I have thought the same thing more times than I can count while sitting in large church services. A lot of what happens in a typical “worship” service (I use the term loosely) seems to me designed to appeal entirely to emotions (an opiate if ever there was one) while neglecting the intellect that God also created for us to use, among other things, to contemplate Him. Very odd.
Anyhow, great report. thanks.
Tom
Comment by: Rick L in TX
11 03/27/06 10:21 AM | Comment Link |Hement,
Unlike most of your other visits, I imagine this one felt somewhat exposed - no crowd to disappear in. What did it feel like for you? Conspicuous? Also, unlike a visit to, say, Willow Creek, you actually had the opportunity to chat with the pastor. How did that dynamic impact your overall experience?
Comment by: TXatheist
12 03/27/06 10:26 AM | Comment Link |Tom,
Can you please go to the topic Another atheist goes to church and answer my #37 question over there in that topic if you would please.
Comment by: jrw
13 03/27/06 10:43 AM | Comment Link |Hemant,
The OT (what some call the Hebrew or Jewish Bible) makes for some very rich reading and studying.
This is the only Bible that the people in the NT times had and knew.
I am in a group that is run by BSF International that is presently studying Genesis. Presently we’re reading and discussing the patriarch Jacob (Israel), and about to get into what happens with Jacob’s son, Joseph - sold into slavery in Egypt and the like.
If you are interested, the BSF mens’ study groups meet on Monday evenings. Their next “intro” night (where new members may visit to learn more about the program, etc.) is April 3rd.
Comment by: Marty
14 03/27/06 11:13 AM | Comment Link |I appreciated Meagan’s comment in #9 relative to Spiritual/Religious. I have been wanting to know other people’s thoughts on this subject. As I didn’t want to take this thread away from discussing Hemant’s most recent visit - while at the same time I feel that Spiritual/Relgious is a great topic - I have taken the liberty to copy Meagan’s comments over into the “How I Reached My Beliefs/Non-Believes” dialogue (not debate) section. It includes a poll on the topic.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
15 03/27/06 12:15 PM | Comment Link |Hey all, Pastor Mike here. First I wanted to say how grateful I am for Hemant coming all the way out to the cornfields of Illinois to visit us. And I’m especially surprised and pleased at how positive and affirming his review of us was.
Funny thing though, his one critique, that I talked too much, was the same thing my wife said. :)
Honestly though, as Hemant pointed out, we are a very experimental church, and the truth is that we don’t do things the same way every time. So while this week I did do the majority of the talking, other weeks there has been a lot more interaction. This week just happened to be more along the lines of an interactive sermon than a full blown small group discussion. In previous weeks we had been more discussion oriented. And if anyone here shows up in future weeks they’ll probably find it different still.
I guess we try different things because I realize that different people learn in different ways. I want to vary our approach in order to benefit people of different learning styles (as someone studying to be a teacher I’m sure Hemant knows all about the importance of learning styles). Some people learn a lot better through interactive discussion, some through hands on experiences (like the labyrinth exercise we did that night), and some even through sermons/lectures. For example, one of our members afterwards mentioned that of all the different discussion/teaching styles I had utilized thus far in our church, this weeks connected with her the best.
So while I personally don’t think sermons are the best way for most people to learn, the fact is that some people (especially those raised in the church) still appreciate them (or perhaps have been trained to learn through them), so out of a desire to accomodate those people, I do still sometimes slip into a “sermon-mode” (though as I said, still with an interactive spin on it, as Hemant so excellently described).
I think part of the reason we chose to do more of an interactive sermon this week was mainly because we were short on time given the amount of material I wanted to cover, and I didn’t want to risk letting the discussion get too far off track. I love small group discussions, but as I’ve learned through my time as a youth pastor, it’s real easy for a discussion to head off on a million rabbit trails and then people leave the group feeling like they don’t really know what the main point was or like we didn’t really accomplish anything. So I guess I wrestle with finding a balance between freedom and open questioning, and keeping the discussion on track so that the main ideas of the passage are brought out.
I don’t know, are atheist small group discussions less tangential and unruly than most Christian small groups I’ve been a part of? :)
BTW Hemant, if you’re looking for atheist music and if you like punk, you might try out the band “Bad Religion“. They have a lot of atheistic themed songs and I believe the lead singer also happens to have a PhD in Zoology, so he’s got “credentials” as an atheist. :) I had the privilege recently of helping to edit a book about an email dialogue between the lead singer and a Christian professor. I believe it’s called “Is Belief in God Good, Bad or Irrelevant?: A Professor and a Punk Rocker Discuss Science, Religion, Naturalism & Christianity“.
Peace,
Pastor Mike Clawson
Via Christus Community Church
Comment by: Jim Henderson
16 03/27/06 12:15 PM | Comment Link |Ir or Winn
Could one of you open up a discussion per #14 request?
Comment by: Mike Clawson
17 03/27/06 12:28 PM | Comment Link |One more thing in regards to the quote from Marx about religion being the opiate of the masses. The Christian author G.K. Chesterton pointed out the strange paradox that while Marx claims that Christianity has a calming, soothing effect on people, Sigmund Freud called Christianity a neuroses, i.e. it agitates people. Chesterton doesn’t bring this up to say that either of them are wrong, but merely to point out what a strange and wonderful thing Christianity must be to produce such opposite reactions and observations in people. How complex and unusual it must be.
Of course for Chesterton (as for myself) it is this very complexity and paradoxical strangeness that becomes the very thing that attracts and draws us to the Christian faith.
Comment by: Eliza
18 03/27/06 12:35 PM | Comment Link |Meagan -
Not to go off topic at all, but just to expand & explain - Hemant was essentially quoting Karl Marx, & was using the form of the quote most often repeated these days. It’s actually a contraction; here it is in fuller context:
He meant it pacified people & dulled them into accepting their situation(s), kind of like pulling the wool over their eyes. Hemant has already said that he wasn’t intending to start an argument by including that phrase, & I offer this here only to expand and clarify w/ background info. Now, back to the main topic…
Comment by: Ir
19 03/27/06 12:47 PM | Comment Link |Jim, Marty already opened a poll and discussion thread on religion/spirituality on the OTM discussion board. Here’s the link, for anyone who wants to join in that discussion:
Religion/Spirituality Poll
Comment by: Ir
20 03/27/06 1:40 PM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant,
Thanks as always for your comments! It sounds like you enjoyed last night; I’m glad to hear that.
In small churches everyone in the church can establish a personal connection with their pastor, as well as getting to know each other, which I really like. And the pastor, since he’s not overwhelmed with a huge congregation, can be very accessible. You probably couldn’t have had the conversation(s) you had with Mike with a pastor of a large church because you’d likely be waiting in a line to say anything at all to him and you’d probably only have time to say one very quick thing before he turned to the next person in line. (I say this based on my personal experience of larger churches)
Hemant, isn’t the very nature of “Christ is the one true way to God” a put-down of other religions? How can it not be?
It seems like this belief offended you much more when you heard it at last week’s prayer meeting than it did last night. Why do you think that is? Am I missing something?
That sounds like a ‘church culture’ issue. In services in larger churches, people don’t interrupt the sermon with questions (as you maybe noticed on other church visits). Perhaps people at Via Christus feel it would be disrespectful to Pastor Mike to interrupt his teaching with questions, since a pastor who is preaching in a more established type of service wouldn’t get interrupted with them.
I’ve been in Christian small groups with a variety of formats. The problem tends to be that where there is equal participation and question asking, there is also equal knowledge so the rest of the group can’t answer the question either. Where there is an ‘expert’ present the group is likely to be more structured and more taught.
I think the most likely people to respond to the postcard are ones who are in a church already, but unhappy with it. So the mailing is more likely to ‘redistribute’ churchgoers than increase the total number of them.
I don’t know about atheists but surely people of other religions wouldn’t love their belief that “Christ is the one true way to God”.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
21 03/27/06 2:06 PM | Comment Link |Ir writes [I don't know about atheists but surely people of other religions wouldn't love their belief that "Christ is the one true way to God".] Surely! but I think that most devout religious people believe that their faith, perhaps even their “denomination” (when that applies) is exclusively true. Otherwise, why believe it.
I find it very compelling though, that they could manage to believe this without being patently offensive.
And although it is true that the postcard campaign might attract “unsatisfied” churchgoers, in my experience, that kind of thing also attracts people who have been away from the church and are just thinking about going back. That is often the “target”, as well as, quite honestly, the “seeker”. I’m always disappointed when people come to my church from another church, because, in my experience, whatever “problem” they had will just follow them.
As in life…
Comment by: Mike Clawson
22 03/27/06 2:14 PM | Comment Link |Yes and no… there’s actually a weird dynamic out here in the far, far suburbs of Chicago. It’s a rapidly growing area, with roughly 50 new families moving in every week; and a lot of these people are either churchgoers looking for a new church in their new home, or they are unchurched people in a transitional point of life who are interested in looking into spiritual things again. So in my experience there actually are people who get a postcard and think “I should go check that church out.”
So in a sense it is “redistribution” since a lot of those people may have attended church back where they used to live, but it’s not necessarily “sheep stealing” where we are just pulling dissastisfied people from churches they are currently in.
But on the other hand, we’re not looking for a huge response from the postcard. The percentage of people who do respond is relatively low (if we got even a 1% return that would be amazing). The purpose is mainly just to get the word out and hopefully draw those small handful of families who will be excited about joining us and helping us reach out and serve the community in a more hands on, face-to-face way.
Peace,
-Mike
Comment by: TXatheist
23 03/27/06 2:21 PM | Comment Link |sorry, off topic Jim but I believe the saved life is important, the guy was found mentally incompetant and won’t be put to death for leaving islam and becoming a xian.
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060322050709990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
24 03/27/06 2:21 PM | Comment Link |Mike,
Maybe you could arrange with Hemant to use some of his comments on your “marketing” materials. Do you think “endorsed by the ebay atheist” would work?
Just funnin’ y’all… Everybody smile and have a fun evening!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
25 03/27/06 4:42 PM | Comment Link |Peter
Great idea
or “even atheists like us”
Comment by: Marty
26 03/27/06 5:03 PM | Comment Link |Mike Clawson has blog site where he has started a tread relative to Hemant’s visit. Here is the link Mike Clawson Blog
Comment by: Char
27 03/27/06 9:38 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for the encouragement, Hemant. Casting Crowns “LifeSong”, Gregorian chants and the labyrinth were intended to get people thinking outside their box. No one can be really “different” all the time, but we’re committed to giving it our best shot. By using things people haven’t experienced, they’re likely to connect more authentically to them. We’re trying old church practices like “Lectio Divina” and the labyrinth, as well as new stuff we come up with ourselves. It’s fun and working out really well. Hopefully, what people come to expect is something “different.”
ROTFL!! I respect Mike and Julie a lot and have enjoyed getting to know them and being part of Via Christus. But I am responsible before God for determining what I need to know. Two things. First, people who have been Christians for a while know the story of Jesus relatively well. So, when I hear it being taught I’m listening for some new perspective or new information. Honestly, usually I listen first and save the questions for later, so I’m not interrupting the material being presented. But I’m glad you pointed out that we were missing an organized venue to expand the discussion that way. Other churches deal with it different ways. LifeSpring, the church that’s sponsoring Via Christus, has a sermon discussion group that meets Sunday night.
Second thing - my experience is that people often think that their leaders should tell them what to think, Christians, Republicans, Democrats, the guy/gal in the cubicle next door. I think its awful but true. And then, there’s a lot of Christians who are afraid to ask hard questions. Afraid to deal with science, morality, politics without someone to tell them what is okay and what isn’t. They seem afraid that their questions will lead away rather than towards God.
It all depends on the leaders. My husband Matt and I sponsored a discussion group called Forum at LifeSpring. The idea was to bring any question you wanted - we randomly picked the question and the group discussed it. Some people used laptops and wireless access for additional information mining. Most just brought their different perspectives and shared them. We’re hoping when Via Christus is bigger, there will be enough interest to revive it.
Her struggle tugged at me too. I walked away from God as a teen because He seemed like a lie people used to make themselves feel better. I came back to God because He offered me hope that life could be better-heaven’s fine for dead people, I needed something now.
If you’ve suffered some kind of catastrophy in life, where would you rather be? If you’re looking for activities, where would you rather be? I don’t think either church is better - I think they both serve different purposes. A large congregation like Willowcreek can leverage a massive effort towards a single goal, provide a wide range of activities and training, do things that a small church can’t. A small church knows its people better, can be more flexible and individual oriented and do things a big church can’t. Is one better? My answer is no - there’s room for both. Hopefully, we can partner with other churches and use each other’s strengths - we are supposed to be the body of Christ working together hands, feet, arms and legs.
Yeah, long blog. Sorry
Comment by: Ir
28 03/28/06 7:52 AM | Comment Link |:)
Comment by: Mike Clawson
29 03/28/06 8:00 AM | Comment Link |(Okay, I don’t know what’s going on with these comments. This is the third time I’ve tried posting this and I still don’t know if it’s actually working. Could someone please reply to this and let me know if you can read it? Thanks.)
Hey all, Pastor Mike here. First I wanted to say how grateful I am for Hemant coming all the way out to the cornfields of Illinois to visit us. And I’m especially surprised and pleased at how positive and affirming his review of us was.
Funny thing though, his one critique, that I talked too much, was the same thing my wife said. :)
Honestly though, as Hemant pointed out, we are a very experimental church, and the truth is that we don’t do things the same way every time. So while this week I did do the majority of the talking, other weeks there has been a lot more interaction. This week just happened to be more along the lines of an interactive sermon than a full blown small group discussion. In previous weeks we had been more discussion oriented. And if anyone here shows up in future weeks they’ll probably find it different still.
I guess we try different things because I realize that different people learn in different ways. I want to vary our approach in order to benefit people of different learning styles (as someone studying to be a teacher I’m sure Hemant knows all about the importance of learning styles). Some people learn a lot better through interactive discussion, some through hands on experiences (like the labyrinth exercise we did that night), and some even through sermons/lectures. For example, one of our members afterwards mentioned that of all the different discussion/teaching styles I had utilized thus far in our church, this weeks connected with her the best.
So while I personally don’t think sermons are the best way for most people to learn, the fact is that some people (especially those raised in the church) still appreciate them (or perhaps have been trained to learn through them), so out of a desire to accomodate those people, I do still sometimes slip into a “sermon-mode” (though as I said, still with an interactive spin on it, as Hemant so excellently described).
I think part of the reason we chose to do more of an interactive sermon this week was mainly because we were short on time given the amount of material I wanted to cover, and I didn’t want to risk letting the discussion get too far off track. I love small group discussions, but as I’ve learned through my time as a youth pastor, it’s real easy for a discussion to head off on a million rabbit trails and then people leave the group feeling like they don’t really know what the main point was or like we didn’t really accomplish anything. So I guess I wrestle with finding a balance between freedom and open questioning, and keeping the discussion on track so that the main ideas of the passage are brought out.
I don’t know, are atheist small group discussions less tangential and unruly than most Christian small groups I’ve been a part of? :)
BTW Hemant, if you’re looking for atheist music and if you like punk, you might try out the band “Bad Religion”. They have a lot of atheistic themed songs and I believe the lead singer also happens to have a PhD in Zoology, so he’s got “credentials” as an atheist. :) I had the privilege recently of helping to edit a book about an email dialogue between the lead singer and a Christian professor. I believe it’s called “Is Belief in God Good, Bad or Irrelevant?: A Professor and a Punk Rocker Discuss Science, Religion, Naturalism & Christianity”.
Peace,
Pastor Mike Clawson
Via Christus Community Church
Comment by: Ir
30 03/28/06 8:34 AM | Comment Link |Pastor Mike, I could read your comments. Thanks for responding personally to Hemant’s comments here.
Is that even possible, Mike? :)
Comment by: Mike Clawson
31 03/28/06 8:54 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Ir. Sorry for any duplicates that might be cluttering up this board. The moderators can feel free to delete any repeat copies of my post.
-Mike
Comment by: Ir
32 03/28/06 9:01 AM | Comment Link |Mike, I think it also posted up at comment #15 - but better twice than not at all ;)
Comment by: Anne
33 03/28/06 4:21 PM | Comment Link |Via Christus reminds me of my church, though we have several hundred in attendance, after starting in a living room six years ago. Yes, it’s possible for services to still be interactive. It would get rather chaotic to have questions during the spiritual talk with so many people, but Lee (the pastor guy), asks questions and invites responses during his teaching. He’ll also ask us to break up and grab a couple people and discuss something and then give responses. I think the fact that he talks from the floor and not a pulpit also invites a more small group feel, even with a larger crowd.
As far as any questioning about “sheep stealing” with the postcard marketing, we’ve found a majority of those who come to Threads (even via postcards) are unchurched, and hopefully Mike will attract the spiritually curious and seeking as well. It was nice to hear in this small emergent-type gathering that Hement felt comfortable and welcomed. And shouldn’t we always make people feel that way?
Comment by: Ir
34 03/28/06 4:31 PM | Comment Link |Anne, I’ve heard churches say “we aren’t intending to engage in sheep-stealing” - meaning, they want to attract people who go to no church, not simply cause people to transfer from other churches.
However, on reflection I don’t see what’s wrong with people transferring from other churches since they’re making their own decision about it. If people switch from another church to Mike’s it’s not as if he twisted their arm or kidnapped them. He simply told them he was out there.
And I would think the same if your church growth was partly due to people who already go to church switching from another church to yours.
I would say yes, definitely! :)
Comment by: stefan
35 03/28/06 8:04 PM | Comment Link |Has Hemant been to Willow and blogged his experience there?
Comment by: Mike
36 03/28/06 9:19 PM | Comment Link |In regards to “sheep stealing”, I’ve actually met with several of the other outreach/missionally minded pastors in the area, and we’ve all agreed that we’re happy to have people in the area connect with whatever church can serve them best. We know that we’re not in competition with each other. We’re all about kingdom growth, not church growth.
In fact, the pastors from the big Lutheran church in our area actually offered to give me the names and numbers of dissatisfied families that had left their church that they were hoping would plug in somewhere else. Their first priority was not to get those people back into their own fold, but simply to ensure that they were being spiritually fed somewhere.
And when I suggested to them that they had a lot of potential for growth since a lot of the families moving into the area had grown up Lutheran (it’s a cultural thing around here), they actually half-jokingly said that I was welcome to take the Lutherans, they didn’t really want them. :)
So yeah, I’d definitely say that there’s not a sense of competition among those churches at least. We just want what’s best for each person and each family, even if it doesn’t directly lead to growth for our particular church.
-Pastor Mike
Comment by: Ir
37 03/29/06 4:29 AM | Comment Link |Stefan, yes - go here:
Hemant’s church surveys
Comment by: Jonathan Robinson
38 03/29/06 4:07 PM | Comment Link |Quote Hemant:
“…which made me wonder why there’s no Atheist music. Is it because we lack a muse? I’m not talking about Ozzy Osbourne/Prince of Darkness or pro-devil stuff. I mean music actually espousing Atheism).”
Have you never hearrd Bad Religion?!? Their newest album has a song, “Atheist Peace”, amoung other overtly atheistic songs like, “Materialist”. There are other atheistic bands, too. But I think Bad Religion is probably the best known.
Comment by: Hana
39 03/30/06 8:24 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant,
Thanks for another fascinating report.
As for the Atheist music, another recommendation for Bad Religion here. Their latest album The Empire Strikes First is a particular favorite of mine. Not quite pure punk but rather melodious rock rooted in punk. Lyrics are great - thoughtful and often poetic.
Comment by: Diamondbax
40 04/2/06 10:13 AM | Comment Link |Hemant,
First of all, I admire the courage it takes for you to willingly enter a group of people that do not think like you and openly engage their ideas. Curious: why did you do it?
Speaking of music, I was wondering: you seem to enjoy Christian music. That’s interesting, because I know a number of Christians who do not like it at all. They think Christian music, especially CCM, is trite, repetitive, and both musically and lyrically substandard. They would rather listen to secular music, even if it openly disagrees with their Christianity, because they feel it is better made. What specifically do you like and dislike about the Christian music you have heard, and why do you think Christians are so critical of the music their brothers and sisters in Christ put out?
Comment by: Hemant
41 04/4/06 9:13 PM | Comment Link |Diamondbax– Thanks for the nice words. Why did I do it? Because right now, all I see are the two sides stereotyping the other one… and I think (especially at Via Christus) if people could be flies on the wall, they would be shocked at the types of Christians they saw, and the type of Atheist they saw. Both were going against the grain of the image they don’t like. And the newer image needs to be the default one in peoples’ minds.
And, yes, I like the Christian music… but I don’t remember saying anything about the lyrics :) If anything, I agree that the lyrics are pretty dull and certainly not too appealing to someone who doesn’t believe Jesus is the Son of God. I remember at one Church, the lyrics were pretty offensive to non-believers. What I do like is the live music aspect to it; The singing, the instruments, etc. How often do you get to see that outside a concert?!
I’m really not one to critique Christian music, since I hear so little of it, but it’s hard to dance to a song that says Respect the Lord. And if I listened to most of these lyrics while driving, I’d probably fall asleep at the wheel.
I do agree that the “secular” music is better quality than religious music. Then again, so are secular magazines and secular TV shows. I’ll pick UPN over PAX-TV any day. I’m not sure why that is. I’d like to think the secular world just has a more diverse pool of talent to draw from, but I have nothing to back that up. Does anyone else who feels the same have any theories on this?
– Hemant
Comment by: Julie C.
42 04/6/06 2:24 PM | Comment Link |honestly I think the “secular world” has more money…
Comment by: openmindedneeded
43 04/10/06 2:47 PM | Comment Link |As a side comment, I find the Karl Marx quote to be quite funny.
I know several Russian immigrants. Russia tried to stamp out religion and replace it with atheism as a power grab. It is far easlier to control athiests in a state system, in contrast to “religious” people who sometimes go to their deaths for their beliefs.
The irony - Marx using atheism to drug his people into submission, while calling religion the true opiates.