Posted by Lisa on: 04.03.2006 /
Hemant made some interesting comments in his last post “Why I’m Addicted to Christian Media”
H: Christianity works best for non-believers when we hear stories that sound like something we would see or do.
H: It’s a different world. And if you want me to join you, you have to appeal to me. That’s not even close to happening.
And from a guest Atheist in the discussion group:
“Evangelicals of all sorts have either a hidden or overt agenda…and no matter how you slice it…you are still in it to win “souls” for your God…No different than the nutbar at the streetcorner.. You just do it with a friendly smile on your face.”
Lisa’s wondering:
Why would an Atheist even CARE about whether Christianity is appealing or not?
If the emphasis of Christianity was NOT on ‘appealing’ to outsiders to ‘join’ and if there was obviously no agenda –hidden or otherwise- would it make a difference to Atheists? Isn’t it a mute point?
Leave a Reply
Comment by: Rick
1 04/3/06 10:45 PM | Comment Link |Lisa
What a coincidence. I just happened to be reading an email forward about a group on parallel lines with OTM, but with an communications perspective. Its a group of church members, pastors and media people who have realized the negative impact that advertising is having on Christianity. Oddly (or rightly) enough this non-profit group is called Church Marketing Sucks
Of particular interest is this article which seems so muc closer to what the OTM mission statement seems to be.
Church Advertising is a Waste of Time
Comment by: TXatheist
2 04/4/06 6:27 AM | Comment Link |I have no problem joining in the idea that John Spong pushes, a progressive xianity. I can’t even get on board with that because it is my opinion he has to be in the same category of xianity as Jerry Falwell or James Dobson. They too are xians and I personally would be embarrassed to say I’m a xian and they are a xian. There are no atheists I am ashamed of. It is my opinion that if there were a greater number of John Spong xians atheists would be in unison with xian causes and idea. When Spong and Joseph Campbell are outside the mainstream I will remain there too.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3 04/4/06 8:17 AM | Comment Link |TX said
I find it hard to believe that there are no (0) atheists other atheists fin difficult,embarassing or irritating. Do all atheists like the reputation O Hair has put on your movement? She IS the public perception of atheism. Even though shes dead her image lives on. Is she the Only wierd one - was she just an abberation? Help me believe you’re human
Comment by: TXatheist
4 04/4/06 8:40 AM | Comment Link |Sorry, I meant living but yes she was something as I’ve only seen brief clips of her and she was the most hated woman for some reasons I can understand. She was just too foul mouthed. There are no living atheists that I know of that are an embarrassment:)
Comment by: Rick
5 04/4/06 8:45 AM | Comment Link |I agree with Jim. Atheism and freethought in general has its fair share of weirdos. Every once in a while the American Atheists or the FFRF sends out an announcement saying they are distancing themselves from such and such person. There are many atheists I know from my own group who would do well with some therapy, but currently are a cause of embarrassment to freethought. I have heard people say things at our meetings which I am glad never got out into the media. Maybe there are less number of weirdos in atheism per capita, but put together they might add up to a scary total.
Comment by: TXatheist
6 04/4/06 8:46 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
On this line. Why do you find it hard to believe that atheists are morally, intellectually and better humans in general? I’m being blunt but I think we get the short end of the stick on image when I perceive us as the cream of the crop in humanity.
Comment by: TXatheist
7 04/4/06 8:48 AM | Comment Link |Rick,
I’ve been a subscriber to FFRF for 7 years and can’t recall a bad atheist being mentioned. Please mention who they are. Weird? Sure there are wierd atheists but some may find me wierd on certain things.
Comment by: Ir
8 04/4/06 9:02 AM | Comment Link |I find that hard to believe. Why would they be?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9 04/4/06 9:06 AM | Comment Link |Rick or any other atheist/free thinker etc etc could one of you take a crack at responding to TX claim that he
I don’t want to be the first to jump on that statement…
Maybe he is joking (which he should be)
Comment by: TXatheist
10 04/4/06 9:11 AM | Comment Link |uh, no I wasn’t joking but obviously you don’t agree with it and that’s part of the perception problem I was addressing. Please jump on it:) I respect your opinion Jim and if I’m wrong I want to know it. I’m not arrogant just proud of my fellow atheists behavior…up til now with fingers crossed awaiting your reponse.
Comment by: Rick
11 04/4/06 9:24 AM | Comment Link |One incidence right from my own backyard: Larry Darby, once a senior activist in state of Alabama, got into the AA newsletter in August (or maybe early spetemeber) when he hosted David Irving, much to the dismay and objection of many local freethought groups.
And to give you an idea of what treatment he meted out to a person from a jewish nmedia, I’ll direct you to the article
State Atheists group hosts Holocaust denier; DSJV refused admission
A note - it wasn’t an organized event by AL atheists, but Darby publicized it as one. This guy is one piece of work I tell ya.
Comment by: Rick
12 04/4/06 9:41 AM | Comment Link |Religious beliefs or lack thereof don’t get the credit for being good or bad. Just like I don’t give a damn if Louis Pasteur was a devout Christian, I respect him for his contributions to improving the quality of human life. The same way I won’t say atheists are the rum in the coke, or cherry on the pie, or anything of that nature. Take Lance Armstrong for instance - a self confessed non-believer. People don’t think of him as an atheist, but someone who defeated death, ruled the Tour de France, and has gone on to become the biggest ambassador for cancer research. To most people the religious affiliation of such noble people means zilch, nothing. This whole deal about we are better than others is a big seperationist cause. How can we freethinkers boldly say we are superior, while saying the OT is flawed cause it talks of “Gods chosen people”.
Get real. Look around you. The folks that are the cream of the crop don’t even care that they are that cream.
Comment by: TXatheist
13 04/4/06 9:49 AM | Comment Link |Rick,
Point taken, I don’t help and old lady cross the street and then announce I’m an atheist. I honestly don’t know Darby but what was I supposed to get out of that piece on the south? He refused someone to come in? He understands Israel is a problem with our middle east relations? Honestly I don’t understand what Darby has done…please.
Comment by: Rick
14 04/4/06 10:19 AM | Comment Link |Let me summarize. Larry Darby has been active in the Church State seperation issues and due to his bold statements he soon became the AL representative of AA. But his oratory wasn’t something you’d ever like to see stored in “treasured archives”. He was our howetown version of Madelyn Murray O’Hair. I won’t belittle the good things he did (back in 2001 he even recieved the best atheist award from AA), but over the past few years he has been a continual source of awkwardness to many freethought groups locally and nationally.
To get to the point, his views aren’t limited to Israel-US-mideast triangle, but goes on to actually despising everything Jewish. I don’t want to label him as anti-semitic, but he comes pretty close on that. He speaks of Jewish attempts to preserve the memories of holocaust victims “Holocaust Industry”. He and David Irving both actually. In short, he goes the extra mile to complete definition of an extremist.
Now one would expect everyone in the local groups to dissociate from this aspect of Darby, and you’d be about 99% right. The scary part is there are still some people in Freethought Societies that stand by Darby on these issues. The dozen people that were present in attendance that day when Irving was a guest speaker at Larry Darby promoted event, are just the weirdos I’m talking about. Such people are few and far between, but for atheism which already has an image problem, these few people make matters even more difficult.
Comment by: TXatheist
15 04/4/06 10:30 AM | Comment Link |Thanks but what is good about Judaism? I mean the vast majority of Jewish people are kind but so are xians. Aren’t 25% of Jews secular? I don’t have anything against Jews but not eating pork in a healthy diet for staying out of life intentionally every Friday at dark until Sunday morning for Sabbath seems to stringent to me and ridiculous as far as behavior. It’s like praying to allah no less than five times a day at certain times. Is that what g-d requires? Thanks again Rick for your patience and explanation.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
16 04/4/06 6:25 PM | Comment Link |I suspect that every group in the world has people that make them look good and people that make them look like jerks. I don’t think Christians have the market cornered on that, although our jerks are way jerkier than most groups’ jerks…
;-P
On another topic…
An atheist guest wrote above ["Evangelicals of all sorts have either a hidden or overt agenda...and no matter how you slice it...you are still in it to win "souls" for your God...No different than the nutbar at the streetcorner.. You just do it with a friendly smile on your face."]
I don’t know about the “nutbar at the streetcorner”, but I want to point out that for all my tolerance and attempts to keep friendly dialog and relations with people who are not Xian, yes, I do have that agenda! I admit it freely… we want to see more people follow Christ. The only way we wouldn’t is if we didn’t believe that Christ was the way, which would then make us not even Xian to begin with… I suspect most, if not all, the Xians on this board will agree with me on that to some extent or other.
I thought we could start a real interesting discussion on that tangent. And I was afraid to be the one to start it… but… oh, no… I just hit “submit comment”!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
17 04/4/06 6:42 PM | Comment Link |I agree with you
I am interested in people following Jesus
I think Jesus is the center of reality in the same way Atheists think he/or anyone isn’t
I think it is disingenous for any of us to say that we don;t wish people would “see things” from our perspective - ie “convert to my point of view”
If the passionate dialog on this blog is any indication
1) We all have very specific points of view
2) None of us have changed our minds one iota about what we believe but many of us have traveled miles in “how” we believe. That is all this blog is about
So no need to apologize for a point of view be it Atheism or Jesus - we all have one
If we stop holding our point of view it robs this dialog of its passion, edge and the thing that keeps intriguing people…
How do people who are so passionately committed to opposite views remain passionately committed to learning from each other?
Let them wonder…
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18 04/4/06 6:48 PM | Comment Link |Go for it
I do agree with you but I think what keeps people coming back is this question
How can people who are so passionately committed to opposite views of reality remain passionately committed to learning from each other?
If we are courageous enough learners to hold that tension we will all benefit beyond just changing our positions (which I presume none of us intend to do anyway- so lets move onto something more interesting)
Comment by: Mike C
19 04/4/06 7:48 PM | Comment Link |Please correct me if I’m wrong (seriously) but my understanding of 20th Century history (and I am a bit of a history buff, so this isn’t just heresay) is that most Communist regimes, as well as Nazism were officially “atheistic”. And we’re all well aware of the atrocities committed by such regimes, aren’t we? So I would imagine that those are some examples of atheists that are less than “the cream of the crop” and ones that I’m sure no atheist here would want to own any connection to (in much the same way that I want no association with the Crusades, the Inquisition, Witch Trials, the “God hates fags” crowd, or Pat Robertson).
IMHO, no ideology, philosophy or religion has the corner on the market for being good people (or for being evil ones). Every group has had their saints and every group has committed their atrocities. It’s just human nature.
Peace,
-Mike
Comment by: Mike C
20 04/4/06 8:05 PM | Comment Link |I do agree with you Peter, though I’d want to be quick to say that (for me at least, I can’t presume to speak for other Christians) my desire to see more people follow Christ is not a desire to simply make converts, or convince people that I’m right and they’re wrong. It’s not about which ideology or set of doctrines are the right ones. It’s about a way of life. And I am convinced that the way of Christ is the best possible way to live.
Let me borrow some words from Rob Bell’s book, Velvet Elvis, to explain what I mean:
Now, before everyone jumps all over me for suggesting that these virtues are exclusive to Christians, let me be clear that I’m not saying that. I know that there are plenty of atheists and others who also live this “way”. I celebrate that fact - to me it means that they are already living in the way of Jesus even without knowing it. It means we have that much more in common.
So yes, in that sense I do want more and more people to also begin living in this same “way”. I think that if we all were to begin living according to a way of generosity, forgiveness, compassion, peace, openess and honesty - regardless of whether or not we admitted Jesus as the model for those virtues - the world would be a better place.
Peace,
Mike
Comment by: Jim Henderson
21 04/4/06 9:04 PM | Comment Link |You speak for me
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
22 04/5/06 5:36 AM | Comment Link |Mike C says [my desire to see more people follow Christ is not a desire to simply make converts, or convince people that I'm right and they're wrong. It's not about which ideology or set of doctrines are the right ones. It's about a way of life. And I am convinced that the way of Christ is the best possible way to live.]
And I agree with you in much of what you say. I’m not out to convince people either. But… is it possible there is a right ideology? Is it possible that following Christ is not just the “best” way to live, but the “right” way? At least in the eyes of the believing Christ-follower? Is that not part of it? I think so. But that last statement Jim made is totally true.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
23 04/5/06 5:36 AM | Comment Link |Mike C says [my desire to see more people follow Christ is not a desire to simply make converts, or convince people that I'm right and they're wrong. It's not about which ideology or set of doctrines are the right ones. It's about a way of life. And I am convinced that the way of Christ is the best possible way to live.]
And I agree with you in much of what you say. I’m not out to convince people either. But… is it possible there is a right ideology? Is it possible that following Christ is not just the “best” way to live, but the “right” way? At least in the eyes of the believing Christ-follower? Is that not part of it? I think so. But that last statement Jim quoted from you is totally true.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
24 04/5/06 5:44 AM | Comment Link |Sorry about the double post… my computer is acting wacky this morning, either that or the site… Read the second one. Can someone delete the first unfinished one? Thanks
Comment by: Ir
25 04/5/06 6:52 AM | Comment Link |Peter, what’s the difference between ‘the best possible way to live’ and ‘the right way to live’?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
26 04/5/06 6:56 AM | Comment Link |Ir,
Hopefully, the best possible way is the right way. Thanks for that clarification, perhaps I agree more than I let myself with the comments after all… (I am a “recovering” fundamentalist you know… be patient with me, I’m unfinished…)
;-D
Comment by: Rick
27 04/5/06 7:02 AM | Comment Link |Peter said:
So lets finish him off, shall we ? ;)
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
28 04/5/06 12:15 PM | Comment Link |Rick.
LOL! Now I KNOW I’m not telling YOU what town I live in!
Comment by: Esther
29 04/5/06 6:23 PM | Comment Link |Peter,
I’m very interested in your experience of the “recovering fundamentalist” journey.
Can you share more of it with me?
What have you stopped doing as a RF now?
What have you changed in your mentality or thinking as a RF?
What are the things you’ll do or think which you wouldn’t if you aren’t a RF?
Sounds like I’ve gone off track from this blog.
I’ll post this topic on the discussion board.
So, all you RFs, please come on-board.
Jim, are you one, too?
Comment by: Esther
30 04/5/06 6:32 PM | Comment Link |I’ve posted a new topic under the category of “Life with God”.
Let’s discuss this there.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
31 04/5/06 7:08 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Esther
Comment by: Ian
32 04/8/06 11:00 PM | Comment Link |Hey , I am the “guest” who wrote the nutbar comment..I am not a guest anymore..I took the time to register =) . I am not as confrontational as that in real life…
And Lisa (if it’s ok to be on a first name basis)….I can`t speak for all atheists but I consider myself somewhat of an intellectual who is interested ..I like to explore ideas…spiritual or secular… That’s why I am interested in what makes Christianity appealing as I am interested in what makes Islam,Hinduism,or Rastafarianism interesting…
There is something else I wrote in my introductory statement : “Live and Let Live” …(not my idea of course but it’s my outlook on the world )
Comment by: Ir
33 04/9/06 11:46 AM | Comment Link |Ian, welcome to OTM - thanks for your comments.
I’m curious - why are you less confrontational in real life than you were in your discussion board post (that Lisa quoted here)?
Comment by: Ian
34 04/9/06 4:37 PM | Comment Link |Ir -
I, like a lot of people , can be a lot bolder when I hide behind a computer monitor =)…
Comment by: Ir
35 04/9/06 5:46 PM | Comment Link |Yes, you’re right that a lot of us are that way :)
Thanks for answering!
Comment by: Richard
36 04/15/07 6:05 PM | Comment Link |Here’s another atheist I’d be embarassed about if I were an atheist: Ayn Rand. Other than reading Atlas Shrugged as a teenager, I’m no expert on Objectivism. But a number of students/critics of her theories including William F. Buckley and her own disciple-turned-lover, Nathaniel Branden, have written about the incongruity of her own actions as a passionate, flawed human with her theories of cold and calculating “virtuous” self-interest. I guess Christians don’t have a corner on hypocrisy, after all… though we certainly have filled the Pantheon of Fools with its most illustrious giants … from Pope Innocent to King Leopold.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
37 04/15/07 6:54 PM | Comment Link |Hi Richard, welcome to this blog.
This blog provides you with what we consider to be a very valuable opportunity: you can ask atheists questions here in a friendly environment and learn about them from their answers. (And they can do the same with you)
If you’ve never been an atheist then may I suggest, you don’t actually know what would embarrass you, if you were one. However, you can ask the atheists here whether they find Ayn Rand embarrassing and learn from their responses.
Anyway, it’s been over a year since anyone posted a comment on this blog entry: why not come join us in the ongoing conversations on the new blog entries?