Posted by Lisa on: 04.06.2006 /
It’s clear: The Christian Church has been sucked into the vortex of a consumer driven culture. Spit out on another side are thousands of congregations succumbing to the need to kneel at the alter of worshippers’ whims. Okay that was probably too dramatic but you get the idea.
The church is becoming aware of the temptation to place a high value on being appealing to those outside their congregation; to draw people in with services, music, ambiance, childcare, and singles clubs. And why not! We tend to shop for what we need. We peek inside the door and wonder: Do they have a children’s program? Do they have a music group so I can show off my voice? Is there a youth staff? Churches get sucked into the tyranny of the urgent providing all-you-can-eat buffets of spiritual and social needs. It can become a dog and pony show.
Off the Map’s resident Friendly Atheist, Hemant Mehta, continually makes a point to mention the high value he places on hearing a life application message during the services he attends. I can’t imagine anyone of any faith or non-faith who goes to a community meeting and doesn’t want the same thing. If we didn’t get at least some sort of take-home message there wouldn’t be a whole lot of reason to show up except for the social value and some soothing rituals if desired. If an Atheist can attend a church service and separate the yolk from the white, walking away with a golden nugget of wisdom, super! Bravo. Of course, there is more to church than receiving a message.
Church is supposed to be a place, or clan of people, where all those present and nearby can be real about who they are. Nothing deeply meaningful happens unless peoples’ interior walls can safely dissolve. It is not a place for checklists for outside appraisals or judgments from those already inside. The notion of ‘joining’ is obsolete. The idea of loving people right where they are is timeless.
The point of Off The Map as I understand it is to help Christians lighten up, to see that less is perhaps better than more and that a small kindness counts. A smile counts. An attentive heart counts. A cup of water counts.
Christians aren’t called to a high anxiety of “converting” others they are called to pass on the “Good News”. This is simply that there is a God and he likes us and we don’t have to Do, Be or Have anything to appeal to him. He came to us. Becoming aware of this is where freedom resides. Simple. Elegant. Counterintuitive. Not of this world.
Of course, feeling compelled to share this ‘good news’ yet reluctant about how to do it is what OTM is great at guiding us through. It’s mostly a matter of un-learning worn out methods and revealing the fresh approach of sheer uncluttered attentiveness.
Hemant is finding that he is most comfortable amongst believers who are respectful of him, thoughtful, inquisitive and kind, confident in their beliefs but not completely certain and always real. Who wouldn’t find that vibrant and inviting?
So I say, Goodriddens to the Dog and Pony Show. So’long to the checklists of, “What can this church do for me?” or “How can we attract more people?” and, Hello.
Hello, to the ever-present sparkling possibility
of truly knowing love in the midst
by actually listening
to one another.
Comment by: TXatheist
1Christians aren’t called to a high anxiety of “converting” others they are called to pass on the “Good News”. This is simply that there is a God and he likes us and we don’t have to Do,
I think there are humble churches but the Sunday morning stuff where guys are talking from Megachurches seems like an exclusive club mentality, imo. The paragraph above this is something I definitely disagree with. God didn’t do or give me anything.
Comment by: Ir
2Lisa, wow - many awesome thoughts!
One point before I go out:
You wrote:
John 3:16-18 says
Why does someone who likes us have us condemned already if we don’t believe? What happened to ‘innocent until proven guilty’? Or, am I guilty, in fact?
I don’t want to set this off in a ‘debate-y’ direction (I hope I won’t be doing that) and as I said I love a lot of what you wrote. It’s just that - this really is a major sticking point for me.
Comment by: Rick
3Wonderful post Lisa. Now let me, as a non believer who has been attending Church services to get familiar with the congregations, share one more of my visits.
Lets start with some background. I’m a sum total of geek, humanist, activist, researcher and a hippie at heart. A while ago, I had met some people from a congregatition during a peace rally [end war - bring home our troops]who had actually helped organize most of the rally. So the starting point was that we all shared a common goal, world peace. So since I have been reading these blog entries I have been participating in some church services like I had said here before, and since I knew people from this congregation I decided to check this church out.
Its called the Church of the Reconciler. What I saw there humbled me beyond expectation. This church wasn’t about spreading the gospel, but living the gospels. It was totally and compeletely devoted to helping the poor, needy, and the abused people who are overlooked by the society. They were also involved in lots of other humanitarian missions which are so close to my heart. Instead of me going over each and every point, let me have their homepage do the talking for me:
Church of the Reconciler
I literally had tears in my eyes when I came face to face with what I considered as truly selfless service. If this had been the face of Christianity all over the world, why, I would have worn the label of Christianity too. The message I took home from their fellowship was service to humanity IS the best you can praise the creation of god [that is if you believe in one].
On one hand I see my version of utopia being implemented in Churches, and on the other hand I see that Benny Hinn healing and Dobson crap. At this point, the memories from Reconciler override everything in past.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
4Ir,
Your sticking point is well made, in the light of the passage you cite, and also the Great Commission, which states as a purpose of the church “make disciples.” Everybody talks about how “comforting” John 3:16 is, few go on to say how “dis-comforting” John 3:17 is…
But I really loved Lisa’s comment
["What can this church do for me?" or "How can we attract more people?" and, Hello.
Hello, to the ever-present sparkling possibility
of truly knowing love in the midst
by actually listening
to one another.]
Amen!
Comment by: Julie Marie
5I am a member of a mega church. It has all the amenities, is very appealing, and the teaching is relevant to modern day life. Megas get criticized frequently (and unfairly, imo) for teaching that is watered down; the idea that a relationship with God guarantees you a comfortable life free from sorrow. Although that is a teaching floating around out there, it is not in my church. After all, God loved his son and didn’t spare him…
And yet…I read the Via Christus review with a wistful heart. I wonder (and I’m thinking aloud here) if the megas are most effective at getting people to hear the message that God loves us, but less effective at translating that knowledge into something life transforming. Its hard…you have to take a lot of responsibility for your own growth, and the quality of the small group experience is uneven. I don’t want to go through 4 small groups before I find one that “fits.” Perhaps my attitude speaks more about the inner workings of an impatient heart than anything else.
Right now I’m going through an evaluation phase. I want to get to the essence of Jesus’ message. Peel away that which has been superimposed. Then I’ll move forward.
Comment by: Rick
6I wish I was able to start a new post, but here is another thing I learned yesterday. Last night I had a chance to meet Dan Barker, the head of FFRF, who is really a very gentle person inspite of his vast knowledge and experience. I asked him for some input on my idea about faith/non-faith dialogue, and he said it was a wonderful idea. When you mutually respect each other for what they are, and work towards a common goal, minor things like personal beliefs shouldn’t stand in the way.
As a matter of fact, he pointed me to an organization that has been trying to do this for years. Its called the Garrison-Martineau project. I am gonna bring to the attention of all the freethought groups I am in contact with, and I urge the people with Christian background to join this group as well. If we want to work for a better tomorrow, its best that we respect each others beliefs/non-beliefs and work hand in hand. With our efforts and visions combined, we have a far greater potential at making a difference than working alone.
Comment by: Julie Marie
7thanks for sharing that Rick
Comment by: TXatheist
8I hope to meet Dan one day but I like the reference to Garrison-Martineau, I’m going to look into it.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9If this goes into the debate route (which it normally would) please take it to the other room.
Very perceptive comment Ir and one which belies your “i once was a christian but now i’m found” past. (that was a joke:-)
Your highlighting of this passage brings up a “how do we see/understand the bible issue (for me anyway) As a former BSFer you are aware that the “normal” approach is to do what you did- pull quotes out and either “make them fit” or threaten anyone who doesn’t “see” what you see with rejection.
Then come along Spong,Borg,Pinnock and maybe a little Capon (you need to read him) and say NO - that is only one way to read the bible here are five others- Evangelicals hope that no one notices these guys and pastors make dismissive comments about them.
I quit reading the bible like a scriptwriter years ago -lifting passages, repeating them over and over again until everyone thought the movie got stuck like a needle on old records used to do. ( I think CDs still do this) That approach made me crazy. I resigned from reading my bible using that approach (BTW I think people who have been brainwashed to treat the bible like a devotional dictionary need to go cold trukey and completely stop reading the bible for as long as it takes to get that kind of approach “purged” from their brains - it will take at least 5 years)
Think of the bible like a movie and Jesus is the main character - watch the story in your mind - what image(s) are you left with- THAT is the story - not all the words - the words are arguable (I Know thats controversial - please take to the discussion room and don’t expect to see me because I am so done with this debate that I won’t waste another second defending my view or arguing you out of yours :-)
Anyway - back to the movie metaphor- this is how I “saved” the bible for my head- I read it for the macro- the over arching - the themes and I walk away from anything that contradicts that image/theme/macro even if the words are reported to have come from Jesus himself.
The passage you quote contradicts my image of Jesus so I ignore it.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
10Julie you said
I think this is an inherent limitation and one which mega churches would benefit from “owning” It doesn’t make them bad it makes them have to work smarter - they will come to different conclusions but many times they come to no conclusion except to try harder to get smaller - all the while everyone else(the other 99%) are trying to get more like the megas
Comment by: Julie Marie
11Jim,
I can’t tell you how many different “how to study the Bible” books sit on my shelf. I think, for now, I’ll leave them where they are.
Comment by: Marty
12Here is the link to the Garrison-Martineau project
I am quite interested in the potential for this - and in many ways those on this board seem to indicate that many of us share the goals of what this group is trying to do. Maybe when we all come to Seattle to be a part of Jim’s program that will include Hemant - some time could be set aside to try this or a similar program.
Comment by: Esther
13WOW! Jim, impressive!
You seldom wrote long passage like this one.
But, I appreciate your sharing.
You wrote:
Thank you! Let see… have I reached the 5 years cold turkey mark…?
BTW, I’ve not seen U mentioned about the OT. Does it mean that you also ignoring it?
Comment by: Ir
14I did too, Peter. I probably should have waited until I had a bit more time so I could be specific about something I liked as well as my sticking point :)
Comment by: Westy
15Suffice to say, there are definitely those who would disagree with this approach. I’m in agreement w/ Jim, no need to turn that into the discussion here, but I would note that I believe the entirety of the Bible is a story that “fits” together. I would be hesitant to accept as true portions of a book only. It’s either true or it’s not.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
16Westy - I agree with “the bible is a whole story” paradigm- BUT - Jesus LIFE is the interpretive key to all of it- = Jesus LIFE trumps Moses, Paul etc etc
Esther - I don’t ignore OT but I have a LOT of questions about the details - so I functionally ignore whole sections of it ( as do the majority of Christians and even pastors )
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
17Jim writes
Let’s not forget that the early Christians didn’t read the Bible like a dictionary either. I agree that it takes time, Jim, I think it might have taken me 5 years, too… maybe a little less, I’m not sure… Although I think I’m more conservative than you… a little…
One other thing, I’m sick of Xians reading Jesus and interpreting Him using Paul. Don’t think I think they contradict, I don’t… But that kind of theologizing the words of Christ just doesn’t cut it for me anymore.
Interesting that the one passage that a lot of Fundamentalist Xians need to read and apply the most is the one that I am tempted to say they often ignore the most. “Love your enemies”
Peace!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18Ir - this is what I like about how your mind/heart works…
People want to be loved specifically not generally - I appreciate all the time and effort you put into your incredinly thoughtful comments. You are a master at the art of asking insightful questions as well. Thanks for all of your contributions here
Comment by: Ir
19Jim, thanks for responding to my ’sticking point’ - I really appreciate you sharing what you did.
All I will say is: I’m so glad I’m now free from making a value-judgment about your approach! :)
I will add Capon to my to-be-read list.
Comment by: Ir
20Jim, we ‘cross-commented’ - thanks for your #16 comment also.
Comment by: Westy
21On the subject of Christian marketing (i.e. the Dog & Pony show), it is such a fine line. For instance, Lisa notes,
One of the things, however, that Hemant noted he wanted in a church was one that does appeal to him as an outsider. A well run production (such as he saw at Willow) and an articulate dynamic sermon did at least give him a positive impression. Churches do want to appeal to people, enabling it to bring them in, but they also want to be a loving and caring home, as Lisa suggests they should be.
It’s interesting because a very related sort of discussion is going on over at a Christian leadership blog called Out of Ur. A recent post discusses A “Different” Kind of Church: How secular marketing is fueling church competition. Some interesting insights related to this discussion are offered:
Food for thought.
Comment by: Siamang
22BRAVO! I love those thoughts Lisa!
Comment by: Westy
23I agree, Jesus’ life and death and resurrection is the climax of the story. However, in the case of John 3:17, that is a part of Jesus’ life. Thus, something that seems central to who He is.
I’ll just leave it by saying I think we need to be very careful as Christians about “ignoring” anything in the Bible.
Comment by: Ir
24Jim, it’s so cool that you’re fully aware of how you approach the Bible.
I have sensed a discrepancy between how many Bible readers think they approach it and how they actually do. They themselves seem unaware of any discrepancy and forcefully deny the existence of one if I try to point it out.
It’s…crazy-making.
Comment by: Ir
25Indeed - we should always be careful; as Jesus said, “count the cost”:
Comment by: Ir
26Lisa, I love all these words of yours:
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
27I’m glad to see this piece strummed some heart strings and pricked some thoughts as well. We all -believers or not- want to find community where we FEEL the right “fit”. It almost always comes down the connection we feel with others in the community. All my logistical needs can be located in a certain church but if my connections with the people don’t feel right then it’s not a good fit.
Regarding Bible interpretation, I’m lousy at it.
I have a hidden gratefulness that I don’t have to go cold turkey for 5 years because I haven’t cemented myself into an awkward paradigm.
Fortunately we have each other to help us through the ’sticky points’. I am grateful for this community.
Comment by: Westy
28Ir said:
Exactly. Very nicely phrased and referenced, Ir.
And I suppose that’s what each of us feel we’re doing.
Comment by: Ir
29Me too, Lisa!
By the way, TXatheist has started a thread on the OTM discussion board asking Christians the question:
How do you pick and choose which [Bible] passages are right and which are wrong?
Thanks for taking that to the discussion board, TXatheist :)
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
30great post Lisa, well said and my sentiment, too. I recently attended a Christian conference (priced in double digits :-) ) and with my own ears I heard a megachurch pastor say, Treat them like customers. We are branding. Don’t tell them about Jesus; tell them about your church. (he was from Europe). I was aghast at his teaching and even more aghast that the hosting church endorsed this guy. I wonder if God knows about branding and the marketing schemes available for his use to promote himself??
Jim, I have been less involved in the bible for the last 12 months then at any other time in my history with Jesus. I have wondered, “What happened to my passion for the bible? How come I can’t read it the same way I used to?” Your post helped me consider a new perspective - perhaps I’m not meant to read the bible right now because, yes, I very much have downloaded it as a devotional dictionary. This is a new concept to me that I will mull over.
thanks Lisa and Jim for provoking my brain, and my heart today…
Comment by: Ir
31Julie, there may be more people than you realize at your church going through the same process you are. For the very reasons Lisa stated, and for reasons you know in your heart, they probably aren’t broadcasting where they’re at. But I believe that you will find them if you look for them carefully.
And then you can form a new small group together - which may well be the best one you’ve ever been in.
I hate the Left Behind series (and that’s off-topic so let’s not even go there) but it does have a wonderful piece of symbolism in it. The believers have crosses on their foreheads that only they can see on one another. This is a gift from the Lord to show them who they can trust. Every genuine believer has this cross and it cannot be counterfeited. It is an invaluable gift to the believers in a world where simply staying alive is a huge challenge.
What you need to do is figure out what the cross on your forehead looks like, then go look for some other people who have it too.
Comment by: Julie Marie
32Marty said:
I like that suggestion Marty!
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
33wow, Ir. You are sooooo awesome.
Comment by: Julie Marie
34I think so too.
Comment by: Esther
35Jim, thanks for answering.
Ir, can’t agree more!
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
36Rick,
Somehow I missed your early entry here!
I loved that you had this experience at the Church of the Reconcilor.
and this:
This congregation was not focused on getting more people in the seats they were focused on otherliness.
Overt goodness has a way of literally dropping us to our knees.
Label or no label, if this is what moves your heart, Rick - take it there.
Comment by: NCxian
37Lisa:
Thanks to the link to the OTM article on “otherliness”.