Posted by Lisa on: 04.07.2006 /
There has been some discussion recently about how we hook onto or walk away from our images of our beliefs. Friendly Atheist Rick made a wonderful discovery while on a field trip to a local church community. Thanks Rick for this inspiring comment (#3) from the ‘Dog and Pony Show’ post:
“Lets start with some background. I’m a sum total of geek, humanist, activist, researcher and a hippie at heart. A while ago, I had met some people from a congregation during a peace rally (end war - bring home our troops) that had actually helped organize most of the rally. So the starting point was that we all shared a common goal, world peace. So since I have been reading these blog entries I have been participating in some church services like I had said here before, and since I knew people from this congregation I decided to check this church out.
It’s called the Church of the Reconciler. What I saw there humbled me beyond expectation. This church wasn’t about spreading the gospel, but living the gospels. It was totally and completely devoted to helping the poor, needy, and the abused people who are overlooked by the society. They were also involved in lots of other humanitarian missions that are so close to my heart.
I literally had tears in my eyes when I came face to face with what I considered as truly selfless service. If this had been the face of Christianity all over the world, why, I would have worn the label of Christianity too. The message I took home from their fellowship was service to humanity IS the best you can praise the creation of god [that is if you believe in one].
On one hand I see my version of utopia being implemented in Churches, and on the other hand I see that Benny Hinn healing and Dobson crap. At this point, the memories from Reconciler override everything in past.”
~Rick
Lisa ponders:
Do ya’ think maybe what Rick witnessed is what Jesus had in mind?
Hmmm.. Service as a form of praising creation.
Let’s see..
Jim H. said he has learned to “walk away from” that which does not jibe with his image of Jesus.
Friendly Atheist Rick says he’s learned to look past personalities that don’t represent the image of the Christian community he wants to remember.
Seems like we’re increasing our shared territory here folks!
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
1YES WE ARE!
I think there may be more communities of faith like that than you know. Our church, for instance, has establilshed two LONG-TERM “mission relationships” that we are proud to feature as our own way of living the Gospel. One is with a small town in Mississippi which will spend YEARS rebuilding from Katrina. Our plan, which has been working so far, is to send teams of a dozen or two every two months or so till it’s done. Are we street preaching? Doing music ministry? Anything like that? NO! We’re re-building and repairing houses, alongside the people who live there. If they want to hear what we believe, fine, and we let them know where we come from, but we’re there to build houses. We send carpenters and contractors, not preachers.
One of the members of our congregation founded an organization to help in Jamaica (a third-world country once you leave the resorts, btw) in a similar way. That organization sends teams of carpenters, kids with hammers and drills, doctors and nurses to this one town in Jamaica that we’ve partnered with. As we complete the work in that town, we branch out to the adjoining towns. Every year the impact widens. Each person who goes brings the maximum amount of luggage that the airport allows, and we FILL those up with clothes and such… all of which we leave with the people down there. Nobody brings anything back except the clothes on our back. Our church setnt over forty people on this effort this year. Again, we don’t do this to evangelize, proselytize, et cetera. We do this because these people are so poor and need someone to build them a house. (That group has just started building some very clever hurricane-proof housing for these folks that looks very promising.) We’ve even had a few families adopt orphans from that area.
Again, I suspect a lot more churches are doing this kind of thing than you think. I wish they/we would get the press instead of Dobson and Hinn. Because, YES, it is the way of living the Gospel that I think Jesus meant for us.
Thanks for posting this topic!
Comment by: Ir
2Absolutely!
I like it!
Lisa, I was thinking of responding to what Rick wrote yesterday but didn’t get to it. I’m glad you’ve highlighted it in a new blog entry.
Rick, I’m impressed at how you are willing to let this good experience replace any worse ones you’ve had with churches.
When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, he gave two answers - “Love God” and “Love your neighbor” - but he also said they were the same; so, actually, it was just one answer, expressed two different ways.
For people who like to go to the source, here’s the passage: Matt 22:35-39
Anyway, this church is a wonderful example of how the two answers are really one.
Re: church and kleenex - something that concerns me (inside and outside the church) is that people tend to think of themselves as compassionate if they tear up over things. But they aren’t really compassionate if that emotion doesn’t translate into action.
I cried at church once for the stranger sitting the next seat but one away from me - alone, just as I was alone - because I didn’t even say one word to him in the whole service and then he went forward for prayer at the end (so evidently he had needs). I went up to talk to him after he’d been prayed for and say I was sorry I hadn’t even said hi to him. I found out he was afraid he was going to be sent to jail for his involvement in some wrongdoing. He was sent to jail for a few months and I wrote to him there. We stopped running into each other at church, but I saw him a few years later and was very pleased to find out that he was about to get married and now had a job he enjoyed working for a Christian institution.
I’ve also cried at church because of things church people said to me at church - but I think that’s off-topic - ahem.
Comment by: Stephan
3I consider all good things to be from God, so any time I do something good for someone else it is witnessing. Allowing the driver in front of me to merge, holding a door for someone, giving a ride to someone broken down on the side of the road, even the simplest things can be a witness, even without telling them why I do it.
My church own two duplexes right next to our building. We are using them to house refugees escaping violence or political oppression. We help them come to this country and give them a place to live until they are able to make it on their own. We also tutor the kids, provide transportation, help them learn the language - anything they need to live in this country. We are currently on our fourth family and trying to make room for more. We had one family from Ukraine and several from Africa - Congo and Ivory Coast. We do not require them to attend church, although so far all of them have. It’s great for our church to experience this kind of diversity.
Comment by: TXatheist
4Well then I’m God:)
Comment by: Rick
5Thanks for posting my experiences Lisa [hugs, kisses et al.].
One more thing I realized is when you help others with cameras pointed at you, you are working to please the viewers of that footage. When there are no cameras, you know that what you’ve done will make you feel good about yourself when you look back in time. I don’t want to list everything, but things that I’ve done with the only expectation of bringing a smile on someone’s face has been immensely rewarding to me. If its a service to god, yay for me - cause I somehow believe in the paradigm which says “The hands that help are better than lips that pray”.
Just another clarification - I don’t label myself as an atheist. I am a generic freethinker, in that I don’t believe in revelations of any religion, and my position on god is, I don’t care if there is or isn’t one.
Peace
-R
Comment by: Julie C.
6Yeah! That’s what I’m talkin’ about!
Seriously, this is the kind of Christianity that I don’t mind associating myself with.
Comment by: Rick
7BTW - Lisa, I checked out the link you have included for the church and it has an extra http://, which fails to open in IE and redirects to microsoft from Firefox, which is quite the opposite of selfless service :D. Please fix the link if you can. Thanks.
Comment by: Stephan
8No one wants to be redirected from Firefox to IE.
Comment by: Lisa
9Hey Rick,
Like Ir, I’m just real impressed with your wilingness to overlook the bad in favor of what you experienced at church of the reconciler (great site BTW!)
When we realize that this is probably what Jesus had in mind, not the religious hoopla that generations have created, it seems he is more accessable. Easier to follow. It’s all the layers of crap we’ve loaded on that seem to have turned people off the most.
I say we all try to create the ‘Utopia’ Rick has in mind. Starting with our own home.
Comment by: Julie Marie
10Stephan says:
Well, TX, I don’t know about that. But I do believe you are from God. I have knowledge and whats more, I have evidence…;)
Now let me show wisdom by jumping behind this lead sheild :)
Comment by: Lisa
11Ir,
I’m sorry people have said things to you at church that made you cry. That makes me mad and sad.
Kleenex: I do wonder how much Kleenex churches go thru simply because they bring people to tears by the goodness they do.
In my family my siblings and I have a quiet little competition called ‘who can make mom cry’. When we give her a card on special occasions (Birthdays/Christmas etc)We see who can write the most loving things to bring our mother to tears.
We shoot for a ‘high tear quotient’.
Comment by: TXatheist
12Julie,
If you’d like to present evidence please go to the discussion board otherwise it is nothing more than your belief just like you believe I’m from god and I accept that.
Comment by: Lisa
13LINK FIXED - sorry Rick!
Comment by: Julie Marie
14TX,
I’d need a bunch more training before I’d try to present evidence on the discussion board. I would wind up getting my a%% handed back to me on a platter. To quote my mother in law “I might not learn fast but I learn good.” I’d rather fly with snakes on a plane :)
Comment by: Lisa
15Stehan, I love the diversity your community is creating. What a great way to bring in diversity when it may not be evident in the residential area.
Comment by: Lisa
16Julie, I’m the flight attendant on that plane. Anyone care for some nuts before the movie?
Comment by: TXatheist
17Then please refrain from saying evidence:) You could have all the training in the world, it’s not training that is the stumbling block. I don’t think I’d hand your a$$ to you on a platter though, just converse:)
Comment by: NCxian
18Over the last several years, I have begun to see a change in the way Christians talk about the “gospel” (which translates “good news”). I see lots on boards, in books, among people I know, of folks beginning to believe that the legacy left by their spiritual predecessors in their faith communities, regarding what the good news is, is incomplete at best. That legacy being “God cares about ME personally, wants what best for ME, wants to see ME go to heaven . . .”.
I see many people beginning to say, I think the good news is that God cares about US (humanity). And sometimes, God cares about the earth. That his/her caring is about a bigger picture (sometimes you hear people say the gospel is about the Kingdom of God–as in “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth”) and not just me, me, me. And as they deal with this, I think I am seeing many faith communities (like my own) inch their way toward becoming more like the Church of the Reconciler.
So I am curious, while other communities are creeping along toward this, how does a community like the Church of the Reconciler rocket forward?
Comment by: Julie Marie
19that’s a neat family tradition!
Comment by: Julie Marie
20NC asks:
I suspect it may have something to do with comfort. Its too easy for middle to upper middle class Christians to assume their “blessings” are from God, and interpret this as a sign of God’s approval. Its a bad interpretation, I think…but its out there. I looked at Reconciler’s web page. They struggle. But they aren’t assuming the struggles are because God doesn’t want to bless them. I can see by what they’ve posted they take responsiblilty for what they have caused, assign no judgement to suffering that appears to have no just cause, and work to improve the lives of those around them.
Not that I want to lose my middle class comforts, but we all need to ditch the middle class complacency.
imo.
Comment by: Rick
21NCxian asked:
I had a conversation with a church member about this.
Allow me to present you with a historical perpective of how christianity started to be seen as an obstacle to progress. Till the formation of Christian coalition, the church was completely dissociated from politics. Back till the 70’s, the church provided spiritual support and truly served as center of support for poor and serving those in need. But then came the Christian coalition, which was basically an attempt of a few rich individuals to use religion as a political tool, and slowly the main focus of church kept on drifting from providing spiritual guidance, to forming a political force, not knowing they are being used as a tool to increase the profits of corporate heads. I mean, when you hear Pat Robertson speak about assassinating Chavez, I can’t help but picture religion as tool of political assassinations. I know its wrong to use such generalization for an entire religion, but thats how far the religion has merged with politics, military, and finance.
Now to answer the question that NCxian posed - Church of Reconciler and its message can rocket forward if and only if the Church can go back into its original role of helping people, instead of helping the political wing.
Comment by: Lisa
22NCxian - why does the Church of the Reconciler NEED to rocket forward? Do you mean in numbers growth, impact? They are small (40-100). Seems they are “growing their church big rather than growing a big church” as Rose Madrid Swetman says.
Comment by: TXatheist
23NCxian said
I see many people doing something to such as buying hybrids and challenging people who say global warming isn’t real. I think the effort is from the liberal left personally. Do you see this effort of caring for others besides me, me, me coming from promoting the earth friendly ideas whether they be secular or religious? Like sending people in Africa who are dying from Aids condoms instead of bibles? Isn’t that the left mentality pushing this?
Comment by: Stephan
24Rick, I would amend your church history a little to say that the church has been involved with politics off and on almost since day 1. And usually it let to bad results. The Crusades. The Inquisition. Prohibition. Even some of the colonial governments before the civil war. Various church leaders argued both sides of slavery. Usually when the church gets too involved in politics, both sides suffer. It’s too bad people like Robertson and Dobson can’t see that.
Comment by: NCxian
25Lisa:
I mean moving away from a gospel of “me, me, me” to a gospel of “us”. They seem to have grasped that and acted on it.
No, IMO the church growth movement, while well intentioned, was more in the vein of “me, me, me” and was thus a misunderstanding of what the church should be about.
Comment by: NCxian
26TX: When you say “liberal left”, do you mean politically or theologically?
Comment by: Julie Marie
27NC,
I think there’s confusion about what you are asking. Do you mean
1. How can Reconciler grow
or do you mean
2. What is blocking other churches from behaving like Reconciler - which supports Jesus teaching to address the needs of the poor and oppressed?
I interpreted the question as #2.
Comment by: Julie Marie
28never mind. you answered. :)
Comment by: Lisa
29NCxian - ok, got it. Thanks for the clarification.
I think there is an underlying topic here and that is ‘use of power’. Maybe we need to reframe ‘power’ to mean something directed toward helping others. Something more sacrificial than personally consuming.
Comment by: NCxian
30Rick, when you talked to the church member, did you get a sense of how Church of the Reconciler escaped the “me, me, me” legacy and became what it is? Did they say what might have been in the history of their own community that counteracted the overall church history you (and they?)
described?
(I couldn’t figure out what to block quote, so just refer to comment #21 by Rick).
Comment by: Rick
31I had said:
To give you the actual idea of the people I met there, here is a clip from one of the media coverages they received. I wish everyone here spreads this clip far and wide so that one day everyone you know spread the gospels through your actions rather than be the soapbox preacher.
Reconciler’s Media Coverage
Hard to imagine that I am not a Christian myself, isn’t it?
Comment by: Rick
32NC said:
NC, you will find the answer to that in the clip I just posted after your post. Perhaps our postings time crossed each other ;)
Comment by: TXatheist
33NCxian,
Both or all of the liberal left as far as politics and religion.
Comment by: Lisa
34Rick, Awesome clip.
Comment by: TXatheist
35Rick,
About a year ago I heard about the Church under the bridge. It was a church for the homeless that literally held sunday services under I-35 in Austin. I thought about going but just never made it. We had family with us a couple weeks ago when we went to the Waco zoo but I think they had one under Interstate 35 there too. I wanted to stop so bad. They had meetings going and food be served. I have a long time desire to listen to a homeless person, maybe even bond with one to understand them. I did that with a recovering convict/drinker/smoker and he opened my eyes to what turning your life around means. I’d never see that life if it wasn’t for that guy so I’m grateful to him for that experience.
Comment by: NCxian
36TX:
If we define “religious right” to mean Falwell/Robertson/et al, I think their interest in social issues in in having people conform to their view of what is good behavior (”deterioration of family values” and all that). If we define “religious left” to be Dorothy Day/Jim Wallis/Tony Campolo, then I think their interest in social issues is related to the poor, oppressed, etc. (which I guess is also related to behavior–they would like us to be selfless, empathetic, and so on). It is a little difficult to talk about left and right regarding religion, because there doesn’t seem to be a neat linear spectrum. As Jim Wallis would say, “God is not a Republican . . . or a Democrat”.
I’ll leave the political question to somebody who knows something about it. Which ain’t me! :)
Comment by: Mike C
37Who cares where it comes from or what label it wears? What do categories like “liberal” and “conservative” mean any more these days anyway? It’s good stuff regardless. It’s what the gospel really is all about. I don’t care which political ideology wants to claim credit for it, Jesus said it first.
Comment by: Mike C
38Church Under the Bridge is a great ministry! My wife is orginally from Austin and several of her friends were the ones who started that church (it’s part of a larger urban ministry called Mission Possible based in east Austin).
Comment by: Lisa
39Mike C.,
AMEN!
Comment by: Julie Marie
40thank you Rick, for sharing this clip of humanity at our best.
Comment by: Ir
41Thanks for sharing that clip, Rick!
I love the closing quote:
“If you’re a human being, you’re welcome to this place. And that’s what church ought to be”
Comment by: NCxian
42Rick: I too enjoyed the clip. I see that the church is a United Methodist church. I will look on line to see if I can see what is driving this movement within that denomination. (I realize my questions are irritatingly pragmatic–I am trying to discover how what I am learning can be applied in my community.)
Comment by: Lisa
43NCxian - Let us know what you glean from your research.
Comment by: TXatheist
44I’m trying to condense Rick and Mike’s comment into one. Maybe either of you could explain what good conservatives do as far as taking care of humanity and the earth which is what I was referring to? What does the word liberal mean in Texas(outside Austin)? Lazy, socialist, ungodly, and just about any other derogatory term for someone who isn’t an supposed uprighteous xian who allegedly works hard for their money along with someone who doesn’t constantly complain they’re paying too much in taxes. That’s a liberal to most Texans but what good do conservatives do for earth and humanity? I wish we didn’t have the label but liberal is a dirty word down here.
Comment by: NCxian
45Commercial break: Go check out Siamang’s hilarious new posts in the Common Grounds Cafe!
Comment by: Ir
46I hope this works - this is what NCXian is referring to:
Click on these to see Siamang’s humorous subtitles for strange japanese commercials:
[url=http://foshata.com/?fsh=Q4Z]fshQ4Z[/url]
[url=http://foshata.com/?fsh=Q15]fshQ15[/url]
[url=http://foshata.com/?fsh=Q5L]fshQ5L[/url]
[url=http://foshata.com/?fsh=Q5P]fshQ5P[/url]
Comment by: Rick
47You’re all very welcome. I’m glad you guys liked that clip.
Siamangs captions are quite funny! Nicely done dude!
Comment by: NCxian
48Lisa wrote:
.
What in particular were you thinking, Lisa? My first reaction was that I didn’t like the term “power” at all, because I don’t think of Jesus calling us to be “powerful”. It sounds like a hierarchical thing, I’m more powerful than you, you are weaker. I read Jesus’ words and life to be turning hierarchies on their heads.
But then I thought, maybe we could think in terms of giving power away. Homeless people, sick, immigrants, children, are people without power. Maybe I give them my “power” by speaking for them. Or teaching them to read and write. Or helping them become healthy and strong. Or serving them in some other way.
“Give power away”? What do you think? Do the red letters in the Bible say that somewhere?
Comment by: Mike C
49I don’t think I’m the best person to answer this question since I don’t really consider myself very conservative.
I know it might not seem like it down there in Texas, but “conservative” and “Christian” are not always synonymous.
Comment by: TXatheist
50I agree there are liberal xians but it’s a rare breed imo. Especially in Texas.
Comment by: skikid
51TX maybe thats a more geographical thing, I have also noticed that some of us who are more liberal are less likely to announce our beliefs.
Comment by: TXatheist
52Maybe I should say like I was mentioning in the topic “Atheists are better people.” there are few xians in texas. Either that or there are no real xians cause most of ours our fundamentalists, imo, when 78% of the voters banned gay marriage.
Comment by: Westy
53I suspect there are many examples of people who would likely be identified as “conservative” who do much for humanity. Like no political party has a monopoly on Jesus, neither liberal or conservative have a monopoly on service.
Some organizations doing great things:
Samaritan’s Purse
Compassion
Wellspring
World Vision
Mennonite Disaster Services
Breakthrough Urban Ministries
Buckhead Christian Ministry
Christian Community Development Association
Comment by: Mike C
54Check out Sojourners. There are more of us than you might think.
Comment by: Lisa
55NCxian -
regarding:
That’s exactly what I was thinking.
Comment by: TXatheist
56I’m aware of Sojourners and yet have never actually heard of anyone who subscribes to it. Maybe in Illinois where liberal isn’t a dirty word but I’ll keep listening for it. I’ve thought about subscribing to the Nation but haven’t yet. I like Freethought Today. That’s my paper of choice.
Comment by: Mike C
57Yeah, it must be tough living there in the heart of the Bible belt. My wife has told me the horror stories, and she’s even from Austin! The liberal island in the middle of a deep crimson state.
But there are over 100,000 people who subscribe to Sojourners nationwide, and more being added everyday. Jim Wallis, Tony Campolo and others like them are generating a lot of momentum for a new movement of politically progressive Christians.
It gives me hope. As Wallis often says, “The monologue of the Religious Right is over!”
Comment by: TXatheist
58I hope you are right. The Austin American Statesman is supposedly liberal but I find it conservatively moderate at best and it has 250,000 subscribers. I’ll check out Sojourners next time I’m at the checkout line or book store.
Comment by: Organic Church » Being the gospel
59 04/10/06 8:42 AM | Comment Link |[...] I suspect many of you have been reading the Off-the-map ebay atheist blog, it is a great blog but this post particuarly interests me:There has been some discussion recently about how we hook onto or walk away from our images of our beliefs. Friendly Atheist Rick made a wonderful discovery while on a field trip to a local church community. Thanks Rick for this inspiring comment (#3) from the ‘Dog and Pony Show’ post: [...]
Comment by: Trudy Kirk Ray
60I want to say this is such a blessing and an inspiration to hear that there are churches actually doing what Jesus told us to do. I go to a church where the preacher receives not the first red cent from offerings. We feel that lining somebody’s pocket was not Jesus’ idea. We take most of the money and help the community around us and we also support a bikers prison misson as well as poundings. If you don’t know what a good ole southern pounding is well it’s where you go to the grocery store and buy the things you like and take it to the church where everyone throws it in the car of the needy person/family. It’s alot of fun. if you’ve never done it I would suggest you try it. The feeling you get is marvelous when you know the receiver really appreciates it. We don’t get to do all the fancy things because we are all on meager incomes and the church itself is small only about 50 members or so but everyone knows about Harmony Church.
Anyway, God bless everyone at this site!
Trudy Kirk Ray April 10
Comment by: Kevin Higgs
61Hello, I am Kevin Higgs, Pastor of Church of The Reconciler, downtown Birmingham, Alabama. Thank you for your words of encouragment. Our Church began with a commitment to Radical Hospitality and compassion without apology. We are a Church by, with, and for those who are poor in all things. We are rich in God. May God’s peace be with you. When you are in Birmingham, please come to share time with us.
Comment by: Mike C
62Welcome Kevin. Feel free to join the conversation.
Oh, and keep up the good work down there in Birmingham!
Peace
Comment by: Laura
63Very nice site! http://furniture.awardspace.co.uk/