Posted by Lisa on: 04.10.2006 /
WHO’S DOING THE WOUNDING?
WHO’S DOING THE HEALING?
I recently gleaned these comments from the discussion board in the Debate Forum.
Christianity is making you think you’re ill when you’re not so they can sell you a solution. Isn’t making someone believe they are hurt when they’re not similar to cutting them (at least in the person’s mind)? So then the metaphor that Christianity cuts you to sell you a bandage isn’t wrong. It’s just that the “cut” is in your mind, which some might claim is worse than a physical cut. A physical cut can heal itself. If you believe in it, this mental cut never heals and requires a “savior” (that they conveniently provide). Some people never get over the “mental cut” even with the supposed band-aid and it hurts them quite badly in this life. Others deal with it ok but still end up sacrificing their time, efforts and money to a church and actually strive to give others the same mental wound.
If the whole thing is a sham (as I think it is) it’s an appalling situation.
and
That’s one of the big hindrances to evangelism - all those people who won’t ‘admit’ they have the problem which requires the solution the Christians are selling.
Comment by: Ir
1Conservative Christian doctrine, properly understood, combines 1)”no one is perfect” with 2)”therefore no one is acceptable to God, because God is perfect” and 3) “You can be acceptable to God if you want to be, because of Jesus’ death on the cross”.
I would be surprised to find anyone who seriously denies 1); so presumably that is not what is being described as a ‘mental cut’.
2) taken alone implies “you’re not acceptable as you are” which certainly can be a ‘mental cut’. I think it would be much more likely to have a seriously negative effect on those people who, in childhood, are continually given rejecting messages that they are not acceptable: the baby who was kept but never really wanted; the girl who arrived when the parents wanted a boy; the child whose father didn’t care and left; the child who could never live up to the parents’ standards (probably because he/she was only a child). People with these backgrounds may well feel the hurt that God too finds them unacceptable as they are; but I think that to others, who have been generally accepted in life, it’s just a ‘construct’ which makes logical sense to them assuming God exists and is perfect and since they aren’t. It’s not really a mental cut; it’s just a ‘framing’ of a concept which Christians are trying to persuade them is true.
3) If believed 3) can help resolve 2) - for the former category above who have lived thinking they are unacceptable, this is very much an emotional issue; they are most susceptible to being emotionally manipulated by “God doesn’t accept you but actually He does in Jesus”. For the latter category, it is more of a logical resolution than an emotional one. They probably appreciate it but I don’t know that they deeply feel it. These type of people - I think - are the ones who are in danger of too easily accepting doctrines of eternal torment.
3) resolves 2) if believed, but for those who can’t believe because the evidence just doesn’t do it for them, it is clearly discriminatory that one has to believe to be accepted by God.
A problem with 2) and 3) is that they are supposed to be kept together so that 2) leads to 3) leads to “you’re ok; you’re accepted by God”. (I know this still doesn’t resolve the issue: ‘what if you can’t believe’?) But as an unchurched teenager at a church middleplushigh school, I saw 2) and didn’t see 3) (why is this?) in the language of the school chapel services we attended every week. We were confessing our sins and unworthiness. I remember distinctly thinking at the time - which was before I ever heard or understood ‘the gospel’ - if God exists I can’t believe he wants people grovelling before him continually saying how sinful they are. Why did I not see 3) in the Anglican liturgy? Is it there but I missed it?
So - is it a mental cut? Maybe to some; but not to all. That’s my observation.
Comment by: Stephan
2Nice analysis, Ir.
I would add that the amazing thing is that God loved and valued us enough to provide 3). During this time of year much is made of the crucifixion, and for good reason. It is through this that God made the final sacrifice to redeem all of creation. But (I am going to sound a little heretical here) I am honestly not so amazed by the crucifixion. Let me put it this way. If you knew that a few days of torture and a painful death would save the entire population of the world, would you do it? I believe all but the most hardened of us would probably say yes. Not to belittle the suffering He endured, but I think most of us, if given the choice, would do the same thing given the stakes.
What amazes me more is that Jesus chose to leave heaven and live on earth, and that He did it all without sinning.
Take the first part of that. Imagine you live in the most palatial estate in the most beautiful spot on earth. Now imagine someone asks you to move out and live with the street people in Mexico City. It’s hot, it’s dusty, you have nowhere to live, you get no respect. People don’t recognize that you are somebody important, but they spit on you and shun you for living on the streets. This doesn’t even begin to describe the sacrifice Jesus made when He came to earth.
Now the second part of that sentence. I can’t seem to go five minutes without sinning, let alone 33 years. Even if I do the right thing, I often have less than pure motives for it.
I believe in making this sacrifice, God showed how much He values his creation. This, to me, is anything but a cut.
Comment by: David S
3The first bit of the blog comment was mine. The “cut” was in reference to man being “fallen”, deserving hell by default, and therefore needing a savior.
Obviously no one is perfect. However it’s one heck of a big jump from no one being perfect to we’re all “fallen” and deserving of eternal torment. Some different religions might even see that teaching as blaspheme and that their God does not create “fallen” creations let alone ones needing eternal damnation.
Comment by: Lisa
4Ir- thank you for your insightful offering.
Religion can be very damaging. I’m glad I never learned the Conservative Christian doctrine you mention above. I was raised Catholic which implies an underliying tide of guilt but I never got that message that God finds us unacceptable.
It wasn’t till college, and get this: Campus Crusade for Christ, introduced me to another way of thinking of the gospel. As a catholic I was never even introduced to the bible. That itself was a kind of cut for me I think.
Or maybe it was good… I don’t know.
But, ultimately I learned that the word SIN simply means ‘falling short of the mark” as in ’sine’ in archery. That made me feel better.
And frankly, I was doing a halfassed job of being the God of my own world.
Sometimes it does take someone outside of yourself to say, in the words of Dr. Phil, “So, how’s that working for you?” For me I was living behind a facade with a culture that reinforced it.
Comment by: TXatheist
5To me, imo, that’s why xianity is so abundant in the USA. It’s rarely truly challenged and the idea of heaven is too desirable to overcome. I think it preys on the emotion of wanting something better than the current life and who wouldn’t want a perfect life, heaven?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6I agree with TX - But mostly only in the non coastal regions (the red states). The Conservative Christian message has cultural roots that provide a “rationale” receptive to the pitch. If escaping hell and “making” heaven is the christian payoff (as it is commonly understood to be both by non christians and christians) then you need a delivery system that
provides an onramp into that “reality” Thus we (christians)have over time co created a story that fits this outcome. (See Ir #1 for a more thoughtful and technically correct explanation)
The probelem as TX points out is that (at least in the red states) this story is rarely challenged or exposed to serious cultural (a much more powerful and important form of scrutiny than intellectualism - which most people do not connect with which imo is why debates are a waste) scrutiny. That is why when christians simply invite the scrutiny in a non debate environment - non christians find it surprising.
But why not - what have we got to hide? And what is it that we don’t want to know or hear?
If the Jesus story (not talking Christianity now) is real - then it is real and it is time that we join our supposed idealogical enemies and actually assist them in blowing up the lie.
The Jesus story will survive if it is real
Comment by: TXatheist
7Jim said;
Jim,
Can you elaborate? It appears you got cut off and I’m struggling to understand if you are saying the Jesus story is real. Died, buried, rose again, healed, heaven is true because JC said so is running through my head when you say Jesus is true.
Comment by: Stephan
8I think Jim just drove through a tunnel.
I agree that the “get your butt into heaven” theology is very limiting. That is why, when I talk about the gospel, I use the phrase “redeem all of creation”. It’s not just about the final reward. It’s about the day to day walk and MTWABP.
Comment by: Julie C.
9mixed feelings on this one… I think modern American christianity has been way too influenced by behaiviorism. we opperate on a rewards/punishment system. we dangle the reward of heaven or the punishment of hell and force people to make a choice. then maybe we tell them about the ways christ told us to live and transform our lives. we have seriously warped the gospel and made it about getting our butts into heaven.
but i also completely acknowledge that there are hurting people out there who need healing and that many many people have been able to find healing through god/jesus/the church. christians should be willing to offer this help (not force it). what scares me are the number of places that tell hurting people that they aren’t hurting because of the reason they are hurting. like all the womens magazines that tell women that the emotions the are feeling from sexual encounters or abortions aren’t real because they have to completely support free sex and abortion (please I’m not wanting to argue those topics) - just that I think if people are hurting they should be offered healing…
Comment by: Lisa
10If I had to choose between sharing a table at a cafe with a conservative christian (ie: IR’s doctrine statement in comment #1) and an atheist/agnostic/freethinker, I would choose the latter of the two immediately. I just don’t get that conservative ‘delivery system’ as Jim puts it. And I really sucked at ‘cold call delivery of the gospel by way of the 4 laws pamphlet’ in college.
Let’s “blow up the lie” !
Comment by: TXatheist
11Julie C said
Julie C,
If I said it only makes them even more vulnerable by teaching them ideas found in the bible would you understand where I’m coming from? They are hurting and then pounding ideas like they can be saved, or they are sinners or that god loves them(instead of real people). I see these as only crippling them intellectually instead of finding a way to truly help the hurting.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
12TX - I amended my end comment- I did get stuck in a tunnel
Do I mean the Jesus Story you mention ( death/ress/heaven/hell?)NO but do I personally believe in those pieces- YES- but I realize that we are not going to settle our differences over those issues ever, so I will not spend anytime trying to convince others about the Christian view of history.
The Jesus Story I refer to is this
He is God (remember it is just a story I believe in - I don;t need it to be a fact (which I do believe but won’t fight over) to make it real and to test it’s application (see church of the reconciler/ habitat for humanity / mother teresa / as well as some other unknown to others personal friends)
Jesus came to offer one message - that no other religio-spiritual figure has ever taken on
God Likes People
His life was a movie that communicated that story.
I don’t care about the historical stuff - people on both sides manipulate the facts to adjust to their theories. I will never bet my life on Atheist view or Christian view.
I bet my life on the Jesus movie. That is what I mean when I say Jesus Story- not much else to offer/defend or explain.
And in the final anyalysis - that story will either prove to be real or not and I am fine looking back on my life and saying - I tried!
Comment by: TXatheist
13Fair enough Jim, you understand and respect our differences. Ghandi wasn’t a good guy or at least equal to Jesus in transmitting a god(Brahma) message of compassion and love?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
14Ghandi - was a good guy but was also complicit in spreading Brahminical Hinduism perhaps the most insidious religion ever invented by mankind.
Now theres a religion that should piss some people off
Comment by: TXatheist
15What? Hinduism is a bad religion? I’m not following you Jim.
Comment by: Julie C.
16yes it can make them more vunerable, but I dont see it as a bad thing. okay to use a cheezy metaphor that may completely fall apart. if someone of hanging from the edge of a cliff, they are in a bad position but somewhat safe as long as they hold on. you throw them a rope which can help them. they have to let go of the cliff to grab the rope - it is more dangerous and puts them in a very vunerable position to do that. it could hurt them more by causing them to fall or it could save them. my choice would be to offer the rope…
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
17Julie C., I like your analogy.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18TX
Check these out
http://www.truthseekers.ext1.com/product.php?store=227&promo=4359
http://off-the-map.org/idealab/articles/idl0504-1-social.html
Comment by: Jim Henderson
19TX
Check this out
http://www.truthseekers.ext1.com/product.php?store=227&promo=4359
Comment by: Jim Henderson
20TX Check this out as well
http://off-the-map.org/idealab/articles/idl0504-1-social.html
Comment by: Brent
21This reminded me of something Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 9:9-13.
If someone doesn’t believe they are sick, of course they will resent someone telling them that they are - whether that person is an athiest or is religious. Jesus didn’t waste his time trying to convince people they were sick. He went to those who knew they were desperately ill. I can assure you there are many who don’t need to be convinced they have a cut. They themselves know how badly they are bleeding and how desperately they need help. The miraculous transformation of their lives once they embrace Jesus is perhaps the greatest evidence that maybe, just maybe there is something to this Jesus thing.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
22Lisa asked me to rephrase my parenthetical mess
What I mean to say is
1) I believe in the Jesus story that leads to actions taken by people and orgaizations listed above
2) I am fine with people telling me they don;t believe in the historical religious standard christian pitch per it;s all about going to heaven and staying out of hell- there is noting interesting or new about that story - every religion pitches that
I am an irreligious follower of Jesus. I don’t care about religions - christianity included
I have cultural roots in that religion but no loyalties
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
23Thanks for the links, Jim.
Here’s an idea: A consortium of Atheists/agnostic/freethinkers and Jesus followers visit India!
Comment by: TXatheist
24Julie,
I understand what you meant but I don’t think we agree that giving someone down on their luck christianity does someone good. I think you handed them a 2 inch rope. It will fail them, imo.
Comment by: skikid
25I am having a hard time grasping what this means…could someone explain it a little more?
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
26Jim said,
Maybe you are the ‘Un-Cola’ of Christians. :)
(I think I have just dated myself….)
Comment by: Stephan
27TX, my limited understanding of Hinduism is that helping the lower castes out of their misery is not only ignored, it is discouraged. They are suffering as punishment for something they did in a previous life, so they deserve it, and helping them would only delay their suffering for a later life. It’s a pretty sick way of viewing the underpriviledged.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
28It means - the followers of the jesus movement should never have gotten into the religion business. It was never the intention of the founder of our movement for such a thing to occur.
religions are cultural/sociological constructs that help people make sense out of life - not unlike the Elks club or Masons or Animists
Jesus operated in a different reality - he was not interestd in fostering the religion of his day (Judaism) he was driven to introduce people to reality
It is the eqivalent of living in a round earth where eveyone agrees that it’s flat(religion) and then showing them that it is actually round (jesus/ reality) and then inviting them to trust this cool thing he discovered called gravity (grace)
Comment by: TXatheist
29Jim,
I have a lot to learn but what is the difference between the Brahmincial Hindu and the average xian(most OTM xians aren’t average with this much open-minded conversation proves that to me) as the article states
I changed a few words because I see little difference. I’m listening though
Comment by: Jim Henderson
30Lisa - you need to quit dating yourself
Comment by: TXatheist
31Stephan,
You mean like tax breaks for the rich or putting all the New Orleans people in a wreck of a place like the Superdome? Same screw them attitude but India is much worse off than the US in personal financial incomes.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
32I really have to go work so don’t take my silence as disinterest in the conversation.
TX - you are correct to point out some similarities between christians and hinduism which i like to do from time to time myself but what I am more disturbed by are the roots of the movement- Brahminical Hinduism is a fatalistic manipulation of the masses - Jesus offered an open system( I am not talking about “Christianity” now - but Jesus) He invited people to become and live not to accept and die (multiple times)
Thats just one issue.
I think we need to take this into the discussion room - Lisa what do you think- can someone set that up for me
later
Comment by: Stephan
33The difference is see, TX, is that Hinduism says that God wants them to suffer, whereas most Christians want to help alleviate the suffering.
This could, of course, be an institutionalized misapplication of religion, similar to how Christians used the Bible to create the Crusades, Holy Roman Empire and the Inquisition, and how modern Islam is using the Koran to justify terrorism.
I think this is partly why Jim is so disgusted with “religion”.
Comment by: TXatheist
34Stephan,
Head on over to discussion but xianity most certainly makes us sinners and feel guilty and we aren’t worthy. Politicians greatly use it to get people to support their candidate and then I personally find that party makes people worse off, or at least the non-rich ones.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
35Ir or Stephan would you please start a new discussion in the COMMON GROUNDS CAFE - ‘Hinduism and Christianity’
I can’t get to the discussion area from this computer.
thanks
Comment by: Mike C
36I don’t think it’s all about guilt and low self-worth and all that. But I do think there’s truth that we are “sinners”. Or at least, there is truth to the claim that I myself am a sinner. I know that I am, because when I look at what’s in my heart I don’t always like everything I see.
Maybe it would be better though not to use the religious language for this. What if I said instead that when I look at the world around me it seems pretty obvious that something is wrong. There is too much suffering, too much injustice, too much evil to just ignore and say that we’re all just basically good people. There are women being sold into sexual slavery, and thousands of children dying every day from starvation. There are wars that kill thousands of innocents. There’s scores upon scores of domestic violence cases just here in our own country. There’s people exploiting each other and taking advantage of each other all the time. There are corrupt governments, corrupt corporations, and selfish people.
In short, this world’s a mess. Something is wrong, and something needs to be done about it.
I believe Jesus presents us with a way of life that does something about it. I believe he has overcome the powers of this world, and has begun a revolution that could change everything for the better, if people would follow it.
But (and here’s where the personal sin stuff comes in) when I look at all the crap going on out there in the world I don’t want to be so arrogant as to think the problems all lie “out there”. I don’t want to be so naive as to think that “well there’s some bad people, and they do all that evil stuff, but me, I’m basically a good person”, because you know what, I think the same darkness that causes CEO’s to exploit laborers and alcoholics to beat their wives and comfortable politicians to drop smart bombs on children’s hospitals, also lives in me. I am part of the problem. My selfishness, my disregard for the needs of others, my impatience, my prejudices, my consumeristic behaviors. I’m not entirely a bad person, but I’m not entirely blameless either. I am complicit in this corrupt system that we call modern society.
I first really came to this realization when I visited Auschwitz, and heard the stories of the atrocities there, and saw the ruins of the gas chambers, and saw pictures of the SS guards that ran the camp… and realized that they looked very much like me. They were young and they believed in their cause and they thought what they were doing was the right and good thing to do. And I had to ask myself, am I so different from them? From these people we call monsters? Might I not do the same things given the “right” set of circumstances? If I condemn the Nazi’s for their actions (and of course I do) then shouldn’t I also condemn myself for the same sort of impulses that exist in my own heart.
And on an even more basic level, I do hurt people. I do things at least every week, if not every day, that are unloving and unkind. I’m not saying that I have a low self-worth and think I’m just an awful person through and through. I’m just being honest with myself. I’m not always a very nice person.
So that’s why I don’t think Christianity is too far off when it tells people that they are “sinners”. And that’s why Christianity, to me, is such a welcome message, because it says “You don’t have to stay as you are. There is hope for transformation. You are forgiven from your past and you can be different in your future. You can become the person you really want to become.”
Because frankly, I’m not interested in a philosophy of life that just tells me I’m okay as I am and that I don’t need to change. I don’t want to stay as I am. I want to become more of the person I hope to be, and less of the person that I too often am now.
And maybe if more people began to be transformed into the kinds of people they were truly meant to be, maybe this world would actually start to become a better place.
But anyhow, sorry for preaching… it’s a bad habit us pastors sometimes slip into. ;)
Comment by: Tom E
37Be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water. Jesus was a Pharisee, was he not? Yet he decried the hypocricy of Pharisees. Isn’t using the word ‘Brahminical’ in this context tantamount to using the word ‘fundamentalist’ in front of ‘Christianity?’ Gandhi did not disavow the label ‘Hindu’ and yet he clearly had an appreciation for what was best in other traditions. He lived and worked intimately with people from oft-considered “opposing” faiths. In the end, he was killed by a zealous Hindu who couldn’t tolerate that idea.
Comment by: Ir
38Bingo! ;)
When has religious language ever facilitated communication with ‘unchurched’ people?
Comment by: Mike C
39Michael,
You seem to have some pretty strong opinions about what Christians believe. Unfortunately I haven’t found most of your characterizations to be very accurate of most Christians I know, even the worst ones. I want to invite you to set aside your assumptions for the moment and join into the dialogue that we have established here at this site. Through listening to each other atheists and Christians here have both learned that many of their previous assumptions were not based on fact. It’s fine that you disagree with us Christians, but please, don’t tell us what we think, listen to what we have to say.
Peace,
-Mike
Comment by: TXatheist
40Mike,
Ok, please interpret this then…please. 78% of my fellow Texans voted against gay marriage. If you are ok with gay marriage please state that but speculate on why most xians are homophobic.
Comment by: TXatheist
41bold type stopped
Comment by: Ir
42TX, can you demonstrate that ‘voted against gay marriage’ equivalent to ‘homophobic’?
Comment by: TXatheist
43I don’t want homosexuals to have the same privilege of marriage as me and my wife.
Comment by: Eliza
44Just trying to undo the bold/italic/blocking…
Comment by: Eliza
45One more try…
Comment by: Julie
46I am not against gay marriage. I believe I stated that in the comments of an earlier post in response to a question from Ir.
Why are most Christians homophobic? I don’t know that most are. I’m in no place to judge their hearts. I do know that many Christians feel that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, but I’m not sure that is the same as being afraid of homosexuals or hating them. By analogy, you believe that some things Christians do are morally wrong, do you not? And yet would it be fair to call you “Christo-phobic”? (I just made up that word. :) ) Do you fear or hate Christians just because you disagree with some of their behavior?
But I will grant you that some Christians are in fact homophobic, sadly, probably more than a few. Why? I don’t know for sure. I think it has to do with the way both sides, conservative Christians and liberal secularists (not to imply that all Christians are conservative or that all liberals are secular or vice versa), view our society as being in the midst of a culture war. Thus homosexuality becomes not just a deeply personal moral issue, it becomes a battleground for cultural dominance. So some conservative Christians probably fear homosexuals because they see them as a threat to their cultural values and their attempts to reassert the dominance over Western culture that they have lost in the last century or so.
Personally I find the whole idea of “culture wars” reprehensible and unChristian, and I wish both sides would stop speaking and thinking in those terms. Jesus didn’t come to seize power and Lord it over his enemies. He gave up his power, pursued the path of weakness and sacrifice, and loved those who opposed him. Christians who want to control society and people’s individual actions through political power don’t really understand the way of Christ, IMHO.
-Mike
BTW, how did we get on this topic?
Comment by: TXatheist
47Mike,
We were talking about sin and the bible is clear on homosexual activity being a sin. You not being against is comforting. However, not seeing that 78% of Texans voting against gay marriage is homophobic but morally wrong is just choice wording. They don’t hate the sinner just the sin right? Same thing but politically correct church verbiage. Do I think christians don’t have the same rights and privileges as any other law-abiding American? Yes, they do but I am voting on legislation to ban the bible or church weddings and the like. Not a fair comparison in the slightest. I mean I think it’s morally wrong to say there is truly a god but you have freedom of speech and religion and I am the last guy in the world who doesn’t appreciate that, especially in Texas where we have Jesus Day coming up. Yes, W voted June 10 as Jesus Day down here. On a lighter note, I agree Jesus didn’t come…ever:) We’ll have to disagree that abuse of power is unchristian. It is certainly not atheist or secular to devalue two level headed Americans who want to get married. I do understand your point on culture war and losing ground. I completely think the religious right uses fear as their greatest tactic. I will have to use my opinion on the 78%. They are spoon fed ignorance every Sunday morning imo. The homophobic hate is clearly laid out in Romans 1. You can call it a moral issue but I think it’s the same mentality of ignorance as the religious right to say it’s a moral issue.
Comment by: TXatheist
48sorry, am “not” voting on banning the bible or church weddings.
Comment by: Mike C
49TX, I hope you’ve noticed by now that I dislike the politics of the Religious Right as much as you do.
I hope you’ve also picked up by now that I think there is a difference between what a lot of Christians believe or do (or even a majority of Christians in a place like Texas), and what I think is truly “Christian” (i.e. reflecting the character and teachings of Christ).
For example, just because a lot of Christians do in fact abuse power does not mean that this is in fact a Christian trait. I would say it’s a human trait that people of all religions and worldviews fall into. IMHO, the fact that some Christians abuse power simply means that they are bad Christians, they are not living up to Christ’s ideals. They are not representative of what our faith is really about.
But dude, it sounds like you really need to move out of the red states. If it’s pissing you off so bad to live down there, why not head to the coasts where people like you will be more in the majority? :)
Peace
P.S. I didn’t say whether it was right or wrong to consider homosexuality a moral issue. You just asked me to speculate on why some Christians are so homophobic. You’ll have to take up the “morality” issue with them.
Comment by: candy cane
50If an ordinary company like AT&T were found to have practicing Pedophile CEO’S on the board the doors would be closed immediately and the company shut down. Yet Christian Catholic priests don’t phase the existance of a bogus supernatural practitioner. Why is that?
Comment by: candy cane
51Even the police have someone watching the police but the christian entities have no one enforcing their rules in fact they put up millions of dollars to defend themselves . Millions of dollars I’m sure weren’t meant to defend felons and build them seashore homes with boats and planes .Am I ( christophobic ) You bet I am. Christianity is a scam like any other religious scam that uses people with supernatural promises of golden streets and pearly gates and messages sent by Gods and Ghosts and spirits
Comment by: candy cane
52You join as a group and try to overthrow the u.s.government with the chant of christian values made this country and so on and so forth but when people point out your flaws it’s ” Duh, it’s not like any of the christians I know”. Within your ranks coalitions for housing and segregation are formed , quietly I might add ,to exclude certain people . People are deliberately ” PRICED OUT ” of certain areas and talk is ” HUSHED ” Don’t act as though you don’t know what religion is really about. Now erase me like a good little boy . You can’t obliterate the truth no matter how many ghosts, gods or spirits you use
Comment by: TXatheist
53Mike,
Most of my family resides in Illinois. I’ve seen the breakdown of voting results by county. Illinois is blue because of Chicago, the rest is predominantly red. I almost moved to Birmingham because the nonsense is even worse there, racism and religion. Austin is liberal and I live just outside of it but I ain’t here to cowar, just confront, politely or not politely depending on how I’m received.:)
Comment by: Mike C
54Welcome back michael… er, I mean candy cane. ;)