Posted by Lisa on: 04.14.2006 /
A recent gleaning of the First Timers forum yielded this:
“My first time here to this site and I have found it quite interesting. Believing in things we can see is most times effortless. I just need to ponder a few minor details in this life to make me pay attention to God. Our earth is positioned at the perfect distance from the sun. The air I breathe has just the correct amount of Oxygen in it to keep me alive. My internal organs and my body’s ability to heal its self is nothing short of amazing. The fact that we ourselves have the ability to create life is mind boggling if we really think about it. The truth to me is that we are all miracles; this world I live in is a miracle.”
Why do people see the exact same evidence and come to radically different conclusions?
Given this – why should any of us be arrogant about our perceptions or mean to those who “don’t see them”
Leave a Reply
Comment by: NCxian
1 04/14/06 6:19 AM | Comment Link |I know this is the short, overly-simplified answer, but I’ll put it on the table. Because no two people are in the same place, biologically and environmentally, and thus, no two people are the same, intellectually and spiritually.
“Easy answer”, nobody should be mean or arrogant about anything, and especially about something as intangible as belief. “Hard to swallow”–I am often not particularly gracious when confronted with pig-headed fundamentalism (not here, but elsewhere), so I am no better than anybody else in this regard.
Comment by: Ir
2 04/14/06 6:36 AM | Comment Link |I like the language of calling things ‘miracles’ - because they are amazing if I stop to think about them. I just don’t like the next bit - the bit where I’m supposed to say thank you for this miracle to a person who might not exist and even if he does I’m not sure I like him very much.
Comment by: Julie Marie
3 04/14/06 7:27 AM | Comment Link |As I studied the interactions between the various systems that make our human bodies work, I wondered…how could anyone not believe? Yet my favorite classmate (and still friend, a decade later and many miles moved) was in those same classes, and remains agnostic. I never did try to convince her of anything. (that wasn’t too hard back then, because I was still a Catholic, and they don’t evangalize with the zeal I’ve found in other places)
It comes down to respect. There have been careful distinctions made on the discussion boards between respect for a person and respect for their beliefs, and I understand that point, because it is essentially the same point fundies make when they say hate the sin love the sinner.
Those words may sound good, but they are mighty hard to live out without slipping into personal arrogance regarding your own position.
I have found when I allow myself to do something like “hate the sin” (as in, for instance, alcoholism) I have a hard time loving the sinner (the abusive alcoholic).
When I work a little harder, to understand the causes of alcoholism and the history of the particular alcoholic, I am able to find compassion. (Not to say boundaries aren’t necessary when dealing with abuse; I have compassion for the alcoholics in my life, but still, unless they are willing to deal with their problem, my boundaries are firm. I’m just using alcoholism as my, hopefully, non infammatory example.)
Comment by: Ir
4 04/14/06 8:29 AM | Comment Link |Julie - very well said. I agree. I find that getting to the point of compassion is the only way to guard my heart against arrogant superiority.
Comment by: Ir
5 04/14/06 8:30 AM | Comment Link |(and in some cases, bitterness)
Comment by: Siamang
6 04/14/06 9:24 AM | Comment Link |The original poster wrote:
That assumes that you came first, and then the planet was made to fit you exactly. ‘Twas the other way ’round.
The writer Douglas Adams had a great quote that sums up this thinking from my perspective.
He imagines a talking puddle. Being a comedy and science writer, he had quite a knack for illustrating a brilliant point with an absurd situation like this.
But he imagines this puddle looking around and seeing the hole he’s in. And this puddle looks at the hole and sees that it fits his body exactly. Every curve and contour of the hole is exactly fitting his body. The depth is exactly perfect or he’d spill out of it. It’s not too dirty, or he’d be mud. One small change one direction or the other, one minor difference, and the puddle’s absolutely convinced, his existence would be impossible.
It’s so crystal clear to this puddle, that the hole was made by an intelligent designer.
Comment by: Jeff
7 04/14/06 9:35 AM | Comment Link |This is an interesting line of thought. Personally, I get really weary of being told by (1/2 cooked atheists) as opposed to (all out trying to be atheists) that because I am a Christian who believes in the truth of the Bible, I use circular reasoning.
Then, I ask them how they come to a conclusion and they say stuff like “It’s obvious that this is the only answer if you don’t believe in the Bible.”
Reality seems to be that WE ALL are circular in our reasoning. We believe what we believe because of our beliefs. I mean… why does anyone call water “water?” because we have been taught and believe that water IS water. How do we know water isn’t really sand and sand isn’t really air?
My point is, we all come from a frame of reference that was SHAPED by information that we have either trusted or rejected. WE ALL interpret data… beliefs… life through our particular frames.
So to actually answer the question. We have no right to be “arrogant.” There are some frames of reference, however which MUST be right or true, and some that are false. Otherwise, air, sand and water are all the same.
Comment by: Mike C
8 04/14/06 9:42 AM | Comment Link |We shouldn’t be arrogant. There are good reasons - “evidence” if you will - for both atheism and theism. But neither have conclusive evidence. Neither has an airtight case (mainly because there is not such thing when it comes to human knowledge, of any sort). Thus either position requires a leap of faith. Why do people see the same evidence and come to different conclusions? Because they choose to. They select the interpretation that makes the most sense to them personally (based on, as NCXian pointed out, their psychology, biology, past experiences, personality, etc…).
So why be arrogant? Why assume that the other side is just stupid or evil? I am a Christian, but to me the atheist point of view makes a lot of sense too. I just choose not to accept that interpretation of reality; I guess because the Christian worldview just resonates with me more deeply.
Comment by: Mike C
9 04/14/06 9:44 AM | Comment Link |Looks like Jeff and me were posting at the same time, but I wholeheartedly affirm what he was saying as well. That’s part of what I was getting at too.
Comment by: Siamang
10 04/14/06 9:50 AM | Comment Link |Jeff wrote
Exactly, Jeff. Tell them to drink some sand and breathe some water for awhile, and then tell me they’re the same.
It doesn’t matter what you call them. It doesn’t matter what you believe or what your presuppositions are.
There is a reality and a truth outside your own senses. Things are objectively true or false, regardless of what words or perceptions you ascribe to them.
This doesn’t speak to whether or not you use circular reasoning to believe the bible, or whether they’re using it also by denying the truth of the bible.
But I think you’re on the right track there with arguing for an objective reality. A nascent atheist if I ever saw one. ;-)
Comment by: Jeff
11 04/14/06 10:01 AM | Comment Link |The thing is… (which thing I don’t know)
We spend so much time telling each other that we are the only objective ones. The crush comes when my objectivity offends or disagrees with yours.
So how do we get past this? How can I have an open and honest discussion with someone about a critical concern such as “breathing water” (which does have oxygen in it!) and yet present a truth which will keep them alive?
I’ll be back, but I need to go eat some sand… I mean lunch… (pressing appt.) 1 hr Time OUT NOW!
Comment by: Ir
12 04/14/06 11:24 AM | Comment Link |Isn’t the whole endeavor to persuade someone they’re dying and you’re not, so they need what you have, a waste of time because either a) they feel just fine so they have no incentive to buy what you’re selling or b) if they’ve noticed you have something they need they’ll come find you and ask about it - why do you need a way to ‘present the truth’ to them?
Metaphorically speaking, Christians spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to sell their product to people who aren’t interested in buying it.
Why? It’s not as if God will deposit $1000 in their bank account for each conversion.
Or will he, metaphorically speaking?
Comment by: Mike C
13 04/14/06 11:44 AM | Comment Link |I know most people here are probably too cynical to believe this, but in a lot of cases the motivation actually is love.
Comment by: NCxian
14 04/14/06 11:56 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for the reminder, Mike.
Comment by: Julie Marie
15 04/14/06 11:56 AM | Comment Link |I would not risk ridicule and rejection for money or some sort of celestial credit. I have done it because I care about who I am talking to and want to be able to enjoy their company forever.
There is a real agony that accompanies a faith that excludes for non belief. I think about my sister and just want to sit down and cry.
I am hopeful that as I re-evaluate some of what I have been taught, there won’t be any need for that agony. I liked the New Kind of Christian video. I’m doing alot of reading and alot of thinking and alot of praying. If I come to the conclusion I’ve been told to sell the wrong product for the wrong reasons, I will be exceedingly happy.
And Mike C is right, its not for money, its for love.
Comment by: Stephan
16 04/14/06 12:00 PM | Comment Link |Do you mean I’m NOT going to get my $1000 a head!?!
When I share what I believe with someone it is not to convert them or convince them. It is simply because it is something I believe is true and important. I also tell people to wear a helmet when bicyling. To not tell them would be to not care about them.
Comment by: Ir
17 04/14/06 12:24 PM | Comment Link |Wow Mike - you seem more defensive than usual. Is it because you’re nervous about tomorrow?
Anyway, it’s an interesting definition of love: I love you, that’s why I’m annoying you, trying to sell you something you don’t want and don’t see a need for.
Comment by: Ir
18 04/14/06 12:25 PM | Comment Link |Mike wrote:
Wow Mike - you seem more defensive than usual. Is it because you’re nervous about tomorrow?
Anyway, it’s an interesting definition of love: I love you, that’s why I’m annoying you, trying to sell you something you don’t want and don’t see a need for.
Comment by: Eliza
19 04/14/06 12:29 PM | Comment Link |Our kids would probably say we all do this alot…
Comment by: Eliza
20 04/14/06 12:29 PM | Comment Link |(to them, that is!)
Comment by: Ir
21 04/14/06 12:36 PM | Comment Link |Stephan, are you sure about that? I actually don’t think you’d share what you believed unless you were hoping the other person might begin to believe you. If you knew without a shadow of a doubt they would ignore what you’re saying you wouldn’t say it, would you? Because it would be a waste of your time. It would be like stating your beliefs to the refrigerator. Why do it?
Comment by: Stephan
22 04/14/06 1:04 PM | Comment Link |I guess I mean that conversion is not my primary aim. Sure I would like people to agree with me, but it’s not a “get your butt into heaven” kind of thing. It’s, “I believe this is true and I believe it’s important.” If I really think it will make someone’s life better then it would be selfish not to tell them. I’m not pushy and if I get a clear “no” then I leave it alone. My sharing is generally in the context of things that naturally come up in conversation, not forcing an issue.
Comment by: Ir
23 04/14/06 1:10 PM | Comment Link |I thought that’s probably what you meant, Stephan. I just wanted to clarify.
But…maybe that’s the same reason SBC calls me everytime they have a new phone package - and it doesn’t make it any less annoying.
I understand your reasoning and yet, applying it to myself I’m wondering if I shouldn’t perhaps just leave people alone.
Comment by: Stephan
24 04/14/06 1:28 PM | Comment Link |Ir, unlike SBC, I stop if someone says no.
Comment by: Jeff
25 04/14/06 2:09 PM | Comment Link |Ok, I’m finally back after a long ‘honey-do’ list following lunch… It seems like having a window in the place where the whole in the wall was is important to wives for some reason… Go figure.
Before I get serious, Stephan…. if we had worn helmets when we bicycled as kids, we’d have needed body armor, too.
Over the past few hours it seems like some of you have posted either are or have been involved in churches. I’m not really into the sellig Jesus, or anything else for that matter. Though $1000 a head seems a little low for God to offer if He gave His Son originally…
Lisa originally asked,
The last few comments seem more on the merits or not of methods to sell… What about the rel issue of why we think we need to change another person’s beliefs, convictions, world-view? I feel like sometimes we all like to jump on a soapbox and yell “you’re wrong!” Is there a place for that?
Comment by: Mike C
26 04/14/06 2:37 PM | Comment Link |No… maybe it’s just ‘cuz I’ve been interacting with TX too much on this board. ;)
Actually I wasn’t being defensive, just honest. Often I’m too cynical myself to give my fellow Christians the benefit of the doubt.
But when it comes to the motivation for evangelism my experiences as a pastor shows me that most people are driven by a love for others. Most people who have come to me for advice on “how” to share their faith really have a genuine concern for their friends or family members. As a youth pastor I would sometimes have students come and ask me for advice on how to share their faith with their atheist parents - not because they were “selling” something, but because they didn’t want to see their parents go to hell, and wanted them to experience the same joy in Christ that they had found. In other words, because they loved their parents.
I have seen (and participated in) the ugly side of evangelism as well, but I was trying not to let my cynical side come out before acknowledging that sometimes people actually do have genuinely good motives for evangelism.
Comment by: Lisa
27 04/14/06 2:57 PM | Comment Link |Ok,I had to go back and figure out that SBC doesn’t refer to Seattles Best Coffee…
Comment by: Ir
28 04/14/06 3:00 PM | Comment Link |Fair enough, Mike. I apologize if I misread you as being defensive when you weren’t being.
I understand that believers are genuinely concerned about preventing loved ones from going to hell. I think I had that genuine concern myself when I was a believer.
Comment by: Ir
29 04/14/06 3:01 PM | Comment Link |Lisa, they did just open some Seattles Best Coffee Shops in the Borders in my area - I got an e-mail about that. But they aren’t in the Borders ttores we go to.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
30 04/14/06 3:41 PM | Comment Link |Ir,
I’m a coffee snob and actually prefer it over Starbucks. Enjoy a bit of coffee via Vashon Island in the Puget Sound. Because you love the mountains, you really should make a trip. We are surrounded by two mountain ranges here. Heaven.
Comment by: Marty
31 04/14/06 3:50 PM | Comment Link |No one has commented on the picture that Lisa posted. Is it because everyone is used to this picture and no comment was necessary - or is it because people are not aware that there are two - very different images in that picture - depending upon how you look at it.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
32 04/14/06 4:08 PM | Comment Link |Isnt’ that Lisa person just brilliant at choosing cool imagery? wow.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
33 04/14/06 4:10 PM | Comment Link |Yes, she is fantastic! It must be that 4 years of art school and a minor in Psych that she could pull that off!
Comment by: Siamang
34 04/14/06 4:18 PM | Comment Link |Snort.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
35 04/14/06 4:20 PM | Comment Link |I just crack myself up.
Thanks Siamang, for paying attention.
Comment by: Julie Marie
36 04/14/06 6:18 PM | Comment Link |I thought it was one of those type of pix, but I can only see one image, try as I might. guess that says alot about me ;)
Comment by: Julie Marie
37 04/14/06 7:24 PM | Comment Link |Oh! I saw the crone. I had to squint at my computer screen sideways. I can be such a goober.
Comment by: ricklintx
38 04/15/06 6:22 AM | Comment Link |Lisa,
ricklintx used to be ricklinseattle. Moved away 7.5 years ago. And you know what you’re talking about wrt SBC/Starbucks.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
39 04/15/06 7:06 AM | Comment Link |Siamang writes
Spoken like a true theist/Xian. :-)
No, seriously, I think that is what motivates most thinking Xians. (not a contradiction in terms… sometimes…) Somebody mentioned at one point (actually a few did) that they felt more at peace as an atheist and happier than as a Xian. I totally understand that, and I don’t doubt it’s true. What’s easier and more prone to creating peace in one’s life? The belief that there is only one route to eternal life and those who don’t follow it will be in a state of separation from God and from joy for eternity? or the belief that it doesn’t matter and there is no God?
For me, atheism would be very comforting. I almost wish I could believe that way. But I can’t. And I have to admit that those of you who left Xian faith, I marvel that you could do that, and still don’t totally understand it. I suspect that we had vastly different experiences, specifically with regard to God as a real person. I won’t lie that that grieves me. And that it disturbs me. (Thanks, I’m already pretty disturbed, according to my friends…)
Comment by: Ir
40 04/15/06 7:47 AM | Comment Link |I expect I am one of them. If not, I do think that’s true of me.
Wow - talk about ironic; I have read so many comments to that effect by atheists!
Are you sure it would be so comforting? No eternal life? No God looking after you? No purpose in your suffering? No happy ending for the people who unjustly suffer (at the hands of other people with more power, perhaps) throughout their whole lives on earth?
Thank you for saying that, because it’s very invalidating how little it seems to bother a lot of Christians. Somehow they have some ‘answer’ in their theological framework which explains our ‘failure’ to continue believing - the blame, obviously, being ours, not God’s (nothing is ever God’s fault, of course)
As for having different experiences of God as a real person - no, I expect I’ve had pretty similar ones to you, assuming yours are pretty similar to the Christians I’ve spent lots of time with.
Ok, here’s a word-picture. A long time ago someone approached me with a 5,000 piece puzzle that they said was really cool. I was open to that. They helped me put it together. It was a neat picture and I kept it together and kept it out on a table and liked to look at it.
There were one or two places where it didn’t quite look like the bits fitted perfectly but on the whole I didn’t worry about that.
Well, one day I decided I wanted to go through putting this puzzle together again by myself. I don’t know why. Maybe I accidentally fell against the table and the puzzle fell on the floor and fell apart. Maybe I was just curious. Maybe those pieces that didn’t quite fit were bothering me. Maybe all of those reasons.
When I started to put it back together I was really careful to make sure each piece fit really well. And what I found was - well, let’s say that the part I got back together clearly was making a different picture than the one it made before. And all the pieces I had together fit very well - I was confident that they did go together that way. Even though the puzzle isn’t finished.
I don’t know how to get Christians to try taking it apart and seeing if it goes back together a different way, though. I don’t think they believe me that that’s even a possibility.
Maybe someone has knock your puzzle off the table so that you have to try putting it back together by yourself, before you could understand. I don’t wish that on you, though. All I wish is that more Christians would have a way of dealing with where I’m at which isn’t invalidating.
Comment by: Marty
41 04/15/06 8:42 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie - here is a clue - if you are seeing a girl - you can see where her chin is and her ear is. That ear is the eye of an old lady and that chin is the nose of an old lady. If you are seeing a old lady - you can reverse these things. Hope Lisa forgives me for telling her secret :-)
Comment by: Lisa
42 04/15/06 9:40 AM | Comment Link |ir,
I think that basically people don’t really care much for change. Once they are accustomed to a way of viewing their beliefs and living their life accordingly any disturbance is a threat. So, it would be hard for many Christians, unfortunately, to be able to validate your experience when that kind of disruption is just what they are avoiding.
This is similar to what Siamang/jim noted on another post which I will go steal right now.
Comment by: Lisa
43 04/15/06 9:42 AM | Comment Link |here it is:
Siamang says:
I honestly couldn’t do it after awhile. I couldn’t tell my true spiritual beliefs from my false ones
Siamang
First - thanks for being our first offical guest blogger
Second - The comment you made is profound. I think the reason many Cs don’t want to hear ideas that challenge their “beliefs” is because they are afraid of having your experience. which I think is more honest than “fake” beliefs.
I think there are ways thru that place as well
Comment by Jim Henderson
Comment by: Eliza
44 04/15/06 12:12 PM | Comment Link |Ir, you are really something. Thank you.
Comment by: Julie Marie
45 04/15/06 12:46 PM | Comment Link |Well, this blog is one good way. It was hard for me not to walk away when my puzzle got thrown against the wall. I love your analogy because thats about how I feel; like I’m sitting in the kitchen in the middle of a pile of puzzle pieces. I guess the thing that brought me back was the REALNESS of what people are writing here.
I’m sad you are having to cope with this.
Comment by: Eliza
46 04/15/06 1:26 PM | Comment Link |And Lisa, what excellent use of your fine education & great judgment!! ;) That, and good taste in coffee too!! :)
Comment by: Ir
47 04/15/06 2:53 PM | Comment Link |You’re welcome, Eliza. I always appreciate your comments - I’m happy to see you back here again!
Hey, I meant to say - I love Lisa’s title for this blog entry - very clever, Lisa!
Comment by: Lisa
48 04/15/06 7:35 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Eliza and Ir,
and may I just say the women on this blog are the smartest, coolest women in all blogdom.
Comment by: Mike C
49 04/15/06 9:12 PM | Comment Link |Ir, that is a fantastic parable! Do you mind if I borrow it sometime? I find it’s an equally accurate desciption of my journey from conservative evangelicalism to being a “new kind of Christian”. I’ve gone through a similar process of putting the puzzle back together a different way. Not the same way as you of course, but very different than the original picture nonetheless.
-Mike
Comment by: Lisa
50 04/15/06 10:03 PM | Comment Link |Mike, I agree with you on the beauty of Ir’s imagery. It is a very useful and accessible story.
I love the puzzle kits you can get at the craft store. They’re blank, make it your own.
Comment by: Siamang
51 04/15/06 11:50 PM | Comment Link |I’m humbled by you folks. Really wonderful thoughtful stuff.
Thanks for sharing so much of yourselves.
Comment by: Ir
52 04/16/06 5:36 AM | Comment Link |Mike, feel free to use it however you want. How did the big day go yesterday?
Lisa, thanks. A blank puzzle that you can draw your own picture on? Hmmm…sounds a bit dangerous to me - what if I draw the ‘wrong’ picture? ;)(Will I go to hell for that?)
Comment by: Julie Marie
53 04/17/06 5:39 AM | Comment Link |The results of a wrong picture…hell on earth.