Posted by Peter from Pennsylvania on: 04.18.2006 /
Most, if not all, of our presidents of late have been men who have openly embraced Christianity, and prayer specifically. There’s an interesting op-ed piece in the Washington Post this past Sunday (Easter). Here’s an excerpt. The speaker is the former president George H.W. Bush, and he’s speaking at a prayer breakfast:
["Many of you here have heard me quote Abraham Lincoln, who once said that 'I have often gone to my knees in prayer out of the conviction that I had no place else to go,' but sometimes even that is not enough. No matter how deep one's faith is, sometimes you need the guidance and comfort of a living, breathing human being. For me, and for so many occupants of the Oval Office, that person was Billy Graham. When my soul was troubled, it was Billy I reached out to, for advice, for comfort, for prayer." Bush's voice cracked with emotion; perhaps, given Graham's fading health, it was one of the last times they would be together.]
You can read the whole thing at this address.
What do you think? Good? Bad? Indifferent? (I’ll save my own opinion for a little later.)
Comment by: Ir
1A quick comment before I go read the address: Peter, do you realize how scary it is to many people that what the Bible says about Israel and the end-times (and/or how it’s interpreted) probably influences his decision-making?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
2Ir,
It frightens me as well. I can’t abide all those “left behind” books and that kind of thinking. I can’t really understand how somebody can read Revelation (and Daniel for that matter) as some kind of “code book for the end times.”
Y’all can comment on that part of it if you wish, I think it’s pretty important to this discussion! Thanks, Ir!
Comment by: Lisa
3I think it’s great that presidents pray, but I wish they would remember the words of Jesus when they make decisions to wage war, to repress immigrants, to favor big business (Pharisees) over the poor, to discriminate against homosexuals (today’s version of the reviled tax collector to whom Jesus reached out).
In other words, I’d prefer they “live” their beliefs rather than just proclaiming them. It takes more than prayer to be a Christian; it takes action.
Comment by: Lisa
4#3 is NOT a comment by Lisa Wellington
Comment by: Julie Marie
5I really like this quote. Its sometimes tempting to over spiritualize and having a reality check with trusted friends is so helpful.
I think it is important, however, for powerful people, whose actions affect so many people, to have reality checking advisors who have different perspectives. To not just tolerate, but consider, dissenting opinions. Otherwise you can end up with no one to pinpoint flaws in a bad plan - ie the “group think” that led to the Bay of Pigs.
Its no fun to hear arguements against what you think is best, but imo, its a sign of maturity, and something I will look for in candidates going forward.
If I were President, sure, I’d pray for my country and her citizens. I want Gods grace on me and thee. I’d have my Christian advisors. But I’d also invite Siamang and Ir to join my staff. That combination would help assure I wouldn’t inadvertently come off with a half baked idea.
Comment by: Peter from Pennsylvania
6I too wonder about presidents who pray and then rush off to war…
Full disclosure though… I HAVE to agree with Lisa on that… She’s my sister… Lisa, meet everybody! Everybody… Meet Lisa!
So here’s a thought, too. How genuine (or non-genuine) do you think some of these politicians are in their faith? I mean, let’s face it, the way most of America is, you might HAVE to at least claim Christian faith to get elected president in this country.
Thoughts?
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
7Hey, Peter’s sister Lisa, Welcome aboard!
Now, put an initial after your name so we don’t confuse people!
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
8Hey, cool. Welcome, Lisa. That makes two sibling sets here. My brother ‘RickLinTX’ is also on here.
Comment by: LisaHG (Peter's sister)
9Sorry, folks, I didn’t realize till after I posted that there was already an active poster named Lisa on this site! I’m Pete’s big sister, one of two, raised in the same religious household, also went a different direction from Catholicism once I decided for myself that God was calling me. I DO have a few things against Catholicism, but that’s another story . . .
Continuing on the presidential faith vein: I believe that faith when used by career politicians is usually just a political tool to get elected. The current George Bush’s record is very transparent on that matter. Though I think it’s interesting that this so-called “faith” is almost always aimed toward the right-wing conservative Christian groups with the big money, as though left-wing liberals like me with a different interpretation of God’s message (and less money, partly because we spend so much time worrying about the underclass) are somehow considered less faithful. Back in Jesus’ day the Pharisees with the deep pockets were also consdered the faithful ones by society! This is a historical comment, by the way, not a religious one.
Comment by: Julie Marie
10its really hard to judge anothers sincerity. and with politicians, its even harder to judge works, because to get anything implemented you have to have a consensus. I believe both parties care about the poor; I think they have different opinions on how to best address the problems of the poor. Even when consensus is reached, for instance, in the no child left behind legislation, the results don’t live up to either sides intention. (at least in SC, its been a disaster)
I think you do have politicians who use religion cynically to grab votes, and you have it in both parties. To really gague this, you’d have to look at the voting record, query about the rationale (but who knows what spin you’d receive in reply) and look at the legislation they drafted.
Of course, like my pastor says if you want to see what is in a person’s heart, look how they behave when squeezed. Their true selves will bubble out.
Comment by: Cully
11This is also the same guy, who in an interview with Robert Sherman of the American Atheist Press said:
“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
I know that our president’s receive advice and guidance on all sorts of subjects from all sorts of people, but it makes me really uncomfortable to know that any sort of state decisions were made under guidance from Billy Graham, or any other religious leader. I guess this just has to go under the category of “Don’t ask how the sausage is made.”
Comment by: LisaHG (Peter's sister)
12I think we all have inner directives that help us to make our moral decisions. Some of us believe it’s God. But my husband, who doesn’t believe God exists, is extremely honest, has a strong sense of justice and is a wonderful role model for our children. He’s also a patriot who spent 14 years in the Army serving our country. God doesn’t exclude atheists in this nation — or anyone else, for that matter.
Comment by: Julie Marie
13I didn’t know he said that. I can see why atheists are angry, and see Christianity as a threat.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
14There you go everybody. Me and my sister are TAKING OVER this site!
;-) JK
I actually am a “benefit of the doubt” kinda guy when it comes to someone’s faith claims, and I’m what you might consider way more conservative than Lisa, and probably in many ways most of you, but even though I don’t find any fault with Billy Graham, I am a little bit uncomfortable with our leaders asking for advice from “clergy.” Unless it means making peace and helping the poor, something we don’t do enough of. (Thanks, Bono for reminding us…) This whole war business is making me crazy…
For instance, I’m pro-life, I admit it. (But let’s not go down that road here if we can help it…) So is our current president, who, paradoxically, has a very strong pro-capital punishment record. I can’t get this. WE have the means to put these people behind bars for life, and yet the same people who clamor for the life of an unborn child are saying about these other people, “Kill ‘em all”… You do have to wonder if somebody simply wants to get elected and picks the causes and positions that will accomplish that.
And thanks for the sausage analogy, Cully. While we’re at it. Let’s not even ask what’s IN the sausage…
Comment by: Cully
15Isn’t all of this just basically the Pharisees “public praying” that Jesus spoke against anyway?
Comment by: Eliza
16Is it so unusual to find people who are against abortion but in favor of the death penalty (maybe basing the latter on Exodus)? I had the impression that was a reasonably frequent pairing of beliefs but I don’t have anything to base that impression on.
Perhaps not surprisingly, the fight against terrorism seems to have brought out alot of biblical quotes and imagery, along the lines of good v. evil. For example, GW Bush saying in 11/2001 “You’re either with us or against us in the fight against terror” (echoes of Matthew 12:30, Whoever is not with me is against me). It really scares me that Bush and/or some of the people around him may see intervention in the middle east as a way to bring “us” to the End Times.
Comment by: Peter from Pennsylvania
17Eliza writes
I hope and pray that he doesn’t see it that way. I think it’s pretty scary, too…
Comment by: Ir
18Peter, he wouldn’t be much of a Christian, would he, if his beliefs had nothing to do with his decision-making and behavior?
I think it would mean he hadn’t been listening to all those sermons about living out one’s beliefs ;)
Comment by: Peter from Pennsylvania
19Right, Ir.
But if he picks and chooses the way most of us Xians do (and to an extent I think every living person does), then I guess I’m having a problem with how he picks and chooses (and keep in mind this is a pretty conservative guy talking, although I classify myself as independent, not GOP). How many death row inmantes were executed while he was governer of TX? What’s up with this war in Iraq? How come when two oil-men get into the white house we get 3.00/gallon gas?
Anyway, I didn’t want to bash our president, but I sure didn’t want to praise him either…
And, I think, Americans, on the whole, want our president to be a man of faith whose actions are colored by that faith. Or at least the ones who vote do.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
20Eliza, #16, I am one who, by personal preference, opposes abortion and endorses the death penalty. I might add, if I had the power, I would not outlaw abortion, but I do think it is wrong.
Here is my rationale. Suppose you and Jim and I each go to a store and we park near one another. And suppose, as I leave, I run into your car and crease the fender. I drive away. Later I see Jim and I apologize to him for damaging the car of one of his netizens. Is that going to be satisfactory to you? I suspect not. And quite rightly so. Because, though you weren’t personally injured, the car that was damaged belongs to you. So it is you to whom I owe not just an apology, but also the respect of your property rights and the restoration of them.
So, what does this have to do with anything? Well, for a Christian, who takes the Bible seriously, life belongs to God. So man has no right to take life by his own choosing. Therefore, abortion is wrong because it ends a life that belongs to someone else; God.
In the case of the death penalty, God has set forth consequences for those who take life. That is that their own life shall be taken from them. Therefore, executing a murderer is an act of obedience. From our human perspective we may dislike it. But our dislike doesn’t give us the right to contravene God’s command. And I am not aware of any place where He vacated that principle.
Comment by: Stephan
21Tom, I believe if you take two passages you can make a case that the death penalty is wrong.
Matthew 5:21-22 - “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
John 8:7 - “When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.’”
You may not agree, but I find it compelling. The only time Jesus was directly asked about the death penalty, he turned it upside down.
Comment by: Eliza
22Tom, as I said, I have the impression that your position on those 2 issues isn’t uncommon among US Christians. It’s not uncommon to find liberals who are pro-choice on abortion but against the death penalty, another dichotomous pair of positions. (I’m one of those folks.)
But I do agree with Stephan, I don’t see how biblical basis for the death penalty “stands” after Jesus appeared on the scene. Didn’t Jesus release his followers from the old Jewish laws? Don’t Christians tend to cite only a few portions of Exodus 21, like Ex 21:14 “But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die”, yet not the bulk of that chapter, the laws about slaves, especially not the now-horrifying biblical guidelines about selling your own daughter into slavery (Ex 21:7-11).
Stephan (#21) cited some potent passages; there are more general teachings that I’d argue make it hard to see how Jesus would have his followers enforce the death penalty.
For example, all from Luke 6:
27 - But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you…
29 - To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withold your tunic either.
31 - And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
32-33 - If you love those ho love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to thos who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
35-36 - But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
I don’t see any teaching by Jesus in favor of the death penalty, but I don’t know the Bible as well as many of you do…
Comment by: Donald Bursey
23Personally i do not care if presidents pray. I dont like relgion mixing with politics. I may be an unbeleiver but Politicians using God to imply your decisions are right has all ways has seemed wrong to me.