The mysterious woman in the video….

Comment by: Julie Marie

well talk about intersecting in someone’s life…I have expressed sadness about the lack of opportunity for discipleship in my church. (not personal growth, there’s plenty of opportunity for that; I’ve been in bible study small groups that were wonderful and I’ve led a Beth Moore study group that was profoundly beneficial…but I’m talking about how to translate all this learning into demonstrating the heart of Christ) Ir advises to find people with the same “cross” I have and form my own small group. So I’ve been pondering that, and I wonder, how do I do that in a church of several thousand???? I looked over the Simple Spirituality booklet, and I know I could lead this group. I want to lead this group.
I am excited about this.

Comment by: Ir

Julie wrote: I am excited about this.

Julie - neat, huh?

Were you like, hey, what is this feeling? I sort of remember it…I haven’t had it for a while…

Comment by: Julie Marie

Ir - yes it is neat!

Lisa W - I can’t wait. I already know 6 women I’d like to invite - and that’s without even thinking hard. And you know what? None of them go to my church. They live on my street; we are already raising our kids together, loving each other through hard times and good times, tolerating each others excesses and idiosycracies…we are christian and non christian, practicing and non observant…if I’m right, everything that has come before has prepared for this. Not wanting to sound melodramatic or anything…I’m just so happy to be excited about something again!

Comment by: Siamang

I have to say that reading all this makes me very happy for people.

I don’t share your beliefs, but I do share in your joy in discovery of the spiritual paths you have been searching for.

Comment by: Bob

When I first watched it (or at least watched it the first 4 times), I wondered if it was really her thoughts or a “skit” meant to provoke conversation.

Now that I learn who it is, I’m leaning towards “skit” even more.

Comment by: Bob

I guess I thought the opinions expressed were a little too “typical” of a person struggling with the concept of eternal damnation. Now, given her background, I would expect a much more substantive opinion.

Comment by: Tom in Sacramento

I’m in Ir’s camp. I hope I didn’t say anything to offend, but it doesn’t change my poinion of what she said. Truth, or falsehood, is independent of the speaker. It is dependent solely upon whether or not it is consistent with the true nature of the reality under discussion.

But I must admit that I find the all too brief snippet of her background fascinating. I would love to have a visit with her. My second most favorite “category” of people is those whose backg rounds are significantly differnt from mine.

Comment by: Jim Henderson

Bob

Believe me this was NO skit- Only a christian with too much church time would imagine a scenario like that.

OTM frequently gets accused of doing skits because Cs (and I guess atheists) are simply not used to people being this real.

In our inner circle this video is called Barb Unplugged - She was not looking to do an interview - our production guy grabbed her and asked her her real opinions - she fired away - a bit reluctantly to be sure (thus the disagreement about her body langugage (which we did a lot of laughing about)but this is what my wife has believed since before we were married 35 years and three children ago. She also happens to be one of the kindest and most generous followers of Jesus I have ever met and I have been in “the business” for close to 38 years.

Comment by: Bob

I stand corrected.

Comment by: Siamang

This discussion reminds me of an earlier point I wrote about. I think the majority of Christians feel they have a personal relationship with God more than a personal relationship with “scripture.”

Personally, I better understand people who describe their belief that way. In fact, I have an easier time making the leap that they may be on to something. :-)

Comment by: Esther

Yes, I found that “Simple Spirituality” is very good. I plan to lead a group with my “non-Jesus followers” friends with this material as well. My purpose is NOT to convert them but to support each other in a spiritual way.

Hey, Julie, I’m glad you found that helpful and insightful, too.

However, when I finished reading this booklet, I had this question in mind. Since the content and principles of this book was nothing docmatic or anything close to the “Fundamental” Christians’ value / “law”; I’ve wondered how actually Barbara has in mind of this whole “believe in God” concept?
It occurred to me that there must be some differences in her believe than what I’ve been familiar with.

Now, after watching her sharing on the video, it’s all clear. Therefore, let me thank both Jim and Barbara again.

Now, may I ask this question that I have in mind ever since I met you two last November?
Jim and Barbara,
Would you two mind sharing with us the story of how you two met and how you two got married 30 some years ago?
There must be some very interesting stories in it since Jim you’ve got a nun to marry you!

If you like, you may share it on the discussion board.

Anyone else interested in hearing?

It’s a friendly curiosity. :-)

Comment by: Julie Marie

I’d like that too.

Comment by: Esther

No, Tom, relax. The booklet is called,”Simple Spirituality”. It has no “Christianity” on it.
And I also agree that I’ll use it for a “spiriatual” support in my group.
Although in the booklet, there did have many Bible scriptures as a reference or supplementary reading purpose. I think that just represented the honest feeling of the author, Barb Henderson, that she found comfort and strength in those scriptures so she wanted to share them there.
Yes, I now see a “spiritually support group” different than how most Christian Churches see it.
How I view it is that I’ll rely on God Himself/Herself to lead every single individual on his/her journey of faith rather than rely on a set of belief system/doctrine/or even the “common” interpretation of the Bible.
I won’t “box in” a particular method, or a set of “actions” as the sure entitlement to salvation / or as the only and right way of living.
I think what we can do the most as human being is to walk honestly and lovingly alongside with our fellow-men /women, listen to each other, wishing the best of each other (which involve praying for them); and respecting each other. I won’t insist on them a set of “truth” and persuade them to accept it.
It is because I cannot know anything for sure and we are all searching.
I won’t be anxious about if anyone has missed the truth for if there’s a loving God here, God will lead us!

Comment by: Jim Henderson

I don’t know how it works out in practice — the SS group, I mean — but I don’t see any reason this exact same set of principles couldn’t be done by a Hindu or a Bhuddist, and Ir has demonstrated that it can largely be done by an atheist.

Our point exactly - the group is led by followers of Jesus (usually but not required) who want to host a conversation on “how to get god out of our heads and into our lives”

I hadn’t thought about how atheists might benefit but Ir would not be the first one to particpate in an SS group - it is a VERY disciplined process (which often eliminates many Cs and other religious types who have become accustomed to preaching at each other)that trains people in the art of “being interested in others”

Maybe it’s the mental health equivalent of an AA group.

That is a HIGH compliment - just replace the words mental health with spirituality and you’ve got the idea. AA is the most successful grassroots spiritual movement in the US and the church would be well served to imitate it and Habitat for Humanity when it goes looking for approaches that are more effective at training people to become better human beings

Comment by: Esther

It’s beautiful, Jim.
Thank you so much!
I’ve very seldomly seen a husband would describe his marriage so beautifully as you did!
Oh, I envy you two!

However, this is just your side of the story, Jim.

You said,

Jesus told her one day that she would be leaving the convent which she did a year later.

She asked me to marry her during that year and I said I would pray about it .

We got married Dec 4,1970 much to the dismay of her father and the happiness of my mother.

If I were a playwrite, by reading those 3 simple paragraphs could inspire me to write at least 3 episodes of drama series. :-)

But, we want to know the real story.

Barb, please, share it with us when you have time.
To me if I understood correctly, it is not something normal to leave the convent, isn’t it?
So, what happened? (If you don’t mind sharing.)
Did you have any struggle with the decision?
Did you encounter any opposition?

Again, in my understanding, to be a nun is to be single and never get married. What made you change this big determination of yours?
Umm…Could it be that Jim was SO attractive to you that made you decided to leave the convent and marry him?

I’m sorry if I’ve asked too much. I love to know people and I love human stories.

Don’t forget Marty also requested:

Jim and Barbara - additionally, I am very interested in reading about both of your individual Stories/Spiritual Paths.

Thanks again, Dear Jim & Barb.

Comment by: Ir

Jim thanks for sharing a bit about you and your wife.

Comment by: Bob

Jim,

I need to ask an honest question because your standpoint is foreign to me. What role does the Cross play in “good mental health” theology? I mean why did Jesus have to die on the Cross if all God wanted was us to love Him, ourselves, and each other?

Comment by: Ir

I’ve studied God’s wrath in the Bible (on my own, out of curiosity, rather than because I was in a Bible study about it).

Much of his anger seems to be a response to people mistreating other people - which makes sense to me.

In the Bible God describes to Moses as himself as slow to anger. I’m not always convinced that someone’s own view of themself is accurate - however, evidently God cannot lie and God knows everything so I guess it must be true.

And Jesus says he laid down his life - in other words he chose to do it. Hence, it wasn’t as if Jesus was a ‘victim’ of God in any sense.

But then, there are passages like Romans 5:9 which do seem to support the “God was mad at everyone until Jesus died” doctrine - and then according to John 3:36 God is still mad at a bunch of people:

Romans 5:9-10 Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath

(By the way, I think it’s interesting in the John’s gospel verse how John didn’t write “believes….does not believe” but “believes…does not obey” - what’s that about?)

Comment by: Ir

I wonder what Jesus is going to say to people [when they meet him face to face] who had trouble with what the Bible said because they believed Jesus to be better than the Bible seemed to indicate?

Can rejecting some of what the Bible says for that reason be heresy?

Comment by: Bob

proof of God’s love (laying down His life) finds its resolution at the Cross

Better correct this befoe Ir jumps on me ;-)

“laying down His Son’s life”

Comment by: Bob

But Stephan, if there isn’t a god or a hell, there isn’t a choice is there.

(In Memorium of TXatheist)

Comment by: Ir

Bob, TXatheist posted today.

Comment by: Bob

As a symbol it’s incredibly powerful.

Then as a reality how much more so…

Where symbol meets reality
religion meets faith
belief meets life
God meets man.

Comment by: Jim Henderson

It includes and then goes so much further than “good mental health” or “an angry God” or “identifying with our suffering”.

It can mean whatever you want it to mean if that gives you some sense of satisfaction but I am more taken with Jesus life than with his death.

Fine to tie them together but even without the cross (say he died quietly in his sleep) his life would be a compelling enough reason for me to follow him ( you have to factor in that I believe Jesus really really is God and there is not other God who competes with him ) (with apologies to my Non C and Atheist colleagues)

Comment by: Ir

(the italics seem to be fixed on my screen)

you have to factor in that I believe Jesus really really is God and there is not other God who competes with him ) (with apologies to my Non C and Atheist colleagues)

For what it’s worth, I don’t think there’s a need for anyone to apologize to anyone else for what they believe (except in a situation where one person believes unfair things about another person and has been called on it)

Jesus dying quietly in his sleep - I don’t think that could have happened. He was way too annoying to the status quo!

Comment by: Tom in Sacramento

Esther, #26, Just remmember, readless of what the booklet is called, the context in which Barb was introduced to us was as a new kind of Christian.

I have no reluctance at all to affirm the stuff in her booklet. As I noted, they are pricinples I’ve used myself. And I applaud the fact that the principles can be used by anyone regardless of faith stance. It’s good for their mental health.

But if we are going to encourage people to get God into their lives in practical ways, do we, as Christians, as people who presumably stand for something, more importantly Someone, do we want to encourage people to get more Ganesh in their lives? Or do we want to be clear?

I work in an incredibly secular environment. And spiritual issues rarely come up. But when they do, I don’t want people to be uncertain of where I’m coming from. It is simply “Truth in Advertising”.

Comment by: Ir

Ir, #31, I have to confess that one of the things that repeatedly frustrates me is the number of folks here how testify to this same problem, Ir. But, I gotta tell ya, in my experience, good, sound, mental health counselling isn’t mutually exclusive from sound Christian wisdom. I will readily admit that there are some schlocky counselors out there, Christian as well as non-Christian.

But for me, if all truth is God’s truth, then good counsel is good counsel, and a good Christian counselor has the benefit, if they are good, of seeing the “big picture context” in which God’s truth can fit.

It doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. You just have to be choosey and know how to evaluate your counselor. Sadly, the Church has not done a bang-up job of providing people those tools.

Tom, I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying - I wrote in another thread the other day (yesterday I think) that my counselor is a Christian and I’m fine with that because he is non-judgmental and he listens well and he has experience understanding my illness. I’m not going to decide I can’t go to him just because he’s a Christian even though at this point in my life I have no need for my counselor to be a Christian.

I think you are saying that the best sort of counselor is a good counselor who is also a Christian and at this point in my life, I would not agree. But as I said, I’m also not going to switch counselors just because mine is a Christian and I don’t need a Christian counselor any more.