Posted by Lisa on: 04.21.2006 /
‘Marty’ offered up this topic in the Common Grounds Virtual Cafe area of the Discussion Board:
Marty wrote:
It occurs to me that it might be useful in understanding each person’s posts and points of view if we understood why each of us has chosen to enter this discussion and what we want to accomplish. It may be helpful for each of us to step back and assess what we have been saying on this board (from an introspective point of view) and think about whether the approaches that we have taken are accomplishing our goals.
Here are snipits from some of the responses:
~I like to think that I sometimes get a little glimpse of how others view the world.
~I keep coming back because it is addictive…and I like the people here. This community is full of smart people from both sides.
~I want to see a society where religion is a non-issue, and no one will raise eyebrows no matter what you mention about your spiritual beliefs. Initially I had sensed I would have a lot of resistance to this idea from Christians, but hey, you guys proved me wrong.
~I’m not interested in starting a movement, but if one starts it would be cool to say that I was here when it started.
~I’m just here for the free all-you-can-eat buffet.
~I think the world could be a better place for everyone if the supernatural wasn’t as venerated as it currently is. Perhaps I might be able to articulate these things to some people, or failing that to myself at least.
~My motives have changed. I was initially curious because I wanted Hemant to be converted. Then I think I wanted to convince people I was right. Now I’m more interested in both sides being understood by each other.
How about you? Why are you here, what do you hope to accomplish, what have you learned so far?
Comment by: TXatheist
1To get Christians to realize I am content in my atheism and you are not going to sway me to accept that xianity is a legitimate belief with concern to the supernatural elements.
Comment by: Stephan
2Hey, TX is back! Welcome, we missed you.
Now, where was that buffet?
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
3Yeah, I’m hungry, too.
I’m hoping to understand better why people choose not to believe, and to get to know some very intelligent thinking people of that ilk. I’ve totally succeeded in that goal so far, I think.
Also, I’ve hoped to show that Xians can disagree with atheists and non-believers in a respectful fashion, because it’s easy to see why sometimes people think that’s impossible.
Comment by: Ir
4TXatheist! You came back! Hi :)
Because Off-The-Map is trying to bring about things I’d like to see happen - like Christians becoming more ‘normal’ and Christians and atheists coming to understand each other better.
Maybe I can help OTM work towards their goals, somehow.
I think OTM is helping me be honest about what I don’t believe any more.
Comment by: Ir
5Did someone say buffet?
Comment by: Lisa
6I’m here because it helps me get clearer about what I believe. I also like the opportunity to ask questions I might not otherwise be in a situation to ask.
And if TXatheist takes another plate from the buffet I’m calling security!
Welcome back, TX.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
7Why is that important to you?
When did someone try and sway you?
Comment by: Bob
8I’m here to expose myself to different ways of thinking and in the process become aware of how I think.
As far as what I’ve learned, I’ve learned that the Cross of Christ really is foolishness. I’ve read that before but now it has new meaning.
Comment by: Ir
9Could you elaborate, Bob? I assume you don’t mean that it’s foolishness to you, since you believe in it.
Comment by: TXatheist
10bob,
The Cross of christ is foolishness? What do you mean?
Comment by: David S
11I’ve learned to try to be more civil and that there are theists willing to dialog (for understanding if nothing else).
Comment by: Bob
12Foolishness It is all foolishness and weakness.
Comment by: TXatheist
13Bob,
A one word answer would be great:) The wisdom humanity has outside the bible is foolishness?
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
14Bob,
Do you think this dialog is futile or do you see it as hopeful?
Comment by: Bob
15Not exactly. To human wisdom, God is foolishness. That is not a statement of human wisdom itself which is exceptional (and “God given”, IMO).
{BTW, the word “foolishness” above was a link.}
Comment by: Esther
16I was on the “recovering fundametalist” journey alone for 8 to 9 years. Since I was still surrounded by FE Xians, I was not able to really “come out of the box”.
This feast of buffet is like the spinach for Popeye the sailor man for me! ( I’m not sure if all you young folks that are under 35 would have seen this cartoon? :-) )
I now not only have fully climbed out of the box, but I can run away from the box. Hey, now I know that there’s actually a big new world out there!
Oh, so there’s a tour after the buffet! (It seems that there are more tour guides than the only one tourist - me!)
BTW, I now cannot get onto the discussion board as a guest. Have they changed the policy?
Comment by: TXatheist
17bob,
You and I definitely use the English vocabulary completely different.:) Also, I don’t think God is foolishness. I would say myth but myth can, most definitely can be used constructively.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
18Esther - yes, the Discussion Board is now requiring registration. Spam onslaughts have made this imperative.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
19and Esther… you’ve got a little spinach in your teeth. (You wear it well. Good going on the box escape!)
Comment by: Ir
20Esther, you might have to register to post now. Is registering a problem for you?
Comment by: Cully
21I’m curious to know how many lurkers we have hereabouts? How many people are reading but not commenting?
Comment by: Stephan
22Cully,
11 (but that’s just a guess)
Comment by: Bob
23Very hopeful…and helpful.
I think it’s because we use the same words in different context. You use “god” as an idea that can be accepted, constructive, false, etc. I use “God” as a being who is alive and active. With starting points that different, we’re bound to “miss” each other.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
24TX, I won’t lay this off as Bob’s response, but my take on the idea, which I understand, is that God’s value system is not the same as the world’s value system. “According to the Bible” (I know, but that is what we’re talking about)the world’s value system was originally the same. “The Fall” and the entry of sin into the world screwed things up. And as a result, now, things that God does or values will not always make sense by the yardstick of human wisdom.
I think that the key Sin (capital S) was/is the sin of pride. The Bible suggests that that’s what doomed Satan. It suggests that that is what doomed man.
And it continues to this day, to screw up our lives. The chairman of Enron thinks, “The law doesn’t apply to ME,” and millions of people watch their savings go down the dumper. Just one example.
So, people look at how God works, and it makes no sense. We say, Take care of Numero Uno. God says, He who would be greatest among you must be servant of all. The first shall be last, the last first. We say, You only go around once, so grab for all the gusto. God says, Blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are the meek. And it shows up here. Some here say, Unless I see ___ I will not believe. God says, Without faith it is impossible to please God.
IOW, there is a counter-intuitive quality to creation, I believe, from start to finish.
Comment by: Esther
25Ir asked,
Esther, you might have to register to post now. Is registering a problem for you?
No, and I’ve just registered.
Thanks, Ir & Lisa W.
I have thought of this questions, too.
From the high number of viewing recorded on the discussion board, it seems that there are quite a number of people that are just reading and never write a comment.
What do you think?
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
26oops. Forgot to add… Welcome back, TX.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
27I’ll see what I can find out about ‘unique viewers’ stats.
Back in a minute.
You’ll be amazed
Comment by: Julie Marie
28Hi Tx, welcome back :)
Comment by: TXatheist
29Tom,
You can believe the bible says that. I believe it says submit to god and in doing that you can never justify anything. It will always put god at the top instead of real issues like CEO greed.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
30TX - I believe Jim H. asked you a couple questions in comment #7. Care to respond?
Comment by: TXatheist
31no
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
32TX, okeydoke.
EVERYONE: New Video posted. Take a look.
Comment by: TXatheist
33Lisa,
The mere idea of WHY my atheism needs clarification is the problem. When someone says they are xian I don’t go into a series of questions of why they believe. Only if they question or begin to tell me why I’m wrong does it have to go any farther. It’s not important until it has to be to them that I’m an atheist. Sway me? Yes, the mere suggestion that there is evidence has swayed my respect for xianity. There is no evidence in any shape or form for god. There is no pointers.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
34TXatheist-
Thanks for clarifying.
Comment by: Cully
35Lisa did you ever get those numbers?
Comment by: Lisa
36Cully,
Not yet. I have an idea but am checking with Dr. Winn for something more exact.
Comment by: Lisa
37Ok, this just in on the stats to this site:
This month so far there have been over 8,350 Unique Visitors.
What do you think about that?!
Comment by: TXatheist
38Honestly, I think Hemant and Jim deserve a round of applause for bringing this kind of attention to the matter.
Comment by: Julie Marie
39Wow! I knew I’d been captivated, first by the Hemant/Jim partnership and then by the people posting their thoughts about it. I can’t say I’m amazed that others are intrigued as well. I am so glad to see this exposure.
I’ve posted this in other places, so I was hesitant to be redundant, but since this site is so large now, I’ll restate the value of this experiment for me: the atheists on this site have forced me to examine the basis for my belief. I have had my presuppositions tested - and have abandoned the idea that the Bible is the literal Word of God. I believe it was written by men inspired by God and the Holy Spirit, but they were men that were subject also to the filters of their culture, so their experience of God cannot be pure and untainted. That has freed me to explore a much fuller expression of my faith, ironically.
After that vigorous pruning, the christian input on the site has helped me reconnect with what is the really vital, energizing, living part of my faith, and in the week since Easter, I have found an answer to my frustration with lack of discipleship (simple spirituality) and a new dream to MTWABP.
Comment by: Julie Marie
40I should have said their expression of their experience with God cannot be pure and untainted. I can’t speak to their experience. That is another benefit of this site: I am much more careful with my words.
Comment by: NCxian
41Lisa and Dr. Winn:
Re: “Unique Visitor”
If I visited without logging in today, and then tomorrow, visited without logging in again, would I be two “unique visitors”, or would the counter somehow know I am the same person each day? If the latter, then does my second visit mean I am no longer “unique” and I am not counted in that category at all, or am I just counted once? (Just curious. I’ve never participated in an on-line conversation before this one–it’s all fascinating).
Comment by: Ir
42NCxian, it probably counts unique access points - so, if you came here from work and home you’d be counted as 2 people, because you came here from two places; but if 3 members of your family come here from hom as 1 visitor.
Comment by: Lisa
43Thanks, Ir,
Dr. Winn will also be shedding some light on this UV definition.
Comment by: Lisa
44Dr. Winn notes:
Unique Visitors has to do with the whole Off The Map Site, not just the atheist blog or the ebayatheist discussion board. Once a person has entered the Off The Map domain once during a month, they are not recorded again unless they come in from a different IP address.
Comment by: NCxian
45Very cool–thanks! So there really are likely somewhere close to 8,350 folks who viewed some info at OTM. I’ll bet that is so-o-o the record!
Comment by: Brian
46Hi. I’ve been following the conversation here for some time and find it quite interesting. Bravo, everyone.
A while back, I saw a post (which I can’t seem to locate right now) that said something to the effect of “Christians, do you agree with the idea that atheists are cold-hearted and culturally elitist.” Everyone started talking about the “cold-hearted” part, but no one seemed interested in the “culturally elitist” part. This seems like a big issue that hasn’t really been discussed here. So, at the risk of offending people (which I’d like to say in advance I have no intention of doing), I’ll jump right in.
To put it bluntly: most people I know think that people who have more education, both in science and the humanities, are less likely to find the concept of religious belief compelling. As far as I know, the sociologists who have studied this phenomenon agree (for example: http://www.spirituality.ucla.edu/results/analysiscollege.pdf . Now, I’m not an expert in this field in any way — I’d like to hear from those who are.). Anecdotally, I can say that I am a Ph.D. student in one of the top ten English departments in the U.S. and know very few believers. For most educated people, religion ceased to be taken seriously in the nineteenth century, if not earlier. Although it’s easy to name exceptions (Lewis, Niebuhr, etc…), most people agree that the mainstream of serious thought in the West hasn’t had much to do with religious belief in well over a hundred years.
It’s also true, as far as I know, that the parts of the country where more educated people live (big cities, the coasts) have less religion in their public discourse than elsewhere. As a kid from an atheist family in Daytona Beach, Florida (home of NASCAR), I was definitely an outsider in my community — because my parents had more education than most of my friends’ parents. I had no intention of staying there, and moved on to academia as an adult. I went to one of the top ten liberal arts colleges in the US (really, I’m not bragging here — just explaining where I’m coming from) and never really looked back. Very few people I went to college with were religious, and the few exceptions were looked at with a mixture of curiosity, pity, and disdain.
Elsewhere in the world, countries with higher levels of education than ours (primarily Western and Central Europe and Japan) tend to have lower levels of belief as well.
There are, of course, many varieties of religious belief, and it’s clear that some of the more intellectually developed strains of Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism are better received among educated people, while fundamentalist religions have (until recently) been seen as a mostly working-class phenomenon.
Ultimately, education in the West is an Enlightenment project. One of its main goals is to discourage irrational belief and to encourage people to approach their lives according to principles of reason. Yes, many of the key Enlightenment thinkers held a belief in some kind of deity, but nothing like what is called “Christianity” in the U.S. today. Education may not be incompatible with some forms of religion, but it’s definitely incompatible with fundamentalism and fundamentalists must therefore be excluded from the mainstream of educated society.
So here’s my question: if you live in the U.S., what do you think about the relationship between religion and social status here? If you’re an atheist, do you feel like you’re part of a cultural elite? If you’re a Christian, do you feel like you’re excluded from one?
Comment by: Brian
47By the way: sorry if my previous post was off-topic; administrator, please put it where you think it belongs.
B
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
48Hi Brian,
Well, to let you know where I’m coming from, I attended a liberal arts college, too. At the time I went (eons ago) it was harder to get into than Harvard. It is a Christian college, Wheaton. I was a member of Mensa for awhile. (Quit because it was boring.) I have an MBA. I have been an administrator at a University of California campus for 35 years. I was a founder, with an engineering faculty member, of a campus Christian Faculty & Staff organization. (Wish we could be Inklings.) My wife an I hold season tickets to the theater, and I enjoy all kinds of music, including “high brow”, and am an avid reader. So that’s my context.
On our campus we have a fairly large number of Christians among the faculty. They are most heavily concentrated in the sciences and engineering, very sparse in the arts, humanities and social sciences. The campus also has scores of Christian student organizations, in addition to local church ministries, with probably a couple thousand members among them all.
At this point in my life, I’ve come to value common sense and caring human relationships more than concepts of “elitism”, so I really don’t thik in those terms. Besides, it was the “elites” that have given us programs that enslave and entrap people in poverty and that doom kids to poor quality educations that perpetuate the cycle. So, if there is a “cultural elite” I’ll gladly pass. It strikes me more as a sign of overweening pride than accomplishment.
YMMV.
Comment by: NCxian
49Welcome, Brian! Interesting question. You’re right, it’s something we must of skipped over earlier.
Folks, Brian has moved this question to the “Open Discussion and Debate” forum.
Comment by: Ian
50Why am I here ?
I want to give my 2 cents…to challenge the perception that I am “lost”…
What I have learned that there are progressive forward thinking Christians out there that I am able to have a normal conversation with…
Comment by: Eliza
51Came here intrigued that an atheist would willingly interact with a Christian - I’d gotten used to freezing up and darting away if a C started overtly talking about religion (particularly if their concern over me looked like it was on the horizon). Also, wanted to figure out how some could believe so strongly in something I didn’t believe in at all.
Involvement here has helped address both of those areas, and taught me more that I didn’t know ahead of time would be interesting or useful. Now I feel much more comfortable participating in conversations (incl. face-to-face) about religion, and have starting asking some of my sicker and/or older patients about their religious beliefs (and friends, and family too - when it seems appropriate, not forcing the conversation).
Involvement in this site has given me tools and awareness so that I was able to actively participate in a ~1 hr discussion a few days ago started by a coworker who turns out to have some very New Age beliefs, very spiritual but definitely not mainstream, to complete what was lacking before for her (she still believes in Jesus and God). I never could have had that conversation 6 weeks ago. I was comfortably able to ask questions about her belief system, and they seemed to come across as respectful of her beliefs, and was able to describe my own personal beliefs (skepticism, atheism) & not have that end the conversation. So thanks everyone (I think!).
Comment by: Lisa
52Eliza -
What you have described is pretty much what makes OTM very happy.
BRAVO!
(69 degrees and sunny in Seattle makes Eliza and Lisa very happy people) :)
Comment by: Eliza
5370, even - it was a gorgeous day!
Hey, Lisa - does OTM have offices at the mailing address, 17712 15th Ave NE? I live just 1.5 miles away…thought about popping by to say hi sometime!
Comment by: Ian
54actually to be honest I came to use the washroom but I saw it was happy hour with 10 cent wings …
I am a sucker for that…
Comment by: Ir
55Me too, Ian. (But don’t tell anyone! :))
Comment by: Ir
56I attended church a lot without my husband since he’s an atheist (and no-one had offered him $25 to survey my church ;)). Christians often asked me, with the concerned look, “How is he?”
and I knew they didn’t mean “Is he over his cold yet?” or “How is his job going?” The next comment was often “I have a great book that he should read…”
yadayadayada…
Thanks for being curious and actually coming to find out instead of assuming an answer (which is what a lot of people seem to do).
I’m so glad - me too. (And there was the washroom and the 10 cent wings, of course…)
I think the key is to get to where there’s enough trust in the relationship that it wouldn’t get completely derailed by the disclosure of how different your respective belief/non-belief systems are. I.e. you’ve got to the point in the relationship where their view of you as a decent person will prevail over any stereotypes they might have had about people who are atheists.
Eliza, I’m curious - do you think that as well as giving you tools and experience, this site has also helped you believe it might be more worth having the conversation than you would have previously thought? And so it’s encouraged you to try something you wouldn’t have thought worth trying before?
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
57Ian,
Down the hall and to the left.
Meet us at the bar for margaritas at 7:00.
:)
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
58Eliza,
That is the address of the Vineyard Community church actually.
I’ll email you and we’ll connect.
I’ve been thinking about that too!