Posted by Hemant Mehta on: 04.24.2006 /
This was the last church visit for Off-the-Map and I just wanted to thank everyone for reading and commenting. It was fun and I learned a lot. I will now be updating my own website (www.friendlyatheist.com) more often, but still making occasional comments here.
The visit yesterday was quite the experience. I went to a Vineyard church in Evanston, IL and Jim accompanied me. We only spoke before and after the sermon so the experience could be as objective as possible.
The majority of the service was (now) typical. The music was nice to listen to, though the lyrics are still repetitious. I’m pretty sure that any 4-year-old can write “God is strong,” “God is Good,” etc. which is probably why the music isn’t as captivating to me.
The sermon was spoken by a woman, Debby Wright, who was visiting from a British Vineyard church. She told stories of how the church had helped people back home (as opposed to a sermon talking about a Biblical passage). The stories were powerful, but as a skeptic, I did question some of them. For example, she told one story of helping a prostitute back home. The prostitute had a baby (I think she did, anyway… the point is that a baby was involved). The baby got sick. They all prayed together. The baby got better. Her conclusion was that the prayer worked, and obviously I disagreed– I would think there’s a natural explanation for it.
However, I did like her stories of her church just doing random acts of kindness for homeless people and those less fortunate, even though it was in the name of Jesus. In general, I’m never really interested in the reason you do good things, but I’m glad you’re doing them. I wish more churches were more like that. And it doesn’t matter if it’s because of Jesus, Allah, or No One that you do these things. Clearly, her group was helping people out. And for that, she should be commended. Atheists do this, too, but not as often as we should.
One other story that stuck out was that she was with a sick friend and wanted to help her. The pastor (pastress?) said she knew if she spoke in tongues her friend would feel better, so she did it! She admitted she just made up what she was saying, but she knew it would help her friend. She said this story with the point of being humorous, but it reinforced the idea that no one is actually speaking in tongues. You might be making it up. Or you might be saying any random gibberish and actually convince yourself you can speak in tongues. I’ve never heard of any two strangers whose “speaking in tongues” story corroborated. No one’s ever speaking the same language.
In the same way, she mentioned stories of people shaking with the spirit of the Lord. And a few people have said to me they have had similar experiences. Again, I haven’t had the experience, but I do often wonder if the people are subconsciously doing it on their own and convincing themselves it was God.
The strangest twist occurred at the end of the sermon. The pastor had told a story of how she knew someone who had a spinal cord problem and as people touched the person, the spinal cord immediately realigned. (I’ve also never heard that story in any medical journal, and if anyone could explain what happened, it’d be Nobel Prize winning research, so forgive me for being suspect of the truthfulness of this story.) After the sermon she asked the audience if anyone had back problems. Some raised their hands. She asked the audience if anyone felt a tingling in their arms because it was a sign from God (Well, considering most peoples’ hands were in one position for the past hour, I would be shocked if many hands were *not* tingling…). She told the tinglers– and anyone else who wanted to pray– to put their hands on the backs of the people who had back problems. All of a sudden, the congregation became small groups of people with someone at each center. They stayed in this position as others left the auditorium– some stayed for quite some time afterwards.
That was strange.
I didn’t hear any shoutings that someone was cured. And I don’t think anything actually happened. If there’s any benefit to this, it’s that the people with back problems could physically be touched (that’s always a good thing) and know that even strangers are caring about them (which is also always good). So I could see how this helps emotionally. Physically, though, I have no reason to think this accomplished anything.
It all goes back to the idea that we believe whatever we want to believe. And we credit God with the good things in our lives but don’t always condemn God for any bad things. I heard stories of how God healed the sick but not stories of how God made them sick in the first place.
Jim and I actually started getting emotional about this healing service when we discussed it afterwards. He was defending it, and I was against it. He can comment on his side of it, but my perspective was that while putting hands on peoples’ backs hurts doesn’t hurt me, the problem is that I’m afraid people might actually think this works and stop seeing real doctors as a result. I don’t want people I care about to resort to alternative medicines or faith healing because I know there’s no scientific evidence that it works. And they could be harming themselves in the process. Without putting words in Jim’s mouth, his response was that no one was doing this is lieu of visiting a professional. There’s a wonderful website, www.quackwatch.org, that details the problems with alternative medicine. In this case, I urge you to read this piece: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html.
This wasn’t a Benny Hinn type of touch-the-forehead-and-fall-down faith healing. It gave power to the people to work as agents of God. I can see why it’s popular. But popular doesn’t mean it’s right.
Case in point: I read this book The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down by Anne Fadiman about a group of people called the Hmongs who would often see people shaking in their community. They said the “spirit” caught them and revered this and refused medical treatment as a result. Which was a problem since the people really had epilepsy. I’m saying this only because there is serious harm that can come from thinking this stuff actually is good for us.
Jim defended this practice, though, and he did have some valid points. He said this was the type of church he used to pastor so he knows about these practices– and I’ll admit, I know very little outside what I saw. Jim also corrected me on some of my judgments about this service, which I think you need to hear before commenting on this piece.
Anyway, it was a very nice bookend to the whole churching experience. I look forward to reading your comments and I hope you’ll continue coming to this site and my own at www.friendlyatheist.com.
Comment by: KSG
1 04/24/06 12:16 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Hemant for all your church visits and posts. Although I haven’t had opportunity to post lately, I’ve read each with much interest and appreciate your perspective.
Jim, please give us your perspective on “laying on hands” and “healing”.
A question to all, what do you think of the “speaking in tongues” thing?
Comment by: jrw
2 04/24/06 1:32 PM | Comment Link |KSG - regarding your “speaking in tongues” query:
My understanding is that “Tongues” are actual languages such as Spanish, Thai, etc., the person speaking them has not previously learned them, but has been empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak them.
I belong to (but am NOT a pastor of) an evangelical Bible-preaching church where we are taught about the “sign gifts” such as tongues, but don’t actively encourage the practice of them.
Generally, (I think) it’s because it not viewed as necessary (speaking in tongues) as the folk in the congragation all understand English.
Whether or not “Tongues” are valid for today is not mine to determine. There is plenty of debate on that topic.
Within the guidelines of speaker/interpreter and the tongue being a known or identifiable language, I don’t have a problem with the matter. (See 1 Corinthians 12 and related passages.)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3 04/24/06 2:13 PM | Comment Link |I have had a lot of experience with healing prayers. I will leave the longer explanation of this practice up to those who I’m sure will show up pretty soon.
I was intrigued with Hemants reaction to the whole process. I figured that openminded people just say - o well - to each his own - same circumstances different opinions but Hemant had feelings about this and shared with me that all of these people were being misguided and encouraged to not go to doctors and to believe that the mere act of touching someone would being healing to them.
I explained to him that nothing of the kind had been told or would be told to this particular group. Having been a part of the Vineyard movement for the past 25 years I am quite familiar with what they do and don;t believe regarding healing prayers. In fact imo Vineyard has written the book on “best practices for those desiring healing prayer”.
Now - Do I believe that people were healed at the meeting we attended- maybe 1-3 out of hundreds who asked for prayer(according to how my experience has been gone over the past 25 years). Does that make all the effort wasted? not for the 1-3 and also not for almost anyone else who asked for prayer and didn’t get the hoped for answer.
My experience is that most people appreciate being prayed for and are grateful for ANY improvement in ANY area of their life. They also ave often been unable to find people who are willing to pray for them. I think it is a profound act of love and sacrifice (try praying for someone for 2 hours (or even 20 minutes) sometime before you criticize people or impugn their motives.
Do I pray for sick people- gladly - have I personally seen healings? Not many that I could take to court. Does that dissuade me? Not in the least - People want hope and prayer offers them that.
As I stated - I will not explain or defend this practice since it cannot be proven either way - for those who want to participate in that endless debate have fun but don;t leave the light on for me.
O yea - I speak in tongues too - have for 35 years - really find it helpful and it has nothing to do with the way jrw talks about it. He was taught that from groups who don;t think speaking in tongues is “for today” - my only question - what are you going to tell the hundreds of millions of people who do it everyday?
Comment by: Julie Marie
4 04/24/06 2:16 PM | Comment Link |My church teaches “tongues” are a special prayer language; more direct communication between the HS and God. Some also have the gift of interpretation.
While I was being prayed over on a mission trip, the person praying started speaking in tongues. I didn’t realize it until someone else came rushing over to interpret. (I just figured since I was in Mexico, the fellow was speaking Spanish!) The message relayed was incredibly loving, kind, and displayed intimate awareness of an unspoken question. Interestingly, the “pet name” used for me was the same one that had been used fifteen years earlier, in upstate New York when a woman in my small group said God spoke to her about me. (Little One. The irony of this would be inescapable if you could see me b/c I am almost 6 feet tall.)
Do I base my belief on this experience? No. But it sure makes me feel good! And no, I have neither the gift of tongues nor the gift of interpretation. Its not something I think much about really, but since you asked…
Comment by: TXatheist
5 04/24/06 2:36 PM | Comment Link |Jim,
Oh well perpetuating something that provides false hope? Jim, that’s not what we ethical atheists are about if I may say. We don’t want false hope to be seen as against open-mindedness. We want honest answers for these people, not false hope. Praying for food or health is not going to bring them. I don’t want to come across as not being open minded but these people might as well hope to win the lotto and not actually play the lotto.
Comment by: KSG
6 04/24/06 3:55 PM | Comment Link |Jim,
Thanks for weighing in. I wanted to wait until you had commented before saying anything… so here’s my bit… on praying for healing, I’ve always been curious to listen to an “outsider” opinion on the subject because I grew up in a church who believes (as do I) that prayer works. And that prayer for healing works (seen it & experienced it). Does it work all the time? No. Does it always work instantly? No. But it does work (based on experience), and it’s NOT a lottery, like if God pulls your number and you are wearing orange socks, clean underwear, and answer the skill-testing question correctly then God might heal you.
All that said, I enjoy hearing what someone who hasn’t grown up within that type of community things about it. I find it ironic that Hemant thinks prayer for healing is a false hope since so many times people hope in a medical system that ends up failing them… is prayer that bad of an option? Hope is a powerful force (so is faith), why rob someone of it?
As an aside, I do believe that too many people offer “lottery” prayers that are nothing more than “I hope I get lucky and get healed” prayers (but that’s an issue of discipleship).
Oh, and I’ve “prayed in tongues” for some 26 years too. It’s a valuable tool.
Comment by: Julie Marie
7 04/24/06 4:03 PM | Comment Link |Perpetuating false hope would mean something was promised that is not delivered. From my experience with intercessory prayer there are no promises made, just concern and petition. I don’t see that as harmful in any way, quite the contrary, it is comforting to those who request it.
Comment by: Mike C
8 04/24/06 4:16 PM | Comment Link |While there are a very few groups that discourage members from seeing health professionals, these are usually considered cults. The vast majority of pentecostal groups do not see healing prayer as a replacement for medical attention. They will pray for someone, and encourage them to see a doctor. While I understand Hemant’s concern, the truth is it’s honestly not a problem in most mainstream pentecostal groups.
And do people sometimes fake speaking in tongues? Sure. But that doesn’t mean it’s always fake. I know plenty of people who will testify to it’s reality.
And speaking in tongues can sometimes mean speaking in another human language, or in an unknown “heavenly” language. Among pentecostals the second is more common, but I have had friends who have had experiences as missionaries overseas where they were able to preach to people in their own language despite never having learned that langauge. (And these are first hand accounts… I’ve talked to the people to whom this happened.)
I’ve also heard first hand accounts where a friend of mine laid hands on a blind person who literally had no eyes, and his eyes actually regrew as they were praying for them! I would be skeptical of this kind of story too, except that I know and trust the person to whom it happened, and I believe their account. Was it recorded in a medical journal? I doubt it since it happened in rural, post-Soviet Albania, but maybe, I don’t know.
Comment by: TXatheist
9 04/24/06 5:55 PM | Comment Link |Julie Marie,
Do you see caring for these people as beneficial also? Getting them water, food, basic supplies, converstation, and enjoy a movie or music to entertain oneself? These things don’t provide false hope, just compassion. We’ll have to disagree on prayer having any positive effect and not being a false hope.
Mike C. I don’t believe your friend and I’ve had close friends tell me stuff that I just politely not bothering responding to. If someone told me they made eyeballs regrow I’d remain dead silent out of our respect for our friendship but I wouldn’t perpetuate the story as true.
Comment by: Julie Marie
10 04/24/06 7:13 PM | Comment Link |TX: absolutely, caring, nurturing and meeting the physical needs of people is essential. Meeting the social needs is also often overlooked, imo, and just as important. That we agree on the benefits of prayer for those who believe in it is not essential.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
11 04/24/06 8:04 PM | Comment Link |Hemant, first, let me thank you for your unusual step of curiousity, courage, and integrity in the decision you made that made all of this possible. And, Jim, thank you for stepping up, too. In the hands of a lesser man, Hemant’s bid would never have produced all that it has.
To your experiences. If you’ll permit, a couple stories. In the 60s, “tongues” was a phenomenon that was extremely controversial and divisive. While I was at Wheaton (65-69) an expert linguist from a Christian missions organization was brought to campus for an experiment — all parties involved participated at their free will. Wheaton has a lot of students who grew up in foreign countries. So they had a foreign student come up and talk to the linguist. The linguist did not know the language. He had a chalk board and he made notes on the sounds that he heard. And then using the rules of linguistics, in a matter of a half hour he was conversing in the foreign language in simple sentences. He’d figured out some vocabulary and some grammatical rules.
Then they brought up a student who claimed the gift of tongues. And she spoke. And the linguist wrote. And after 45 minutes to an hour, the linguist said he could not make any sense of it at all. No vocabular, no patterns of grammar.
Another story. A good friend of mine, a country boy who grew up in Montana, was working on a PhD in Microbiology (IIRC). He and his wife were Christians and had an international student Bible study in their home. The study grew rapidly and became a vital force in many lives. And then they began having problems. The group shrank down to just a handful. One night while the group was praying, Don felt an urge to pray and began to speak….in tongues. I don’t think this was a common pactice for him. But when he was done, as he looked up, he heard sobbing from one of the men.
The man, also a PhD student, was from (then) Ceylon but had immigrated to India with his family as a boy. He asked Don, “Do you know what you said?” Don said, “No.” The fellow said, “You spoke to me in the dialect that was spoken in the village I grew up in on Ceylon. You told me that the reason for the trouble in the group was because of attitudes I have held in my heart towards others in the group. And that is true. And I want to apologize.”
Other comments: regarding prayers. One of my pet peeves is the stuff a lot of Christians pray for. If you compare the things that are prayed for in the NT and the way they are prayed for, with the prayers of a lot of Christians…well, let’s just say it is pathetic.
Regarding music: There are a lot of Christians who feel the same way. (Probably most are older.) IMHO, most contemporary Christian music is lousy, with shallow lyrics that don’t say much even if you do repeat them a dozen times. ;-)
Your comment is interesting to me because, generally, the churches that are big on contemporary musical styles, make a big case that it has to be up-beat and contemporary or else it won’t be attractive to new, younger people. Notwithstanding the fact that there’s hundreds of years worth of music of profound lyrical content and quality.
Comment by: skikid
12 04/24/06 8:11 PM | Comment Link |This just a very general question… I have never seen anyone speak in tongues, its almost never discussed in my church (if it is generally the subject is changed VERY quickly) and to my knowledge I dont know anyone who does it… so my only real source on it are the movie “Saved” and I am guessing thats probably not the best source. I have always just thought about it as kinda strange…
So to those who practice it… what does it mean to you? I am beginning to get that it can be pretty meaningful and I would like to develop a respect for what it means to others.
Comment by: Eliza
13 04/24/06 8:11 PM | Comment Link |Mike C, clearly your friend is someone you trust, but the eye-regrowth report is too incredible to believe. We here will never know what happened there that day, but a skeptic can come up with other explanations. For example, if your friend saw 2 empty eye sockets, then the eyes were very briefly covered, then he saw 2 normal eyes, it’s possible the blind person slipped in his ocular prostheses. (But he would still have been blind.) Doing some cruising on google just now, I found a few reports of miracles occurring in Albania (most detailed report dated 6/2001 from the Weekly World News, not a reliable source); a listing for an ocular prosthetist in Albania, from 2000; and information on Peter Popoff, faith healer who was debunked by skeptic James Randi in 1987. I also found abstracts on Pub Med (National Library of Medicine) of some papers examining historical claims of miracles (on limited information, of course, they can only guess), and some examining beliefs around faith healing in US in recent years. One abstract examines Eastern and Western miracle accounts, concluding that “miracle accounts quite consequently reflect cultural differences between East and West.” Americans and Albanians may have different expectations regarding the likelihood of miraculous healing, which wouldn’t (in my mind) change the requirement that incredible claims be able to stand up to vigorous inquiry and examination to be “believed”…
Comment by: Christa
14 04/24/06 11:13 PM | Comment Link |wow. All I can say right now is wow. (Give me sec, then I’ll be my usual gabby self.)
Hemant, you’re to be commended for your quest and open curiosity, but I confess I’ve got a bunch of questions I’m hoping you will be able to give me insight on.
I am a mother of two baby girls, ages 2 and 3. I was raised in a most interesting situation in a very “bad” section of Brooklyn NYC to a Lutheran mother and a dad whose description has taken an entire book (it was just published last month). My dad is 94 years old this year and has spent most of his life in environmental and world peace issues. Though his works are admirable to many, I’ve despised (you will forgive my bluntness) his choice to agree with thinkings that do not agree with scripture.
Because of your experiences and beliefs, I wonder if you will believe my stories, but what we believe and who we choose to believe (even if it is ourselves) dictates just about everything we do and act on.
From a very young age of around 3 or 4 years old, I talked to Jesus, knowing (how do we “know” things and truth?) that God was with me. For years I sought and hungered for more of His presence, as passionately as a woman would seek for a lover, because I trusted and knew and believed that in Him I had everything I needed, whether food, or clothes, or the acceptance and Love each human so desparately needs. My life was a paradox: the ghetto I lived in daily around me; the nightmarish horrors of shots in the night, constant sirens and fights, drugs and abuse - yet I fought, and, boy, do I mean fought, to strive to see the reality of the Living Christ in and around me. I prayed, sometimes two or three times daily, Psalms 91 that says that “he who dwells (lives and abides) in the secret place of the Most High SHALL abide under the shadow of the Almighty.” It continues to speak of protection after protection that comes from believing, fearing (the kind of fear that knows when Dad says, “don’t play in the middle of the highway,” he means it. He’s not going to run you over with His car to prove His point, He just knows how the world works and wants you to be safe.) and LOVING God. So I would read it and read it and read it - LOL - yep, trying to brainwash my brain to just GET these scriptures past my brain and into my heart so I can live it.
It would take a book (and someday I hope to write one:)) to tell of all the “coincidences” I’ve had in my life in relation to my praying to God. But the bottom line is who do you believe? Even if (and here’s where my questions start) you only look at the natural - the physical environment in this world - you must acknowledge their laws. 1+1=2 2+2=4 We see the proof of micro-evolution, of evolution within species, etc. We, now more than ever, know scientific knowledge, but even here, as an atheist (this puzzles much), do you not acknowledge that you’ve got to believe SOMEONE? You’ve never sailed around the world, most likely, yet your logical mind says it is round. Why? Who do you believe? I’ve been irritated at doctors recently, though right now our current family physician is awesome, because of their mistakes - or possibly my lack of communication or unwillingness to yell “HEY THERE”S A PROBLEM!” - has cost me, in pain, etc. Well, so I’m irritated at these couple of docs who misdiagnosed, but I’m not really angry, because they are human and mess up just like I do. Sooooo, do I quit going to doctors because I had an illness too long that could’ve been stopped sooner? Nah, basically, I’m still going to go to them; who do you believe? There are set rules in the universe. Do you know them all? Does Darwin? (Do I?:)) When we come to a disagreement about things such as the world’s origin, is it really a scientific question or one of belief? Who do we believe? I agree with Darwin on much, but most strongly disagree on some of his conclusions.
Where does Love come from? I’m not talking the chemical emotion thing. I’m talking about the kind of love that causes Mother Teresa to do the things she does. The kind of love that causes one man to throw himself on a grenade to save a comrade. Where does that evolve from? Does evolution only hold true to the visible, physical world or does it hold true to the invisible as well? If evolution is true, where do beliefs evolve from? Why do we seek them and use them? Many individuals’ thought patterns cause destruction, some cause life. Why the difference?
Eventually, every religion, including athesim, comes down to one question: WHO do you believe?
Does this make sense? My frustration has been that people may believe voices in the wind, they may believe their own minds capable of rightly discerning truth - but what seems strange is that they deny that all they can do is believe - something, someone - a mother, a friend, a book, their own experiences - somewhere they choose to determine who they are going to listen to and accept - and that becomes their authority, their god.
So whether it be my own intelligence that I trust, or another’s, such as Darwin, or perhaps I’ve come to the conclusion that only a Book contains absolute Truth, but whoever or whatever I believe - it is no more than that - belief. I’ve never known my God through His Word to lie, though I’ve known myself to many times “miss it,” and, nauseating to myself, I’ve mis-represented Him enough times by not living the life His Love intended me to live. For one moment I CHOSE to believe a man - God in the flesh - Jesus Christ. Very simply, I believe. I don’t “get” or understand it all, any more than by agreeing to the principles of math, you can understand the rules of the universe, but we must simply choose to believe - someone. For me, He is a reality more real than the ground upon which I stand, for one day this floor and earth will be no more, but my Beloved Lord has remained and will remain forever. But that is what I believe. What do we base our beliefs upon? Experience is a major source, but even here there are problems, because our conclusions may be faulty.
I never needed a knife or a gun in Brooklyn the 20 years I lived there. My friends in high school would plead with me, one guy said he’d buy me a gun, what was I nuts walking around Bushwick without it? I told him that God was with me. Coincidentally, I was never harmed. I had been diagnosed with a curvature of the spine as a young teen. The doctor, not a Christian, had told my mom I would have to wear a brace to correct the curve. My mom asked for some time. That Sunday in our Lutheran church, the elders and pastor laid hands on me according to the Word and I was healed. I felt the presence of God and when I went back to the doctor, he ran the x-ray twice, puzzled at the sudden change. I believe it was a 19 degree curve to a six degree curve. He couldn’t understand or explain it, and my mom simply said, well, we prayed. The six degree was within normal range; I didn’t need the brace. I could go on with story after story of such personal coincidences that agree with the Word and prayer, but not necessarily with the scientific world. I’ve learned my position in Christ Jesus, not an arrogant one, or I’m in error and wrong, but one that simply knows there is Somebody on my side who really, really loves me and cares about every little detail in my life. He’s awesome, Hemant. He also has an amazing tendancy to always be right. I’m not talking about a preacher. I’m talking about my Beloved Lord. There’s no one like Him. Please understand, my entire youth, my religion and belief was in the vast minority. My dad, one of two people known as the Founder of Earth Day, spent most of his time among people of different religions and backgrounds, which I love - I really, really enjoy cultural differences (esPESially the food - yum!). We spent much time at the U.N. in my youth. But as much as I love people’s wonderful diveristies, I despise the deception of an evil unseen force who’s only goal (because it has nothing left BUT deception) is to deceive people into believing ANYTHING but the truth. Truth is a narrow path and the roadside on either side is quite broad, at times pleasant looking. Like a surgeon who needs to remove one minute thing, there is much around the spot to which he can poke and prod, but if he does not focus in on what is important, nothing else matters, no matter how much he pokes and prods.
Jesus Christ said, “I AM the Way, the Truth and Life. No one cometh to the Father, but by Me.”
So who’s intelligence do you trust in the most? Who do you believe? Darwin? Mohammad? Yourself? I confess, I’ve found myself at fault far too often to trust myself completely, but I’ve never, ever seen this man, Christ, fail or lie.
On the other notes, I preach Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead, but, yes, I’ve spoken in tongues since age 12 and been EVER so grateful for His precious gift of the Holy Spirit. The Bible teaches humans are made up of three entwined parts: body, soul and spirit. The speaking in tongues is the spirit of the man speaking by the Holy Spirit, just by-passing his (the man’s) brain. My translation:). The Word of God says that the “spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” In other words, God’s a gentleman, my will is involved when I open my mouth to allow God to speak. Sounds crazy, but not so crazy as the concept of the Shikinah (spell?) Glory of the God of the universe living inside of me, a very fragile, often sinful, but saved by grace - human temple.
I’ve never known a minister or person (myself included) with whom I didn’t disagree at one time or another, but then I don’t agree with all doctors and scientists either. However, if my daughter gets the flu, guess what? We’re going to the doctor. Why? Because the principle is true even though the vessel is human and has errors.
If it’s any consolation, I’m constantly concerned that my gift for gab is going to get me thrown out of one chat group or another, but this was special. I must confess my admiration at this whole thing and when I have more time I hope to read the past listings.
I’m going to pray to God for you tonight, dear Hemant, that whatever you’re needing from Him, He will give you. His ways are most loving. Sin is a cancer that ends in death every time. The dear Lord not only gives us nerves - warning signs - to warn of impending danger, but provided His death on the cross as the cure. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who simply believe it is the power of God unto salvation. Christ’s message is so simple a child can easily grasp it; so simple that many wise men miss it completely.
Hmmm…”last” comment on the healing thing. I have a horrible tendency and fear I may be in pride, because I think the Bible’s really simple and easy to understand. The Bible clearly states that faith (for healing, for example) works by LOVE. It also defines love (so scratch Webster’s for a moment here.) Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, it does NOT ENVY, it does NOT BOAST (i lose here just about every time). Love is NOT PROUD. (OW) It is NOT RUDE. (Hey! you talkin’ to me?!) It is not self-seeking. (uhhhhh….) It keeps NO RECORD of wrongs. (ok, think about that one for a moment, ever taken someone to court - ok, you lose.) Love does not rejoice in evil, but rejoices in the Truth (ok, scratch being politically correct - another verse says “HATE what is evil, Cling to what is good). Love Bears all things, believeth all things (forgive my switching versions), hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never fails.”
I just figure when healing doesn’t it come, it’s because somewhere my life is not lined up with the Word - someplace in my life I’m not walking in love. So then I go back to the basics, remember the cross, ask for forgiveness and see if there’s anyone I’ve hurt or need to forgive, or selfishness that needs killing (in me) etc.
Christ never had that problem of not loving. His every act was out of love for us, just like His Father. I do pretty well (now I’m boasting, darn) in giving, etc. until it costs me physical pain. That’s where I’m at now, and praying, somewhat fearfully, for God to strengthen me in that area, so if it means physical pain for me to love, I’m still willing to give it. I’m sort of scared to start down that road, but I believe the command to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all of your mind and all of your STRENGTH.” is important. Also, God’s commands are all for our benefit, not His. Did you know that? It’s out of His love He gives those commands. When we obey them, we are so, so richly blessed. I’ve made some pretty radical decisions in my life, but I’ve NEVER regretting obeying and loving God. The biggest reward is in my beloved husband (another interesting miracle story for another time) and two beautiful baby girls. Speaking of which, it’s bedtime.
Have a blessed night, everyone.
In His Most wonderful Love, Christa
Comment by: Julie Marie
15 04/25/06 3:23 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for sharing that story, Tom. It is nice to see, from time to time, how quickly God’s input can change the heart of a believer. We see so many “hearts of stone” stories about christians and it wears down my spirit. (Larry said something about that when he said its easy to get discouraged when you focus on what man is doing rather than what God is doing.)
Comment by: Keith Kepley
16 04/25/06 6:45 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
You have my respect as a result of a number of contributions the Lord has made to my life through you. Hemant described your conversation with him afterward as “getting emotional.” What is productive and unproductive about getting emotional in a conversation with someone Jesus misses? As you look back on the conversation, is there anything you would do differently? With the possibility of getting emotional about a number of Hemant’s comments throughout this process … why was “speaking in tongues” the subject the two of you got emotional over? Was this primarily becuase of your reaction or Hemant’s? Recognizing emotion as a strong communicator (you and Hemant both opened your eyes when you realized this person you liked felt so strongly about this), what message was communicated by an emotional reaction on this subject?
Hemant,
Thank you again for your investment of time and for your candor. Your desire to see others cared for is ethical. What did you learn about Jim’s priorities through this entire process … in what ways did his emotion/lack of emotion on various topics surprise you?
Comment by: TXatheist
17 04/25/06 7:26 AM | Comment Link |This is what I’m talking about. This mentality that we all need Jesus and he misses us.
No offense personally Keith.
Comment by: Keith Kepley
18 04/25/06 8:06 AM | Comment Link |No offense taken
Comment by: Jayson B.
19 04/25/06 8:29 AM | Comment Link |That’s a false assumption that our medical system can heal everyone or that our medical system can even heal people that we know what is exactly wrong with them.
Secular medicine doesn’t give people false hope, it doesn’t garuantee success. It doesn’t lie to people. But secular medicine has saved more lives in the history of man than prayer ever has, and that is a FACT. Secular medicine has helped provide the greatest level of public health in the history of man, and that is a FACT.
Here is where prayer is dangerous, and this isn’t just something that happens in small churches:
People pray for their cancer to go away. It goes into remission, so they praise god for the miracle. They stop going to doctors. They die later on because the cancer comes back.
cancer goes into remission ALL THE TIME. Doctors warn against this false hope, and suggest to people to continue treatments. But they stop, because they have convinced themselves that god has answered their prayers.
But when they die, instead of proclaiming that prayer didn’t work, people proclaim that it was god’s decision to take that person then.
It’s the game of recording no losses and no ties. It’s easy to give yourself a false sense of victory when you ignore the negatives.
Comment by: Jayson B.
20 04/25/06 8:34 AM | Comment Link |Tom, this sounds absurd. You say that your friend directly experienced this, that your friend himself was the one who spoke in this language, correct?
Are you POSITIVE about that? I’m sorry, but my b.s. meter is going off. There are thousands of christian urban myths like this.
If this happens, why is there never a recording of this? Why, given that so many churches record their sermons, has there never been genuine proof of someone speaking another language that they’ve never had contact with, speaking about things they would never know?
Why, if it is true, and it just so happens that god made certain it never happens around recording devices, why would god consistently choose word of mouth to spread such “truth” when it’s been shown that word of mouth is the worst way to spread truth?
I’m having a hard time believing this story.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
21 04/25/06 9:37 AM | Comment Link |Jayson - I agree with many of your points per ignoring the negatives- I really do and have seen Cs do that way too often, to prove the unproveable
But - When you say mediecine doesn;t lie!! Have you been to a hospital lately? Have you sat thru emergencies. Medecine can’t lie but those who practice withold truth and fail to admit ignorance everyday- lets get real and not diefy science/medecine- It is a faulty and uneven process at best
Comment by: Jim Henderson
22 04/25/06 9:38 AM | Comment Link |Keith- I will get to your insightful questions in a while
Comment by: Ir
23 04/25/06 10:58 AM | Comment Link |Yeah really. Good points, Jim.
Comment by: TXatheist
24 04/25/06 11:06 AM | Comment Link |You mean outside their capacities? Sure, but the few doctors I know send you to a specialist. When they start giving me aspiring to heal a broken leg I’ll guestion them. Are they intentionally giving me bad care? I’d say no but I do know the insurance companies ride them constantly so they have to be cautious or else they get paid so little.
Comment by: Ir
25 04/25/06 11:07 AM | Comment Link |Jayson, I don’t see how you can prove that prayer is at fault if someone goes into remission and stops going to see the doctor. How do you know that some people don’t stop going when they go into remission regardless of whether they see the remission as miraculously answered prayer or some happy accident?
Also, every Christian I know who has had cancer that went into remission, has kept seeing the doctor.
I don’t know who these people are who quit going. As I said maybe the reason they quit is that they are less cautious than those who keep going - which is a personality trait rather than a facet of their belief/non-belief system.
Comment by: TXatheist
26 04/25/06 11:45 AM | Comment Link |Ir,
My brother in law got brain cancer as a kid, 12. he has been cancer free since but chews(chewing tobacco) and I’ve begged for him to try to find a way to quit. I’ve been begging for years. He jokingly says that he won’t get lip/mouth cancer. How is that not refusing medical advice and hoping/praying for god to keep him cancer free? He’s a strict xian.
Comment by: KSG
27 04/25/06 11:48 AM | Comment Link |The whole prayer for healing & having cancer issue hits really close to home for me because both my parents have experienced this… my mom (breast cancer) and dad (prostate cancer), and in both cases they decided to do two things, 1.)prayer and believe God for their healing, and 2.)take advantage of our medical system. In my mom’s situation, she was diagnosed and had surgery within 2 days followed by radiation - that was 8 yrs ago and she has not had any more cancer since then (she regularly gets checked). In my dad’s situation, he was prayed for, miraculously healed, and still has no cancer after 5 or 6 years (he too gets checked regularly).
The Score:
Science = 1.
God = 1.
Prayer = 2.
Comment by: Ir
28 04/25/06 12:04 PM | Comment Link |TXatheist, I’m sorry he won’t listen.
What I’m saying is, he might have just the same attitude if he wasn’t a Christian. People who aren’t Christians do sometimes take risks others would rather they didn’t take. People take risks for all kinds of reasons, not just because they think “God will protect me!”
Comment by: Jayson B.
29 04/25/06 12:39 PM | Comment Link |Cancer can go into remission all by itself. How is that miraculous?
I mean, it’s great that they both went into remission, don’t get me wrong, but what was miraculous about it?
Comment by: Jayson B.
30 04/25/06 12:40 PM | Comment Link |Because many people think that god decided to heal them, and that they are cured. Prayer itself might not be at fault, but the persons beliefs about prayer certainly are.
Comment by: TXatheist
31 04/25/06 12:41 PM | Comment Link |Ir, true but I don’t think I’m immune to cancer. Who knows with all the artificial sweetener I put in my coffee and tea. He listens and his wife is now on my side. I’ve been asking for him to quit for one more additional week during my birthday week as a present from him to me for the last 7 years. This year it will be 8 and even though he can’t quit for 2 months he knows I’ll ask. He’s tried to quit because I ask so I ain’t going to stop asking for that bday present.
Comment by: TXatheist
32 04/25/06 12:42 PM | Comment Link |KSG,
I’m glad they survived. My dad has had cancer twice with chemotherapy and beaten it both times…prayer free:)
Comment by: Jayson B.
33 04/25/06 12:47 PM | Comment Link |Let me pose this question:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a disease disappearing miraculously other than with cancer. At the very least, nearly all cases I’ve heard of contain cancer disappearing.
Is it just coincidence that the one disease that god appears to “cure” the most is the one that naturally can go into remission all by itself?
has god ever cured aids? Cured ebola? Why does god like curing cancer so much? Why should he bother when cancer cures itself in some instances?
Comment by: Julie Marie
34 04/25/06 1:27 PM | Comment Link |Ever hear of the Tuskegee Syphilis study? Some of my elderly black pts from years ago were leery of MDs because of this (from wiki):
This is 40 year clinical study conducted from 1932 to 1972 around Tuskegee, Alabama. 400 poor, mostly illiterate African-American sharecroppers were not treated for their Syphilis in order to study the natural progression of the disease. This was especially scandalous after 1947 when penicillin became available. The study was conducted by the black university Tuskegee Institute and the Center for Disease Control.
What about the Korean scientist who lied about his stem cell lines?
don’t abandon your intellectual rigor just because MDs or scientists are involved.
Comment by: KSG
35 04/25/06 2:31 PM | Comment Link |As far as believing whether or not prayer for healing works or not, I’m done. I believe it works. So I won’t be debating with anyone on whether it works or if it’s just b.s. - go ahead and believe (or don’t believe) whatever you want.
If you want to check out miraculous healings, why don’t you GOOGLE Smith Wigglesworth, or John G Lake, or A.A. Allen, for some oldtimers who were ministers who prayed for the sick and saw healings (many of which were documented), you may even be able to dig up some old news reel footage of A.A. Allen meetings (40’s & 50’s). And if you want to find modern equivalent ministers look up Fresh Fire Ministries (Todd Bentley & crew - they not only believe in miraculous healing, their ministry also gave 20 million in the last 2 years to support widows and orphans). I’m not (neccesarily) endorsing all that these people said (say) or did (do), but am merely pointing you to some research material if you are interested.
As far as my dad’s healing being miraculous (post #29), when you go to the doctor one week and you have cancer (with many test results to prove it) and then you get prayed for on Sunday, and then go back to the doctor the next week for more tests and you don’t have cancer…well, my vote is for a miracle. I don’t think remission happens that fast.
Comment by: Mike C
36 04/25/06 4:54 PM | Comment Link |Hey Eliza,
I don’t know that I’ve ever encountered any miracle that is too incredible to believe. I generally find that whether or not a person believes a particular miracle happened usually has very little to do with the actual evidence for or against the particular occurance, and almost always has to do with that person’s a priori assumptions about whether miracles of any sort can happen in the first place. Whether or not miracles happen is not a scientific question; it is a philosophical question. It’s the kind of thing that depends on one’s prior metaphysical assumptions and lies outside the capabilities of science to prove or disprove.
Thus if one assumes that miracles are impossible, than any account of a miracle is unbelievable, and so of course there must be some other explanation. On the other hand, if one assumes that miracles could possibly happen, then one is free to investigate and determine whether or not a particular miracle claim is credible. There are plenty of claims to miracles that I am equally skeptical about, but I’m also open to the possibility that some may be genuine.
Thus in the case of my friend’s experience, I really have no reason to doubt that a miracle actually occurred since I believe that things like that are possible and I trust his testimony. Could the guy have slipped prosthetics in while my friend wasn’t looking? I suppose so… though I find it unlikely since he was surrounded by a whole group of teenagers praying for him at the time. There is no other reason to doubt what happened unless one is already predisposed to disbelieve in miracles in the first place.
I suppose that is one reason I can’t bring myself to buy into the atheist faith. It just seems so closed minded. Rather than being able to weigh all the evidence, one is required to automatically discount and discredit certain people’s experiences and assume that certain kinds of things just can’t happen. Ironically it seems (to me at least) like the opposite of being “free thinking”.
I guess I prefer to remain open to a wider range of possibilities.
Comment by: Mike C
37 04/25/06 5:10 PM | Comment Link |BTW, why do we have to assume that whenever God heals it must be “miraculously” and that if one is healed through medicine that God had nothing to do with it? Just because a skeptic can come up with a “natural” explanation for why something happened in no way diminishes my confidence that God healed a person. The God I believe in is the God of Nature. Thus I don’t see such a sharp dichotomy between the “natural” and the “supernatural”. It’s all God.
As a Christian I prefer to think in terms of “the way God usually does things” (i.e. “natural” means) and “when God things in a different way than usual” (i.e. “supernatural” means).
And sometimes the miracle is as much in the timing as in the event. Suppose a skeptic came up with a scientific explanation for the parting of the Red Sea (maybe a big wind came up and blew the water back, or maybe an off shore earthquake sucked all the water back temporarily). Wouldn’t it still be as much a miracle that this happened at exactly the right time for Moses and the Isrealites to escape from Egypt? Or take the guy who thinks Jesus actually walked on localized patches of rapidly forming ice, rather than walking on water. Wouldn’t it be just as miraculous for these patches to suddenly form right where Jesus needed them as it would for him to just walk on the water itself?
In other words, natural explanations don’t mean that God wasn’t still involved. God works through “ordinary” means way more often than through extraordinary ones.
Just my opinion…
-Mike
Comment by: TXatheist
38 04/25/06 5:46 PM | Comment Link |Mike C.
That’s the difference. God never does anything whether it be good or bad. I don’t blame god for hurricanes nor give god credit for helping cancer patients. God didn’t do anything because god is not real. That’s how we skeptics understand it and leave all supernatural out of the equation.
Comment by: Mike C
39 04/25/06 7:07 PM | Comment Link |Exactly! Your assumption is that God does not exist, therefore your conclusion is that nothing around you could possibly be evidence of God at work. Your prior assumptions dictate your results. Thank you for illustrating my point so concisely. :)
Comment by: Eliza
40 04/25/06 7:24 PM | Comment Link |As a physician, I want to respond to various comments about medicine from above:
Public health measures are usually considered separate from clinical medicine, and have been responsible for a huge proportion of the success of “modern medicine”. Clean water, toilets and sewage systems, refrigeration and other food preservation measures, childhood vaccinations, injury prevention measures (like seatbelts, occupational hazard reduction) - these and other similar living environment and population measures are all responsible for significant improvements in early mortality. None of these is related directly to religion (though in WA, and perhaps elsewhere, religious objection may be claimed by parent/guardian as a reason to not vaccinate a child). Religious groups and secular groups (eg, Peace Corps) have certainly each brought some of these advances to some underserved areas, eg villages in third world countries.
Well, not all the time, but it does happen. Cruising Pub Med (National Library of Medicine database), I found a paper which estimated this happens anywhere from 1 in 60,000 to 1 in 140,000 diagnosed cases of cancer (or, adult cases? not clear). Certain cancers for which spontaneous regression is most commonly reported: neuroblastoma, renal cell carcinoma, malignant melanoma and lymhomas/leukemias. In fact, neuroblastoma is the 2nd or 3rd most common cancer among children, but so often regresses in infants that several countries have demonstrated that screening infants for the cancer (& treating it when it’s found) results in no improvement in outcome compared with just waiting for cases of this cancer to make themselves apparent. In adults, there’s something called “cancer of unknown primary” in which metastatic disease appears with no clear source - it’s thought that the original cancer spontaneously remitted in some of those cases, but the cells that had already spread didn’t remit.
There’s intense research interest, of course, in figuring out how/why this happens. There are a number of different mechanisms proposed, but bottom line is that most often it’s thought that the immune system goes to bat & kills off the cancer, and/or it outgrows its blood supply & the cells die. Infants are a different situation, much more likely to have cancers of all types remit, maybe all those stem cells and cell differentiation going on. The scientists who study this seem to feel there are very real scientific reasons for remission, but still it strikes everyone as great-but-so-unexpected-it-seems-miraculous when it happens.
As a physician, and a patient, I have to disagree. Alot of people place an unwarranted degree of hope at the altar, as it were, of modern medicine, and “secular medicine” does not try very hard to make clear the limits of alot of what we have to offer and what we really know about the human body (for example, in treating chronic back pain), much less the harm that can come with some of the treatments we offer. Not that there hasn’t been remarkable progress, and some real good, and some real cures. But we hope along with our patients that the benefits are more widespread and durable and unencumbered by drawbacks & kind of ignore the problems - imo.
Comment by: Eliza
41 04/25/06 7:48 PM | Comment Link |Mike C, thanks for your response to my comment above about the eyes (and, your other comments!). I totally agree that remaining open to all possibilities is ideal, for all of us. The best thing I took away from college was to always consider that there might be an explanation I hadn’t already thought of. But that doesn’t take away the responsibility to do some investigation before deciding to go with one particular explanation, especially if that explanation is outside of our daily experience. Which I assume regrowth of eyes is, for you as well as me?
One difference between us is that I have never seen (ie personally experienced) something that I could not explain either by science or fakery. (OK, there are some magic tricks I haven’t figured out, so I’m assuming there’s a trick as there is to every other magic trick I’ve ever heard about - and I’m assisted in that assumption in that the magician on stage is not claiming he’s performing magic, not miracles.) Another difference between us, I suspect, is that I’ve seen several people (patients) with prosthetic eyes - I’ve seen them with their prostheses out, and it’s striking - an empty orbit is not a normal or pretty thing. I’ve seen them with their prostheses in, and it’s striking - you can’t tell (without a flashlight or visual test) which is the “real” eye and which is the “fake” eye.
I regard the likelihood of actual regrowth of two normal, functional eyes (or even any lump of regenerated tissue) to be so vanishingly small that I rank that possibility down at the bottom of list of possible explanations. I’d love to see it happen. I’d only be satisfied with any explanation that I could support with inquiry and data. I’d want to examine the person before the event, watch the event as closely as possible, then examine the person after the event, including doing an ophthalmologic exam with visual acuity testing, pupillary responses, etc - and possibly even a CT scan. In the absence of that opportunity, I offered a scenario which strikes me as quite possible, and more likely than a miracle, though clearly you see it differently (from different expectations about miracles).
Does my approach take the mystery and romance out of it? Sure, but I’m a skeptic & so far miracle has never been an explanation that has never held water for me. (Childbirth is a miracle, but I can explain the basics of human biology behind it.)
Can regeneration happen? Sure, salamanders and newts can regenerate tails, limbs, and even eyes (especially in their larval stage). Mammals are much more limited in their ability to do this - we can regenerate skin to some degree, and liver if it’s not irreparably damaged. Thank stem cells for the miracle of regeneration, cell by cell by cell - not a whole organ in a few minutes.
Comment by: Eliza
42 04/25/06 7:51 PM | Comment Link |Corrections to a few dumb typos in my post #41, for those whose eyes haven’t glazed over or fallen out by this time:
should be “so far miracle has been an explanation that has never held water for me.”
should be “the magician on stage is claiming he’s performing magic, not miracles”
Comment by: Ir
43 04/26/06 6:35 AM | Comment Link |Indeed.
I think those people who have been through some chronic or mysterious illness - either themselves, or their loved ones - have realized the limitations, the unknowns and the fallibility of secular medicine.
It doesn’t surprise me that people fortunate enough not to have had such an experience idealize secular medicine/the medical profession. Who wouldn’t want to think “If I get sick
a) the doctors will know what’s wrong
b)they will have medicine/techniques that cure me”
It amazes me how often a) isn’t even a guarantee. It almost seems like in the majority of cases of people telling me first-hand about an ailment, the doctor didn’t know what’s wrong.
And it’s not because they go to incompetent doctors. It’s because there is still so much we don’t know.
Comment by: Ir
44 04/26/06 7:51 AM | Comment Link |I think it’s a shame that the speaker felt she could do more good by faking something (speaking in tongues) than telling her friend the truth. Why can’t Christians be more honest than that?
But anyway I am familiar with speaking in tongues as it is practiced as a ‘prayer-language’. (It has been a long time, but I did used to speak in tongues)
I don’t see the harm in it as a prayer-language. Who is it hurting? And if people find it helpful - hey who am I to tell them not to do what is helpful? Or what God seems to respond to?
I also think that it is a rather weak argument to make, that because one person pretended to pray in tongues and was not found out, that means ‘no one is actually speaking in tongues’.
Comment by: TXatheist
45 04/26/06 8:04 AM | Comment Link |No Mike thank you. When you look for Santa or elves to get credit making the sun rise then that’s absurd right? You don’t start out with that assumption right? My presumption is the same thing. Explain the event and if god appears in the experiment or data then god gets credit. You wanting god or Santa to be the prime mover or first cause of everything is a bad starting point. You’ve made the assumption with no basis for it to be true other than your bias.
Comment by: Stacy
46 04/26/06 11:41 AM | Comment Link |I go to a Vineyard church in California (actually I work there as well), and recently one of our staff members recently was healed in a dramatic way. She had a large tumor in her jawbone; it had actually made a hole in her jaw. She was going to have a fairly long surgery, which would involve removing the tumor and taking some bone from her leg and grafting it onto her jaw, and would require a special diet for years to not displace the graft.
A week before her surgery she had part of tumor scrapped off for a biopsy. We had prayed for her many times, and that Sunday after the biopsy she received more prayer. When she came in for her pre-op a couple days later they scanned her jaw again, and there was nothing: the tumor and hole were gone. The doctors couldn’t explain it at all, while my coworker yelled “Thank Jesus!” and told him, “Jesus healed me!”
I have actually seen several people be healed, and have been healed myself as well, but this is the best documentation of a healing in my personal experience. I’ve had bizarre illnesses for a long part of my life and while the medical world hasn’t been able to help me much, I’ve always received comfort in the hands of the Lord.
Secular medicine doesn’t lie to people or give false hope? Ever heard, “this won’t hurt, you’ll just feel a little pressure”? =)
Comment by: TXatheist
47 04/26/06 11:50 AM | Comment Link |Did the patient also realize god gave her the tumor or did she do what most xians do and only recognize the good aspects as something from god and the bad are ignored? I wonder how many dead people were praying on 9/11? god sure helped them.
Comment by: Stacy
48 04/26/06 12:11 PM | Comment Link |She assumed that she got the tumor from involving herself in cancer-risky activities as a teen and young adult.
The idea is that we live in a fallen world (post Adam & Eve), a world that isn’t what God had intended for us, a world full of pain and disease. In an accident where a car hits a pedestrian, who is at fault? The pedestrian for not being more aware? The driver for not seeing the pediatrician in time? The car for actually hitting the pedestrian? Or physics for causing two objects to hit each other? In this case, while technically true, it seems ridiculous to blame physics, it just created the rules, it didn’t make them cause harm.
I’m not sure if that’s a useful analogy or not.
Comment by: TXatheist
49 04/26/06 12:34 PM | Comment Link |If god healed her then god gave her the tumor is how I see it. If the tumor was a accident then doctors, medicine and natural human recouperating of the body is another possibility as I see it.
Comment by: Stephan
50 04/26/06 12:42 PM | Comment Link |Tx, I don’t understand your logic here. Why does it follow that if God cures the disease that God also caused it? If a doctor heals you, did the doctor cause your disease? If getting a good night’s sleep heals you, did a good night’s sleep cause the disease?
Comment by: Ir
51 04/26/06 12:49 PM | Comment Link |Stacy, thanks for sharing.
I hope you realized you would encounter some skepticism by sharing what you did among people not all of whom believe in divine healing.
Comment by: Ir
52 04/26/06 12:55 PM | Comment Link |…and, I’m happy for your staff member.
Comment by: TXatheist
53 04/26/06 12:57 PM | Comment Link |Stephan,
I’m ignoring you.(without additional comment)
Comment by: KSG
54 04/26/06 1:45 PM | Comment Link |How hard is it for someone to just acknowledge that something happened that that their belief system can’t explain? We do it all the time when we read a book or see a movie, it’s called “suspended disbelief” - a concept where you temporarily choose to believe what the storyteller is asking you to believe in order to tell the story. As non-diest why don’t you just put your final determination away until a later date. I do it all the time with stuff I read in the Bible (I shelve it for a later date), whether it’s something I don’t understand or something that I currently cannot perform due diligence on at the current time.
So to the non-diests reading & posting… have you ever considered suspending disbelief?
p.s. Stephen - have you done a bio somewhere around here that I missed… I’m curious about you dude.
Comment by: Ir
55 04/26/06 3:41 PM | Comment Link |KSG Stephan has posted some things about himself on the discussion board here.
I also posted a huge long thing about my own change in beliefs on there.
Hey, why aren’t you a member of it yet, KSG??? :)
Comment by: KSG
56 04/26/06 3:58 PM | Comment Link |So sorry, I’ve just been really busy, but I signed up to the DB today. I’ve got a few projects on the go that have to be dealt with and then (hopefully) I’ll have more time to post.
Comment by: Stephan
57 04/26/06 4:00 PM | Comment Link |KSG, sorry I didn’t get right back to you. Work and commuting and family, you know.
Does the fact that TXatheist has decided to ignore me intrigue you? It’s a sordid little tale, and one you’ll find on the message board.
Follow Ir’s link and go over to the message board. There is more there about me than you probably want to know, and the scary part is that I might write more.
Comment by: KSG
58 04/26/06 4:10 PM | Comment Link |Stephan,
Thanks, I’ll try catch up on the DB.
Comment by: Eliza
59 04/26/06 11:04 PM | Comment Link |Hi KSG - hope it’s OK w/ you, I copied your 1st 2 paragraphs in #54 above over to the discussion here under “The Art of Storytelling” - so it wouldn’t get buried & forgotten. Interesting point and question, will ponder.
Comment by: TXatheist
60 04/27/06 7:00 AM | Comment Link |KSG,
Don’t let me ignoring Stephan cause you to think about that for one second. Just let it go. It’s our issue, not yours as I’m sure you can understand.
Comment by: KSG
61 04/27/06 7:43 AM | Comment Link |TX, I’m not interested in involving myself in other peoples issues so not only did I “let it go”, I never picked it up. :)
What’s your thoughts on what I posted in #54 (minus the Stephen part)?
Comment by: TXatheist
62 04/27/06 9:32 AM | Comment Link |If I don’t know something and I want to look into later for clarification or get accurate knowledge I suspend my judgement until later all the time. I’ve never heard the term non-deist before. I only know a very few diests and read Tom Paine’s(a deist by admission) book The Age of Reason and generally agree with them on the god idea because it’s not attached to dogma just the creation of life. In that sense I have no problem using the word god.
Comment by: mommy23angels
63 04/27/06 12:43 PM | Comment Link |To TXatheist - I must be missing something here… I’ve followed Hemant’s blogs very closely and, at times, have had a few moments (between children) to read the commentary that follows. Out of curiosity, why does it bother you so much what we do or don’t believe? It almost seems to make you angry. You seem to be pretty sure of what you DON’T believe - is there anything you DO believe? Is there anything you are really sure of in life, or is everything based on whatever is tangible for you? At first I was going to just leave this alone, but it really strikes me that you are seemingly so vehemently against the idea of God (or god, as you refer to the idea). Am I missing something? Did someone offend you at some point or another, or does the whole idea of Christianity just generally offend you for some reason? It just strikes me as odd that a person would be that bothered over a complete stranger believing something that you choose not to believe. I can see a Christian getting upset or concerned about a non-Christian - in our case, we are concerned about the person’s life after death and where they will spend it, because we believe that our choices and beliefs before death dictate whether or not we will be with God forever. But as an atheist, what do you have to be concerned about? If you don’t believe in life after death, and therefore, you have no reason to be concerned about our soul, then really, what does it matter if we choose to believe in God? Does it really bother you? Why would you want to even attempt to destroy a person’s hope - the thing that gets them up in the morning and keeps them going when life gets tough - when it isn’t hurting you in any way? Is there really something so wrong with believing that there is something or Someone bigger than us out there? Or that that Someone actually cares about and has a hand in the affairs of our day-to-day lives? Are we hurting anyone by believing what we believe? There are those who would say you probably had an experience along the way that embittered you toward God - maybe, maybe not. There are others who would say that you don’t believe in God because then you might have to account for some of the things you do or don’t do, and that you simply don’t want to have to answer to anyone for your actions. We as Christians can come up with reasons for just about anyone’s belief system that doesn’t agree with ours. So often we are completely off the mark, so I don’t even try anymore. So tell me, if you wouldn’t mind - why do you seem to be so against our beliefs, rather than, if you truly don’t believe, just taking a “live and let-live” stance? Since there is no danger to us (or to anyone else) if what we believe turns out to be not true, why does it seem to matter so much to you? (Or does it not matter at all, and I am mis-reading your comments…?)
Comment by: mommy23angels
64 04/27/06 12:50 PM | Comment Link |or is it simply because the nature of this board is to debate…?
Comment by: Ir
65 04/27/06 1:02 PM | Comment Link |mommy23angels maybe I shouldn’t presume to speak for TXatheist but I’m going to hazard a guess that he’d be quite interested in ‘live and let live’ if Christians would give it a go.
Why do you expect him to do what Christians aren’t doing?
Comment by: TXatheist
66 04/27/06 1:13 PM | Comment Link |mommy23,
Are you going over to the discussion board because I’ve got some answers for you. I don’t believe deception and yes it is deception is a good thing.
Comment by: Stacy
67 04/27/06 2:52 PM | Comment Link |Hemant, you wrote:
I’m sorry that you didn’t find our worship more enjoyable, we’re fairly known for it as a movement (Vineyard). We do have many songs that are more in depth and complex, but often we play at least several simple ones so that newcomers and visitors can join in and learn quickly. Also, there’s the idea that worship songs aren’t just songs, they’re basically praise directed to God, and some times all you want to say is something simple, like “I love you”, “You are good”.
Comment by: TXatheist
68 04/27/06 4:29 PM | Comment Link |mommy23,
No? You just wanted to rip into me and run. I’ll add your name to the list of xians doing that.
Comment by: Christa
69 04/27/06 6:24 PM | Comment Link |TXatheist,
but what about the cross - the whole historical story? I’m a bit confused (maybe IR can help too). I’ve never quite understood one thing - don’t atheists admit that their beliefs are just that - beliefs? You can not prove there is a God. You can not prove their is not a God. If a bunch of eyewitnesses say that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead three days later, why don’t you believe them? Isn’t all this talk just simply a matter of who you believe? I mean, if you believe your intelligence is great enough to have enough knowledge of the universe to NOT believe all the people who claim to have seen miracles, etc - isn’t that just simply a Belief in your own ability and judgment over others? This is what really puzzles me about athesism. It’s like people think that they have so much much knowledge of the physical, but ignore all they do NOT know. Unless you were an eyewitness, since humans and science (not the actual factual science, but the attempt to understand it) is bound to be faulty, you can not ever possibly prove scientifically that creation was not the work of a mighty loving God who endowed his first children with the will to choose whom they would believe - Himself or another. So if you do not have the ability to prove or disprove scientifically the work of a loving creator, why can you not admit your lack of knowledge and simply acknowledge that you CHOOSE not to believe?
I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m sorry if it sounds like it, I’ve just never understood that part of atheism. I would really appreciate your response.
Sincerely, Christa (ps - I’ve got two baby girls, so I’m not often online, it may be a few days:))
Comment by: TXatheist
70 04/27/06 7:25 PM | Comment Link |Thank you for asking and not telling me. Thank you for asking me and not telling me how to interpret the bible that is. There are reasons I can’t prove there is not a god. Please accept that answer otherwise I will have to go farther. Why don’t I believe eye witnesses? Good question. I took a forensics biology class and the San Diego police department said the worst type of evidence is eye witness because 12 people have 12 stories and they are 12 different stories. That’s one simple answer. You are right. I choose to not believe in god and what other people believe about god. You are the same way to Muslims right? I am not a muslim either but they have a right to believe or not believe in Allah and I will disagree with them too. I have a picture of the prophet Mohammed with a bomb on his head on my desk at work. I will not be in fear of Muslims or xians for what they label sacred. I guess that’s one atheist’s view of true freedom of speech. I choose not to believe. Congratulations on having two little girls.
Comment by: mommy23angels
71 04/27/06 8:40 PM | Comment Link |TXatheist - I’m sorry that you automatically assumed that I had “ripped into you and then run.” I am a mother of three young children - ages 3, 2 and 10 months, and I can’t sit on the computer all day going from board to board. I get on when I have a free moment, do a few things, and then come back later - my later happens to be almost midnight most of the time. So when you responded to my post, I was probably changing a diaper or putting ice on a boo-boo.
I also don’t know a whole lot about this website, except for having followed Hemant’s story and read his blogs and some of the discussion afterward. I know nothing about a discussion board or anything, but I will be sure to check it out now.
As far as “ripping into you,” I wish you hadn’t taken it that way. I actually thought I was very polite. And I was asking honest questions. Maybe you’ve been “ripped into” often - I don’t know. But that certainly wasn’t my intention, as it isn’t even anywhere near my nature.
At any rate, they were honest questions, and if you would like to answer them, that would be great. I truly do not understand the need of some atheists to try to rip apart Christians’ beliefs, and it is very possible I sounded like I was “ripping into you,” because honestly, I was kind of irked by some of your comments. I have run into it on a constant basis in the education field, and I have been almost attacked for my Christian beliefs on a few occasions. And I am not an in-your-face Christian. I am fairly quiet and reserved and well-liked by most of my co-workers. I don’t think I know anything (quite the contrary, actually), and I don’t push my beliefs on anyone. I have offered prayer to co-workers at times when they were facing tragic or trying situations and have never had the offer turned down. But as far as doing or saying anything that could be construed as my ripping apart anyone else’s disbelief in God, I just don’t do it. And yet, on several occasions, as I said, I have had others try to rip my beliefs to shreds. And I would like to know why.
IR - Does one person’s seemingly inappropriate actions justify it for another person? Christian or atheist? I don’t think it matters. I understand that there are many high-profile “Christians” who try to change the world view of millions in the name of evangelism - and there are also many who are not high-profile who do the same with those around them - neighbors, co-workers, strangers on the street.
As a rule, most Christians are bothered by the disbelief of those they love because they honestly fear for their souls. However, of the four athiests I have personally known, three of them seemed to simply view us as inferior because we believed something they thought was ridiculous. Well honestly, so what? What is it to someone else if what I believe seems ridiculous? Is that a good enough reason to demean another human being? The fourth (who is a friend of mine) doesn’t really care what I believe and doesn’t want to be converted. And that’s ok. I can pray. And that doesn’t bother him either, since he doesn’t figure it will make any difference. We have a ritual. I smile and say I will pray for him. He smiles and says, “You just do that.” No disprespect, no hard feelings. Only appreciation because we have an honest friendship.
I can’t say that I know the best approach to sharing Christ with someone. In my experience, simple friendships, honesty, and mutual respect are most effective. And, outside of the one friend I mentioned, I haven’t seen any more respect on the atheist side of the spectrum than I have seen on the Christian side.
Comment by: mommy23angels
72 04/27/06 10:09 PM | Comment Link |correction - where I said “I don’t think I know anything,” I meant to say, “I don’t think I know everything.”
Comment by: Jonny
73 04/28/06 6:42 AM | Comment Link |Hi Hemant, thanks for this. I’ve loved hearing you thoughts and reactions to all the churches you’ve visited. Interestingly, I’m a member of the church of the pastor you heard speaking, so this feeback was particuarly fascinating to me.
This story stood out:
“The pastor had told a story of how she knew someone who had a spinal cord problem and as people touched the person, the spinal cord immediately realigned.”
- if my thinking is correct - I know this lady and I know this story. Now, I can’t reasure you or give answers to all your concerns, but I can tell you that people in our church are encouraged to see professional doctors, particuarly after a event like this. The condition the lady had was scoliosis, and she had had it for many years. After the event she went to see a doctor, I seem to remember the reaction from the doctors in this case being something like “wow, thats strange” (I haven’t heard of the doctor undertaking any further research - same can be said of other similar situations that have happened to others I know). As an aside, as far as I know this lady didn’t considered herself a christian at the time.
I should add that last night we (myself and some friends) prayed for a friend of ours who currently has scoliosis … and as far as I know nothing happend. Why? I don’t know.
Comment by: TXatheist
74 04/28/06 7:06 AM | Comment Link |mommy23,
Thanks for clarifying you not ripping into me now that I know that wasn’t your intention. I’m fine with religion in your home and church but bringing into public is another thing. ID and creation science are causing havoc in our schools. My sister-in-law is a certified teacher and when I asked her how she’d handle evolution, she said she’d teach both theories. This is a college educated teacher? Yikes. Sorry, ID/creation is not science. I then asked her if some of her students were Hindu then what would she do because their creation story is different. She said she didn’t know they had a creation story and I said that’s the point. There are 1000’s of creation stories but only 1 that is science. I don’t care if she goes to Sunday school and teaches those other 1000, I care that if my kid goes to school and comes home and says god created the world daddy per our science teacher. I care about W. declaring June 10th Jesus day in Texas. Yes, he did. When we asked our current Governor, Rick Perry to also have a day of reason he never responded. Can I have an atheist day as an officially recognized holiday? (Don’t say april 1st!) Keeping your religion out of my public schools and government is why I despise religion, because it keep trying to creep into the public realm. When xians comes to my door to evangelize I converse with them. I have the ability to shut the door on them too but it’s a private matter that way and to date I’ve never turned them away. They always walk away with a puzzled look on their face. I mean come one, how many atheists do these guys run into that will actually listen and talk with them? I don’t think you are inferior but I do not think religion is a positive belief. However, I’m not worried about your soul. I’ll be fine and you’ll be fine. Just don’t share jesus with me when I say no thanks, I’m an atheist. You do realize we atheists understand compassion. When you offer to pray for someone we realize you mean well though prayer has no effect on the outcome. It’s the gesture we appreciate. Why will I try to rip your xian beliefs apart? If you try to share them with me after I said no to them. Then you’ve crossed the line of respect and I no longer see you as respecting my atheism so it’s time to no longer respect your view I need xianity. Honestly, that’s when I don’t hold back.
Comment by: Ir
75 04/28/06 9:46 AM | Comment Link |Jonny, thanks for clarifying that.
The atheists here probably have a few ideas why ;)
Thanks for sharing your comments, Jonny. About the woman who was healed - you said she wasn’t a Christian at the time? Did the healing lead directly to her conversion?
Comment by: Jonny
76 04/28/06 10:09 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Ir.
I’m afraid I can’t really answer your questions - as I don’t know the woman that well. To be honest, “conversion” is not a word I use much, if at all. I see her at church meetings now and then and I see her more regularly at one of the ‘ministries’ for blessing the poor and the marginalized. She is part of our community and I have presumed she is a disciple of Jesus. I’m afraid I can’t tell you how much the healing played a role in that. I certainly see more of her now that I did before.
Comment by: Ir
77 04/28/06 1:08 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Jonny. I just wondered if as best you knew, the healing had had a direct effect on her beliefs. I guess not.
Comment by: mommy23angels
78 04/28/06 9:36 PM | Comment Link |TXatheist - thanks for your answers. I actually have very differing opinions when it comes to our country (imagine that). Maybe tomorrow, as it is midnight and I am exhausted. You might (or might not) be surprised to know that I somewhat agree with you on religion in school. I don’t want someone coming in teaching my kids to be Hindus or believe their teachings any more than you want someone coming in teaching your kids to be Christians or to believe in God. And in relation to that, I also don’t like the idea of school vouchers. I don’t want someone coming into my child’s Christian school telling them they can’t teach my child about God because the school receives government money. Nor do I want them coming into my home where I may be homeschooling my child and tell me what I can or can’t teach because I receive a tax break. I would rather pay taxes for everyone else’s children to go to school and be able teach my children what I think is right. There was a time when government and religion mixed well. This is not one of those times. But I am not a strict separatist, either. I don’t think there is anything wrong with admitting in public that you believe there is a higher power than us that put us here. We will disagree on this. But that is what I think. I also don’t think there is anything wrong with calling Christmas Christmas or putting a nativity on display in a public square. You may argue till you’re blue - and I may do the same - and we will probably never agree on that issue. And I would say that each of us will have points that are as valid as the other’s. And no one will win. But I don’t think the point is to “win” the argument or the disagreement. When it all comes down to it, Christianity is all about Jesus. And you either believe that He is Who He said He is, or you don’t. And obviously I do, and obviously you don’t. Since I’m new here, and haven’t gone back and read a lot yet like Stephan wisely advised, I don’t know much about you. Have you ever actually “met” Jesus? In other words, have you gone back and actually studied his life - what you can find of it from secular historians - and things that you would tend to believe were fact - and come to a conclusion of who or what you thought He is or was? Because really and truly - and you may have heard this regularly - He is the only real issue - at least, as far as this Christian is concerned. Everything else is sort of “fluff,” pardon my irreverence… but it is. None of the political debates or any of the religious and evangelical hoopla and “rights” issues really matter in the long run. The issue is whether or not Jesus is Who He said He is. Regardless of how He is so imperfectly represented by imperfect Christians or those who call themselves Christians - He is who He is - regardless of how He is represented. Just like you are who you are, regardless of whether or not someone misrepresents you. Have you studied and have a particular opinion of who He was or is? If so, how did you come that conclusion?
Comment by: TXatheist
79 05/1/06 7:40 AM | Comment Link |mommy23,I bet Jim would prefer we move this to the discussion board(DB) so I’ll be brief. I don’t remember a time when politics and religion blended well, especially for minority religions. If you want the nativity scene on public property I want this sign from FFRF on there too, gotta be fair. The Foundation annually erects a gilt sign during the month of December reading:
At this season of
The Winter Solstice
May reason prevail.
There are no gods
no devils
no angels
no heaven or hell.
There is only
our natural world.
Religion is but
myth and superstition
that hardens hearts
and enslaves minds.
No, I never met jesus. No one alive has in person. I do appreciate what Thomas Jefferson did and created the Jefferson bible, no supernatural events in that book. There is zero evidence that jesus existed. Josephus works were altered much later by Eusebius. I find no reason to believe Jesus existed but if he gave good moral advice like love the neighbor, just as his predecessor Confucius did then great, that’s good advice. http://www.thegodmovie.com
Comment by: Ir
80 05/1/06 9:07 AM | Comment Link |mommy23angels, TXatheist also posted this comment on your intro thread on the discussion board so please respond there, if you do respond to it. (Or start a new thread, if you like, to discuss any particular issues you’d like to discuss).
For the record, TXatheist has concluded from what he has studied that Jesus never existed. If you want to discuss that please do it on the discussion board - thanks!
Comment by: linda
81 05/12/06 7:02 PM | Comment Link |hi hemant. i started asking God to heal my posture last summer. one day about a month or so later, i went to a healing service and my spine was healed. since junior high i’ve had really poor posture that is quite noticeable. my mom also is quite stooped over and her dad was extremely stooped in his old age where his face was pointing down to the floor. it’s a progressive thing in that the older one is the worse it gets. my posture is now straight after having gone to that service. and a few days after i got healed i asked my aethist neighbor if he noticed anything different about me. he immediately noticed a difference in my posture as i walked across the room. he actually just commented on it again a few days ago with no prompting from me. he’s known me for years and can vouch for my previous bad posture. i don’t think he knows what to make of it.
if you’re interested in dialoging more you can always find me on the message boards over at theooze.com i go by “reflection” there.
Comment by: ?
82 05/24/06 1:26 AM | Comment Link |I would just like to ask you personally a few questions:
Who are you? (Note: I am not asking what you do or your name.)
How do you (an open minded person) know the difference between right (good) and wrong (evil)?
How do you (an open minded person) know that this life per se is real? / Are you living by faith everyday?
If there was no purpose for you to be created — is life meaningless?
Comment by: Ir
83 05/24/06 5:59 AM | Comment Link |I find it ironic that someone named ? is asking “Who are you?” :)
Comment by: Ir
84 06/4/06 4:29 AM | Comment Link |Please post further comments about this review here.