Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 04.25.2006 /
Two days ago I ran into a friend and was telling her how Off-The-Map wants to help Christians be normal. She said with a quizzical look “Shouldn’t you be helping normal people be more Christian?” (My son loved that)
As it turned out, the next day (yesterday) I had a conversation with a Christian - actually a pastor of the church I was going to until about six months ago - which didn’t seem that normal to me.
I had received a card from him on Saturday and had called to ask if I could meet with him to talk about what he’d written. (He wrote partly because he’d just read my story - someone had given him a copy)
The pastor and I talked for over an hour. (I appreciated him taking time to talk with me)
Throughout the time I was telling him I have trouble handling the ‘belief’ part of Christianity as a result of my mental illness (That’s here in ‘my story’). He point-blank didn’t believe me. He said I was just using it as an excuse.
When I said I don’t know what I believe about Jesus he said, “yes, you do know; but you’ve turned away and you’re denying it.”
He said, based on ‘my story’, that I had gone to people who weren’t Christians for approval and acceptance. I said that wasn’t how it was; I said I was looking for it from anyone but it was only the non-Christians who gave it to me when I was ill; vmany Christians were unkind.
I listed some specific ways Christians at that church had been unkind at that time (I don’t think he was a pastor yet). He didn’t comment at all on that – he didn’t even say “I’m sorry” or anything about it. I was surprised because his title is “pastor of caring ministries”. Perhaps also because last year I heard him preach a sermon whose goal was to help Christians be more loving.
He read me Bible passages. One said “see to it that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God”. As best I could tell he thinks that’s what I’m doing.
I asked if he’d read the part of my story where I talk about having doubts about the Bible? He said yes; but he continued to read me Bible passages.
I told him I believed in being nice to people. He said that being nice to people would lead them astray if it wasn’t combined with telling them Jesus is the Son of God. It could lead them to hell.
I talked about Off-The-Map. Maybe I shouldn’t have, because it seemed that whatever I said about it gave him a negative impression.
His tone was cordial, but also one of challenge. I don’t know why – I went there hoping to talk, not debate.
He didn’t say anything personal like “We miss you; we wish you were still coming here”.
I know he was trying to help me and I hope I conveyed to him that I did appreciate that.
So…
Why didn’t I feel helped?
Do you think I might have subverted his helping efforts by, say, not being receptive enough to what he was saying to me?
Is this how normal conversations go?
Comment by: Julie Marie
1Ir,
It would be helpful to know what the card the pastor sent you said; it appears from your post the card’s message set up an expectation that wasn’t realized.
I don’t know how normal conversations with pastors go; I’ve not really ever had one but my mother did, finally, share her hurt and outrage with a priest, and he directly addressed her grievances in a way that validated her. That was a freeing experience for her.
Are you angry about the hurtful behavior of christians who didn’t understand your illness and treated you with ignorant unkindness when you were most vulnerable? Were you hoping that a church authority would validate those feelings? [I suspect you know I believe this, but I don't want to leave it to assumption: you were wronged. you deserve an apology.]
In my personal experience, when I’ve been wronged, I can’t be receptive to much of anything until my hurt has been addressed. Especially if what I am supposed to listen to tells me I’m wrong!
Comment by: Julie Marie
2also, Ir, I must say, I’ve come across few people in my life (okay, only 1: my stepfather) who have so carefully and thoughtfully considered why they believe what they believe. I can only imagine the pastor you spoke with was not prepared for someone who was able to so thoughtfully articulate her position. Your story is soooo not black and white; it demands a willingness to say “I can’t explain this”. Sometimes people (especially authority figures) have a hard time with that; they feel they should have an answer.
Comment by: Stephan
3Ir, I’m sorry you did not feel helped or encouraged by this conversation. I would guess that because you had attended his church he felt a different sense of comfort and obligation in that situation that I would, so his conversation would be different. He might also have been engaging a little “good cop, bad cop” tactic. Assuming he knew you had encountered Christians who were more of the listening and understanding type here, perhaps he wanted to contrast that with a more forceful approach. I’m sure he wasn’t entirely right, but he may not have been entirely wrong, either.
Comment by: TXatheist
4Ir,
I’m offering personal advice from someone who’s been in the xian to atheist transitional phase. You’ve got to get very thick skin, imo. When I told my brother in law, my brother and my grandma I was challenged. None of them were even remotely capable of getting me to come back to xianity because by that time I knew enough about xianity to explain their beliefs to them in a way that made it appear irrational. That didn’t set well but I turned the table on them. They came at me as if I was wrong and I pushed equally as hard back. I can’t tell you what to do obviously but you definitely seem very passive in your tone. That’s fine for most scenarios, but you will have to hold your ground when challenged at times. There is nothing wrong with telling someone xianity is a fairy tale if they are willing say you should be helping normal people be xians. It’s not a good goal to become xian imo and there is no reason to allow such comments to go unchallenged. Why would you want someone to believe in a fairy tale after they are able to comprehend it’s not true? You are only being honest and there is NO SHAME in being honest about god/jesus.
Comment by: Nutrideath
5Hi Ir,
It seems to me that maybe he was viewing that encounter as a battle in the war for your soul. He was in “warrior mode,” and so forgot that he was not talking to the enemy, but to the prize.
I do think that many (too many) conversations do go the way you have described, and so you probably could call that “normal.” But I don’t think he meant to make you feel bad, or worse. He just didn’t quite know how to say, in the same conversation, both what he felt was terribly important and something that was comforting to you.
I have been in that situation myself. Sometimes when I try to have a conversation akin to the one you described I get very nervous because I feel the conversation is so important that I don’t want to screw it up. Yet, my nervousness gets in the way & does exactly that.
That being said, he handled the situation completely wrong - no doubt.
Comment by: David S
6Ir, this is a very common experience in LDS exit stories. I was a bit surprised to read such a similar experience from a “regular” Christian church.
Mormon bishops often don’t believe the reasons people state for having issues with the church and they might take a stab and challenge you with what they think is the real problem (some sin, pride, etc.). They think the church is true and so it can’t be the problem so it must be something with you. It is a threat to them that someone might doubt. Usually this reaction from the leadership pushes the person having problems away even faster. It is especially eye opening to the Mormon having trouble as LDS Bishops are supposed to have help from god to have a decerning eye–it doesn’t take long to see they have no such thing when they go off not listening to you and challenging you about issues that are way off the mark.
Comment by: Winn
7Fundamentalism began in the church last century when some Christians began to take a different view about some of the beliefs that seemed to be core to Christianity. Fundamentalist were the ones who took a more conservative view of these beliefs while those who took a different view became known as Liberals. Over the years Fundamentalism, which had a positive beginning, turned somewhat inward and developed a rather sour attitude that suggested that if one doesn’t believe a “specific” way about beliefs then they are liberal. Their acceptance of people into their ranks has specifically to do with “how or what one believes.” Over several generations fundamentalism changed from a positive conversation to a negative conversation, which is viewed by those inside the system as positive. This way of operating depends on some foundation, which provides the wellspring for belief. The original arguments last century was discussions about the way one interprets Scripture. Fundamentalism became set on a very literal and wooden way of interpreting Scripture, with an error-free Bible as their foundation. Original fundamentalism got lost in the quagmire of a theological system called Dispensationalism in the 70s of last century with leaders like Jerry Farwell, Tim La Hayes, Hal Lindsey, and Pat Robinson and learning institutions like Bob Jones University, Moody Bible Institute, and Dallas Theological Seminary.
If one drew a line from right to left and (traditionally) and put conservatives on the right and liberals on the left (same kind of spectrum we use when talking about politics) the fundamentalist would be at the extreme right, almost “off-the-line.” Therefore, if you set in that position, your goal in life is to move everyone to that position which for him or her is not “off-the-line” but in the center of the line. Everyone to the left of you is liberal. This rational to “argue” folks into a right belief came with the rise of Dispensationalism and it swallowed original fundamentalism producing a religious foundationalism, which was and is a part of modernity. Its first proponent was a trained lawyer. His theological input and style birthed a generation of those who “argue” for the “truth” as they understood it.
All of this is to say that from your short description of your conversation with this pastor, it may yield an observation that the pastor you talked with is one in a long line of fundamentalist who believes that to “help” one is to “convert” one to the “right belief,” i.e., their way of belief. I would not call what you explained as a normal encounter, but under the rubric of fundamentalism is was normal to him. If he were a true fundamentalist, he would have felt guilty leaving the conversation with you without trying to re-convert you to the right way of thinking, as he understands it.
BTW: in my opinion and from all that I have read, fundamentalism is not limited to Christianity. The line mentioned above could conceivably be drawn in atheism also, and would yield fundamentalist atheist and liberal atheist, not only in beliefs but also like their counterpart in Christianity, in attitude as well. There are fundamentalist everywhere.
Just a few thoughts….
Comment by: TXatheist
8David S,
I’ve heard many stories of trying to get your name off the LDS membership list. Did you go through that?
Comment by: Julie Marie
9that has happened to me too Nutrideath. It is an awful feeling! That’s why I quit trying to persuade people. If they want to talk with me about my faith, fine. If they want to diagree, fine. If they want to argue, not fine.
Comment by: Jayson B.
10#1 It bothers me, greatly, that someone took it upon themselves to send him a copy of your story. It wouldn’t surprise me if they sent it to others. yes, I know you posted it on a public site, but you also tried to keep some level of anonymity, and that should have been respected.
to the person who took it upon themselves: that is gossip, and rumor mongering, and you should be ashamed.
#2 This kind of conversation happens all the time Ir. its happened many times in my life: once you ask questions, they try to browbeat you with the bible back into the church.
When I was a child and I went to confession, I told the priest, “I just don’t see a use in believing in god. He tells us to do things that don’t make sense.”
he replied, “does burning in hell for all eternity make sense to you?”
And that is what scared me into being a christian for the next 20 years of my life.
Comment by: Julie Marie
11I hadn’t even thought of that but you are right Jayson. If Ir had wanted to share that with her pastor, she would have done it herself.
Comment by: Lisa
12It is too bad that you walked away feeling unhelped.
From what you describe he did nothing to make you feel welcome in his congregation which would have helped alot I think. For him to assert that your mental health/faith issues are a mask is unfair of him. He may feel he is being very honest and forthright in an effort to corral this lost sheep but this stance failed. If he approached you as a ‘learner’ he would have found out more about you and had possibly a clear understanding.
The fact that you asked to meet with him tells me you were receptive and you wanted to be heard. From what you describe, you weren’t heard.
Comment by: Lisa
13Dr. Winn,
Thank you. I wish you would comment more often. I learn alot when you pop in the room to clarify things.
Atheists- would you feel that a ’strong’ atheist is a fundamentalist?
Comment by: Julie Marie
14what an awful thing to do to a child. :(
Comment by: TXatheist
15Lisa,
No, just as I don’t think a paleontolist/archaeologist is a evolutionary fundamentalist because he declares evolution a fact. Presenting the facts of an idea or the non-facts of an idea doesn’t make one a fundy. I personally don’t like to state that it’s impossible for God to be true and exist. But I’ve done that before and I think many tenured atheists don’t do that.
Comment by: Eliza
16Ir, good for you for trying to make it a conversation. My answer to your question
is a definite no. I was going to couch that with qualifier of how it’s not normal “outside of church” but decided to go for broke and be blunt.
Non-Christian analogy to the interaction you describe: worried parent correcting a child who has just run into the street. That’s not a conversation, it’s a lecture, or correction, or even (from the child’s point of view, perhaps) a diatribe. In that situation, the parent does not acknowledge the child’s emotion, or beliefs, or preferences, or even his/her contribution to the discussion (other than to say “Mommy/Daddy, *sob* I won’t do it again”). It’s very well meant, and in the analogy given the parent really has to step in vigorously for the safety of the child. Which may be how he felt, as others have said.
Conversation 101 includes acknowledging the emotion and the statements of your conversation partner….
Comment by: Lisa
17TXatheist - so, are you saying then that an Atheist is a fundamentalist if they believe “it is impossible for God to be true and exist”?
Just wondering if this is where the line is.
Comment by: Jayson B.
18definition of fundamentalism:
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
Clearly, not atheists.
Comment by: Marty
19Ir - your experience makes me sad and mad.
I was particularly troubled by what this meeting seemed to do for your spirit. I have read with amazement your inputs to this blog and how balanced, insightful, gentle yet strong you are. You are obviously called to help both Atheists and Christians understand how wrong much of their perceptions are of the other - and your life experiences truly give you the background to do that. You have been a mentor to many/most of us. Your inputs have been from a place of inner strength.
Your reporting on this visit seemed to me to be like a 5 year old child reporting on having just had the spirit drained from her by someone who felt he had the abosolute truth and needed to straighten you out - without any regard to listening to you or respecting you. I have always wondered about what these people are really thinking inside their heads. Somehow my sense is that it is very different than what they are saying and comes from a point of insecurity.
So - in this moment, I feel like your big brother who would like to go see this minister and stand him up straight for you.
Please don’t let him get to you. You have so much that you are contributing to the world.
I am sure that you also know that there are lots of great pastors out there that might not agree with being Atheists - but would never put you down or try to invalidate what is so real for you. Jim and Mike have demonstrated that so well.
Comment by: Winn
20Jayson, your comment #13 clearly sounds like a fundmentalist. :-)
Comment by: TXatheist
21Lisa,
Yes, if God is absolutely impossible to exist(true is a vague connotation word) then I’d say that’s fundamentalist in that it’s closing off any possibilities. I don’t think even strong atheists are like that. Generally, the strong atheists say the Christian God defies all logic and understanding as we know it so that God doesn’t exist. I don’t consider myself a strong atheist so I’m doing my best to answer.
Comment by: Jayson B.
22Winn,
Atheists cannot be a fundamentalist. Fundamentalist is a religious term, for religious people. And as much as theists want to make atheism a religion, it simply is not.
why this definition doesn’t fit atheism:
1.) A usually religious movement (right there, nope, not us)
2.) characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles (the only fundamental principle that ahteists carry is don’t murder, steal, or lie, and even those have exceptions to the rules)
3.) and often by intolerance of other views (we’re not intolerant of other views, we don’t try to subjugate others)
4.) opposition to secularism (kinda silly to assume atheists, of whom are secularists, are AGAINST secularism, wouldn’t you say?)
Nothing even the strongest, most raging atheist out there could be considered a fundamentalist. We don’t blindly follow a book of writings, nor do we follow certain leaders. We don’t condemn others on the issues of subjective morality.
We simply are not, and can not, be fundamentalists.
Comment by: David S
23TX, there were some issues for me getting my name off the membership lists. And even after thinking it was done I found out 8 years later that the Bishop had actually buried my request (probably thinking I’d change my mind). At any rate as far as I’m concerned I’m out and that’s what matters. Supposedly it’s really done now but I don’t really care about the bureaucratic workings (or non-workings) of that organization.
Comment by: TXatheist
24Thanks David, that sounds like the typical run-around the Bishops would have done. I looked into the Church :) for about a year though it was from a skeptical standpoint.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
25religious can also mean:
re·li·gious ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljs)
adj.
Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
Also, TXatheist noted in another post (see “why are you particpating…”), what Christians believe is “nonsense and should not be tolerated”
That doesn’t sound very tolerant to me and seems very ‘fundamentalist’in it’s tone.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
26sorry, TX’s comment is #4 in ‘living out the conversation:
Comment by: Jayson B.
27We can play word games all day. I understand that this is a common tactic when trying to interpret the bible, but it still doesn’t change the meaning of the quote above, even IF you use this definition of religious.
I can’t speak for Tx, but when I say things such as this I mean that I will not tolerate people using their religion to affect how I live my life. I think that’s pretty understandable.
No, it sounds extreme in its tone. They are two different things. While fundamentalism is extreme, it doesn’t mean that extreme is fundamentalism.
Just because a>b doesn’t mean b>a.
Comment by: TXatheist
28Lisa,
So saying people rise from the dead should be accepted in scientific communities and it’s wrong for me to say that it is not scientific? It’s wrong to say the earth didn’t come into being as described as in Genesis? Should I be that tolerant to everyone’s belief in how the world works? Are you asking me to interchange being skeptical to falsehoods with allowing them to be spoken as true even if they defy everything we know scientifically? Would that be tolerant?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
29It is cleary atheistic fundamentalism we are discussing here. It seems that atheists resist this term for God only knows what reason in the same way Christian fundamentalists resist it.
Maybe this discussion needs to go to the other room
Comment by: Ir
30Hey everyone (if I may interrupt this discussion of fundamentalism for a moment ;)), thanks for your responses.
Nutrideath (#3) I really appreciated how in your response you were gracious to both me and the pastor - you didn’t take sides. Wow - I’m very impressed. Not many people are able to do that.
I have an update: this morning I e-mailed the pastor the link to this blog entry. He read it and he e-mailed me a response. I don’t want to post private correspondence without permission, but I would like to give you a general idea what he said.
He said yes, he was challenging my beliefs; that was the purpose of the meeting. But he also said he was sorry he didn’t say they missed me and he asked my forgiveness for not expressing sympathy about the unkindnesses I’d experienced.
Comment by: David S
31Ir, it’s raw to say but this pastor is trying to dominate you–he’s putting you back in your place as a submissive sheep. You are under God, the Bible, the church, and him–you have no place making the statements you make. Most people when challenged will accept that they’ve started to walk out where they shouldn’t be and they will submit back and it ends there. And that’s fine. Most will be happy in their place in the church community. But once you see beyond that and have your own presence of mind to not submit to what others tell you of god, you’re already out.
However there’s not another community to fall in place with that will tell you what to do and how you’re supposed to think. You’re either comfortable standing on your own and making your own decisions about god or you’ll eventually be back in a church (and that’s ok). The notion that people leave religion “for approval and acceptance” of atheists is laughable. Religions offer community, non-belief really doesn’t. You might get some support from others that also left their belief, but they have no alternative belief or community to offer–all they can do is tell you to stand on your own and think for yourself. It’s difficult to leave a community to stand alone for what you yourself have decided (and be derided for it the entire time). But once you can do it, once you can stand on your own and not care what everyone else says or believes, it’s tough to go back.
Comment by: TXatheist
32Lisa,
I’ll post over at the DB but what fundamental belief have I established? Which one is unchangeable and that I can say won’t ever change in my set of beliefs? That’s the difference between xians and atheists and why it’s not reasonable to say we are fundamentalists in our beliefs as opposed to the vast majority of xians.
Ir,
May I suggest he never tell someone who has left xianity that there is a living god. It’s not a concept that helps. You could also tell him that you now are looking into jesus never existing and see if that helps him understand. If he thinks that’s absurd you’re working with a fundy.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
33If someone wants to continue the conversation about Atheists as fundamentalists in the discussion board area, go for it!
regarding Ir’s original post:
I think it is interesting that the pastors strategy in dealing with Ir’s absence was to lambbaste her with scripture. Why do people think this method should work. (many christians probably just clear their conscience, as Dr. Winn notes, by showing due diligence.) Atheists do it too: it’s just not scripture. I call it conversion by concussion.
Comment by: Jayson B.
34I’ll start the discussion.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
35thanks Jayson,
I can’t join until tonight. Have fun!
Comment by: David S
36Ir, I just read your update. If you want support from the pastor… if you care what he thinks… if you want support period… you’ll be better as a Christian in a supportive church (and again there’s nothing wrong with that).
One thing that should be obvious from reading the various atheists on here is they don’t care what a pastor says or what a book says or what anyone else says. They follow what they think and don’t give the reigns of their soul over to the control of other people or books. If you’re that way then you simply won’t be comfortable in a church and it will cause you pain. If a church fits you, then it fits and there’s no pain and no question. You’re really the only one who knows what works for you.
Comment by: Winn
37Jayson,
Your argument is noted. But, in my opinion, you are arguing like a fundamentalist.
BTW: you wrote:
would you add to the list you provided a foundational principle that atheist believe is that their is no God, hence the word a-theist.
What’s interesting to me is that I wrote with a simile and suggesting that you sounded like a fundamentalist. That’s far different from saying that you are a fundamentalist. I don’t know you, so how could I possibly know that. In response you seem to have decided to argue that atheist cannot “fundamentalist.”
I believe you believe what you believe, I just simply believe something different that you believe. If what you believe is what you believe, it’s what you believe. To argue your belief as the only way to believe about being fundamentalist, in my opinion, is a mark of sounding like a fundamentalist, even if you are an atheist. Surely, your comments are not made to try and convince me that I am wrong.
With Jim, I think we might move back to what Ir questioned in her original post above.
I think normal is often defined as an absolute term. But, the baggage we bring to the word shades the meaning in any given context. So for Ir’s conversation she wondered if what the pastor was doing was normal. As I stated in Comment #5 above was that what he was doing was normal to him because of the “life luggage” he brought along with him. Of course, it’s not like Ir didn’t bring any luggage along with her to the same event. We are privy to an interpretation to one side of the conversation. But, that is all that she can do. She couldn’t possibly provide his thinking on the event. So what may have been normal for him was abnormal for her and what was normal for her may have been abnormal for him. Both, were possibly playing with a different set of “conversational” rules.
She asked “why didn’t I feel helped.” Ir, did you have a presupposition of what help would feel like when you met?
Ir your worte:
Do you think I might have subverted his helping efforts by, say, not being receptive enough to what he was saying to me?
Do you think that “being receptive” has something to do with his position as pastor. Is this a question of who has authority?
I think I have written an Ir size comment. :-)
Ir, thanks for the update from your pastor.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
38Ir, I’m glad the pastor apologized. Did that change anything for you?
Comment by: Nutrideath
39Why quote scripture in this case, or one like it? Good question.
I do because no matter who you are or what your beliefs the Bible carries much more weight than anything I could say on my own.
Even if you don’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God, you have to admit it has really caused a stir - for a looooong time now too. You cannot say that about anything I say on my own.
Plus, I myself trust the Bible. So, I naturally look to it for the answers to my own questions, and then offer those answers to others who have the same questions. I know some don’t then accept the source, but its the first thing I reach for.
Also, maybe in this case I would hope to show Ir something in the Bible that maybe she had never noticed before. Something that would make a difference.
Comment by: TXatheist
40Lisa W,
If you can’t join then stop until then, please. But where has this happened?
Lisa said ”
Comment by: Ir
41Good point David - I see what you’re saying; in theory, being in a church community provides a structure for support. Atheists have to go find their own support.
In practice, the support I’ve received through Christian community has usually been of limited value because it’s so conditioned on things like me not being ill (how can I guarantee that?) and me behaving and believing in a way which doesn’t work for me now. I used to be better at the belief part; I was never proficient at the behaving part ;)
I want support (who doesn’t?), but I want the support of peers, not people who think they have some sort of God-given authority over me.
I’m not willing to give over control any more - and I don’t anticipate that changing.
I appreciate your ability to see that for people who don’t mind doing that, the inherent support structure [theoretically] provided by Christian community could be a strong draw.
Comment by: TXatheist
42Nutrideath,
That’s the difference in our views. The bible is a horrible book for the most part and if someone uses it with me it only makes me think they are not logical. They are trying to use a very faulted book to help make their case imo. It’s not that don’t believe the bible is the word of god, it’s just a book and nothing more. I do agree it’s caused a stir:) Once you realize the bible is like that there is nothing in it that will help the theist to make a non-xian see the light, imo
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
43TX- it’s a general idea that when people of any belief system repeatedly say basically the same thing over and over again it becomes consussive in nature. Not very efficatious is all I’m saying.
Comment by: David S
44Nutrideath’s above post shows my point. He submits to the men that wrote the bible. He’s comfortable with their authority over him and perhaps would not be comfortable on his own without that.
Comment by: Ir
45Lisa wrote:
It was reassuring because before yesterday I had thought of him as a pretty decent, caring person and so his lack of empathy yesterday rather threw me and made me wonder if I’d been wrong about him. Which wasn’t a happy thought.
When I got the e-mail response it restored my confidence that maybe I wasn’t wrong about him - that he is decent and caring. I’m happier thinking that.
Oh, and I was pleased because I felt he really ‘listened’ when he read my blog entry. I didn’t have a strong sense yesterday that he was listening to me. It was more like he had things he wanted to share and his agenda was not to get significantly derailed from that. And most of what he had to share seemed to end in a Bible passages, most of which to me right now are just “blah blah blah”, to be honest.
Comment by: TXatheist
46But atheist’s don’t do that. If so I need an example cause we are only defending various points but we don’t have a standard answer like, god did it versus god didn’t do it.
Comment by: Ir
47Winn wrote:
Good point.
In this case my question “Why don’t I feel helped?” wasn’t in reference to me presupposing I’d find help, but rather my assumption that he was trying to be helpful.
For what it’s worth, I try not to have presuppositions but it generally turns out that I do anyway.
I think he approached the meeting thinking he was in spiritual authority over me. I was hoping to have a conversation with a peer. Perhaps I was unrealistic.
No comment ;)
You’re welcome. From my point of view it’s very relevant because it’s a continuation of the interaction we had yesterday.
Comment by: Jayson B.
48Just because you used simile winn doesn’t excuse you. Don’t get passive aggressive on me.
Taken in the context of the discussion, it’s obvious what you meant.
I say “atheists can’t be fundamentalists,”
and you reply with “you sound like one.”
is there another way for me to interpret that? Should I have just been appreciative of the simile?
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
49Re: fundamentalism…yada, yada, yada.
Re: the question at hand, Ir, the pastor should be ashamed of himself, IMO, but is almost certainly clueless. Dr. Winn gave a great explanation of where this mindset came from. But the point is, it is an extreme and it is not “normal” unless you circumscribe your sample to include only fundies.
AS it happens, I have made a mission of building friendships, relationships, with people who been trashed, one way or another, by churches or sometimes life in general. I do it because no one needs friends more than someone who’s just gone through a public trashing or whose circumstances limit their relational opportunities. And everyone needs friends. (And the fun part for me is that I get new friends in the process. ;-) ) My list includes pastors thrown out of ministry for sexual indiscretions, homosexuals who’ve needed financial counsel, husbands struggling with their own history of unfaithfulness, as well as a bunch of other people struggling through other less dramatic issues.
The point is, I cannot even imagine talking to someone in circumstances like yours the way you report him doing. More importantly, I can’t imagine Jesus doing it. When you look at Jesus interactions with the social outcasts, His pattern was always grace, gentleness, love, compassion, relational. His contemporaries criticized Him for precisely this point. “Doesn’t He know who that is, he’s a tax-collector.” “Doesn’t He know what kind of person she is?” As a matter of fact, yes He did know. And He said it was precisely for these folks He came.
So I would say that pastor dropped the ball BIG time. Were I in your shoes, I don’t think I’d have chucked God over, but I certainly would have chucked that church over.
Which raises a question. Many, if not most, of the atheists here have church backgrounds. I’m wondering if they have come out of more fundamentalist, legalistic, behaviorally conservative backgrounds, or are they from across the spectrum? because, in my entire christian life, I have never, for example, even had it implied that questioning my faith was a bad thing. In fact, it is even encouraged. Interesting….
Comment by: Ir
50Ok, I have permission to post the pastor’s own words from the e-mail he sent me this morning, after reading this blog entry…
Here’s the e-mail I just got giving me permission:
Comment by: TXatheist
51He’s a fundy imo. Christ didn’t forgive me for anything but someone who can’t pull away from the bible even in an apology is too narrow-minded in his thinking. That blood he speaks about is why America has too many fundy’s, they don’t realize it’s just myth and not literal.
Comment by: David S
52Heh, come on TX, that’s not helpful. You’re just gonna start another side topic.
Comment by: TXatheist
53David S,
Point taken but how do you respond to someone with bible text when you explain that doesn’t work for you anymore? It’s like a xian coming to me for my view as an atheist and I say it won’t help because all xians are too stupid to understand real logic anyway. (note, I do not believe that in the slightest but I’m merely making a point)
Comment by: Winn
54Yes, Jayson, take a simile as a simile and don’t make it literal. This is a trait that some Christians have when they literalize Scripture, not allowing for the figures of speech that are there, a trait that you and others might not enjoy in conversation with them.
Second, don’t assume from a brief statement that you can analyze me. Maybe I just sound link I am passive aggressive to you. :-).
Ir, cute three point sermon in paragraph #2 in your comment #43 with a Scripture quote, out of context, to boot. But, again in the sub-system of Christianity he is in, this is normal.
TXatheist, it’s those kind of small comments that sounds like “fundamentalism.” I glad to see however, that it is only “your opinion.”
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
55TX. no it wouldn’t.
a similar situation would be if someone who currently is turning away from atheism has a conversation with you (a fervent Atheist) and you hammer away at that person explaining to them why they should still support Atheism.
You would use words like Myth, nonsense, evidence, proof, falacy, things like that which would make the person go blah,blah,blah in their head.
Comment by: TXatheist
56I’ll use big comments then so I never get labeled a fundamentalist then:) I just think too many people deny themselves as fundamentalist because they don’t want to imagine they are that close minded to xianity being nothing more than a myth. None of xianity is my opinion, it’s all just myth but some people do have an opinion that it’s not just myth.
Comment by: Ir
57Winn - thank you for your careful contextual explanation of ‘normal’ in your comments on this entry.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
58I think you used the word MYTH, 3 times!
You just kill me TXatheist.
And I’m too hyped-up on caffine right now and may spontaneously combust under the pressure of this line of thinking. See you guys later!
Comment by: Julie Marie
59My suggestion would be to realize it was meant to be helpful (even if it did not succeed), appreciate their desire to protect me (even if I don’t need it), accept the expression of caring in the spirit it was probably intended, and let it go.
Women deal with paternalism quite a bit, in and out of church. To confront its every occurance would create a life oriented to battle and that is not how I want to spend my precious time on earth.
Comment by: TXatheist
60I’ve never hammered away like that but I’ve also never met anyone going in the atheist to xian direction. Siamang has said something like wear the Deist hat and I know what he means. I’ve learned to meet halfway with Deists in their use of the word god. If someone was an atheist and forgot what proof,evidence, myth, and fallacy meant I wouldn’t bother keep talking to them.
Tom,
I’ve investigated Methodist, Lutheran, Mormonism, JW, Catholic, Ethical Society and now UU. It’s the god thing that I can’t agree with let alone Jesus now that I understand he never existed at all.
Comment by: TXatheist
61Lisa,
I’m getting a cup of coffee too then:0 What does the word myth mean to YOU? It’s almost like you think Joseph Campbell and his works on mythology are not true? Sorry, mithra and jesus are both M-th.
Comment by: David S
62TX, I get complaints that I speak too much in absolutes and yet sometimes you can make me seem wishy-washy by comparison.
Consider who your audience is. If your audience dismisses your comments as diatribe you’re merely wasting your time. Notice Lisa’s “blah, blah, blah” comment in 55. Sometimes you can hit harder by hitting softer. I like your simplicity and straightforward approach though.
Comment by: Jayson B.
63Ok, no problem, I’ll appreciate your simile that wasn’t very poetic, funny, or useful.
If that isn’t what you meant winn, then what exactly was the purpose in writing it? What was your intent when saying that I sounded LIKE a fundamentalist? You’re saying that I’m wrong in my interpretation, but then you won’t offer up an explanation.
odd.
Comment by: Westy
64I know you keep repeating this, I suppose to provoke a reaction. But is this a typical atheist viewpoint?
I was honestly not aware of anyone who ascribes to this viewpoint until I heard of the fellow in Italy who is suing his local priest.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
65TX - see: Westy says you repeat yourself too:
We all know your position but you keep repeating it!! It’s crazy making! It feels like a hammer. It feels concussive. I dare you to stop for the rest of the week.
Comment by: TXatheist
66Gee Lisa, you double dare me. I’ll tell you what I won’t say myth if you don’t say god, til Saturday.
Westy,
Reaction? Or more of a realization. That the church has covered this up for so long and people should know they are being misled that Jesus actually existed. I don’t know how many people do but I can ask over at American atheists. I’ll see what they say for us and post on the DB.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
67TX: nope, I dare you to not state your position ie: the quote above.
Me, not say G-d? easy.
Comment by: Winn
68Jayson,
Sounds like a fundamentalist, meant sounds like a fundamentalist. It did not mean that I though you were a fundamentalist. I don’t know you, so that would be an absurd thing to say without knowing you. It’s okay that for you it wasn’t “poetic, funny, or useful!” The statement had a simile in it but the statement “sounds like a fundamentalist” should be taken literally. Clearly you don’t think you are a fundamentalist seemingly because you don’t believe an atheist can be a fundamentalist. While not knowing if you are a fundamentalist or not, I do believe that atheist can be fundamentalist if one doesn’t take too narrow a view, a mark of fundamentalism, of the word fundamentalist.
Comment by: TXatheist
69Lisa,
So I get one set of restrictions(not saying Jc is a m-th or imply that) and yours are easy to break? g-d excuses you from that commitment?
Comment by: TXatheist
70Winn,
If Jason is open to being in error on his religious views how is that being a fundy? Someone that doesn’t realize their god is just as fictional as Mithra is a fundy but how is Jayson doing anything similar to that?
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
71TX- I’m daring you to not state your position.
You are daring me to not say g-d.
Dare accepted. Ok?
Comment by: Nutrideath
72TX, how about just the restriction of not repeating oneself? I’ll bet Lisa would agree to that one too, just to be fair.
Whaddayasay?
Comment by: TXatheist
73Lisa,
nope. not enough sacrifice on your side. I already give too much with regards to religion:)
Nutrideath,
I’ll not repeat Jesus is a m-th if you/Lisa won’t say god exists and the bible is the word of god. See how far you want me to go? It’s the same thing to me.
Comment by: TXatheist
74Winn, are you a medical doctor? Did you earn a phd in something? What? I’m curious.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
75TX - we’re just asking you to not repeat yourself. That is apparently very difficult for you. This Blog requires fresh commentary. Bring it on!
Comment by: Nutrideath
76No, no TX. If you (or anyone else here) were to stop saying what you think, then what would be left to say?
I was just talking about our repeating ourselves.
(did I miss a couple of “y’s” in the above sentence? … :) )
Comment by: TXatheist
77With regards to god/jesus being a myth? That’s not repitition, that’s being honest. Is that what you asking me not repeat. If that’s it that is difficult to not be honest.
Comment by: Jayson B.
78Ok, I’ll bite. You merely were pointing out that I sounded like a fundamentalist, not that I was a fundamentalist. it was no different than pointing out that the sky is blue, you were merely stating fact.
Since you wrote this in response to me stating that an atheist can’t be a fundamentalist, and since you’re stating that you didn’t mean that atheists CAN be fundamentalists, I can only assume that you agree with me.
Because, I never implied that you called me a fundie.
let’s read on.
Ok, yes, I took it literally. But being literal doesn’t mean there isn’t connotation to it. You’re saying that you didn’t mean that I was a fundamentalist, even though it was in direct response to me saying that atheists can’t be fundamentalists.
Let do some word play shall we? And for the sake of the argument, I will use a debate that clearly is false (that black men can’t be racist)
Let’s assume I’m black (I’m not)
Me: “black men can’t be racist”
You: “you sound like a racist.”
So, in that scenario, am I to assume you’re merely using simile, not implying that I’m a racist? I’m taking your words literally, that you think I sound like a racist. But what would be the point of writing that if you weren’t implying the OPPOSITE of my position?
Because we can’t be. I think the definition is kinda clear on that. Being against myself (secularism) would be kinda difficult wouldn’t you say?
ah! Wait a minute, you weren’t implying that *I* was a fundamentalist, you were implying that atheists can be fundamentalists.
Except, I never addressed you calling me a fundie! I addressed you directly about athiests being fundie, even after YOU stated that I sounded like one!
My goodness, it appears your backtracking has fallen apart. Would you care to refine your statements?
You’re right, because fundamentalists are those with religious beliefs, and they have strict interpretations of their holy texts.
But the dictionary isn’t a holy book.
this is the most absurd argument I’ve had in a while. I can’t believe I even took your bait.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
79somebody shoot me.
I’m going to find Friendly Atheist/Eliza and go have a margarita.
Comment by: David S
80Get me one Lisa.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
81blended or on the rocks?
Ir - can I get you anything? You’re the one who really deserves one! My treat.
Comment by: TXatheist
82Lisa,
Good bye, don’t let the door hit you where Darwin split ya? Really, if you can’t articulate a point better than childish frustration don’t get bent out of shape.
Comment by: NCxian
83Great, got here just in time for drinks!
Ir, sorry about your thread :(
Comment by: Ir
84NCxian - it’s ok.
Lisa, see what they have with no sugar, sugar substitutes, caffeine or alcohol in. Yeah, water - that sounds good :)
Comment by: TXatheist
85Ir,
My apologies too. I would have strayed on track if we could all go to dictionary.com and see that some are fundamentalist by definition despite the internal frustration that label may imply.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
86In an attempt to get back on track:
Julie Marie said,
Ir, would it have made much of a difference if you had met with a female leader?
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
87water with a twist - on the way.
Comment by: TXatheist
88I’ve found females to generally be less argumentative on many things. I have one female friend who disagrees with me a lot of times. I go to her to hear the other side because honestly she is the one female I know that will dispute points with me. She’s conservative, W supporter, war supporter, xian, and pro-Texas. I think women are more passive and less argumentative.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
89And THAT, friends and neighbors, is why Cs and As don’t understand each other. They don’t WANT* to understand each other. And who can blame them?
* “Want” being defined as, “doing whatever it takes (including setting aside ego).”
Comment by: TXatheist
90Tom,
Do you want to understand why John Spong is trying to bring xianity out of the 1st century and into the 21st century with regards to supernatural ideas found in the bible? Please don’t ignore this question.
Comment by: skikid
91Ir~
Did the e-mail from the pastor resolve anything for you? I obviously dont know him but it still seemed like he really wasnt hearing what you had to say. To echo Lisa do you think gender could have played a role here?
Comment by: skikid
92TX
BTW I picked up a book by Spong (Why Christainity Must Change or Die) about a month ago b/c you brought it up here… he is a very intersting fellow to say the least. Very thought provking so thanks for briniging it up :)
Comment by: Julie Marie
93I’d call that maternal smothering and I’d deal with it the same way — accept it in the manner intended, and move on.
Comment by: NCxian
94Ir: Doesn’t TX just make you want to come back over to our side? (Life is a giant game of Red Rover, you know! ;)
Comment by: Julie Marie
95well, we don’t have as much testosterone to deal with. evolutionally speaking, you males needed it to go out and kill the mastadons.
Comment by: TXatheist
96Ir,
If you go back to xianity leave your brain, you won’t need it. NCxian is proof of that.:)
Westy,
#64. I asked the jesus question on American atheists blog and 4 people responded. All 4 said jesus didn’t exist as a real person.
Comment by: TXatheist
97skikid,
You’re welcome and I really do appreciate Spong for his efforts. If he was the typical xian I think the US would be much farther advanced intellectually and scientifically.
Comment by: Winn
98TXatheist,
I have two earn doctorates. The specification is: Doctor of Ministry. It is a professional degree. I received the first one in 1984 and the second on I just finished and am graduating this weekend.
BTW Jayson, if you took some bait somewhere it wasn’t me that put it out. Argument, and here I thought we were having a conversation. Argument is another trait of a fundamentalist mindset, so if you are not a fundamentalist atheist, and I’m clearly not saying that you are, then why are you arguing for a point of view that you “sound like a fundamentalist?”
Ir, sorry about being off track on your post. Point in case, in my opinion, one thinks there is an argument going on and another thinks a conversation is going on. This is most likely normal to in both cases.
Comment by: Jayson B.
99Well, this explains a lot. i can definately see why you think all atheists are fundamentalists, because we use arguments!
By the way, the definition of an argument:
A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood
A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.
Dr. Winn, did you know that an argument is the basis of logic? I’m sure you did, since I’m sure they teach logic and reasoning at the schools you’ve attended. Or do they?
And when I go read the definition of a fundamentalist, I don’t see anything about arguments being part of the criteria. My, are we adding things just so that way you can be right?
Fundamentalists don’t argue, because they don’t debate. Their beliefs aren’t open to debate.
Atheists are ALL ABOUT debate. After all, its the very thing that led us to atheism to begin with.
Stop patronizing me, I’d be embarrassed if I was a Dr. Minister who patronized people. You know what you said, don’t twist my words, because I made it very clear:
People who claim they have phd’s in ministry sound like people who don’t know how to use logic.
See, I used a simile there. I wasn’t talking about *you* of course.
Comment by: Winn
100If you feel patronized its because you are choosing to feel that way. That is really illogical to me. In my opinion, you simply have a narrow-minded view of what constitutes a fundamentalist and to believe that fundamentalist don’t debate demonstrates, again in my opinion, a narrow-experience with fundamentalists.
BTW: Reading and quoting a definition about fundamentalist does not necessarily mean that ones knows what a fundamentalist is. In addition to reading a definition, meeting hundreds of fundamentalist and talking with them would get you a better go at understanding what a fundamentalist is. Of course, you may have this experience, but if you do, what you have written today, in my opinion, does not portray such experience.
Comment by: TXatheist
101Tom,
Do you always avoid questions or just the ones you don’t like to answer because they will make you realize that you too haven’t budged? Come on. You’ve basically said that you think xianity is truth or to that effect when watching the first video of Jim’s wife. Tom, has your brother Rick or someone close like him ever told you that you don’t have a hold of truth because xianity is not true as you see it?
Comment by: TXatheist
102Winn,
What has Jayson stayed close-minded about? That atheists can’t be fundamentalists? You do realize fundamentalist is a religious term right? It’s like saying I”m a Jesus atheist. i believe jesus is god but I don’t believe in god. It’s contradictory at the very basic level. How and specifically how can an atheist be a fundamentalist?
Comment by: Marty
103This thread started out as a very profound, interesting and important sharing by Ir and subsequent dialogue. After learning that Ir had shared the thread with her Pastor and then got his permission and shared his apology - I found myself wanting to invite her Pastor to join the dialogue - feeling that we could learn from him and hopefully there might be something that he might find worthy of consideration from so many thoughtful people on this board - both Atheist and Christian. I was hoping that he would find this board a safe place to let down fascades and be real with one another. That he would find us respectful of one another - bringing out the best in each other.
Then the thread went off topic and drastically deteriorated. The tone shifted and rather than learning from each other in a dialogue - people chose sides and have been bludgeoning each other with their perspectives. Even those who normally would have been a part of stopping this and moving it to the debate section of the discussion board - got frustrated and enterred the frey. People brought out the worst in each other.
I found myself wishing there was a moderator that would delete off topic posts - or at least move them over to the debate area. Like Jim - I have no interest in such a form of communications (or lack of same.)
TxAthiest - you indicated the following reason for being on this board:
I fully understand and honor that position and like almost all on this board support you in that position. Although I am Christian (at least by my definition) - I feel very much the same way you do - but mine is getting the Conservative Christians (starting with my Mom) to get off my case and accept me as I am.
But TxAthiest - how is your repetive blasting of those who take even a normal Christian position working toward accomplishing your objective? It is a shame that this approach takes so much away from the deeper wisdom and thought that you have shared in so many areas. It seems like so many times when the thread is moving toward great learning from both sides - you come in with one of these blasts - and any movement toward understanding and learning comes to a screeching halt. I know that you will respond by very politely asking for examples - but I have learned that that is not truly a seeking of learning - but one of your ways of perpetuating the debate. If you re-read what some of the others have told you in this thread - you will have your examples.
Comment by: Lisa Wellington
104Thank you marty,
And thank you to anyone who will take anymore conversation regarding Atheist/Fundamentalism to the DB where someone started a conversation. (I can’t see it from this computer)
I agree, this was not our finest hour.
Comment by: Ir
105My experience with female Christian leaders is that they can be every bit as dogmatic and unempathetic as male ones. In that particular church they don’t have women pastors so that wouldn’t have been an option.
Oh, here’s an interesting footnote to talking with the pastor yesterday, though - on the way out I chatted a little bit with the woman at the front desk, who I used to work with in the nursery, so I know her somewhat. Talking with her was the opposite of the talk I just had. She asked if I was going to another church and I said no, I was taking a break - that I needed to; and she nodded empathetically. Then I told her a bit about Off-The-Map and instead of her saying skeptical things she said something like “neat”. So that was a very connected friendly conversation as opposed to the disconnected one I’d just had.
skikid, have a look at my answer to Lisa, #45 - she pretty much asked me the same question about the e-mail.
I don’t think gender was an issue. I think role is - I am finding that pastors seem to interact with me quite differently from my friends. Which is interesting - not in a good way though.
This is the fifth pastor from my ex-church that I’ve said anything about my ‘doubts’ to. I haven’t said the same thing to each one but nevertheless it has given me some opportunity to notice whether there are any ‘patterns’ in how pastors respond compared with friends.
Comment by: Ir
106Thanks Marty.
I did invite the pastor to comment here when I e-mailed him the link to this blog entry. Evidently he preferred to respond to me by e-mail rather than post here.
He e-mailed me before the comments got off-topic - so that wasn’t his reason for not jumping in. However, it seems likely to me that visitors who see a comments section has got way off-topic are likely to be put off posting. I think if we want to get new interesting people to jump in we will have more success attracting them if we can stay more on-topic.
Comment by: Jayson B.
107You know what’s funny “dr.” winn? That comment right there is the epitome of patronizing. Talk about a bad habit.
You’re right. Let’s just stop using defnitions of words altogether, because they get in the way. Let’s make up our own!
There is a difference between being narrow minded, and being CLEAR. Bridges, by definition, span a space. That’s what they are. You can’t start proclaiming that because bridges are clearly defined that I”m being narrow minded.
You also can’t change the definition of a word to fit your own purpose just so that way you can try and use the negative connotation against me.
I can’t be a nazi atheist, because nazi’s are christians, by DEFINITION. You can’t call me narrow minded because I’m using what the word means!
next thing you’re going to tell me is that creation is a science.
Do you know what a debate is? Do you know that debate is completely counterproductive to a fundamentalist? Sermons aren’t debates. Religious zealots do not debate. Literally interpreting religious scripture is not debate. Wanting to attack and oppress opposing viewpoints BY DEFINITION IS NOT DEBATE.
I can understand why you want to call atheists fundamentalists, because it makes us easier to attack. Atheists need to be blamed for as much as possible in our society so that way you can throw your hands up in the air and say “our society is falling apart!”
Just because you want it to be, doesn’t make it true.
And intentionally misinterpreting and hazing over the actual definition doesn’t change it.
by the way, my major in college was in anthropology and sociology, and I focused on early american christian cults.
now THAT I’ve done. I’ve been around christian fundamentalists my entire life, and I know droves of islamic fundamentalists.
But I know you’ve been around fundamentalists your entire life, because you sound like one.
Don’t villify other atheists and I. We have done NOTHING to you but ask that we live our lives. I take calling us fundamentalists as an insult, because I equate fundamentalism with ignorance, a lack of reason, a lack of logic, and a lack of debate.
For someone who knows a lot about fundamentalists, it sure sounds like you don’t have an iota of a clue about atheists.
go pick up a dictionary or an encyclopedia, rather than your bible.
We’ve had passionate debates on this site, but I respect everyone on this board. Something about you just smells like hatred.
I used another simile. Can’t fault me if you don’t like it!
Comment by: Eliza
108I tell ya, I go to work and totally miss the maragarita run. Where’s the justice in that? ;)
Ir, have you seen patterns in how the 5 pastors you’ve spoken with have responded compared with each other, and compared with friends? (And is 5 pastors alot for one church? It seems like it to me, but what do I know…)
My guess is that it wouldn’t go over well for you or us to suggest a book for a pastor to read, but let’s just play with the idea….
Do you think any pastors who approach straying lambs in the manner you described might read some of the books people have suggested on this site and in the discussion board, for example John Shelby Spong’s books (eg Why Christianity Must Change or Die), or When Bad Christians Happen to Good People by Dave Burchett? (Any others anyone might suggest?)
Or would books like that just seem like “blah blah blah” to people in a pastoral position in most churches?
Comment by: TXatheist
109Marty,
This is where it got off topic, fundamentalism and I was answering a question. I already answered directly to Ir before this happened.
Now some could have left the questions for atheists alone but when Jayson and I said there is no such thing or it’s not logical for an atheist to be a fundy then the backlash started. Sorry, but if you are going to defend fundamentalism with me you got your work cut out for you. Am I supposed to not say god/jesus/the bible are myth? Is that wrong? And Marty was is normal xian perspective? Sorry, but I’ve recognized the various types of beliefs but some basic common ones are fundamental beliefs according to definition. Seriously, if you want your mom to get off your back tell her the truth. I’ll give you a hint, it’s not trying to justify god/the bible or jesus, that’ s being like her. She takes a bad book and tries to spin it so it’s logical. You’ve got a faulty starting point just like her so you’ll get no where. Actually she’s on more solid ground as the bible is written to be the word of god and trying to free a book like that is working backwards. You have to understand it was written 2000 years ago plus and that’s where it belongs, in that era, not ours. Please feel free to discuss but I’ve gone back and read the posts. A question to atheists was stated and I merely explained the view. Don’t ask questions if you don’t want honest answers.
Comment by: Ir
110Yeah really. Didn’t anyone ever tell you life isn’t fair? ;)
It depends on the size of the church.
Patterns - I guess the only thing that applied to all of them was the ‘role inequality’ in interactions with them. If we were talking it tended to be them telling me things and not being interested to hear what I had to say, because - they were the pastor; they had the answers.
That they were the pastor and I was the flock manifested in different ways but it was always present to some extent.
My friends have talked to me as equals and they have tried to listen although they don’t always understand.
The pastors at churches like the ones I went to have already dismissed them as heresy. No need to read them. In their view, authors like Spong are leading people astray and leading them to hell: they are ‘false teachers’ and not enough bad things can be said about them.
Comment by: RickLintx
111Hmmm…let me try again.
TX wrote
Tom, has your brother Rick or someone close like him ever told you that you don’t have a hold of truth because xianity is not true as you see it?
Hold the phone, TX. Did I say that christianity is not true? If that was your impression then let me be clear. I affirm the truth of all the basics of christian faith as expressed in the Apostles’ creed. My brother and I are in unison on that point. And to those who would say that this characterizes either of us as fundamentalists only demonstrates a profoundly limited understanding of what fundamentalism is - a caricature understanding that may seem useful as a tool in debate, but lacking in substance or accuracy.
Comment by: Ir
112Jayson, I should clarify something. First, I have posted a copy of it on my website and that’s probably where the person who gave it to the pastor got it from. I’m not anonymous on my website.
So, while I appreciate your indignation on my behalf, I don’t think it was inappropriate that the person gave it to the pastor. In fact I’m glad in a way if people tell each other about my change in belief; it’s that many less people for me to have to tell.
Comment by: Ir
113Going all the way to the top of the comments, #1 and #2 by Julie Marie:
I think his approach was fairly faithful to the card, actually. In it he said the book of Hebrews could lead me back to faith and quoted some verses.
I’m glad.
I’ve mentioned that I’ve had some sort of interaction with 5 pastors now. The second one worked very well in the sense of, he was reassuring, not condemning. I was still at church at that time and probably understated my issues compared to what I told #4 and #5, who both responded to me with ‘challenge’ and ‘warning’. I don’t know how #2 would have gone had the circumstances been the same.
In the third interaction that pastor did apologize, to his credit.
I’ve tried to forgive everyone; I don’t go around thinking about it all the time.
I didn’t go yesterday seeking an apology - it was more that I was shocked when the subject came up and he said nothing at all. But if you read comment #50 you’ll see he did apologize to me in an e-mail this morning.
I haven’t had the luxury of being able to wait for that - I have had to learn to let go whether it’s addressed or not. Some I’m sure will never be addressed and never be apologized for.
Thanks; however, he had read my story so he was aware of how I articulate it.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. He was extremely black-and-white about belief/non-belief. He basically didn’t seem to admit “I don’t know” as a position; he seems to see it as identical with “I don’t believe”.
To me it so clearly is different. I mean, “I don’t know whether it’s going to rain” is NOT the same as “I don’t believe it’s going to rain”.
Oh well.
Comment by: Julie Marie
114I understand this too. I was not talking about forgiveness; I was talking about the process of reconciliation. It seems that the pastors goal was reconciliation. My point was, even if you still held your beliefs, his approach wasn’t an effective way to reach that goal.
Forgiveness can be unilateral, and in most cases, it must be. Reconcilation takes two. (or more…)
Comment by: TXatheist
115RickinTX,
You missed my point. My point was this. Has someone close to Tom, you in particular, ever told Tom that Tom’s view on xianity are not necessarily the truth of xianity? I’m not sayinig you aren’t xian or you think xianity is false. I’m saying the narrow scope Tom has is that his views are right and most accurate. As far as you and fundamentalist comment, I’m going to ignore it out of respect for Lisa W.
Comment by: Ir
116Thanks, TX.
Reminder to everyone: please take any further discussion of fundamentalism to the discussion board rather than posting it in this comments section.
Fundamentalism Discussion
Comment by: Ir
117Julie Marie - well said on the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
118TX, just so that there won’t be any misunderstanding, I am ignoring your question. As I have noted numerous times, I am here, first and foremost, to learn. As such, I am not interested in spending time or effort in conversation with those who’ve demonstrated a lack of ability to teach. If I want a harrangue I have lots of choices IRL.
Ir, going back to your question, I suspect that there is an esoteric course in seminary, taught under oaths of secrecy, that enables pastors, merely by virtue of putting their collars on backwards, to lose touch with us common folk. ;-)
I’ve been fortunate, through Rick, to have gotten to know some exceptional guys who are both ministers and real, down-to-earth people. But, tellingly perhaps, I’ve only encountered 1 or 2 in 50+ years of attending church.
For me, personally, it re-emphasizes why the Bible places its focus on the people, the Body, as the Chruch, not on the hierarchical, eccleciastical leadership.
So sorry for the way you were failed in your recent contacts.
Comment by: TXatheist
119Tom,
You could have merely stated you weren’t answering me but you had to add the comment about your learning. I have nothing but the utmost respect now for Michael Newdow and your displeasure for him. When he wins the court case I will me smiling and thinking of you in utter frustration. Have a great day.
Comment by: Ir
120It sure can seem that way sometimes :)
Seriously, I think the real problem is that seminaries lack training in interpersonal relationships. That’s all I can conclude from my experiences, anyway. If it was up to me I’d mandate learning how to listen and be empathetic for going into the ministry - because if a person has the title ‘pastor’ people are going to have expectations that that person can listen and give affirming supportive answers when appropriate.
It’s helped me a lot to remember that no matter what their title is they are all human beings and human beings all have weaknesses, faults and issues.
I can’t help noticing that the weaknesses do seem to lie in the area of interpersonal relationships sometimes - so it seems to me, anyway.
Yes but - leaders are role-models and how are the people supposed to figure out that they are to be empathetic and good listeners if their leaders aren’t?
Thanks for caring.
Comment by: Love is the most excellent way · A pastor tries to help me
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