Jim wants to know: Is Ir an atheist?

Comment by: Karen

There are various definitions for the word “atheist.” While it basically means “One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods,” there are different strains of atheistic philosophy. “Weak atheists” or “nontheists” simply lack belief in god(s) while “strong atheists” assert that no god(s) exist. Then there are agnostics, who aren’t sure and won’t commit one way or the other. :-)

So, you first have to figure out how you’re defining the term “atheist.” It’s like Christianity, except there are a lot fewer variations on the term.

In my case, acknowledging that I am an atheist was something that happened after a long and often quite painful but ultimately liberating journey. (For an absolutely marvelous take on that journey, see Julia Sweeney’s one-woman show, “Letting Go Of God,” http://www.juliasweeney.com/welcome.asp)

It’s certainly not a term I was ready to use a few months after I stopped attending church. At this point you may decide that “agnostic” or “nontheist” or “nonreligious” actually applies better to you. And, you may or may not eventually come to the realization that you just don’t believe, and … you’re an atheist after all, gosh darn it. :-)

Why do we feel this reluctance to apply the term to ourselves?

I submit that it has nothing to do with holy spirits or other supernatural influence, and everything to do with the fact that atheists have been vilified throughout history, and continue to be widely hated and feared today. Just take a look at these passages from the Bible:

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God”

“He that believeth not shall be damned”

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made … so that they are without excuse … that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God … and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools…. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.”

Pretty strong stuff, and I have no doubt that the Q’uran says much worse. So, the reluctance is completely understandable. Especially from someone coming from long years of religious participation. I don’t know if it’s easier for those who were raised without any religious belief, but I suspect it must be.

Comment by: TXatheist

I’d say Ir is a searching agnostic. It takes a great leap of intellectual determination to label oneself an atheist. I’ve tried to nail down Ir and as she can find the good in the bible I definitely find her searching for answers. In that she doesn’t come right out and admit god is just a myth I label her agnostic. However, it’s up to her but that’s how I see her.

Comment by: Ir

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, Karen.

It’s certainly not a term I was ready to use a few months after I stopped attending church. At this point you may decide that “agnostic” or “nontheist” or “nonreligious” actually applies better to you. And, you may or may not eventually come to the realization that you just don’t believe, and … you’re an atheist after all, gosh darn it. :)

Interesting…I did only stop going to church about six months ago.

I submit that it has nothing to do with holy spirits or other supernatural influence, and everything to do with the fact that atheists have been vilified throughout history, and continue to be widely hated and feared today.

I feel like while I know the truth about atheists and know they can be wonderful people, I also know how non-atheists can react to the label ‘atheist’.

That could be a factor.

Comment by: Ir

TXatheist wrote: I’ve tried to nail down Ir

heh heh :)

Thanks for your comments, TX.

Comment by: Lisa W.

I don’t think Jim was trying to label you.
He was wondering, I bet, if you were clear about considering yourself an Atheist as it seems you’re not. (clear)
As far as labeling goes, I rather like:
High Agnostic/Christian Priestess, and parttime mental health specialist. :-)

Comment by: NCxian

There was a discussion I read a few years ago that offered me a model for spiritual growth and identity that I have been trying on since then. The book was called The Shaping of Things to Come, and it’s by Frost and Hirsch. They talked about centered and bounded sets. They said that the traditional model for the church (and thus, “Christian”) is a bounded set, whereas we might better think of it as a centered set. (You mathmeticians chime in here if I’m way off on the terms).

The example they used was from ranching in Australia. Apparently in Austalia, the ranches are so huge that they can’t be fenced. So instead, the rancher will sink a well. Water is hard to come by, so their cows stay where they are supposed to be because they want to be near the center. The old church has been like a group of people fenced in (a bounded set)–your inside the fence or outside the fence. Evangelism has been about getting people to come over to the Christian side of the fence.

It would be better for the church (not “a” church, but Christendom) to be like a well. There is no “in” or “out”. Either the well offers you water and you come toward it, or it offers you nothing and you move away from it.

So that is a long explanation to say that, I agree with the folks in this thread who are suggesting that our old labels are not generally useful. I think what we want from each other on this blog, and in life, is to help each other, and to receive help, in moving toward the center–”truth”– however it is our contexts cause us to express that.

Based on what I understand about you, Ir, I think you are moving in a positive direction toward truth. I hope you have found our comments to helpful in that regard, as I have found yours to be for me.

Comment by: Marty

Ir - it seems to me that you and Jim are far closer in how you see and process the world and what is important to the two of you - and the objectivity and openness that each of you face the world - than you may be with many Atheists and Jim might be with many Christians. If I think about who I would like to have along side me in processing the world - the two of you would be at the top of my list - and I have the same (very high) respect for both of you.

I must admit, that I have been thinking about you and wondering how you would have reacted to Spong last night. If he had lead your Bible study - I wouldn’t be surprised if you would be choosing another label.

Comment by: Lisa W.

marty said:

it seems to me that you and Jim are far closer in how you see and process the world and what is important to the two of you - and the objectivity and openness that each of you face the world - than you may be with many Atheists and Jim might be with many Christians.

Very insightful, Marty!

Comment by: Marty

Ir - I just read through the communion thread - and particularly Jim’s comments.

Did you ask Jim if he was an Atheist? :-)

Just kidding.

Comment by: Julie Marie

Well, Ir, Christians are told to examine the fruit. What you have repeatedly shown on this blog is genuine concern for others, a humble response to questioning, a desire for peace and fairness….hmmm, I don’t care what you call yourself. Under any label you display humanity in a very good light, and I am glad to “know” you.

Comment by: TXatheist

Ir,
After reading this list of compliments which you deserve I have to wonder what you passionately protest. I mean church/state separation and ID in schools causes me to go to school boards and state level board of education meetings to protest these as well as continuously write my elected officials about faith-based funding problems. Do you have a protest issue that you are passionate about?

Comment by: Beth

I have seen more kindness, honesty and reality in Ir than in most of the Cs (or Atheists) I have ever met. I am happy to say I will try and follow Irs example (but I will fail)

I will say that I agree. I have known her online for a couple of years. She definitely is a genuine and caring person.

But…if she is anything like me, such accolade might make her feel uncomfortable. It’s hard to live up to high praise when you, yourself see your flaws. So I hope my praise does not upset her. Anyway, out of anyone online and whom I have spoken to, I hope to be a kind, intelligent, logical, and genuine as she. She definitely is an example to strive to immulate.:)
(no, I promise that I am not hero worshipping;))

Ir~ if this bothers you, I’m sorry.

Comment by: Jim Henderson

Lisa/Winn

Can you please get the italics turned off before we all lose our eyesight

Comment by: Ir

NCxian wrote: Based on what I understand about you, Ir, I think you are moving in a positive direction toward truth. I hope you have found our comments to helpful in that regard, as I have found yours to be for me.

Thanks, NCxian.

Everything is helpful as long as I stay in a state where I’m open to learning. So - yes, thanks, they have been.

Comment by: Ir

Lisa wrote: I don’t think Jim was trying to label you.

I know; I was just teasing him :)

He was wondering, I bet, if you were clear about considering yourself an Atheist as it seems you’re not. (clear)

Really he was just curious. And curiosity is something I understand very well. :)

As far as labeling goes, I rather like:
High Agnostic/Christian Priestess, and parttime mental health specialist. :)

Sure - why not? :)

Comment by: Ir

Marty wrote: Ir - it seems to me that you and Jim are far closer in how you see and process the world and what is important to the two of you - and the objectivity and openness that each of you face the world - than you may be with many Atheists and Jim might be with many Christians. If I think about who I would like to have along side me in processing the world - the two of you would be at the top of my list - and I have the same (very high) respect for both of you.

Thanks Marty.

I must admit, that I have been thinking about you and wondering how you would have reacted to Spong last night. If he had lead your Bible study - I wouldn’t be surprised if you would be choosing another label.

I can tell you how I felt when I read his book about Christianity for a New World - I felt like hey, I like this guy’s vision for a better world!

Comment by: Rorgg

Well, agnostic and atheist describe two different concepts. Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge, and atheism is a statement of belief. They often (but not always) overlap in the same person, and for practical purposes, both serve as vague identification so you have options on how to identify.

Some people in that situation identify as atheist. Those who identify as agnostic generally are honestly undecided on their belief, or want to avoid the stigma attached to “atheist.” Not that I blame them, but it’s lead to the opinion of some atheists that *anyone* calling themselves agnostic is either an equivocator or lacks the courage of their convictions.

I identify as agnostic for two reasons. First, I honestly do waver in my belief — atheism and deism. Second and more importantly, I find the belief ultimately unimportant. Either way precludes an interactive deity, and if one exists, its wishes are unknown. The effect on my actions and life is equivalent.

Comment by: Ir

Jim wrote: from a Christian perspective I am just as reluctant to “own my Christianity” as an atheist might feel about owning their atheism.

I appreciate your honesty.

Maybe it isnt about being an A or a C but simply the fear all people have of “being themselves” of the rejection we face when we wander outside the ROAA (I love that Ir).

I’m glad you liked that.

I have seen more kindness, honesty and reality in Ir than in most of the Cs (or Atheists) I have ever met. I am happy to say I will try and follow Irs example (but I will fail)

Thanks Jim.

Maybe I should have you talk to my husband and children to find out what I’m really like ;). Sometimes it’s easier to be nice to ’strangers’ than those you live with day in and day out.

Anyway, I find it helpful to have people who, while I know they have faults and issues, because everyone does, ‘point the way’ for me. If I have helped ‘point the way’ for you, you also have helped ‘point the way’ for me, so, thank you (with all my heart) for doing that.

Comment by: Ir

Julie Marie wrote: Well, Ir, Christians are told to examine the fruit. What you have repeatedly shown on this blog is genuine concern for others, a humble response to questioning, a desire for peace and fairness….hmmm, I don’t care what you call yourself. Under any label you display humanity in a very good light, and I am glad to “know” you.

Thanks Julie Marie.

One of the ironies of my situation (I would say) is that I have removed the possibility of belief distracting me from the importance of fruit.

I can now see that I used to be in continual internal conflict over belief vs fruit.

One interesting thing about Off-The-Map is: I’ve read about ‘OA’s here and when I first came here the last thing I wanted to think about was evangelism. But this week I realized, hey, I used to be the poster child for OAs. That when I’m feeling ok about myself I go around intentionally OAing people. I look the checkout person in the eye and I say something friendly to him/her intentionally. (He/she is a human being, not just a robot checking out my groceries. How I interact with him/her actually matters. I had noticed how many people go around, unsmiling and pre-occupied, I didn’t want to be one of those. This week I realized I had slipped back to that; I’d got very derailed from my ‘OA’ intentions. Well, I’m back on track now. And glad to be there! (Except, the pastor said it will lead people to hell if I OA them without telling them about Jesus - which is all I can do given my current state of belief. Oh well ;))

Comment by: Ir

skikid wrote: Ir and Jim

You are both so open and honest. It seems almost effortless for you both to be so honest about who you are and what you believe with strangers and then on top of that you are able to accept people who passionately disagree with you. Is this something that ‘comes naturally’ or is it a skill you both have developed? Do either of you have any trade secrets you would care to share? At any rate I admire respect you both.

Jim wrote: Ir I would like to hear your responses to this first

skikid, first just to say, I get angry and I unfairly judge people sometimes, so whatever I say - consider it to be my ‘goal’ rather than something I achieve 100% of the time.

According to the Bible Jesus when he was on the cross prayed “Father forgive them because they don’t know what they are doing”. It has greatly helped me to remember that in almost all/all cases when people hurt me, they ‘don’t know what they’re doing’ and what I mean by that is - few to none of them think “Ok, my plan today is to be as unkind to Ir as possible. How can I achieve that?” It’s more like - well, think of a cornered animal. Wary and defensive, if you approach the animal it is likely to see you as a threat and hiss and scratch and try to bite you. That’s a survival mechanism - that’s all. Everyone is trying to emotionally survive and some people feel so emotionally cornered that they literally are unable to consider how their words and actions are affecting others. They are unable to interpret various things other people do as other than a ‘threat’ to them. If you are dying of thirst it’s hard to be generous and share half of the last cup of water with another person.

Happy people are generous; people who are unhappy can’t afford to be. They aren’t being ‘mean’ on purpose; they’re just trying to get through the day. They truly ‘don’t know what they are doing’.

Now having said that - adults in theory should be capable of getting past the ‘all I can do is protect my own survival’ mentality. Professional counselors are engaged in trying to help people do that and hopefully they do, to some extent. People can work on it themselves to the extent they become aware of it.

Jesus was so generous he touched lepers (he could have contracted leprosy) he was nice to outcasts (bringing disapproval upon himself - so he was not clinging to approval from others to ensure his own emotional survival) and far from scratching and biting when he was cornered, he stayed generous and said “Father forgive them - they don’t know what they’re doing”.

Please note that I think Jesus was showing us that you can be that generous and it works out; I don’t think he was saying that we all are supposed to be. I think he was saying ‘be intentional and trust that being generous can work’ not, ‘throw your lives away’. We need to make our own choices about how to be generous. People sometimes unfortunately miscontrue Jesus’ extreme example and forget that they matter as well as other people.

Oooh I just remembered one of my ‘illness’ insights about Jesus. I wondered if maybe God set the world running and watched what would happen. Some people didn’t do so well; others did pretty well. When Jesus came along he really got God’s attention - WOW! God was so impressed he said “Hey, you are doing a better job of this than I can! I’m stepping down and giving my job to you instead”.

Anyway - churches, for all their teaching, are not good (in my experience) at addressing such basic issues about human beings as these. Which means that church might be full of people who are emotionally cornered and who might try to scratch and bite you if you do anything which causes them to feel threatened.

Hey this could have been another whole blog entry, I guess…

Ok Jim, Over to you! Top that if you can (heh heh) :) (Hey, it was your idea that I go first…)

Comment by: Julie Marie

Except, the pastor said it will lead people to hell if I OA them without telling them about Jesus

my aren’t you the powerful one, able to lead people to hell? Arrrrrggggghhhhhhh

Comment by: Julie Marie

oh - and leading them there by being genuinely concerned about them. OA them into hell. My goodness, Ir, its positively diabolical.

Comment by: NCxian

Ir, you said:

Please note that I think Jesus was showing us that you can be that generous and it works out; I don’t think he was saying that we all are supposed to be. I think he was saying ‘be intentional and trust that being generous can work’ not, ‘throw your lives away’. We need to make our own choices about how to be generous. People sometimes unfortunately miscontrue Jesus’ extreme example and forget that they matter as well as other people.

That interests me, because I guess I see Jesus saying “throw your life away”. (Sorry I have no Biblical references to give; I’m more of a Jesus-movie person myself). What is an example of a person who misconstrues Jesus’ example and forgets that they themselves matter? Does it have to do with meeting other people’s expectations (unlike Jesus, who you point out “was not clinging to approval from others to ensure his own emotional survival”)?

On another thread Stephan and David S. were agreeing that if Christians were broke, humble and selfless like Jesus, nobody could have any complaints against them. (Of course, “broke” requires a lot of thought!) Is this related to your thinking?

Comment by: TXatheist

Ir,
If I may say I understand. You’re passionate about your health. I can completely relate. I use to get very, very angry. (Yes, people, you haven’t seen squat with me retaliating like I use to). I’ve learned to get better at it because of places like this. I now discuss things and when I hear absurd religious comments I don’t hardly even react, I let it go, but on here I get to go back and forth so it helps me to keep pushing my patience level with people. Thanks Ir and I humbly wish you a peaceful and compassionate journey.

Comment by: Ir

Txatheist wrote: Ir,
If I may say I understand. You’re passionate about your health.

Good point! I hadn’t thought of it that way. Yes, I am.

I can completely relate. I use to get very, very angry. (Yes, people, you haven’t seen squat with me retaliating like I use to).

I believe you - I have encountered much more out-of-control atheists than you.

I’ve learned to get better at it because of places like this. I now discuss things and when I hear absurd religious comments I don’t hardly even react, I let it go, but on here I get to go back and forth so it helps me to keep pushing my patience level with people. Thanks Ir and I humbly wish you a peaceful and compassionate journey.

Thanks TX.

I figured you would understand. It’s too bad that pastor on Monday evidently didn’t.

Comment by: Eliza

NCxian said: The old church has been like a group of people fenced in (a bounded set)—your inside the fence or outside the fence. Evangelism has been about getting people to come over to the Christian side of the fence.

It would be better for the church (not “a” church, but Christendom) to be like a well. There is no “in” or “out”. Either the well offers you water and you come toward it, or it offers you nothing and you move away from it.

NCxian - thank you for sharing that analogy. I like it. And I picture some people remaining right at the edge of the well to drink often and deeply, & not let it out of their site, whereas others might spend most of the day farther away, munching grass and coming back once in a while for a sip of water.

Comment by: NCxian

Ir: I think the philosophy of nonviolent resistance as taught by Jesus, Gandhi and King included resistance to the death. Which they all did. But I imagine you are right, King did not know when or where he was going to die, just that he was willingly risking death. Short of dying, they all committed their lives to a life-consuming passiongwhich they felt led to by their spirituality/religion. I bet all their families occasionally told them they were throwing away their lives!

I don’t mean to be quibbling. Just musing!

Comment by: skikid

NCxian~

I dont think that one can live out a life-consuming passion unless one takes care of ones self… what I mean is that if you dont I suspect that a person would get burnt out and quit… I would be interested to know how people like King and Gandhi took care of themselves, what little tricks they had up their sleeves.

Ir~
Thanks for the great comments, some times you make more sense than any pastor or speaker I have ever heard.

Comment by: NCxian

I dont think that one can live out a life-consuming passion unless one takes care of ones self… what I mean is that if you dont I suspect that a person would get burnt out and quit

Oh sure, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. I was just thinking about the many places in the Gospels where Jesus doesn’t seem to take anything less than all of somebody. It’s a tension that I am left with if I opt to be a disciple and use his life as a model. It’s hard to know how that translates to any individual’s life 2000 years later.

Absolutely, selflessness vs. taking care of oneself is a tightrope walk (as any parent of small kids knows!) I don’t know about King and Ghanhi, but there are lots of places in the Jesus-movie where he says, “come on, let’s get out of here” when the demands got too great!

Comment by: Ir

Jim wrote: Why I follow Ir

She loves people specifically. - How many of you have gone back and read her brief comments addressed just to you

Thanks Jim.

The neat thing is that you will pay enough attention not to follow me anywhere stupid - because I do sometimes go stupid places!

I learned to do the ’specific responding’ when I was a discussion group leader in a worldwide Bible study organization. The leader training has some awesome aspects to it, believe it or not. The leader over us would actually ‘rate’ us on our responses to people during the discussion group time (she visited the group from time to time and would talk to us about how we facilitated it privately later).

We were encouraged to respond specifically and personally. The only thing I didn’t like about that was ‘that was a great answer’ was not considered a particularly good response and I don’t know why. Oh, I guess I do. It’s because they didn’t want us value-judging answers; they wanted everyone to contribute no matter whether their answer might be ‘great’ or not. I guess that was consistent with their goals - fair enough.

Comment by: Tom in Sacramento

Okay, Ir, now for something completely different. You’ve gotten some great compliements here, btw, and I concur with all of them. But as I was reading a thought struck me that, perhaps there is an entirely different explanation for the wonderful combination of characteristics you’ve displayed here. I would not offer this as a diagnosis, more as a question for you to ponder.

I have gathered that your Christian background was from a segment of Christendom that I would characterize as very conservative and very “bound up”. I see hints of this in your own descriptions, and it just shouts to me in the pastor’s interaction and response.

You know that Jesus said, “I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” And He said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” And you’ve talked about how the lack of compassionate response from Christians figured in your questioning process.

What if??? What if God, in His love for you, wanted you to experience that freedom, that full and abundant life? What if He recognized that you weren’t going to experience it in those (restricting) confines? What could He do that would bring you to the point of kicking that over? that would bring you to the point of engaging your mind to examine the assumptions of that world?

I guess part of the reason this occurs was that, as a result of a bunch of crap going on IRL, I woke up really mad at God this morning. And I was telling Him how, frankly, I didn’t trust Him with these issues. (Even after 50 years I sometimes act more like a petulant teenager than a thoughtful adult. ;-) ) And the result of that was that I gained some clarity on some attitudes relevan to the junk going on as well as to my relationship with God.

I don’t know if it applies at all. But the thought occurred so I thought I’d throw it up against the wall.

And, BTW, I don’t particularly care about labels. They are more often used for ill than for good. I’m just glad to have made your acquaintence.

Comment by: Ir

Tom wrote: BTW, one thing I’ve wondered about since I realized you weren’t a “he” is, how you pronounce “Ir”? Is it “Ire” as in Irene or “ur”? Because “ire” really doesn’t suit you. ;)

You don’t think so, huh? Maybe not on the outside… ;)

I guess in my head I say it as I,R - 2 syllables, and as I recall that’s how Jim says it too.

There isn’t really a ‘correct’ pronounciation since I made it up as a written thing, not in sounds in my head.

How did you pronounce it when you thought I was a “he”? :)

Comment by: Julie Marie

you are ur to me :)

Comment by: Ir

Julie Marie wrote: you are ur to me :)

Like I said, there is no ‘right’ way to pronounce Ir, so that sounds fine to me :)

Comment by: Marty

This has been such an amazing thread. It shows how we are capable of bringing out the best in one another - and the best in each of us is mighty good - and it doesn’t matter what your label is. I shows how we can be when there is a safe place to be really real. Particular thanx to Jim and Ir. I don’t think that I have ever read or heard a more touching appreciation of another person than Jim’s comments about Ir, nor Ir’s response to Jim.

Jim - are we all still invited to Seattle for a lovefest - and what are the dates?

Comment by: Ir

Thanks for your comments, Marty.

Regarding the conference - my children are both going to be in a district orchestra festival (in the Chicago area) on Nov 4, so I have an unavoidable conflict, unfortunately.

I can’t say I know I could figure out the logistics involved in me going if it weren’t for that - but it certainly sounds interesting and I know I would enjoy being with some of the people who will be there.