Posted by Eliza on: 05.09.2006 /
We’ve talked about Christians and atheists here wanting to MTWABP (Make The World A Better Place), including helping people in need. On the Discussion Board, someone mentioned that the task of helping people in need seems to fall to Christians more than others. I think reasons include: Christians are much more organized, helping people is part of the raison d’etre of Christians as people and groups, and doing good deeds as a church or group links the effort with a name and identity that doing good deeds individually or informally doesn’t. I brought up some examples of secular groups in Seattle that work with people in need, including drug treatment centers.
But it got me to thinking. Besides an afterlife, Christianity (and other religions) can offer people powerful hope during this life. Atheism/agnosticism doesn’t have a way to offer that (though individually atheists may feel quite positive and hopeful about life). We have touched a little here on 12-step groups, Alcoholics Anonymous and others, which use acceptance of a higher power as the basis for making difficult life changes. (Atheists tend to see this acceptance as indistinguishable from belief in God.)
I was reminded of these musing on Saturday night, when I went to see an on-stage conversation between Julia Sweeney and Ira Glass, both strong atheists (based on their comments). Paraphrased, part of their discussion included the observation (which they agreed upon) that: Christianity offers belief in transformation, offers belief that positive things will happen despite all odds, and does help some people to overcome overwhelming odds.
There are numerous testimonials on-line (and elsewhere) from people whose lives were transformed by their acceptance of Jesus – or, looking at it a bit differently, who transformed their own lives inspired by the positive message that they are supported and loved by a higher power. These are stories of people who lived lives of crime, or substance use, or deep poverty, and/or deep hopelessness, who found hope, inspiration, forgiveness, and/or transformation through Jesus. (There may be people who found these through other religions, or without religion, but if so those stories aren’t as plentiful, or not as readily found.) It seems to me, as an atheist, that helping people transform their lives on earth into something more positive by offering hope and inspiration is a good thing.
What do you think? Do you disagree with any comment or assumption I made in this post?
Is overt evangelism among people whose lives are so far off a safe, legal, self-reliant “path” different from evangelism among people who are content on their stable, socially acceptable life “path” but who aren’t already Christians?
Is it off-base for me to think that life circumstance makes any difference in who might most benefit from spiritual intervention?
Does atheism have anything beyond tangible support (food, shelter, job, methadone, education, etc) to offer people in seemingly hopeless life situations?
Leave a Reply
Comment by: Ir
1 05/9/06 6:10 AM | Comment Link |Eliza! I give you 15 out of 10 for the insights and questions in this blog entry!
I need to reframe the whole ‘help and hope’ issue.
I believe there is always help and hope that can be offered to people who need it. People in more need are more receptive to any kind of help and hope offered, including the spiritual kinds offered by religious people.
The following sorts of things give people hope: being loved/cared about; being forgiven; being appreciated; being trusted; feeling like they can and are making a difference in the world.
A belief that God loves and forgives a person and has a purpose for their life can give them hope; but other people (including atheists) can do this too. Not only that, but I think it’s more a powerful and tangible kind of hope when it comes from people you can see and hear and (if appropriate) who will touch you.
It concerns me greatly that Christians often (unintentionally?) think ‘they’re done’ once they’ve communicated a hope-giving God-belief to another person. I stongly disagree - I don’t think the belief by itself works (in most cases). (With possible rare exceptions) it only works effectively when Christians live it out in community with those who have needs. (And perhaps ‘those who have needs’ refers to all of us)
Comment by: TXatheist
2 05/9/06 6:37 AM | Comment Link |I’ve said this for years and even listened to some very unusual stories within UU to hear how people justify the idea of an afterlife/heaven/reincarnation. When I was with a small group, the Ethical Society of Austin, I noticed that because we didn’t believe in god it became a real stumbling block. I made an effort to determine why I couldn’t recruit people to check out the Ethical society. There is no carrot to dangle in front of the them. I can’t lie and say there is a god/heaven/afterlife in order to get them to join. We did the hands on housing but I didn’t expect a reward financially or by some god. I can tell you that my motivations for doing things while a xian were to please god. I realize people do “find god” when they are addicts but when your life is in total chaos anything is better so I understand why people find anything they can view as positive or inspirational as hope. Unfortunately, that’s as far as some get, they make it out of the gutter to remain a zombie free of alcohol and drugs but not a real positive contributor to society.
Comment by: Eliza
3 05/9/06 7:48 AM | Comment Link |No carrot, TX - but also no stick! (hell for eternity)
Comment by: Eliza
4 05/9/06 7:53 AM | Comment Link |Ir, thanks for reframing “help and hope.”
I like this alot:
A second discussion topic will come up later this AM to explore what this is like, to be on the receiving end of this kind of attention.
Comment by: skikid
5 05/9/06 8:09 AM | Comment Link |Ir~
I completely agree!
If non-believers had community groups (do they?) I wonder if they could provide that “tangible support”.
Comment by: Julie Marie
6 05/9/06 8:16 AM | Comment Link |I agree. How a person lives out their beliefs is essential. Theoretical belief is, imo, useless. What you act on is what matters. There is a philanthropic group down here I’ve recently joined called Women Making a Difference. They donate substantially to womens/childrens causes in the local area. They are not a religious group, they are a group that wants to MTWABP, and they are doing something about it. I admire that, no matter what camp I see it in.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
7 05/9/06 9:58 AM | Comment Link |Off The Maps response to the concerns you have accurately identifed has been to “label” it as “beliefism” - Which we define as “the worship of right beliefs” - This is the primary practice of Christianity and all religions. In fact beliefism is so pervasive and commonly accepted that both religious insiders and religious outsiders comfortably use “beliefs” as the identifier of choice.
What you raise is what we call “otherliness” the practice of serving others in small doable and human ways. It can be done by one or many and takes no money and only a little time (think smiling).
This is the practice we have been encouraging whether in the context of evangelism or serving. If it leads to a conversation about the weather or Jesus we go with it.
Also - Otherliness is practiced by people from a wide variety of philosophical backgrounds- we are fine with that and we want to tell their stories as well because it is not the domain of Cs or religious people.
Very insightful process
Comment by: Marty
8 05/9/06 10:14 AM | Comment Link |Eliza - you bring up points that I have pondered a lot. I am not personally drawn to a Billy Graham Born Again manifestation of God - while at the same time I have an immense regard for Billy (and I used to have for his son Franklin before he started making some pretty crazy pronouncements)and believe that his approach is indeed effective with the type of people that you describe and a Born Again experience (which I have not experienced) is very needed and real in the lives of people having major challenges in their lives. I am envolved with a number of faith communities (Quakers, Presbyterian, very progressive Catholic, Unity) - none of which do I feel are effective in bringing about major change in people’s lives that are on drugs, gangs, etc.
I believe that the Born Again experience turns over people’s thinking power to this dogma and belief system - which I certainly do not want for myself - but it seems to be what is very much needed for those going through great life trauma.
I was trained to counsel and particated in the Billy Graham Crusade in Los Angeles in the early 1960’s. I can tell you that the Billy Graham Crusade was the best organized group/company that I have ever been involved with. I believe Billy is authentic and real and his approach has done much good - even though it does not speak to me personally.
Comment by: Ir
9 05/9/06 10:43 AM | Comment Link |Good question, skikid. I see no reason they couldn’t provide tangible support to the extent they exist. Maybe I’m not the most informed on this but this is what I’ve heard:
I think there are not so many as there are churches; I think people who aren’t Christians may have to work a bit harder to find/set up community support than those who are Christians, who usually have a choice of local churches.
On the other hand, not all local churches turn out to have members that are especially focused on supporting one another, so it may take some effort and trial and error for a Christian to find one which does.
There seem to be quite a few online support options for atheists/freethinkers etc. Perhaps this is partly because of the lack of local community support options. I expect part of the problem is ‘numbers’. If you’re the only atheist you can find in your area, you won’t be able to form a support group of atheists!
That’s one reason why it’s helpful if we can cross some barriers and be able to support one another without having to have exactly the same belief/nonbelief system.
Comment by: Lisa W.
10 05/9/06 12:20 PM | Comment Link |I’m interested in an Atheists response to this question which Eliza posed:
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
11 05/9/06 12:26 PM | Comment Link |Eliza asked:
For me, I don’t do “evangelism”. Billy Graham may have the gift but I assuredly do not. But, to the extent that I speak openly (overtly?) about matters of faith, it is personal and situational and contextual. So yes, it differs.
I’m not sure what you mean by intervention. So I’ll set that aside. But if I can re-phrase your question into terms that are more comfortable for me: Is it off-base for me to think that life circumstance makes any difference in who might most benefit from knowning the God who made them? My answer would be ‘yes’. The history of Christianity is littered with people from every social strata and every circumstance who have found greater meaning and purpose in life as a result of knowing God.
My own life is not without problems, but by any measure that society would typically measure, I’ve led a pretty charmed life. And I love life. (My typical response when people say, “How are you?” is to reply, “Life is good when you’re me.” But there is nothing I have and nothing I’ve accomplished that comes even close to the settled satisfaction and peace that I have as a result of knowning the One who made me, and having an inkling of why and for what purpose.
Others may disagree. That’s fine. How’s that working out for you? If you have found that same settled peace and enjoyment of life some other way, then good on ya!
Comment by: Ian
12 05/9/06 1:42 PM | Comment Link |To me there isn`t much else to give other than the basics of life (food,shelter,etc) . Those are the most important things. Anything more than that is not up to me. I don`t go and volunteer my time or donate my money for anything else than to make sure people can have some sort of foundation. I don`t evangelize my position in any situation as it is and to take it to people at their most vulnerable is ,to me, personally offensive.
Going into the Sri Lanka after the tsunami with a bunch of bibles doesn`t do a heckuva lot because if you just lost your home and some white guy with a book starts talking about “salvation” in some afterlife I would probably wanna pound the tar out of him. How bout you put the book down for a bit and pick up a hammer ?
People will become believers of any crazy UFO cult if it means they will be fed and given shelter. If I can alleviate suffering by giving a few dollars so that a person (or people) can make their own decision(s) about their own life(lives) all the better . I just don`t go into expecting some end result where they will see the “light” of freethought.
Comment by: NCxian
13 05/9/06 2:00 PM | Comment Link |I think it hard to think about a quantity of benefit (”benefit most”), so I guess what I would say is that spirituality likely affects every person individually.
I am probably a good example of a comfortable, satisfied person who hasn’t really faced any of the crises that cry out for some sort of intervention/transformation. So I’ve tried to think since I read this post this morning, how do I benefit from my Christian worldview?
I am by my nature a fixer. If I see something broken I want to fix it. If I see somebody treated unjustly, I want to stick up for them. If I see somebody lacking necessities, I want to see that they have those things. I take things on as responsibilities that I have no right, and certainly no obligation, to take care of, because I think I can. (It may sound admirable, but there are surely control freak issues so don’t think I am bragging. Anyway . . .)
I think the benefit to me of the Christian viewpoint is that it says to me, I am not the only one who has to fix things. I am not the first, nor will I be the last, of folks who will fix things. There is a big movement toward things being right (which I call God) and I don’t have to do it by myself. It is freeing to not have to feel the whole weight of the thing, and at the same time, I have the sense that my efforts, however tiny and ineffectual, are an important part of a big, effective thing. There is a “prayer” that I have turned into a bookmark that I use in my Bible that says this way better than I can. It is called The Prayer of Oscar Romero, although I understand it was written about him, not by him. I would cut and paste if I thought the formatting would stay in tact, but I think it will be better if I just give the URL.
http://bogners.typepad.com/church/2004/03/the_prayer_of_o.html
Comment by: TXatheist
14 05/9/06 2:14 PM | Comment Link |Lisa asked
Yes,
There is no guarantee you will be a better skeptic but once you understand atheism and how it merits a lack of belief in any gods you also generally getter a better grip of what constitutes a scam. You aren’t as vulnerable. There is also a sense of relief. You realize you aren’t being taken in with a story that does lead many people to follow without question. Atheism provides a sense of intellectual honesty and freedom that can’t be expressed well enough in words.
Comment by: Julie Marie
15 05/9/06 2:28 PM | Comment Link |I like that thought! Thanks for sharing it.
Comment by: Lisa W.
16 05/9/06 3:03 PM | Comment Link |NCxian this is really great:
Comment by: Lisa W.
17 05/9/06 3:07 PM | Comment Link |in response to Eliza question:
Does atheism have anything beyond tangible support (food, shelter, job, methadone, education, etc) to offer people in seemingly hopeless life situations?
TX said:
A’s and C’s: if you were in a ’seemingly hopeless life situation’ would this help you?
Comment by: Eliza
18 05/9/06 3:32 PM | Comment Link |While I, personally, like being a skeptic and an atheist, I think in a ‘hopeless life situation’ that life view would push me to plan and act but wouldn’t give me hope or a sense of being supported to hang onto. And the only reason I think I could plan and act to get out of a bad situation is because I’ve had the benefit of a stable law-abiding life, stable home & family, bank account, and education, and jobs - so I know what it looks like to have those things, how important they are, and how to go about trying to get them back. I’d have a target to aim for.
If I’d grown up without those things, I can’t imagine how I would have any idea how to plan or act to get from point A to point B without major, major encouragement and support, and involved mentoring or role-modeling.
Comment by: Ir
19 05/9/06 5:36 PM | Comment Link |If your ’seemingly hopeless situation’ consists of beliefs such as “God is mad at me”, “I’ll never be good enough for God” “I’ve sinned too much for God ever to forgive me”, “I know what the Bible says but I can’t help being attracted to the same gender”
then becoming an atheist would help.
Losing an unhelpful belief will always help.
I do think TXatheist touches on a number of things that can be helpful. Christians are often too vulnerable and too quick to follow without question. Christians often are far from as free as they could be and ought to be. And such things can contribute to a situation being more ’seemingly hopeless’ than it need be.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
20 05/9/06 7:10 PM | Comment Link |It doesn’t just concern me. It pisses me off!
BTW, I’d love to see a mixed “community group” with Christians and Atheists… a kind of “non-virtual” version of what we do here… THAT would be so super-cool I can hardly imagine it!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
21 05/9/06 7:44 PM | Comment Link |Eliza, thanks for being transparent. I think most of the world lives without the benefits you and many of us to a greater or lesser degree have experienced. That may be the reason for the rapid spread of Islam and Christianityt in developing nations. I get the feeling sometime that we think these people are incapable of making “real” choices and decisions because they “lack” the material/educational benefits many of us have enjoyed (along with the profound financial debt). That attitude is perhaps more a reflection of our high value on enlightenment (now failed) values than it is a fair assesment of their capacity to make real choices.
Comment by: Eliza
22 05/9/06 8:41 PM | Comment Link |Peter,
It would, but I wonder if it would be harder to smooth out the bumps and keep it going! There will be a discussion question tomorrow along the lines of this idea, so I hope you will be around!
Comment by: Ir
23 05/10/06 5:32 AM | Comment Link |I think people get off-track when they place too much faith in enlightenment, atheism, Christian doctrine, or whatever as ‘the complete answer to Life, The Universe and Everything’. Humans are fallible; moreover we each have individual and subtle differences in our viewpoints based on what we know and our life experiences. It just isn’t that simple (imo ;))
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
24 05/10/06 6:09 AM | Comment Link |Eliza writes
I will now!
Comment by: TXatheist
25 05/10/06 8:48 AM | Comment Link |Peter,
Go to a UU church. Atheists and xians, non-evangelical types sitting right next to each other.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
26 05/10/06 9:45 AM | Comment Link |TX,
Yes, sounds interesting, but to me, as I think we’ve discussed before, I think my definition of what a Xian is and the UU understanding are quite different. Alas, I can’t get past this…
Comment by: TXatheist
27 05/10/06 10:22 AM | Comment Link |Care to bring this discussion to the DB? UU xian compared to Peter the xian?
Comment by: KSG
28 05/11/06 12:47 PM | Comment Link |While I don’t have the time to spend on the DB, I am curious to have this question answered…
What is your definition of a Xian?
What are the qualifying factors that constitute being a Xian?
Since we have a wide spectrum of Atheist & Xian contributing to this blog, I’d like to hear from everyone on this…
Comment by: Ir
29 05/11/06 1:28 PM | Comment Link |KSG your questions are off-topic here, but I will start a thread for you on the discussion board with them in.
It won’t take you any time to click the following link and read whatever answers people post.
And to everyone else - please follow the link and post answers to KSG there rather than here. Thanks!
What is your definition of a Christian?
Comment by: Bill
30 08/7/06 6:18 AM | Comment Link |Hi
Speaking of 12 Step Programs
Alcoholics Anonymous routinely reads their Step 2 which states:
…….Let’s look first at the case of the one who says he won’t believe - the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage…….
This theology is much more then just stating the need of a Higher Power. AA is saying that Atheists are basically bad people.