Posted by Marty on: 05.18.2006 /
Some of the questions Eliza raised brought forth some very profound (at least for me) responses - particularly in regards to making the world a better place.
Of the five comments below - three were from people who started from a point of calling themselves Atheists and two starting from the point of calling themselves Christian. I say from the starting point because some of us seem to be less interested/concerned about our label than when we started.
What can we learn from this?
Do our labels really have any significance when it comes to making the world a better place - or do our labels sometimes get in the way of doing that?
“The hope that I can MTWABP by helping other people understand each other better - that gives it a point too which justifies me spending some time on it.”
“As came up yesterday, if the sole reason for getting together is common work on a MTWABP project, there’s probably no reason to bring belief differences into it.”
“If you don’t care who gets the official glory when your fellow humans get helped, you have a lot more freedom to choose how you want to MTWABP. I think that if the focus is truly on MTWABP and you have chosen an avenue that you are passionate about, then that would be the focus of conversation when the group gets together, rather than the spiritual orientation of the members of the group. At least I would hope the cause would be more important than any individual agendas.”
“When we work together to MTWABP it brings out the best of who all of us are - and when that happens we see that each/all of us are quite good.”
“I don’t think it’s about respecting each other so that the result is we don’t have to make any compromises. I think it is about MTWABP even in light of the fact that we have to manage the polarity of differences and make compromises.”
Comment by: Eliza
1I’m thinking we don’t need/use the labels so much for ourselves, but that people just seem to feel more comfortable when they can associate some label with other people - put them in some mental category!
One response could be: refuse to be labelled. Work to MTWABP, but without labels does that mean you never reveal any information about your approach or beliefs? That seems a shame!
Another approach could be: break the mold & come up with some more inclusive labels. On the Discussion Board, Mike C offered the term “peacemaker” as a more active term than “pacifist” - seems if you think of that as your approach, and describe yourself that way to others, it may turn into a label - but maybe one that describes one approach to MTWABP, without sorting people by religious beliefs or end of the political spectrum.
“MTWABPer”, though, is not catchy as a new label!
Comment by: Ir
2Marty, I have had a dislike of labels for quite a while. I would be surprised to find anyone labelled ‘has a mental health disorder’ who didn’t have issues with labels. It’s not the label but the stigma it carries. Labels stir up presuppositions and emotions in others that those others often give us no opportunity to address and correct, if wrong about us.
Bottom line - labels do things we can’t control and we can’t always correct to the minds and emotions of others. That’s what bothers me about them.
Eliza is right - people do like to categorize others. I don’t see this as a problem per se; the problem arises when
a) they aren’t willing to create a new category if you don’t fit in the existing ones - they’d rather squeeze you into one that doesn’t really fit - not noticing how uncomfortable it is for you being squeezed into that box.
b) they have zero interest in hearing how you don’t actually fit in any of their boxes. Their box structure means more to them than the truth about you does. I don’t know about the rest of you but - speaking for myself it really hurts when other people feel that way. If I am honest about it.
Btw I just want to let everyone know that I haven’t participated much in the comments the last few days because I’ve been very busy with other stuff. It’s not because I have found Marty’s topics uninteresting - so please don’t anyone draw that conclusion. In fact I really like them - I’ve just been busy.
Comment by: TXatheist
3I will tell a story about labels. 3 years ago I went to Home Depot to get supplies for hands on housing. I ran into an old friend who I hung out with occassionaly to watch football on tv. He asked how and what I was doing. I said fine and was helping the Ethical Society of Austin with hands on housing. The ESA has been fighting tax-exempt status in the news so some people were aware of them. He then asked “What are you an agnostic?” I said yeah that label is fine. He started to walk away and said “Well, there’s only 1 truth” That’s why I have become more blunt. My lack of belief is definitely not an inferior position than his xianity and it’s irritating he walked away thinking that.
Comment by: Julie Marie
4Well, speaking as one who doessn’t know what to call myself anymore, beyond God lover…labels are generally useful to get an overall grasp of a persons probable frame of reference. But using a general term to define a specific person is foolish.
Still, its hard to avoid. I was at a gas station this morning in a part of town I don’t frequent often and in front of me was a pickup truck. (gas is cheaper on the other side of the tracks) First bumper sticker I saw? God Bless America. Hmmmm…ok, I’d like that. Next bumper sticker…Bush/Cheney ‘04. Ok…I voted that way back then. Last bumper sticker: confederate flag with I’d rather be historically accurate than politically correct. OK…I can go with that too, (minus the confederate flag). But somehow, I still think it would be an awkward dinner if the family riding in that truck were to sit down with the family riding in my minivan. What was the label I’ve plastered them with? Because of the confederate flag + God + Bush + pickup truck on other side of the tracks? I reckon y’all can figure that out.
Comment by: TXatheist
5Julie,
Can you bring this over to the DB? I’ll call it confederate flag
Comment by: Ir
6I think it’s rude to say something like that and walk away. On the other hand, I daresay people who say things like that and walk off probably wouldn’t be listening if they did stick around to hear your response - so at least he saved you the time of sharing your POV with him to no avail :)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
7TX- It is this mean spirited and dismissive kind of communication Christians (in their insecurity)have been taught to practice that I am working to change.
I apologize for his nervous way of “having the last word”. Having once been a christian insider, you know that he went straight back to his promise keepers group and “humbly bragged” about how he had just “witnessed” to an atheist. Whereupon the leader of the group would have used the story of his interaction with you to remind everyone why the bible is the word of god and we must resist the enemies intrusion into our nation(especially Texas because if the Devil, who we KNOW lives on the West Coast is making headway in Texas THEN the end must be near!And even though all of us are anxious to get to heaven (wink wink) we still need to stand up for whats right - right here in the good ol USA. (translation- Vote Bush)
Anyway - on this one TX you and are I lined up shoulder to shoulder
Comment by: damannion
8I’m not feeling very profound today, so I’ll just say “labels = yuk.”
Really, they are for other people to make their lives easier. It fosters prejudgment and implied lack of necessity to really get to know the person “behind” the labels because “by their labels I shall know them”. I’ve known many non-believers who live lives that are very Christ-like and many Christians who live, well, you know….
As one with many affixed by others, I’ve only recently been refusing to let them stick. It’s part of my “don’t let others define me” crusade, which I highly recommend.
We are all much more complex than the labels others attach to us. They get in the way.
For example, I laugh when I read something like this about homosexuality:
“We Christians have to let the homosexuals know it is wrong.”
Me = Christian + homosexual
ha!
To TXatheist, that “one truth” business. I don’t believe it. My mother was Roman Catholic, Christian, and sat in circles (AKA seances). (Whereas my father said he’d believe in that seance nonsense the day he saw a coffee table levitate.)
Comment by: TXatheist
9damannion said
I’m presuming you are inferring that a very few non-believers lived their lives very immoral and contradictory and some actual xians who lived their life well, you know, like the typical atheist…very moral. That’s what you meant right:)
Comment by: Ir
10Thanks for your comments, Jim & damannion.
Comment by: TXatheist
11Thanks Jim, it’s just a shame that after countless hours of football watching and conversations a few years prior we run into each other and it’s a confrontation. I’ve learned to accept that. It’s not just xians though. My dear grandma is 85 and she grew up in a different era. My grandpa fought in the Korean war so grandma said derogatory things about nig***s and slant-eyes. I was dating a filapino girl once and grandma said to never bring her around. I said fine grandma, you won’t ever see me again. I know people are disturbed about cutting off family but even my parents know what they taught me and I won’t stand for it. I can live without bigotry and intolerance and I’ll be just fine.
Comment by: NCxian
12Damannion: You wrote:
Are you a gay Christian? (I couldn’t figure out a less abrupt way to ask. Sorry!)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
13yes she is
Comment by: damannion
14Yes, and this is a very recent development. Due to the way some present Christianity, it took me 45 years to figure out Jesus really does love me.
doreen
Comment by: NCxian
15Damannion: I hope you will think about posting your story on the Discussion Board. It is really a perspective we could use. I am glad you are on board!
Comment by: NCxian
16Wait, have I seen you on a panel discussion at the OTM main site?
Comment by: damannion
17Yes, that was me. I told Jim Henderson that I believe my calling is to be the first lesbian televangelist, and I think I’m only half joking.
Unfortunately, while I’ve been in the computer field for over 20 years, I’ve yet to be successful in signing up for/accessing the DBs.
doreen
Comment by: NCxian
18Doreen: If you are going to be a televangelist, then you’ve got to get over the DB and see the video in the Common Grounds cafe under “circus or church” to see how it is REALLY done. It is a hoot!