If I had to choose just one moral leader that speaks to me - it is the Dalai Lama. I love the video and it conveys much of what draws me to Interfaith work.
But Interfaith work does not seem to even consider Atheists - something that had not been in my consciousness until this blog.
The question becomes - is it more important to be people of “faith” (which excludes those who are living rich, full, moral and giving lives that are not people of faith)or do we contribute more to helping make the world a better place by including everyone and focusing on being loving, compassionate, caring, supportive, giving people.
I believe that if my goal was to convert someone to my beliefs and really cared about being successful in doing that - I would first demonstrate my love, compassion, caring, listening - which would provide the best possible opportunity to open someone else up to my religious views - rather than starting by trying to convert them - and having them wonder about how I manifest my beliefs in my life - and if they knew how I manifested them - would that be something that they would really want to follow?
Marty wrote: But Interfaith work does not seem to even consider Atheists
I’m glad you said that Marty - because I knew there was something about it which made me feel it’s not quite my thing, and I think you put your finger on it.
Whether I’m one or not, the idea that they would be excluded from something simply for being atheists - even if it’s more that no-one thought to include them, than they were deliberately excluded - bothers me.
I’m glad Marty mentioned his awareness too.
Although, inherent to faithful people is that idea that we cast out a net and bring in everyone regardless of their affiliation/label.
And I don’t mean ‘bring in’ as in ‘convert’, but to gather together to form coalitions. Inclusiveness is really the bedrock of faith traditions isn’t it? We stray from it and make it legalistic in many cases but I think it is foundational.
I am interested in hearing how an atheist feels about this video.
I would assume that any As who have been on this blog would have no issue with what the Dalai Lama said in terms of outcomes but I also assume that an A (even a friendly one) would have issues about the assumptions being made by this video.
I do know that fundamentalist Cs would be just as likely to resist the videos assumptions but from a completely different set of reasons.
I guess for me the reaction is, Beautiful, so what? Maybe a “so what?” isn’t necessary. I guess it depends on what the underlying message is perceived to be.
I look at it and see it as a call to true tolerance towards those who disagree with your fundamental assumptions. That’s a no-brainer to me.
Some might look at it and see it as an exhortation to see that all religions are equally true or equally valid. And, as far as truth is concerned, that’s just nonsense. There are mutually exclusive positions involved. As far as valid — shrug — that depends on valid for what purpose. Gaining a sense of calm serenity? Yeah, probably so. Living a good moral life here and now? Yeah, probably so. But, of course, a lot of the people involved don’t believe that “here and now” is what it’s all about. And it is at that point that the stark differences turn up.
But, living together peacefully? You bet. And India, because it chose the political way of a secular democracy, has avoided the sectarian strife of so many other countries.
My reaction to the video is, WOW that would be great if it were true or at least if we could speed up the horribly slow and torturous path in that direction. Certainly in this country I do not see that we are moving towards tolerance but instead becoming more and more polarized.
Tom, I must take issue with your statement that India has avoided religious strife. I cannot quote numbers but it appears that Hindus and Moslems kill hundreds of each other every year over such rational issues(LOL) as the building of a temple on the supposed birthplace of one of their Gods (not to mention the creation of Pakistan).
I also admire the Dalai Lama as I do much about Buddhism. I know that many Buddhists are effectively Atheists and the Buddha himself was apparently very unclear on the supernatural questions such as life after death. Does anyone know what the Dalai Lama’s position is on such things?
I don’t find anything to quibble with in the introduction, the first 50 seconds, about nature and philosophical questions being the underpinnings of development of all religions.
In the rest of the video, I see the Dalai Lama talking about tolerance, saying part, ‘So tolerance is essential…and forgiveness’ - for world peace. He’s right that the biggest effort will be among people of different religions. But while he doesn’t specifically include ‘nonreligious’ I also don’t hear him excluding them (us). And, interestingly, I also don’t hear him specifically including Buddhists - he talks about (in India, where he lives too) “one Christian family, one Hindu family, one Moslem family” so he’s focusing on the “big 3″ but I think realizes all people are included in the need for tolerance and forgiveness.
This blog claims to list quotes from the Dalai Lama, including these two:
We can live without religion and meditation, but we cannot survive without human affection.
Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn’t anyone who doesn’t appreciate kindness and compassion.
The first historically significant nontheist was probably Gautama Buddha, who, when asked whether God existed, usually responded with complete silence… On one occasion, he responded with a story of a man shot with a poisoned arrow:
When the doctor arrived to remove the arrow, the man grabbed the doctor’s hand and asked, “Before you start treating me, Doctor, tell me, who was it that shot me? Was he of warrior class or some other class? Was he tall or was he short? Was he young or was he old? Was he dark skinned or light skinned?” The doctor ignored the questions and removed the arrow. Had he taken the time to answer the questions, the patient would have died. For this reason, said the Buddha, I will not answer your question about God. If I did, you would just spend your time in endless speculation, and never awaken from your current state.
Nontheism remains a common element of many schools of Buddhism. However, many theologians have argued that Buddhists* have merely transferred their theistic devotion to ancestors, bodhisattvas, kami, and other “deity surrogates”.
Eliza wrote: Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn’t anyone who doesn’t appreciate kindness and compassion.
Comment by: Marty
1If I had to choose just one moral leader that speaks to me - it is the Dalai Lama. I love the video and it conveys much of what draws me to Interfaith work.
But Interfaith work does not seem to even consider Atheists - something that had not been in my consciousness until this blog.
The question becomes - is it more important to be people of “faith” (which excludes those who are living rich, full, moral and giving lives that are not people of faith)or do we contribute more to helping make the world a better place by including everyone and focusing on being loving, compassionate, caring, supportive, giving people.
I believe that if my goal was to convert someone to my beliefs and really cared about being successful in doing that - I would first demonstrate my love, compassion, caring, listening - which would provide the best possible opportunity to open someone else up to my religious views - rather than starting by trying to convert them - and having them wonder about how I manifest my beliefs in my life - and if they knew how I manifested them - would that be something that they would really want to follow?
Comment by: Ir
2I’m glad you said that Marty - because I knew there was something about it which made me feel it’s not quite my thing, and I think you put your finger on it.
Whether I’m one or not, the idea that they would be excluded from something simply for being atheists - even if it’s more that no-one thought to include them, than they were deliberately excluded - bothers me.
Comment by: Lisa W.
3I’m glad Marty mentioned his awareness too.
Although, inherent to faithful people is that idea that we cast out a net and bring in everyone regardless of their affiliation/label.
And I don’t mean ‘bring in’ as in ‘convert’, but to gather together to form coalitions. Inclusiveness is really the bedrock of faith traditions isn’t it? We stray from it and make it legalistic in many cases but I think it is foundational.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
4I am interested in hearing how an atheist feels about this video.
I would assume that any As who have been on this blog would have no issue with what the Dalai Lama said in terms of outcomes but I also assume that an A (even a friendly one) would have issues about the assumptions being made by this video.
I do know that fundamentalist Cs would be just as likely to resist the videos assumptions but from a completely different set of reasons.
Finding a third place to sit will be hard work
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
5I guess for me the reaction is, Beautiful, so what? Maybe a “so what?” isn’t necessary. I guess it depends on what the underlying message is perceived to be.
I look at it and see it as a call to true tolerance towards those who disagree with your fundamental assumptions. That’s a no-brainer to me.
Some might look at it and see it as an exhortation to see that all religions are equally true or equally valid. And, as far as truth is concerned, that’s just nonsense. There are mutually exclusive positions involved. As far as valid — shrug — that depends on valid for what purpose. Gaining a sense of calm serenity? Yeah, probably so. Living a good moral life here and now? Yeah, probably so. But, of course, a lot of the people involved don’t believe that “here and now” is what it’s all about. And it is at that point that the stark differences turn up.
But, living together peacefully? You bet. And India, because it chose the political way of a secular democracy, has avoided the sectarian strife of so many other countries.
Comment by: isaone
6My reaction to the video is, WOW that would be great if it were true or at least if we could speed up the horribly slow and torturous path in that direction. Certainly in this country I do not see that we are moving towards tolerance but instead becoming more and more polarized.
Tom, I must take issue with your statement that India has avoided religious strife. I cannot quote numbers but it appears that Hindus and Moslems kill hundreds of each other every year over such rational issues(LOL) as the building of a temple on the supposed birthplace of one of their Gods (not to mention the creation of Pakistan).
I also admire the Dalai Lama as I do much about Buddhism. I know that many Buddhists are effectively Atheists and the Buddha himself was apparently very unclear on the supernatural questions such as life after death. Does anyone know what the Dalai Lama’s position is on such things?
Comment by: Eliza
7I don’t find anything to quibble with in the introduction, the first 50 seconds, about nature and philosophical questions being the underpinnings of development of all religions.
In the rest of the video, I see the Dalai Lama talking about tolerance, saying part, ‘So tolerance is essential…and forgiveness’ - for world peace. He’s right that the biggest effort will be among people of different religions. But while he doesn’t specifically include ‘nonreligious’ I also don’t hear him excluding them (us). And, interestingly, I also don’t hear him specifically including Buddhists - he talks about (in India, where he lives too) “one Christian family, one Hindu family, one Moslem family” so he’s focusing on the “big 3″ but I think realizes all people are included in the need for tolerance and forgiveness.
This blog claims to list quotes from the Dalai Lama, including these two:
We can live without religion and meditation, but we cannot survive without human affection.
Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn’t anyone who doesn’t appreciate kindness and compassion.
Comment by: Eliza
8And, a theme I keep harping on: Buddhism at its core is nontheistic. From Wikipedia entry on Nontheism:
(*in some sects, at least)
Comment by: Ir
9Well said, Eliza.
Comment by: Eliza
10Thanks, Ir - but that was a quote from the Dalai Lama! :)