Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 05.25.2006 /
On this blog yesterday TXatheist asked how we will handle the influx of Islam.
On the discussion board yesterday “isaone” posted the following comments under the heading Give me Freedom From Religion or Give Me Death:
I am scared, if this is the country I love something has to be done about to ensure religious freedom before it is toooooo late.
I have just finished listening to part of today’s Fresh Aire with Teddy Gross . On the show she interviews Michael Farris the founder of Patrick Henry College. He started the college to provide a place for home schooled Christian students.
All students must sign a statement of faith stating among other things that they believe in the Trinity, Man’s inherent sinfulness, and the inerrancy of the Bible (also read the scary statement of Biblical World View [right under the Statement of Faith]). This guy is so out of touch with reality that he seems to think that PHC represents freedom because “The enemies of freedom and truth dominate our elite colleges and universities and thereby dominate our nation”. He shows his unbelievable ignorance of Science by stating that Scientists “reject as a matter of faith any presupposition that would allow them to believe in any alternative, despite the facts” and therefore will not accept Intelligent Design. At this point I got so worked up I had to write this post. I will see if I can work up the courage to continue.
So why do I care? After all this college has only 160 graduates in total (they opened in 2000). I care because 7 of the 100 Whitehouse interns are from PHC, I care because a large number are interns in other government offices and the RNC (Republican National Committee), and I care because this guy refers to his students as the Joshua Generation who will “take back the land”. Does anyone out there need to be reminded of what Joshua’s generation in the Bible did to the previous inhabitants of the promised Land? I care because I truly (as I have said before) believe that 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago PTC would have been a joke and simply faded away. Now they are thriving and building the next generation of powerful connected politicians.
Jim, I know you and others on this board feel the tide is turning away from fundamentalism, I would love to agree with you but I simply do not see the evidence.
Ironically, I have often heard Evangelical Christians what I consider an equal and opposite fear: namely, that Evangelical Christians are likely to lose their religious freedom in the US, because the culture is moving further and further away from what they believe.
I’m curious:
Comment by: TXatheist
1Awhile back I showed some statistics that non-religious people in the US has gone from 9 to 15% in one decade. I think that trend will continue. Europe is that way already and generally the US follows them culturally. The religious freedom in the South is more under threat imo because the xians in the South are so strong-headed about their righteousness. I don’t think the US will go in the wrong direction. I just think we have a dumb President right now that is too stupid to understand religious freedom. His life was so much in the gutter that he found Jesus but can’t realize we all don’t sink to that level of chaos and need to find God. Tom did make a valid point though, conservatives seem to have more kids so it’s an uphill battle unless the immigrants are going to either help our pluralism or hinder it because they are strong christians like Bush. I’m also not too thrilled with our Supreme Court now that Bush got Scalito and Roberts.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
2Yes, it’s a concern, but I think we’re going to be just fine. As a relatively conservative Christ-follower, I find it ironic that I think that our best hope for religious tolerance to continue and expand in this land may come from those who disagree with me most strongly. Would I like them to change their minds and embrace Christ (or for Christ to embrace them)? Of course I would. But tolerance and “pluralism” is a great thing, and I want to see it continue.
I am concerned a little. Fortunately, as long as ultra-RightWingers like Pat Robertons continue to make asses of themselves by words they should not have said… we should maybe be okay… Americans eventually figure out who is worth listening to and who’s not…
Comment by: bernie
3I’ve got the solution : May reason prevail, There are no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell, There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds . ( few of you will read this , they won’t let you !!!)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
4Theres a guy out there named Bono and he is the most influential Christian among young (non right wing Cs)
Funny Michael Farris spent the night at my house a couple of times in the late seventies when I considering joining the conservatives- I have been waiting to see when his name would reappear-
You may disagree with him (as I do) but if you are serious about making a difference you should imitate his dedication and focus .
Comment by: Siamang
5I vow to spend more time away from church than Farris spends in church!
;-)
Comment by: damannion
6I hear what you are saying Jim, but it’s a lot easier to be dedicated and focused when you’ve got lots of money….
doreen
Comment by: Tom in Sacramento
7As long as I can think my religious freedom’s intact.
It sounds to me like what you’re talking about is that great and cherished, but utterly false, Constitutional guarantee of protection from anything that might offend…for whatever reason a person might find it so.
Comment by: Julie Marie
8I do not personally fear my religious liberty is in peril, and didn’t feel that even when I was firmly in the conservative camp. But I was not typical, either.
I think as the secular voice is being heard (and it is - why else would Wal Mart say Happy Holidays ;)) that the fear of change wells up in peoples psyches. Some are less able to manage this fear than others - hence the militant imagery.
So then you have the liberal christians and non christians and non religious, who see this militant imagery, and get alarmed.
I understand the alarm - I found those images shocking myself. They do cause me concern. I don’t know exactly how to effectively work towards changing the climate, but I’m aware of the need for this and can at least be more proactive in trying to de-escalate the rhetoric when the conservatives I live, work, and play with go looking for the soapbox.
Comment by: Peter in Pennsylvania
9Jim writes
Amen. He is one of the most unconventional Christians I’ve ever known of, and one of the best at actually walking the talk, and when he does “talk the talk” he sounds more and more “conventional” as a Xian (in sort of the “emergent” sense) all the time. (I highly recommend the recent book-length interview of him for all you U2 fans out there…)
The guy is making a SERIOUS difference for the poor of the world! He has used his platform and influence for that better than any of the so-called Xian celebrity leaders have (and some have started to join him!
I suspect if we Xians were all more like that, more people might want to join us!
Comment by: NCxian
10I am a generally optimistic person, partly because I have lived long enough to see that the pendulum swings back and forth on all things human (or maybe a cycle is a better image, but anyway . . .). So I am probably one of the folks isaone is referring to who see a anti-fundamentalist movement afoot. And I do. I posted a link in this conversation on the DB to a group of clergy people opposed to the imposition of religious values on all of America throught the Marriage Preservation Act. Karen found a link to an article about Tony Compolo and Red Letter Christians, who are trying to coordinate a movement of “neither politically right nor left” Christians (which I am sure is like “herding cats”–Karen says we liberals are all to “self-actualized” :) )
I guess my feeling is not scared, but wary. The thing that worries me the most is the notion of politics and religion being tied so closely together. I have not listened to the Farris clip, but I am pretty sure it wouldn’t be long before I would be really angry. Angry because he would likely begin to talk as if the only legitimate political position for a religious person to take is a conservative one. And of course, I take personal offense at that since I am committed to my religious views AND to a liberal political position. And, to add insult to injury, this gives people a false stereotype of me, which I have to dispel all the time (as I have tried to do in this diablog).
Another group I suspect gets angry at this kind stuff are folks who are not conservatively religious but are politically conservative. This kind of conservative relgion/conservative politics fusion has to really get them steamed too, I would think. Although I can’t really think of a politician off the top of my head who is expressing dissatisfaction with it. It may be that the relgious conservatives are too powerful in the Republican party. Which, I guess, is something that really makes me wary, since that is the party where the pendulum currently is suspended! Maybe I am a little scared in that regard.
Oh, and to be fair, it must be pointed out that there are religiously conservative folks who believe extremely strongly in the separation of church and state. I just have to wonder what they think about all this.
I see I used the word “fusion”. Maybe what we need to do is just deactivate their polymerization card! (I think I hang out with 10 year olds too much!).
Comment by: Nutrideath
11For those Christians out there - don’t these questions seem a bit narrow minded?
After all, God created all humanity, not just those that happen to live in the USA. The political winds of the US will blow where they will, but US political policy will by no means change God’s policies, & how he deals with humanity. Nor will the politics of any country on the face of the globe.
Some will work hard to fix the ills of the world, and kudos to them for it. But ultimately God is the only one able to save the world. And, he will save the whole world, not just the US.
God’s people are not a single nation. They are all over the world, within the populations of every political entity & government. His people transcend human government. If a particular government passes laws against God’s people, or attacks them in any way, could that government ever be successful?
IMO, we need a global view, not just a “We need to protect my right as a US citizen to do X!!” attitude.
Comment by: Marty
12Lots of good thoughts. How about we call ourselves “Bono Christians” - I would be happy to be called that and be a part of a movement that he represents.
Comment by: Ir
13Nutrideath - you raise a good point. I didn’t write the questions in a way that open them up to people from other countries. I probably should have done that although I think most/all of our current blog participants live in the US.
And certainly, there are countries which have no religious freedom, so the questions as written wouldn’t apply in those countries.
Nevertheless - I do want to know what US residents think. And in practice, where we live affects our own lives the most. In practice, it’s not going to affect us nearly as much whether places where we don’t live have religious freedom or not.
Even though we may consider we have a moral obligation to do what we can to help other countries gain religious freedom.
Comment by: Nutrideath
14Hi Ir, how are you?
I didn’t mean that the questions should’ve been opened up like that because the web can be international in scope. Rather, because God is international in scope.
But Ir, forgive me if I’m wrong but your last post still sounds like it comes from a completely human viewpoint. Its as if all these questions about religion need to be worked out by us humans, because there isn’t anyone else to fix things.
If you’re a Christian, then in practice, you should remember that there really is a God. The terms “almighty” & “all-powerful” get bandied around a lot, but people forget what those words mean. He is POWERFUL.
Leaving God out of any personal plans is a huge part of the equation to forget. Yet so many Christians determinedly go about the business of “making this country a better place for Christians to live in.” They do this without taking into account that God is already at work, and on a global scale.
So many Christians feel they’ve got to take a stand, make their voice heard, or whatever. That’s why you get the militant extremist Christians out there. They feel that they must change the world for God, but in reality they’ve forgotten God. (God said “Vengeance is mine” but they evidently didn’t notice that scripture.)
God doesn’t need a militant organization to change the world for him - he will take care of that. God didn’t commission true believers to go to war, or promote his ideas politically, or legislate laws of lands to smile on his people. He can and does take care of his people, all over the world, even in countries without religious freedom.
Your last statement, in part, reads “…we have a moral obligation to do what we can to help other countries gain religious freedom.” But, is that really so? It sounds right, doesn’t it? And so in many cases it goes as an assumption. But is that what God wants us to do? Did he ever ask or command us to do that?
If you notice, the commission that Jesus gave to his followers recorded at Matthew 28:19 & 20 contains no instructions about changing the political world — only individual disciples.
Comment by: NCxian
15ND, if you are commissioned to share the message of Jesus Christ, wouldn’t part of that commissioning be to do what you can to encourage an environment where one can freely express religious convictions?
Comment by: Ir
16Nutrideath, I”ve responded to you on the db, here:
Our role and God’s role in changing the world
Comment by: Jim Henderson
17Doreen - I knew Michael to be this way before he had money - We don’t need money we need focus dedication and passion
Comment by: isaone
18Interesting take on the subject Nutrideath, thanks.
Jim, do you think that there is a general lack of passion and focus among those of us who disagree with Mr. Farris? Are the liberal religious and non religious lacking in that area?
I recall reading a study somewhere about a year ago. They compared psychological traits of conservative and liberals. One of the difference was that conservatives liked Black and Whit answers. No gray areas allowed. Do you feel that this belief that there is no gray adds to the determination of those such as Mr. Farris. I think it is generally much easier to be focused when you are so certain of your targets.