Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 06.19.2006 /
In the third dialog with Pastor Tim, Hemant asked:
Using statistics from about five years ago,
- Polls have shown 90% of people in the general public believe in God;
- According to Scientific American, 40% of scientists with Bachelors degrees believe in God;
- According to Nature magazine only 7% of people in the National Academy of Sciences such as Nobel Laureates, believe in God.
Why is it that as people get more and more experienced academically they stop believing in God?
The dialog then went somewhat as follows:
Pastor Tim:
It’s not more and more experience academically; it’s more and more experience in science academically.
Hemant:
But not all Nobel prizes are for science
Pastor Tim:
But some Nobel prize winners are Christians.
Hemant:
Sure
Pastor Tim:
100 years ago we defined science as “the removal of anything supernatural” and took anything supernatural out of science. So the more you study science in that realm where you have to take the supernatural out the less you’re going to believe in God.
If you go to a Moslem country and study Islam you’re going to be indoctrinated into it and be punished if you study anything else. I believe it’s almost like that in the scientific field today. Anything supernatural is outside the realm of science. It wasn’t always that way. Isaac Newton, Pasteur, a lot of the great scientists were Christians and a lot of great scientists today are Christians. But you have to go completely against the stream of what is being taught.
Hemant:
I don’t think science is ever saying ‘Don’t mention God’. It says, if we want to talk about something testable and observable, it has to be something we can see and test. God is obviously outside that realm. It’s not saying [belief in God] is wrong per se, but if you want to talk about science, we can’t bring in the supernatural because we can’t test it. So there is room for compatibility between the two.
Pastor Tim:
But I still believe that’s the answer to your question. The more you study science the more you’re going to get Darwinianism and materialism and the propaganda that’s been out there.
There are some great Christian science people out there but - it’s hard to go through our system and get a degree in philosophy and still believe in God unless you go to a Christian university. Unless you have a really strong faith. You’re going walk in and be bombarded with everything else and most of the people teaching and most of the people that are a part of that university are going to say “You know what? Christianity is stupid so you can’t believe that.”
Comment by: Julie Marie
1If people equate education with intelligence, then yes, I could see how saying as people learn more they believe less would be offensive. If people are defensive about their lack of education, this would seen as an elitist thing to say - the old, AHA, he thinks he’s better than us! reaction might rear up. Lack of advanced degrees does not necessarily correlate with an inability to think or reason. But it would be wise to be aware of sensitivities in this area. No one likes to be thought of as simple minded.
Comment by: Julie Marie
2I don’t think rigid, literal beliefs and academic experience co-exist exceptionally well. If a person has been raised with a fundamentalist worldview, and the flaws in that worldview are exposed, they are going to have to adapt the view. But fundamentalist beliefs aren’t really open for question or adaptation, so when they come under serious challenge, there are only 2 options: refuse to consider the challenge or abandon belief. If a believer stays in an academic environment long enough, chances are one or two challenges will make it past the defense wall. If there isn’t a more flexible way of looking at the Christian message, then belief will be abandoned.
imo.
I was just thinking of a wedding I attended this weekend. Bride and Groom are christians, raised in christian homes (one was homeschooled) attended Bob Jones University, and are working as teachers now in a Christian School. They are not uneducated, but they are insulated from serious challenges to their belief system.
Comment by: Karen
3Tim said:
I went to two universities as a Christian undergrad - one public and one private - and I never heard anything even REMOTELY like “Christianity is stupid.” Yes, I was certainly exposed to a lot of philosophy and science that I hadn’t learned as a high school student, but my education didn’t change my fundamentalist Christian beliefs one bit. It wasn’t education, but life experience that changed my mind much later in life.
To imagine that MOST of the teachers and others affiliated with non-religious universities in the United States are pushing the viewpoint that Christianity is stupid is just blatantly ridiculous. It’s one of the most potent scare tactics that fundies use to keep their children isolated and ignorant, which is very sad and very, very dangerous for our country.
Yes, college-level science professors are going to teach the proofs for evolution, since it is the unifying theory of biology, but that course of study doesn’t have to negate all of Christianity - though it will show that the literal interpretation of Genesis does not hold water. They’re also going to teach that the earth is a sphere, so I guess the flat-earthers will be insulted, too.
What’s happening is that we’re getting this undereducated sub-class of homeschoolers and Christian fundy college students who really don’t learn the truth about science. And that is a dangerous thing for their future - and all of ours as well.
Comment by: Siamang
4You know, I see a lot of conflating language in Pastor Tim’s quotes here. He seems to use “belief in God” and “christianity” interchangably.
I don’t think they’re the same thing. The majority of the population of the world would say that they’re not the same thing.
A vision of Christianity that includes a literal belief in Genesis is potentially falsifiable by science.
The existence of God is not potentially falsifiable by science.
More largely, he’s talking about the culture of the world of acedemia.
It seems to me that organized churching in this country is more hostile to science than the scientific culture is hostile to religion.
If church-going people think they’re getting the short schrift at secular colleges, they should engage more. My point of view is, if you want to change that culture, stop being afraid to send your children to a non-christian college. Engage.
Comment by: Julie Marie
5Karen,
I agree with your point about paranoia from the RR regarding academicians. I’ve graduated from two different universities, both public, one with a degree in communications - heavy on the humanities - and another with a degree in nursing - heavy on the science. God didn’t really ever come up. but then, I taking microbiology and chemistry and biochem, not biology per se. I did see some questions in my husbands philosophy course that could get a fundy thinking, but the instructor didn’t push the point much at all. He never even came close to intimating it was foolish to be a believer - he just asked a provocative question or two and let it drop. (it was an online course, and I couldn’t keep my nose out of it…)
Your life experience point is a good one. If a belief system isn’t working, ANYONE, regardless of level of education, is going to examine it closely.
Comment by: Siamang
6“Darwinianism”?
Sorry, I’ve got to call that one word out for a few well-deserved eye-rolls.
To use “darwinism” or this new term,
(perhaps a slip of the tongue) “darwinianism” in this way is to attempt to somehow equate the acceptance of evolutionary biology to a religion or a philosophy. It is not a religion, nor is it a philosophy.
Kids are not indoctrinated in “Darwinism” when they attend science class. They are taught “evolutionary biology.”
“Darwinism” as the word is used by creationists and IDists, seems to mean “the belief that God didn’t create mankind.”
It’s a boogeyman that was invented by critics of evolution. I would ask how Pastor Tim meant the term if he meant it differently than how I characterized it.
I don’t think such an idea exists in science. Science absolutely cannot falsify God’s existence. Science absolutely cannot prove that God didn’t create mankind. I don’t recall ever reading a scentific journal or paper or attended any science class where any such an idea was promoted.
I’d like someone to show that this “Darwinianism” exists before they rail against its promotion in the world of science.
Comment by: Karen
7Siamang said
I agree. I really admire Tim for inviting Hemant and actually giving him a chance to talk in church. That was great of him. But hearing some of the stuff Tim said during the dialogs really surprised me, particularly the creationism bits. He’s much more fundamentalist than I would have imagined from the outset.
Which, perhaps, lends him even more credit for opening the pulpit to Hemant - and then not using his authority to beat the Friendly Atheist about the head with the scriptures.
Comment by: Siamang
8Here’s a tasty inversion that actually clears up the question better:
“Why do religiously-experienced people believe in academia less?”
The stuff they touched on in III tells me that in interview two they got into a row on creationism. Just the stuff Tim said in number three tells me he thinks that equal time should be given in science class to the christian creation story.
It makes me wonder, what (if any)is the level of science education of Pastor Tim?
Should we have an ebay auction: “Send a Christian Pastor to two semesters of evolutionary biology class”?
Comment by: Karen
9Julie wrote:
This was my experience also, Julie. If anything, most profs bent over backwards NOT to offend or discredit religious belief of any kind. And several of my professors were also devoted fundamentalist and evangelical Christians, and said so inside and outside of class.
The other thing about non-Christian universities is the plethora of campus Christian ministries that absolutely thrive there. At the public university I attended, there were at least half a dozen, between Campus Crusade, Inter-Varsity Fellowship, BASIC, YWAM, etc. I look back now and cringe at some of the things we did (that I would now call unethical evangelism), but in truth some of the best times of my life were spent with the other students in those groups. That’s where I met my husband and made lifelong friends.
So assuming that Christian kids will lose their faith, and have NO backup for their beliefs, because of the evils of higher education is just silly, and demonstrably wrong. And it robs young people of the possibility that their minds might actually open up to higher-order thinking - whether that involves deepening their faith or leading them away from it in the long run.
Christians claim to trust god, but they sure are scared of the world and its influence, aren’t they? Wasn’t there a verse about “greater is he who is in me, than he who is in the world”? Why the reluctance to live like that’s really true?
Sorry, rant over. This one really touched a nerve :-)
Comment by: Siamang
10ooookay…. pastor tim just called The Big Bang “evolution.”
I must stop listening before my brain explodes.
I’ll thread the rest of my comments here:
http://off-the-map.org/ebayatheist/viewtopic.php?p=5834#5834
Comment by: Eliza
11Yeah, my jaw dropped through the floor on that one, too.
It was a shocker, but also an “aha” moment - if he thinks evolution presents an explanation for the origin of the universe that claims it happened without God then of course he would object to it.
The scientific data and observations about evolution don’t have anything to say about whether or not God was involved.
There are Christians who believe that evolution was a method God used to create species, & who feel their religious beliefs are quite compatible with evolution. I’d say those people have a clearer understanding of what evolution is…
Comment by: Ir
12Many of the people at the churches I’ve spend significant time at in Chicagoland have been quite highly educated. An evangelical church which is ‘a roomful of blue collar folks’ is not something I’m familiar with. But since the mother of the respondent who wrote that goes to Parkview, I figure that he/she knows what the socio-economic demographic of Parkview is.
Re: Pastor Tim’s comments about secular universities: suppose he’s right and students really are bombarded with the message “Your faith is stupid”. Then what Pastor Tim said implies that either a) college students are not very thinking people because they abandon their faith just because someone tells them it’s stupid or b) the Christian faith has no substance to it, because the students have no rebuttal to being told ‘your faith is stupid’ and therefore have no option but to abandon their faith.
I’m surprised he would imply either one of these things.
Back to the ‘bombarding’ assumption - it disappoints me when Christians talk this way. Jesus told his followers to go out among people who weren’t followers and be ’salt and light’. That instruction makes no sense if when they do go out all that will happen is they are bombarded with ‘your faith is stupid’ and lose their faith.
When Christians say things that scare other Christians away from being among people who aren’t Christians, they are encouraging them to disobey Jesus’ instructions that Christians are to go out. How can that be right?
Comment by: damannion
13Ego? Fear (i.e., “I can’t PROVE it)? True belief that everything that cannot be explained is so because science has yet to discover the explanation? Because now they believe in Buddah?
It’s a generalization to equate “blue collar” with “academically inexperienced.”
I don’t think equating Darwinism with propaganda is helpful to a dialog….
doreen
Comment by: Eliza
14This really surprised me, too. I wondered if he was thinking of peer pressure to conform, rather than actual loss of faith?
Good question, Ir. Very closely related to this, I’ve been wondering how remaining in Christian communities - socializing through church, attending only Christian colleges, etc - fits with the teaching to go out into the world. It seems like it increases comfort level, but also only increases the divide.
Comment by: Cordelia
15Just one quick observation. Isaac Newton was not a Christian in any traditional sense of the word. He didn’t believe in the Trinity and refused to take Communion, even on his deathbed. He wrote a lot about religious topics, but if you read the writings you get the sense of someone desperately trying to understand something that doesn’t make sense to him. In my opinion, he probably would’ve identified as an atheist if (a)he had lived long enough to make the intellectual break with a system that had dominated all thought for the previous 1700 years and (b)he would not have been executed for it.
Just some food for thought…
Comment by: Ruth
16Just a thought while passing through this page….perhaps there is a greater chance that a certain type of person is drawn to be a scientist, and that may NOT be one who has strong Christian beliefs and values.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
17Thanks for your comment, Ruth.
I think ideas such as yours should be considered and tested in any serious look at why proportionately less scientists are Christians than other people.
Comment by: JG
18I’m slightly surprised that the conclusion from these “statistics” appears to have been accepted at face value without question.
Given that these three percentages have been produced by different organisations, how do we know that all three have used the same criteria for “belief in God” and asked the same questions. What sort of sample was used in each case?
For example see http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=237 which I found by doing a google search. This comments:
I’d be interested in seeing some proper research on the extent to which being a scientist affects whether one believes in God or not.
Clearly many of the “90%” don’t attend church. I suspect that scientists with degrees or Nobel Laureates are less likely to amongst those who have a vague belief in God but which doesn’t result in them participating in a faith group.
If 7% of people in the National Academy of Sciences state that they believe in God compared with 10% alleged attendance at church), this tends to confirm my view that neither intellect or involvement in science has much relevance to the question of whether or not someone believes.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
19JG wrote:
JG I don’t understand a) where you got the 10% from, here and b) what it is about those two percentages alone, 7% and 10%, that tells you involvement in science is not correlated negatively with belief in God.
I think I must not be following what you’re saying. Feel free to elaborate.
Comment by: JG
2010% comes from the extract included in previous post:
Albeit UK rather than USA. But this my point. There is the saying “lies, damned lies and statistics”!
My belief about the effect or non effect of involvement in science is based on my own experience and background rather than on any statistics.
Given that in the UK, only a small proportion of people regularly attend church, 7% comes across to me as a high percentage, not a low one.
Comment by: Stephan
21I have my own theory for this (which should surprise no one, and cause many to moan).
Education very often in our society equates to wealth, or at least a greater possibility for wealth. If, as I believe, there is an innate hunger for God, I believe it is possible to numb this hunger, at least temporarily, with material things. Since more educated people have more material wealth it would be much more possible for them to accomplish this numbing.
Just as eating junk food can fill you up without nourishing you, material things can temporarily satisfy you without really nourishing you spiritually.
Comment by: Siamang
22I know many struggling, working-class, well-educated people who are non-religious.
I know well-off, less educated people who are religious.
The common atheist argument turns that on its head. It goes like this:
People hunger to understand the world they live in. This hunger can be sated by easy answers like “God did it in six literal days, kids. The Behemoth is a dinosaur,” etc. If the hunger to understand all the wonders of the universe is sated by reading ONE WHOLE BOOK, why go to college to read all those other books?
Mainstream religion in this country wallows in anti-intellectualism. It’s a badge of honor to them, and they wear it proudly.
To read upthread, Pastor Tim really wasn’t ashamed in the least of his terrible science education. Rather, he thinks his understanding of two chapters of Genesis trumps all the geniuses at Harvard any day of the week.
He’s gonna learn them sciencey-folks a thing or three!
Comment by: Stephan
23Wow, Siamang! Your main response to my post is that religious people are stupid. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
And regarding this:
Of course there are exceptions, but the whole point of this thread was that more educated people (typically more well off) tend to be less religious. I was attempting to address that. You were just insulting. I expect better from you.
Comment by: JG
24Stephan,
I don’t read Siamang’s response that way at all. His point about anti intellectualism is a valid one and one which merits a considered response which I may have a go at if time permits.
My position is that intellect is not a factor in determining whether or not someone is religious.
Christians should NOT be anti intellectual but are instead encouraged to love God with ALL their MIND, heart and soul, rather than leave their minds behind. (Matthew 22:37)
Comment by: Siamang
25Stephan wrote:
No I didn’t. I said that mainstream religion in America has an anti-intellectual streak in it.
Anti-intellectualism is a political and philosophical position. It does not equate to “stupidity”. I’m not saying people are religious because they’re stupid. I’m not saying people are stupid because they’re religious. I’m not saying that stupidity and religiosity are corollated.
But I do think, and I’m not the only one who has noticed this, that there is an anti-intellectual streak in mainstream Christianity in America. There is an anti-higher education streak, an anti public-education streak, an anti intellectual liberalism (not to mean political liberalism) streak. There is an anti-science streak, and that goes a mile wide, exhibit A: Pastor Tim Harlow above. Re-read what he said when talking to Hemant. My GOD, to think this man has a position of supposed authority. Please keep him as far away from children as possible. He’s actively discouraging young people from going to college, except to go to a religious college and to get a religious degree. And he’s the leader of a megachurch.
Exhibits B-ZZZZZ: We’ll start with Rick Warren and go down the list from there. I can merely point out that polls show the majority of Christians somehow agreeing with Pastor Rick, and the majority of the leaders of the evangelical movement that dinosaurs and man were co-existant in the very recent past.
The cause isn’t stupidity. It’s rather an attitude that says “science isn’t a valid way to understand the world we find ourselves in.” It’s an attitude that says liberal inquiry is suspect. It’s an attitude that says “the outside world is hostile to religious belief, and young people must be shielded from this propaganda and indoctrination.”
You addressed it by saying that better-educated people are less religious because of greater materialism. I think that’s a facile connection. Most college students I knew were poor and deep in debt. They were gaining an education, and at some point they will be better off economically. But I think we should address the concept that young religious people don’t WANT to go to college for fear of losing their faith. Pastor Tim, above said straight out that higher education in science attempts to indoctrinate students in an anti-spiritual worldview.
This is the anti-intellectualism that frankly should be scandalous.
Comment by: Stephan
26Agreed. Unless my son fulfills his dream of getting signed by a major league team out of high school, he will certainly be going to college. And I am already priming my kids to question any anti-science streak they may find in their church education.
I’m sorry I took your comments the wrong way.
Comment by: Siamang
27I wasn’t worried about you. ;-)
NP! :-)
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
28Siamang wrote;
I definitely agree.
Comment by: Eliza
29A fairly high proportion of physicians are theists. I’ve seen the numbers somewhere, but can’t find them now.
I’m on the admissions committee for the (secular, state) medical school where I work; it’s not uncommon for us to be interviewing applicants from Christian colleges & universities, and/or who list their church activities, and/or who mention God in their personal statement. They’re free to mention religious beliefs and activities; we can’t bring religion up during the interview, of course, but the applicant’s religiosity is not used as a factor for or against them as candidates for admission. For many, religion is clearly a big part of their motivation for going into a helping profession, & that’s understood as a very reasonable motivation.
I’ll admit, I’m fascinated to read applications from students from Christian colleges & stumble across those who got all A’s except in their religious studies classes; or who majored in Biology & took a class called “Evolution” (what would that course be like?); or who have letters of recommendation from members of their religious community. It’s just interesting - so different from my own experience.