Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 08.07.2006 /
In a recent comment on Hope and Transformation, Bill wrote:
Speaking of 12 Step Programs
Alcoholics Anonymous routinely reads their Step 2 which states:
…….Let’s look first at the case of the one who says he won’t believe - the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage…….
This theology is much more then just stating the need of a Higher Power. AA is saying that Atheists are basically bad people.
Comment by: David S
1I don’t care what AA thinks about atheists any more than I care what other theistic groups think about atheists.
However I do care that AA and other 12-step programs actually hurt the addict and engender life-long addiction rather than recovery.
If you’re ever going to not drink (or be able to drink responsibly) you have to have to somehow find in yourself the power and discipline to not take that drink. This should be obvious. Yet the first thing 12 step programs do is to convince you that you can’t do that. Then as a bonus they try to forever get to you to submit to their addictive/cult-like codependent system of similar addicts who sit around reaffirming to each other how they can’t actually recover.
If you’re in trouble with substance abuse AVOID 12-step programs and instead look into alternatives that can empower you to actually recover. (Rational Recovery is one but I’m sure there’s others).
Comment by: Siamang
2FWIW, I have people close to me who have succeeded in 12 step programs. These are people with no faith beliefs.
I don’t know what the success rate is, or what systems provide for better success rates.
But purely anecdotally, it can work.
Anyone have a link to a scholarly survey of effecacy?
Comment by: David S
3Siamang, of course people can recover. People recover all the time with or without AA. They have to reach a point where they themselves can not take a drink (or drink responsibly). However you seldom hear about those that recover without AA because they just recover and get on with their lives while AA has the whole system that spreads the cult of AA. I’d like to see some studies done… I suspect people who recover with AA would recover much faster with something that didn’t tell them the way they will eventually recover isn’t open to them.
Read the websites of some alternatives sometime. It’s interesting.
Comment by: Bill
4Hi David
Well AA is the only program available in my County and beyond.
Some people do better not from the High Power in AA, but from listening to others. If any of bateful, outdated original literature keeps people away, that is a shame.
Bill
Comment by: David S
5The idea is to get people to look at something that will empower them and help them recover. That might as well include looking critically at AA. Even if you only have AA as a choice for support you can be aware which aspects engenger addiction rather than cure it, and which aspects disempower you rather than empower you to recover.
Comment by: Daniel Morgan
6David S,
I can strongly identify with you feelings — I used to abuse drugs and alcohol, I now enjoy alcohol only in moderation. The reason is not due to AA or Jesus, but to a serious commitment to discipline and a stronger attachment to the good things in life than to the frivolous.
Comment by: http://hometown.aol.com/xyi111
7You have an outstanding good and well structured site. I enjoyed browsing through it.-pharma
Comment by: Pam
8I am a spiritual person and an atheist who has been in AA for 3 years. I have managed to drink on average once a month in those 3 years, which may be as good as it gets for me. I don’t believe in a higher power, I haven’t been able to totally quit drinking, yet I’m frightened to quit AA. I’m confused and would welcome some feedback.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
9Pam, do you need to quit AA? I would keep going if it’s helpful.
Comment by: nodrog
10Pam,
it is possible to recover and stay an athiest in AA. It does take some strength to be able to voice your non-beliefs however - and it seems so more in the US (I’m in Australia). Maybe you need to sit down (with a piece of paper) and work out for yourself what parts of the program help and which parts hinder. I have a strong belief that beating yourself up over shortcomings is not a helpful way to work it - it hasn’t helped me - this doesn’t necessarily mean that you don’t do a fourth step - but treat it as en exercise in discovering what actions work for you in life and what actions cause you distress. I have also had to seek a lot of outside help (including taking antidepressants) to treat my depression as well.
Anyway you can email me on NodrogATtpgDOTcomDOTau if you need any help,
Ciao
Comment by: Amie Davis
11Anchorage,
Comment by: mark odolecki
12Let me know!
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
13As someone who has previously been in a 12 step program, and who has also worked with academics who are at the cutting edge of treatment programs for those suffering from addiction, I have a tiny bit of understanding of the issues brought up here. The discussion is fascinating.
My understanding is that the bottom line is if you actually get diagnosed with an addictive disorder, the long term sobriety/recovery rate is astoundingly low no matter what treatment modality you use–less than 30%. This is a fairly heartbreaking statistic, and it means you have to be able to cope with a lot of failure if you are going to work regularly helping people in these situations. Having been exposed to some of these people, it’s ongoingly amazed me how much trouble and pain they seem to have in their lives and yet continue to function at *any* level.
It makes sense to me that AA and the 12 steps are going to work really well for *some* people. And that more … empirically based treatments are going to work really well for other people. Twelve Step stuff used to work amazingly well for me, and it helped me a lot during a time when I was fairly desperate. Now I can’t really cope with twelve step meetings because of all the religious language. I’ve found other ways to continue to grow as a person.
Thank you for starting the trhead! =)
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
14Here’s an interesting web page talking about the question of efficacy from an empirical perspective (this perspective is of course thorougly modern, which leads to certain questions for someone like me =):
http://www.peele.net/lib/efficace.html
Comment by: Martin Gugino
15Haven’t been to a 12-step meeting since 1991. I think that they are wonderful and everyone should go to a few (open) meetings. The smoke won’t kill you and you might win the 50-50. It is impressive to see so many people trying to change their lives, when so many others are so satisfied. Most things are easier to do with help than to do alone, and the harder it is do do something, the more sense it makes to band together.
As far as a higher power, if I imagined that I was the highest power, that would drive me to drink.