Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 09.05.2006 /
In comment #13 of Understanding Lostness Matt Casper wrote:
[A]re belief systems like Christianity unifying or divisive? [...] I would have to say that religious belief systems are, by nature, divisive, because they all have parameters for what’s “right” and “wrong,” which invariably, inevitably means conflict.
Being an atheist is an easier and more peaceful existence, because I do not need to sway anyone to my belief system. Nor do I see people/events through the filter of my belief system.
I look at the facts as they arise. I won’t lie: I do have a few “ethical litmus tests” that I use on the sources of said facts (e.g., are you a bigot? are you violent? are you intellectually curious?), be they from someone I meet in the street, or some talking head on the tube.
I understand the comfort a belief system provides: it codifies your existence, and gives you a framework for how to behave in most every situation. But it’s a double-edged sword as it forces you to 1) filter everything you take in through your beliefs or 2) filter out anything that doesn’t fit your beliefs.
And I think that is what makes belief systems divisive. They have an incredible impact on what you see and hear. They make people unable to communicate or listen without an agenda.
Which is why I think that without belief systems like Christianity, Judaism, Muslimism, etc.—and regardless of whether there is or isn’t a god—the world would be a more peaceful, objective place.
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Comment by: Mike O
1 09/6/06 3:39 AM | Comment Link |Belief systems are definitely divisive … they have to be IMO. The question isn’t whether or not they are divisive, but whether being divisive is right or wrong.
I personally don’t like the word divisive, but that’s probably because I’m coming from the Christian perspective, so I’m one that is divisive - at least in this context. I would argue that I’m not divisive - I’m set apart. I want to include all who will have me. But for those who choose not to join me, does it make me divisive that they didn’t agree or were simply not interested?
For purposes of this post, I’ll use the phrase set apart. I know it rings a little off-key because it sounds like I’m setting myself higher than the rest, but I’m not … it’s more like seperating the green M&Ms from the rest. They’re not better, they’re just green.
With all that said, is being divisive (set apart) right or wrong?
If there is no god, being divisive would be wrong in this context.
If there is a god, whoever he/she/it may be, the followers of that god really would be somehow set apart from the non-followers, giving the appearance of division. Set apart by that god, not the followers.
I am a Christian. If I am right about who God is, I am set apart by Him as one of his followers, and being set apart is not wrong … if I’m right. And if God is the one setting me apart, not myself.
If someone is a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or what have you, being set apart is not wrong … if they are right and their god has set them apart.
For the atheist/agnostic, there is no set apart, so being divisive would be wrong because there is nothing driving the division except yourself … if you are right that there is no god.
This question was asked from the perspective that there is no god ..From that perspective, while I do not personally hold it to be true, for me to add a religious division when there really is no god would be wrong … if there’s no god.
On the other hand, if there really is a god as I see him (Christian), being unifying as proposed here would be wrong as it would nullify the setting apart he has done. If, of course, I’m right about God.
So whether or not being divisive is right or wrong, or even whether unifying is right or wrong, depends on whether or not there is a god. And on that point, we don’t agree.
Comment by: Marty
2 09/6/06 8:47 AM | Comment Link |Yesterday I sent an e-mail to a local leader of a Christian program to work with International Students. Here is what I wrote:
“……….Wanting to know and understand more - I went to the ISI websites - first the local site and then the national site. I was/am totally comfortable with the Friendship Partner Volunteer page http://www.isionline.org/friendship_partners.htm
But then I went to Ministry Representative page http://www.isionline.org/minrep_profile.htm and found information that from our perspective is totally incongruent and probably eliminates us relative to working in this program. I realize that we would not be serving in this role - but it tells us what the focus of this program is - which appears to be to convert them to Christianity - rather than to unconditionally support them during their time in the United States and building bridges that will hopefully help make the world a better place.
The specific part that I am referencing is:
How do you know if the Ministry Representative role would be a fit for you? Ask yourself these important questions:
Am I drawn to initiate relationships with visitors from other cultures?
Am I driven by a desire to see others reached with the Gospel of Jesus?
Do I know about and respect other cultures and their religious beliefs?
Am I energized by serving on a “team” that befriends international students, leads them into a relationship with Jesus Christ, and disciples them for service?
Our belief and experience suggests that “driven to see others reached with the Gospel of Jesus” and “leads them into a relationship with Jesus Christ and disciples them for service” is totally incongruent with “do I know about and respect other cultures and their religious beliefs?” I don’t see anything about listening to and learning from others beliefs, respectful dialogue, etc.
I am heavily involved with the Santa Barbara Interfaith Initiative http://www.interfaithinitiativesbc.org/mission/index.html where I think that some wonderful things are taking place and breakthroughs happening as people of various faiths are learning to come together, listen to each other, dialogue and gain respect for one another. That has been particularly poignant as the Muslim community has moved from being a token part of the group to now providing great leadership.
Thank you for taking in these thoughts. It appears that our approach is different than the ISI approach. We have a great deal of passion for supporting the local international students and maybe you can suggest another group that is more compatible with what we believe leads to helping make the world a better place.”
I just learned last night that the young (30 year old) Muslim leader (Board Member of the Interfaith Initiative) put together a picnic with three Muslim families and three families from our Presbyterian Church - and I am told that it was a wonderful experience for all.
My agenda is to look for ways that people of diverse beliefs can come togehter, get to know each other, listen to each other, learn from each other - which brings about liking each other and respecting each other.
When we approach people of different beliefs with the desire to learn and listen as much as to teach and convert (and be totally genuine about it) I think we will be building bridges rather than dividing.
Comment by: Marty
3 09/7/06 2:09 PM | Comment Link |Here was Tim’s reply to me:
Hi Marty,
Thank you for your thoughtful e-mail sharing your concerns about your involvement in our ministry.
In our outreach to international students we never want to push our Christian faith on the students. So in that way we do respect their own faith, traditions, and cultures.
However, as a ministry within the evangelical framework we do believe that the most wonderful thing in life is knowing God’s Son, Jesus Christ and his grace. Not only that, but we believe only through Jesus’ act on the cross and his resurrection is anyone made right with God and given the gift of eternity with Him.
Friendship Partners are asked to pray for their students - that they would have an interest in our faith as they see Christ’s love in us. We hope that God gives us an open door to share with them about Jesus in a natural way.
I hope this helps explain where we are coming from. If you think this is not the right ministry for you that is fine.
Thanks again for letting me know your thoughts.
Blessings,
Tim
Comment by: Marty
4 09/7/06 2:12 PM | Comment Link |Here was my reply to Tim:
Dear Tim:
Thank you for your reply and I honor you and your beliefs and appreciate the great things that you are doing. Our calling is somewhat different than yours and hopefully we are all playing a role doing what we can to help the world be a better place.
I recently went to a Lifewater International meeting http://www.lifewater.org/ and went thinking that I wished they were more inclusive and came away having tremendous respect for what they are doing and feeling that their work is best served by a program and belief system that is probably the same as yours. Regardless, I have become a good friend and advisor/supporter to Dan Stevens, their Executive Director - who is a great guy with a very special program. I look forward to speaking on behalf of Lifewater at Goleta Pres in early October.
One of our great experiences at Goleta Pres is that each year we host the Fulbright Scholars who spend their summer with the Religious Studies Department at UCSB. This year - two thirds of the thirty or so were Muslims.
Warmest Regards,
Marty & Lynn
Comment by: Eliza
5 09/17/06 8:48 AM | Comment Link |In the min_rep link you provided above, Marty, there’s also this statement:
I’m saddened to see the word friend in quotes…sure does imply that the entire reason for developing a relationship with the other person, & learning about their culture, is to bring him/her to Christ. (Why would you bother otherwise? [/irony])
Comment by: Marty
6 09/17/06 2:41 PM | Comment Link |Eliza - in this case I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his putting “friend” in quotes was not meant to denote that this is his or their entire reason for developing the relationship. If I had put it in quotes, and I might of - I would not have meant “entire reason”. If you are correct - that putting it in quotes means “entire reason”, I (and possibly he) am not refined (smart) enough to draw that distinction.
I also wonder if people really think/believe that that sort of thing is what they really think. My guess is that the pressure in some Christians circles forces those kind of words to come out of their mouths - but I suspect, at least in many cases, that is not what they really think - and are afraid to say so to their Christian peers.
Comment by: Karen
7 09/21/06 12:19 PM | Comment Link |My former church participated in a program very much like this (in fact, it might have been this program itself) and it bothered me greatly, Marty. I think I mentioned it here, in fact.
Some ethical problems with the program I learned about:
1) The international students and their families were told only that they were going on a “summer cultural exchange” as part of an educational program. That was blatantly dishonest. How would you feel if your impressionable teenager got involved in a program with a hidden agenda to convert them to Islam, or Hinduism? I’d be very angry.
2) While the families undoubtedly developed friendships and had positive experiences with their international students, their true motivation for participating was primarily evangelism. That was the number-one goal for our church families who signed up. That’s not respectful of other cultures and religions, and seems at odds with the ideals of international exchange programs in general.
3) Some students did “convert” to evangelical Protestantism during their stay in the US, and later reported back that they had family problems over this when they returned home. Rather than see this as an unfortunate development, our church leaders triumphed in it, quoting bible verses about how faith separates families, followers of Jesus should leave father and mother behind, etc.
Very disturbing stuff. :-(
Comment by: Julie Marie
8 09/22/06 11:27 AM | Comment Link |I am so sad at the callouness people adopt in the name of religion, and that is something I have struggled with for years. Its as though people look at tragedy and need to make sense of it. I saw the heartlessness inherent in predeterminism first hand - the “it was all meant to be” school of thought - growing up. I wanted to shreik NO IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN, GOOD PEOPLE GET HURT, MEAN PEOPLE GET AHEAD…but that doesn’t mean it was “meant to be.” It just IS. And its up to us to do something about it.
I’m watching the end stages of a life lived by the “meant to be” ethic, and I tell you what…its pathetic. I struggle to be kind when what I really want to do it pull out the flamethrower when that drivel starts pouring forth. I want to say so badly God didn’t do this to you man…your philosophy did it to you. It didn’t have to be this way. Its this way because you let things unravel until there was nothing left but a heap of string. What you are expeiencing are the natural consequences of the decisions you have made, nothing more.
Thus far I have not gone there. I’ve been able to check myself. I try to do neutral “Eliza Style” questions to redirect the conversation.