The Reason-Driven Life

Comment by: Ir

Thanks for your comment, Hemant. Robert Price seems fun and he’s clearly very articulate and insightful, based on what I’ve read in the book so far. I can’t say he’s any ‘friendlier’ than Dawkins but I’m interested enough in what he has to say that that wouldn’t stop me reading this book.

I expect the same is true of ‘The God Delusion’ (which we also purchased today) - in other words, I’ll probably read it even if I would have preferred Dawkins didn’t refer to belief in God as a ‘delusion’.

Comment by: Julie Marie

my former church was purpose driven. the philosophy was a huge factor in my re-examining my what I was basing my beliefs on, because the constant exhortations to evangelize, to do good for the express purpose of evangelizing set off the gongs in my head. I couldn’t put my finger on what was so objectionable at the time - but it so upset me that to my horror, I burst into tears at one “40 days of Purpose” meeting when I was pushed on why I felt this type of evangelism emphatically not for me. I couldn’t articulate why, I was way too steeped in fundamentalism, but I knew I just couldn’t, just wouldn’t, go forth with this agenda.

Three months later I discovered Off The Map. I can’t begin to say how thankful I am for that discovery, not just for me, but for my child too. I had the best intentions in the world as a mother (still do) but I would have sent him straight down the fundy road. I’m still sliding all over the bench - and sometimes I fall off of it, but at least the cords that kept me from thinking things through have been broken for good.

Comment by: Ir

Julie Marie, wow, how interesting that the PDL was part of what pushed you to the ‘breaking point’, or rather the ‘breaking away point’.

Comment by: Julie Marie

Julie Marie, wow, how interesting that the PDL was part of what pushed you to the ‘breaking point’, or rather the ‘breaking away point’

yeah…didn’t see that one coming ;)

I found PDL just too boring!

okay I’ll fess up. I bought the book and the companion workbook, but left them on the shelf with intentions to “serious up” about it. Then came the “Purpose Driven Community” and “40 Days of Purpose” and somehow, when we had to clear the bookshelves to move them when we got new carpeting, those books wound up in the trash. Yes the trash. Not even the “give to goodwill” box.

Comment by: Siamang

Yeah, I noticed Julia wrote that.

You know, I totally misunderstood the book when I looked at it.

My first impression was that it would be its own book. Like a self help guide to building a reason-driven life for yourself.

But upon looking at it, I noticed it was really a criticism of Warren’s book, and not a guide for atheist living. I admit to only giving it a couple of minutes and a few page-flips.

I think there may be a need, however, for a book along the lines I was expecting. A guide to leading an ethical, fulfilled, honest and giving life away from faith.

Comment by: Siamang

Yes, but I still think there’s a need for a book here. Not that I like guides to living… I don’t. But I would like the bold idea of such a guide existing.

Comment by: Karen

Julie Marie wrote:

my former church was purpose driven. the philosophy was a huge factor in my re-examining my what I was basing my beliefs on, because the constant exhortations to evangelize, to do good for the express purpose of evangelizing set off the gongs in my head. I couldn’t put my finger on what was so objectionable at the time - but it so upset me that to my horror, I burst into tears at one “40 days of Purpose” meeting when I was pushed on why I felt this type of evangelism emphatically not for me. I couldn’t articulate why, I was way too steeped in fundamentalism, but I knew I just couldn’t, just wouldn’t, go forth with this agenda.

Wow, interesting. So do you think there was some powerful psychological reaction you were having, but you couldn’t put your finger on what it is or why?

I can relate to this as I think back over the years and wonder why I wasn’t questioning more and being more curious as an FE Xian! How could I buy teaching that was really so far-out, and sometimes even kooky (like, the world is going to end in 1983)?

Now I’m starting to realize, as I’m getting more distance, that I was often questioning, or uncomfortable, or challenging. I just learned to keep that to myself, and keep pushing it down in my brain.

No wonder I was ripe for the mid-life crisis, huh? ;-)

Comment by: Julie Marie

Now I’m starting to realize, as I’m getting more distance, that I was often questioning, or uncomfortable, or challenging.

Karen - how long have you been away from FE xianity?

Comment by: Ir

Hey Karen, that’s about when I quit church! My last Sunday was the last Sunday in September last year.

I think (early!) midlife was a factor in my change in beliefs also.

Comment by: Karen

Helen:

Hey Karen, that’s about when I quit church! My last Sunday was the last Sunday in September last year.

Interesting coincidence. I’ll tell you why I remember the date of my last attendance so precisely.

That first week in Sept. was a traumatic time, as I’m sure you remember. I shed a lot of tears while glued to the TV, watching helpless, stranded people agonize over their sick grandparents who couldn’t get their medicine and their hungry babies who had no formula. I was just overwhelmed by feelings of powerlessness and injustice.

We went to the “contemporary” service that weekend, which featured a praise band instead of the choir and tended to have a perpetually upbeat tone. I was really in a bad mood but I thought maybe there would be some contemplative moments that might help lift my spirits.

Unfortunately, that entire service included only a throwaway mention of the week’s events. I think someone threw in a “God help the poor people in the Gulf Coast” during one of the prayers, and that was it.

The rest went along just as always, with big smiles and lots of “Praise the Lords” and people lifting their hands in the air while singing songs like, “God is so goooooodddd …” and I just got madder and madder. When it was over, I turned to my husband and said, “That’s it. I can’t go here anymore,” and I explained how out-of-touch and insensitive all the happy talk felt and how much it offended me. He understood and let me off the hook from attending after that.

Comment by: Ir

Karen, I completely understand why being at a service where the hurricane was barely mentioned would be the last straw. It makes church seem so detached from reality…

Sorry - I keep forgetting that your husband goes to church. That gave you a reason for going that I didn’t have, since I’m married to an atheist. No wonder you kept going. I kept going for other reasons, like, I was afraid of becoming too socially isolated if I quit - I was afraid that might adversely affect my mental health.

Comment by: Ir

NCxian - I love that quote! I find Christine’s writing soooo insightful.

Comment by: Karen

NC:

Karen, this reminded of the quote by Christine Wicker that Jim posted over at Doable Evangelism.

Yes, nice synergy, NC. Thanks for pointing it out. :-)

Julie:

All I could do was hold him and say yes, those people were mean and that story makes Mommy sad too… He was only 3 back then, and a very tender 3 at that…he didn’t have any concept of unfairness or cruelty…I didn’t think it was necessary to go into that part of the story yet, and when I talked to a friend of mine about it, her opinion was that since its central to the faith, it was okay.

Awwww … poor little guy. Age 3 seems unnecessarily young for that teaching, particularly if they went into it in detail. I can’t imagine that most 3-year-olds would even begin to grasp it anyway, so what’s the point of introducing an upsetting concept before they’re able to even entertain it in their minds?

I would say my kids weren’t taught anything specific about the crucifixion until they were at least in elementary school - maybe first or second grade.

Comment by: Siamang

That’s terrible, Julie. As the father of a 3 year old, I wince at that story. I know I’m trying to instill social positive behavior in my daughter. I don’t want her to start distrusting people before she has a chance to learn the positive aspects of trusting people. In other words, I’m trying my hardest not to raise a misantrope!

My daughter is attending a Methodist pre-school. But there is no religious education component to it, and the Pastor of the church is a friend of ours, so we don’t expect that to change.

But your story highlights what caused me an initial jitter about taking my daughter to that school. Luckily knowing the pastor helped allay that!

Comment by: Julie Marie

Siamang,

I’m still wincing a little bit. But as far as you raising a misanthrope…somehow, I think the daughter of Mr. “I Love Paris” is going to grow up to love as well. :)

Comment by: Karen

Benjamin,

Interesting to know that someone else had a similar experience in church after the hurricane. I bet more than a handful of people reacted like we did.

That’s really cool that you were able to turn the “HHJJ” talk into something more substantive. In my experience, HHJJ was like a “Happy Face” mask that people in church felt they had to wear in order to validate their devotion, and because they felt like they’d be condemned for “taking their eyes off Jesus” if they came to church with a negative attitude.

In the rare moments when the HHJJ mask came off during bible study or retreats, there was usually a whole lot of hurt and even despair lurking underneath. But those were the times when Christian “fellowship” really took on meaning, for me at least.

The Christian fad that was really big around the time I left (before PDL) was called “Experiencing God.” EVERYONE was doing the workbook and reading the book. I didn’t get a ton out of it, but I was probably already in rebellious mode by that time. ;-)

In my childhood Sunday school, we routinely pledged allegiance first to the American flag, then to the Christian flag and then to the bible. Patriotism and Christianity were completely entwined in the teaching.

Comment by: David H

I stopped saying the pledge as a junior in my Pennsylvania public high school. A few raised eyebrows was the only response. Just a few years ago some midwestern kids got expelled for the same thing.

I got hung up on “one nation under God.” It was so obviously untrue I stood up one day and just decided I couldn’t say it anymore. The God and country thing has been eating at me ever since. I’m probably a bit of a radical on the subject, in that I think Christians need to give greater value to citizenship in the kingdom of God.

One of the growing problems in the US is that many of the big God and country proponents believe that it is OK to be unGodly in the service of their country. I believe that if you pledge your life to Christ then you can’t ever say it is OK to act unGodly. The ends can’t justify the means, but the means can corrupt the ends.

The American Christian nationalism running through PDL was only one of my problems with the book. We read through it one term in Sunday school and I filled my margins with questions and comments about the faulty logic and ersatz faith in the book.

But what really chaps me about the book is how many have been sold. One of my favorite Christian authors is Philip Yancey. He asks hard questions about his faith and doesn’t pretend to have all of the answers. I was in a large Border’s once and ran into a huge PDL display. There were dozens of copies of Warren’s books and other related to PDL. Yancey has written dozens of books, but after scouring the shelves I found just one copy of one book. As far as I’m concerned, if it can’t be faulted with anything else, PDL certainly takes up valuable shelf space in book stores that could be used by more useful books.

Comment by: Julie Marie

ok, so we have a new abbreviation going on here - to add to MTWABP and ROAA (make the world a better place and range of acceptable answers) we have HHJJ (happy happy joy joy).

communities will create their own languages, won’t they?

Comment by: NCxian

One of my favorite Christian authors is Philip Yancey.

David, have you read his new book on prayer? I have been trying to decide whether to get my reading group to try it out.

Comment by: David H

NCxian, I haven’t read Yancey’s new book. I didn’t even know it was out, truth be told. However, I just ran through the review and customer comments at Amazon. The last review, which was most negative, convinces me it is probaby a good book for a reading group or Sunday School discussion.

The writer faults Yancey for straying outside the fold (church tradition, modern fundementalism and even outside Christianity) in sources he cites for insight on prayer. He also is unhappy at Yancey’s hints about a God who doesn’t guide every bullet or bolt of lightning. Still he praises Yancey for attempting to deal with some of the deeply difficult issues about prayer.

That certainly seems like the stuff to spark a good discussion. And speaking just for myself, I would be worried if Yancey’s books were completely pleasing to Christian conservatives. I am heartened by his efforts to be searching and honest even if that alienates what was once a core constituency.

Comment by: benjamin ady

Karen–me too–we did that whole pledge to the American Flag, pledge to the “Christian flag”, and pledge to the Bible thing growing up…god “those people” in that little church and private school I grew up in still strike me as *so* scary. Occasionally I walk into a church service or some other gathering where something about the ambience or the clothing or something reminds me in some way of them and I get this almost panic thing going on at a very basic emotional level and I have to very methodically and gently calm myself.
Helen, if the pledge to the american flag wierds you out, you’d be really wierded out by the other two. Lots of American churches have both of these flags prominently displayed. My wife, who is from Australia and spent three years in UK as a child also finds it all quite strange. Here’s a picture and a little about the “Christian Flag”
I see that my intuitive avoidance of PDL was correct–that is, based on what’s been said here describing the book, I would have just found it really off putting had I read it.

Comment by: NCxian

That certainly seems like the stuff to spark a good discussion. And speaking just for myself, I would be worried if Yancey’s books were completely pleasing to Christian conservatives. I am heartened by his efforts to be searching and honest even if that alienates what was once a core constituency.

I have always found Yancey’s books to be good for a “mixed crowd” (somewhat liberal to somewhat conservative). His general approach is thoroughly orthodox, which encourages the conservative folks to join in, but he raises a lot of questions in a very thoughtful way. Reading his books with a group helps broaden the Range of Acceptable Answers, IMO. (Which is becoming my life’s work, apparently!)

For my own part, I am always blown away by his research. He reports in The Jesus I Never Knew that he sat in some seminary library for months and read through every book on Jesus! What is that old phrase–”great work if you can get it”?

Comment by: David H

Yancey has somewhat of a journalists background — former editor of Christianity Today. I have always been impressed by his journalistic approach to what he is writing. He doesn’t shrink at going to where the action is to source his writing. And he scares me with all of the pertinent references he can hold in his head. I have trouble getting to all of his books because of all the other books he reminds me I need to read.

Comment by: David H

Karen, I cousin of mine who would probably call himself a fundementalist, once told me that everything else in the world was attempting to indoctrinate his children. He felt he deserved first crack at that. He also told me that when kids are young they don’t know how to assess things properly to make decisions for themselves. Thus it was doubly important for him to indoctrinate them early on.

In some ways his heart seemed to be in the right place. And there was a grain of truth to his thought process, you don’t reason with a 2-year-old about why not to run into traffic, you simply tell them “no” and devote some effort to making sure they can’t ignore your no. However, with my own children I have hoped to provide them with a foundation and enough security to be able to withstand indoctrination from every corner — even mine.

Comment by: Roy Gathercoal

hello, all. There is so much going on here that strikes close to my heart.
I hope it is OK to join in a little.

I was also raised a fundamentalist. By the time I finished college (at a Christian school where the administration was pretty much fund., but the interesting faculty were not.) I had decided to dump the organized religion thing.

I hadn’t really lost faith–in fact my faith in God was probably better than ever–but I wasn’t so sure the church was even on the positive side of neutral. (I still have a much lower tolerance of “mindless fundamentalism” than does my wife, who grew up Roman Catholic, which the funds. were always trashing).

I did find a place I was comfortable, and where a lot of folks were good about nodding when the fundys talked, then getting back to paying attention when they quit and someone else spoke.

It was one of my “ahhhhhh” moments.

No more debates–no more pulling my hair out. . . I just keep remembering the old story about wrestling with a pig in the mud. Eventually you realize that you are just as muddy as the pig and that the pig likes it better. . .

Thanks for the breath of fresh air.