Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 10.05.2006 /
Mike O is planning a conversation at his church which people who aren’t Christians will be invited to. He posted these comments and questions on CatE:
It’s specifically not going to be a class, but a conversation. The hard part will be getting my pastor, if he co-leads with me (which he wants to do), to not hard-sell Christianity. Of course we would be most pleased if people would come to faith through this class. But the feel we’re at is to raise questions, not necessarily answer them. The author of the material calls it “gap theory,” in that it leaves some questions unanswered. What we don’t want is for us to come across as “the answer man.”
One piece of feedback I’ve gotten so far (we didn’t get it off the ground when we tried to start it this month) is why would a non-believer come to this to “just talk?” They can “just talk” with their friends. Somehow there has to be a desire to learn, not just talk, that is common among all people involved. And that has to include me.
Yes, the conversation will be directed from a Christian perspective, but I think if there is a desire to learn that is common among all, it should work better than the one you’re going to.
Would it be better to have a series (10 weeks) or just one night? I wonder why a non-believer would commit to a 10 week commitment at a church, but it does seem to work.
How do you wish the material was being presented in your class? What would make it interesting to you, and not so … churchy?
What’s the best way to market my idea to the unchurched? I want to appeal to people outside of our church. Do I need to know them personally, or would it work as a general invite, like yours was?
What pitfalls or Christian tendencies should I be aware of? I know how Christians like to do things. But how about regular people?
One more question … would it make sense to “seed” the group with non-Christians? By that I mean, personally invite people that will keep the discussion balanced? I’m not sure I’m willing to go there … I’m thinking and typing at the same time … but if I could find someone who was not a Christian, but not antagonistic … someone who would be willing to ask the questions I don’t know enough to ask, how would that play?
Comment by: Ir
1Mike, I think there are people out there who would like to participate in a genuine 2-way conversation of this sort. I think the issue would be, getting them to trust you that you really will let them participate.
Did you ever listen to the series of three ’sermons’ where the pastor, instead of preaching, held a conversation with Hemant in front of the whole congregation? I recommend listening to those as you think about how to have a conversation. (Not because you need to copy what they did but just for ideas) You could even use them in your church maybe. I think they are going to make a DVD of them eventually that you could use. Anyway, if you scroll down the following page to 6-11-06 you’ll find audio copies of those conversations:
Parkview Church Sermon Archives
Comment by: Mike O
2Thanks, Ir, for posting this here. I welcome ANY questions or feedback. Even if the responders question my motives, I can take it. I welcome honest reactions to my question. But I also welcome your input to how best to present this topic to non-Christians … or even if you think it would work.
Thanks,
Mike
Comment by: Ir
3Mike, actually, could you tell us what your motives are - i.e. why are you having this conversation? What do you hope to achieve?
I think you already touched on that but could you spell it out for us?
Some of us are used to churches having the beginning, middle and end of their motive be ‘to convert people’ anytime they invite people who aren’t Christians to anything.
Comment by: Siamang
4If I were participating I would have two goals:
One is to understand the other people better, and two, to be understood better by others.
If I thought that it would promote a deeper understanding, then sure, it’d be something worth my time.
Comment by: Karen
5After 9/11, I went to an informal salon series that was held in the home of a Jewish friend. The point was to gather a bunch of people of different faiths and backgrounds to talk about “larger issues” starting, of course, with terrorism in the name of religion. The salon met for about a year, off and on, with each session based around a different topic or question. It was always fascinating and enjoyable due to the high level of respect and open dialogue that was encouraged.
If this is the kind of thing your church plans to do, Mike, I’d suggest that you not hold it in the church building, but at a “neutral” location. The church setting conveys a powerful message to outsiders and is likely to intimidate open discussion. I’d also suggest that if your pastor leads the group, he makes it clear that everyone’s input will be welcomed and respected, and that he doesn’t claim to have all the answers.
Also, if one of the goals of the sessions is evangelism, or increasing church attendance, that should be stated to participants up front in the interest of ethics and honesty.
Comment by: Mike O
6Thanks for that. My hope is that these conversations would be a point of connection between non-Christians and the church. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t care if people came to faith in Christ … I do. But is that so wrong?
Ir asked what I hope to acheive … that’s a good question. I guess what I want to acheive is for people to see that belief in Christ is reasonable. I hope to acheive that, even if the people who come don’t believe, at least they’ll understand the people who do believe.
And yes, I would be honored if this environment led to new Christ followers. How could I not be? I’m a Christian.
Karen asked if the goal would be evangelism or increasing church attendance. Evangelism? Yes, but low pressure. If you choose not to believe, that’s fine with me … we’re just talking. Increasing church attendance? Yes, but only as a byproduct. I don’t care what church people decide to go to … some will come to mine.
I think it’s important to note, too, that the target audience is people who are considering Christianity but maybe aren’t quite sure about it. I would welcome people who are not interested, but the purpose would be to explain the Christian worldview.
Comment by: Mike O
7After reading and rereading what I just wrote, I just want to add that with all I said in the previous post, whatever views you come in with will provide good discussion. It’s an opportunity for Christians to listen to (and learn from) non-Christians, too. It’s not like the flow of ideas will be all FROM the Christians TO the non-Christians. The flow of ideas will be both ways. But the purpose will be to show that Christianity is reasonable.
Comment by: Ir
8Mike, I don’t think it’s wrong of you to hope people come to share your faith in Christ.
I suppose that some people who come to the conversation who aren’t Christians might be hoping to show you that their worldview is reasonable, just as you are hoping to show them that Christianity is reasonable.
I think Karen’s idea of having the conversation in a neutral location is a good one. If people are interested in what you have to say you can invite them to something at your church subsequently.
Comment by: Mike O
9It is reasonable. What I mean by that is, I understand how someone who believes there is no God can explain everything we see without a God. I don’t happen to think it’s possible, but I understand how others may think it is.
Comment by: Ir
10Mike, I don’t know if the following applies to everyone who posts on our blogs but it’s certainly true of some of us:
we’ve observed that different people look at the same things and come to different conclusions about what they imply - and we aren’t exactly sure why that is. We accept the reality of different people coming to different conclusions without being able to fully explain why they do.
Comment by: Marty
11Mike - I really applaud your requesting input from the non-believers on this board and how you are genuinely appreciating their input. If your minister is able to approach this class in the same way that you are - I believe that the class will be very special and much will be learned from and by all involved. From my standpoint - if the only thing that comes out of it is that believers and non-believers listen to one another (even if it is not balanced and the only thing that the Christians do is opennly listen to and humbly, honestly respond to the non-believers questions) get to know each other and treat each other with respect - the class will have been very successful (I know and honor that you and your pastor are looking for more.)
Helen has referred you to the Parkview services where the Pastor and Hemant dialogued - and I agree - those were outstanding and may be helpful to you in your planning. I think that both the Pastor and Hemant did and excellent job and both were very well received by believers and non-believers on this board. Unfortunately, the Pastor lost much of his credability with many of us when he used a cover story on evolution/creationism in the National Geographic is a way that many of us felt lacked integrity. Some of the non-believers on this board - who are VERY smart as well as knowlegeable on the scripture really took him to task - and in my opinion - rightfully so.
I am really taken with the dialogue between Helen and Rev. Lueking. If the objective is to do what we can to help make the world a better place - I think that who they are and how they are sharing it are examples that move us all in the right direction.
It appears to me that, although both Helen and Rev Lueking have very well thought out beliefs (that come to different conclusions) it is in sharing their doubts that they have come to appreciate and learn from one another.
Comment by: Pastor David
12Mike O -
I would suggest checking out Frank Honeycutt’s Preaching to Skeptics & Seekers. Frank is a Lutheran pastor who did what you are talking about, and wrote a book for preachers on it. His questions were much the same as yours.
Comment by: Ir
13Thanks for the recommendation, Pastor David. That does sound like an interesting book. I found this review of it which includes a list of things the author learned:
Review of Preaching to Skeptics and Seekers
Comment by: David S
14I might go to such a conversation at a church (I have to go to a church to vote… usually with a cross or picture of Jesus right there).
Comment by: Mike O
15Thanks, Pastor David. I just read the review Ir linked to, and it’s exactly what I’m looking for. I’m passing it along to my pastor.
Comment by: Mike O
16I think I’m going to change the name from “Starting Point” to “The Front Porch.” I really want to convey the idea of neighbors getting together just to talk. I’m not sure of the actual physical environment because here in Minnesota, sitting on an actual front porch would prove less than inviting! :)
What about a restaurant? Or even a bar … I’m not a frequenter of bars, but to they have card rooms or something like that that I could use? I would need a seperate space so I could show videos, audios, etc and carry on a 10-12 person religious conversation without disturbing the other customers.
Comment by: Karen
17I like that, because “starting point” conveys that there will also be an “ending point” - which implies that there is some place specific you want attendees to “get” to (which, of course you do, but if I understand right that’s not going to be the emphasis of the course). “Front porch” is an open-ended title that better conveys a give-and-take attitude and what (I hope) you’re looking for, which is more a free exchange of ideas where everyone learns from each other.
I’m in a professional group that meets monthly in a coffeehouse that happens to have a small performance space in the back. (They don’t use the stage area during the mornings, when our group meets.) It would be perfect for your purposes - except it’s in California. ;-) But anyway, look at coffeehouses or restaurants in your area that regularly host business networking events or chamber of commerce things.
I have heard of groups meeting in bars, but frankly most of them will be too loud for your purposes and I’ve seen very few that have meeting rooms (not that I’ve been in many myself). Also, some people (even atheists, believe it or not) don’t drink or are recovering alcoholics and aren’t comfortable in bars.
Comment by: Mike O
18Yeah, Karen, I thought of that, too. I’m just kind of throwing everything out there to see what happens. I’m thinking now that maybe it wouldn’t be the end of the world if we just did it in the summer, but did it at a park or beach or something.
And yes, I know “even atheists don’t drink.” I’m just thinking out loud.
Comment by: Eliza
19What type of video/audio do you have in mind? Seems like best kind would be something that stimulates discussion pretty equally/evenly, rather than something that might come across like a sales pitch. The show “FX - 30 days” had a series of 1-hr shows which Marty has mentioned possibly using as a basis for discussions in “mixed” groups. In these, someone stayed with a family or group he/she would otherwise not have come in contact with - for example, in one an atheist stayed with a Christian family (& attended church & bible study), in another a Christian man from WVa stayed with a Muslim couple, and in a third a pro-choice advocate stayed in a Christian home for unwed mothers. One suggestion, though, might be to hold off on discussion like this until group members know each other and feel comfortable exchanging views on sensitive topics, like belief. Also, you couldn’t play videos very well in a park or on a beach. ;-) Also, a park or beach setting might end up being more social or “play” - maybe less conducive to deep, potentially revealing discussions? (That’s a guess. I don’t know how Minnesotans act at a beach!)
Comment by: Mike O
20Oh, yeah … really long extension cord?????
We pretty much just sit and shiver. JK, our summers are beautiful!
The audio/video would probably be something pro-christianity, but open-ended. Something with the look and feel of the Lost Interviews or other Hemant interviews. I’ll more than likely start with a series by Andy Stanley (pastor of Northpoint Community Church). I’ve listened to the whole thing already and I liked the approach. It’s coming from a Christian perspective (my perspective), but very open-ended and conversational.
The FX thing sounds perfect. Also, Jim has given me suggestions and there’s a good website, http://www.theeffect.org, particularly the audioword and articles links, but I’ve still not actually seen any of it … I just know it’s there.
Thanks, Eliza!