Posted by Ir (Helen) on: 10.10.2006 /
On Sunday at Georgetown United Methodist Church, in whose cemetery Roberts was buried, the Rev. Michael Remel called for “less violence, less hatred, less evil in the world” - and asked God to “let the world learn the lesson of forgiveness that came from our friends, the Amish.”
Mike O e-mailed me some questions he wanted to ask about this:
The Amish are teaching the country a lesson in forgiveness, and I am curious to the thoughts of Christians and Atheists alike regarding their handling of the deaths of 5 innocent girls. Should the Amish be so accepting of “God’s will” for their lives? Should the Amish be so forgiving? Is it possible to forgive like they can without a god-based worldview? As a life-long Christian, I wonder … could an atheist forgive like that, and if so, why would they? And what about the shooter’s wife … she was apparently a Christian woman … what would this do to your faith if your spouse did something like this?
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Comment by: Mike O
1 10/10/06 6:57 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Ir, for posting this. Please understand my intent is not to imply anything about atheists. I’m genuinely wondering how people people who don’t believe in God react to things like this, and why. All my life is in the Christian worldview, and I’m looking for perspective. How do others respond to things like this?
Thanks. Mike
Comment by: Siamang
2 10/10/06 11:29 AM | Comment Link |I would say that like the Reverend quoted, I also call for less violence, less hatred and less evil in the world.
I’m not sure what the lesson of Amish forgiveness is in this circumstance, or Christian forgiveness in general. Perhaps it’s something that can be explained to me, because I really don’t understand it. According to what I understand about Christian doctrine, the murderer is dead and therefore in hell right now. He is scheduled for eternal torture. So where’s the ‘forgiveness’ here? I just don’t get it.
But anyway, I “deal” with this as best I can as a father myself. My heart goes out to those in sorrow and struggle. I search for ways to make our children safer. I’m wondering what the heck was wrong with the wife that she didn’t notice anything wrong with her husband beforehand.
I really think we need a deeper mental health dialogue in this country, and it’s a dialogue that we really have not had and I don’t expect we will have anytime soon. I fear that one of the reasons we don’t is because of various social stigmas, and I don’t like to admit it, but a religious belief that mentally ill people are evil in some supernatural or spiritual way. I think mentally ill people sometimes don’t seek treatment because of these stigmas. Sometimes they seek treatment through prayer or in church when they need help from medical professionals. I think it’s a real impediment to preventing mentally ill people from committing horrible acts of violence.
Comment by: Mike O
3 10/10/06 1:19 PM | Comment Link |There are some groups of Christianity that would propose prayer in lieu of medical attention, be it mental or physical. And that, I think, is a SERIOUS twistation of scripture. But you’re probably right … Christians tend to seek supernatural support. And that’s OK IMO, but not at the expense of natural, physical world remedies. Like doctors, therapists, etc.
To your forgiveness question, I was wondering more about the Amish people, not their god. If someone killed your daughter, would you be able to attend his funeral to show support for the widow? Should you? And if so, why? I mean, she didn’t do anything to them, and is in as much grief as they are.
For the shooter, yes, Christianity teaches that, once he died, his eternal fate was sealed. I’m not saying that this one act of evil damned his soul to hell. If it did, everyone would go to hell because we’ve all committed evil deeds (to a lesser degree, I’ll grant you. But that’s the Christian view). But in Christianity, where a person spends eternity depends on their relationship with Christ, not the acts they commit. One example from scripture was Jesus forgiving the sins of a convicted and dying thief on the cross next to him. He had done nothing to deserve heaven, and everything to deserve hell. Yet Jesus granted him a pass because he “got his heart right” before he died.(Hey, you said you wanted someone to explain it :)
But again, my question was more to the forgiveness that the Amish people seem to be able to show. I admire it.
Comment by: Karen
4 10/10/06 2:18 PM | Comment Link |The shooter and his family were fundamentalist Christians, as I understand it. It’s unfortunate that his church community and/or pastor did not spot a mental health problem that started a decade ago and definitely should have been treated by a professional. :-( I agree with Siamang that too often, mental problems are “spiritualized” in Christian groups and prayer is administered instead of counseling or medication. I saw it happen with a friend who had post-partum depression and almost killed herself.
According to traditional Christian doctrine, the murderer is in heaven rejoicing with Jesus and the angels right now (assuming he accepted Christ at some point in his life, which is a pretty fair bet). Also in heaven with him, presumably, are his victims (AFAIK, Amish accept Jesus as savior). Doesn’t make a whit of sense to me anymore, but that’s the doctrine.
As far as what I would do or feel as the parent of a murdered child - I have absolutely no idea, and I hope with all I’m worth that I’ll never find out. We could all speculate, but I’ve learned it’s not very fruitful to imagine what I might think or feel in an unimaginable situation.
The Amish are revered in general society because in the hectic, often coarse reality of modern life, they represent something we regular folks idealize way out of proportion to the reality, which is hardly idyllic (they’re so inbred that their children suffer terribly from genetic disease, for one thing). I do applaud their nonviolence (to a point) but I don’t particularly care for the stoicism and extreme fatalism they exhibit.
True forgiveness is a choice one makes or doesn’t make, usually after an internal struggle that may take a long time to work through, and depending on one’s own strength of character and interest in forgiving (some people aren’t interested in forgiving, which is their legitimate choice). I don’t think the Amish really have a “choice” about forgiving, even in a circumstance like this. It’s mandated that they WILL ‘forgive their enemies’ whether it’s what they honestly feel or not. It’s automatic, and it seems to me the community and religious pressure they live under (they absolutely MUST conform their thinking to the group, or they are “shunned” by everyone they know and love) turns them into semi-automatons.
Not the kind of life I’d envy.
Comment by: NCxian
5 10/10/06 2:25 PM | Comment Link |Wow, I have to say this is the only place in the whole ordeal where I’ve seen folks beating up on the Amish!
The Amish have always struck me as people of integrity, people who live their beliefs. Maybe I don’t know as much about them as you guys do?
Comment by: Siamang
6 10/10/06 2:26 PM | Comment Link |I still don’t see the forgiveness.
They “forgive” the wife? She didn’t do anything. They presumably believe the murderer is in hell. So what do they say at the funeral, “I forgive you for marrying the man we all believe is roasting in hell?”
Is it really forgiveness to say “well, WE forgive him, but we believe our God is, in all His merciful Wrath, punishing him mightily”?
Is it really forgiveness to show support to a different individual than the one who committed the crime?
I just feel like the logic is extremely twisted to simultaneously believe in a vengeful God torturing your tormentor, and yet believe that that same God is a loving God, and also believe that YOU have personally forgiven that person. A+B+C doesn’t add up.
If the man was ALIVE they could forgive him. I’d be interested in seeing that kind of forgiveness. I know that has happened in some famous cases.
That kind of “forgiveness” is noted in Michael Berg. Nick Berg’s father has very publicly said he mourns the death of his son’s murderer. Michael Berg said “Any man’s death saddens me.
Revenge Stops and Responsibility Starts with me.”
He initially lashed out against Al Zarquawi, as well as our President and his administration for the war and the continuing cycle of violence. He has since forgiven all of them, including Al Zarquawi.
I don’t think Michael Berg is a religious man. In fact, I think he’s decidedly secular, if not an atheist. I admire his ability to forgive, quite a bit. I do not think he believes his son’s murderer is being tortured in hell.
I think it’s very easy to “forgive” a dead man. Esp. if you believe that he’s still getting all the worst pain that’s coming to him, for now and eternity.
Very strange, this definition of “forgiveness.”
Comment by: Siamang
7 10/10/06 2:28 PM | Comment Link |NC,
I’m not beating up on the Amish. My heart goes out to them. I mourn their loss terribly.
I just don’t understand what this forgiveness actually means. I’m trying to figure it out. If it ’s really an important lesson that the Amish have to teach us all, I think that some analysis will possibly help me learn this lesson.
Cause right now, I’m missing it.
Comment by: NCxian
8 10/10/06 4:00 PM | Comment Link |Forgiveness is a really complex subject, and reasonable people (and branches of psychology) disagree on the whys and hows. But I think most people agree that forgiveness is about healing. In the case of a dead party, the healing is about the living.
We may quibble over whether the Amish are correct in being quick to forgive. That is their way, not necessarily my way or your way. But no matter what, with the forgiveness comes the possibility of healing in the families of the children, in the family of the shooter, the possibility of healing of relationships between the two.
I have not followed this story very closely because I am embarassed that the Amish are having to live this out so publicly. But I would guess, based on what I have read, that they believe that the fate of the shooter is totally out of their hands. So if you were to say to them, Siamang, that the existence of hell and forgiving someone who harms you are inconsistent would baffle them. This forgiveness is completely about the living.
What would the Amish do if the shooter had lived? I would guess, based on all I have seen, that they would do their best to forgive him. No neighborhood posse would arrive at the steps of the court house to string him up. They would not press for the death penalty. They would feed his children and wife (just as they are doing now).
We have done a lot of talking in the past about the behavior of Christians. It has often been said, “one kind of ‘evidence’ that Christians were on to something true would be if their actions were somehow different from the rest of folks and better, but . . . “. We can argue about the better, perhaps (I would argue “better” being a pacificist myself), but here are people living out their Christian beliefs in a radically different way from the mainstream culture? And they have been responding in the same way to people who hurt them for generations. They do it because they believe it is what Jesus taught. So, what do we think?
Comment by: Siamang
9 10/10/06 4:49 PM | Comment Link |But if the man had lived, I still doubt that anyone would be arguing that he should be set free, because his wrongs had been “forgiven”.
If “forgiveness” amounts to not calling for the death penalty, I guess I forgive all murderers because I’m against the death penalty as a matter of policy.
I’m also against lynch mobs and posses showing up at the courthouse to string people up. If being anti lynching vs pro lynching is the sum total of the definition of forgiveness, I’m glad to say that we as a nation have progressed quite a bit past that.
Rather, no, I EXPECT all modern American citizens to submit to the laws of the United States of America. I’m not bowled over by people’s peaceful spiritual nature merely because they allow the government to punish wrongdoers rather than grab a bunch of shotguns vigalante style.
If the Amish community is feeding and caring for the wife, that’s a wonderful message of charity and selflessness. I think we should all emulate it. It must take great courage.
But I still don’t see forgiveness. How can you forgive someone who you believe your God is now putting into hell? That is, unless you think that God is less forgiving than you are. In which case… I’m sorry it doesn’t add up.
Comment by: Karen
10 10/10/06 5:46 PM | Comment Link |I know, I’m heartless. ;-)
I honestly don’t mean to beat up on them, NC, and I wouldn’t have commented at this sad time (even though I’ve been thinking about the Amish, given recent events) except that someone else brought up the topic. Of course, I feel terribly about the incident that occurred in their community AND (let’s not forget) similar recent incidents in other, perhaps less picturesque, communities around the country.
Here’s what I know: They are all descended from the same seven German families that emigrated to the area a couple hundred years ago. They intermarry because they’re forbidden from marrying outsiders (the “English”) and their children are subject to miserable genetic diseases as a result. That doesn’t recommend their practices to me, for starters, nor does the fact that they put children to work at very young ages doing jobs that are blatantly unsafe. One of the reasons they’re so stoic is because they are very familiar with death. Their communities have very high death rates, and many who die are children involved in accidents that are absolutely preventable with modern safety techniques that they refuse to use. They’re a religious group so the government keeps a hands-off policy about the safety of the children, apparently. :-(
Their children get educated only up to the eighth grade and then must make a decision to conform to the extremely rigid (and frankly ridiculous) rules of the society, or leave forever in shame and heartbreak. Those who leave are “shunned” - so they cannot ever have loving contact with their former friends and families again. I guess I don’t see the “forgiveness” there, somehow.
As a person with a restless intellect and strong curiosity who loves learning and travel and art and culture, I can imagine that living in such a restrictive community would be sheer hell. On the other hand, if you wanted to leave, what a terrible choice you’d face! To lose all ties to the only people and life you’ve ever known? No wonder 90% stay in the community despite the fact that women are stuck in “traditional roles” and there’s very little personal freedom.
Like I said, there are things about them I admire. But I also think they are idealized beyond what’s sensible.
Comment by: NCxian
11 10/10/06 5:51 PM | Comment Link |Siamang,
I think we are talking at cross purposes, perhaps around the definition of “forgiveness”. When you are saying forgiveness, are you meaning, “free from suffering the consequences of your actions”? Like, maybe, the “forgiveness” of a debt or something? I don’t think that is what I, or the Amish, have in mind with forgiveness. I think they mean, “we are trying to let go of our ill will toward and be reconciled with the person, so that we can once again wish the best for the person” (which, if he were alive, might be jail or commitment to a mental institution, but certainly not walking the streets). Since, in this particular case, the person is dead, then the reconciliation is internal to the individuals doing the forgiving, internal to that community, and between the dead person’s family and the Amish community. (And between the Amish person/community and God, they would say). I believe they are saying, “we are (with God’s help) preparing to be reconciled”.
Also, I hope you are not construing something that I am saying to mean that people other than Christians can’t make admirable moral choices. I hope you know that I don’t believe that. But the fact is the Amish behave this way–forgive those who injure them–because of their belief that it is the teaching of Jesus. I don’t think that there could be a clearer case, since they choose to live separate from the larger culture in order to do so. So far as judging the validity of Christianity by the behavior of its adherents (which has often been advocated in regard to negative characteristics–”what about the Crusades, what about the salem witch trials, blah, blah, blah”) the question revolves around the Amish and their behavior. What somebody who does not profess Christianity would do in the same circumstances is, as far as I am concerned, irrelevant to the question.
Again, on the issue of hell, I think they would be baffled by your argument. I believe they would not see the connection between the question of heaven/hell and the admonition to forgive those who trespass against you. I suspect they would see having an opinion about who is in heaven and who is not to be presumptuous. I base that on my general understanding of the anabaptist tradition. I don’t know that much about specific Amish views on that.
I can understand that you are not “bowled over by people’s peaceful spiritual nature” in this instance, since they have nothing to lose by behaving this way. However, their history is that they have been sometimes suffered because of their opposition to violence and such. Perhaps it is my appreciation of their being willing to adhere to this belief systm even when it has hurt them that causes me to view this situation and their response more sympatheticly.
Comment by: NCxian
12 10/10/06 5:53 PM | Comment Link |By the way, Siamang, you are aggravated because the Amish might think the shooter is in hell. Karen, you are aggravated because they might think he is in heaven! No wonder they prefer to live separate from us! ;)
Comment by: David H
13 10/10/06 6:01 PM | Comment Link |I don’t want to be argumentative, but I don’t believe the Amish belief system says Charles Roberts is in hell being tortured because of what he did. That may be the view of some other Christian sects, but I believe NCxian is correct when he says: “…they believe that the fate of the shooter is totally out of their hands.” For the Amish salvation is a personal issue and isn’t something they can necessarily know. Therefore they don’t take a position on how God is dealing with Roberts.
Having grown up near and worked in Amish communities, I have several times been surprised by their ability to forgive. I have heard more than one story of entire Amish families being killed by drunken drivers (I drove my bread truck past one such accident only minutes after it occurred) and the response of the survivors and Amish community was pretty much the same each time. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they left those “killers” off the hook. The Amish also have a strong belief in personal responsibility, which means that if you did something wrong (especially in harming another) then you have to face the legal consequences of that act. But they have still forgiven and even supported those who have wronged them. But I am fairly certain they don’t support the death penalty.
I don’t want to make it sound like the Amish community is a utopia. They have issues and problems just like the rest of us human beings. I tend to find them a bit legalistic. But their attitude on forgiveness seems real and good (even if based in fatalism).
Also, I’m not sure they believe forgiveness is just for the living. There is a significant component that is for the survivors (and it is needed even by Charles Robert’s wife and children who — and I say this from personal experience — would probably face condemnation and some form of retribution from normal American society at least along the order of the comment above about how she could have missed what was going wrong). However, it is possible their belief about forgiveness extends beyond what they would call this life.
C.S. Lewis wrote a book called “The Great Divorce.” In it people take a bus trip to the outskirts of heaven. There each traveler is met by someone who will walk with them further into heaven if the traveler chooses to take the walk. One good Christian woman is met by a man who made the trip a while before her. He committed murder and died in prison. The woman refuses to walk with him, saying that if heaven accepts people like him then she doesn’t want to go there.
The story is fiction, but the feeling is real. Too many Christians set standards about who deserves heaven and who deserves forgiveness. Perhaps non-Christians do as well. The Amish view is that everyone deserves forgiveness and it isn’t their call on who gets into heaven. I think that is commendable and difficult. I’m not sure I could sit down with the wife of a man who had just killed my daughter and I’m not positive, as someone who believes in heaven, I would want to spend eternity with the guy who pulled the trigger. But having lived through something similar, I can see the value of the Amish belief.
Comment by: NCxian
14 10/10/06 6:09 PM | Comment Link |That is undoubtedly true.
And look how many times we (me especially) have called them “the Amish”, as if they were one unit. I am sure there is a lot more complex emotion going on in individual minds than we can grasp. I hope I am not ever personally presented with these issues!
Comment by: Ir
15 10/11/06 3:50 AM | Comment Link |In the ‘forgiveness means letting go of an anger that could control me and mess up my life’ sense then I think forgiving people is always helpful. As the definition implies, it helps us move on. It doesn’t mean we have to deny that the person did something very wrong. It’s about disentangling ourselves emotionally from letting thoughts about them/what they did rule over us.
I think it’s wonderful if the parents who lost daughters can come together with the family who lost a father and husband in shared grief that they’ve all suffered a huge loss.
I think that takes some forgiveness because it involves deciding not to, say, be angry at Roberts’ wife for not stopping her husband. She didn’t know but I could see people being angry at her for not realizing he was so troubled he might go do something desperate with terrible consequences. At times like this I think people crave answers and look for scapegoats. Imo it’s very human to do so. And I’m glad if Amish fathers and mothers who lost daughters can see beyond their own pain to realize that the family of Robert’s is hurting too - and they would never have done anything to encourage their husband to do what he did.
Siamang, about mental health issues - I’m not willing to pin all the the blame for the stigma on Christians and their beliefs. People have a natural distrust of what is weird or different in others, whether they have religious beliefs or not. Hence I think the stigma is contributed to and perpetuated by human sentiment that is widespread and not just experienced by Christians.
Having said that, I find it very frustrating when Christians argue that a) mental illness doesn’t really exist or b) that it is in fact ‘demon possession’ and should be treated by an exorcist rather than medical professionals.
Comment by: Mike O
16 10/11/06 5:43 AM | Comment Link |My brother in law is schizophrenic and his mother is convinced, and has him convinced, that he doesn’t need medication. It’s cruel what he lives with. It has nothing to do with Christianity or anything else, it’s just mental illness. But Ir’s right … there’s a general stigma. I don’t get it.
Back to the forgiveness thing again, I don’t think this is somethinhg you can “do the math” on. When hate and remorse and pain are involved, it makes no difference that Roberts’ wife had nothing to do with it. The knee-jerk reaction would NOT be to come to her aid. For them to see beyond their own pain (fatalistic, though they may be), and place her ahead of themselves, is commendable.
I heard a good quote two weeks ago … “Hate does more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to the one on which it is poured.” Whether they are technically “forgiving” her or just “not blaming” her, their actions are speaking loudly right now. For all their issues, I think they’ve got this one nailed.
As long as someone doesn’t go postal from holding it all in. But there’s a difference between letting it go (forgiveness) and holding it in.
I went out to crimelibrary.com and did a search on amish murderers, and there is only one. And he was definitely crazy. It wasn’t the Amishness that got him. So given the hell people give them, they seem to have mastered the “letting it go” historically.
Comment by: Ir
17 10/11/06 6:29 AM | Comment Link |Mike, I’m sorry to hear about your brother-in-law. (What I mean is - I’m sorry because when someone has a serious mental illness it’s difficult for them and everyone close to them - and it only makes it harder if people are inflexible about treatment options)
Comment by: David H
18 10/11/06 12:20 PM | Comment Link |I had a brother who was schizophrenic or bi-polar. My parents went down the exorcism route with devastating results. However, as a newspaper reporter I wrote a series of stories about mental health issues in Pennsylvania and specifically people who killed themselves or others despite attempts to have them helped. The stigma attatched to mental health problems is not just Christian or just particular families. It is societal.
In the US we have precious few mechanisms for dealing with mental illness and we are one of the most well-prepared countries in the world.
Comment by: Karen
19 10/11/06 2:35 PM | Comment Link |:-) I think the whole idea of someone being tortured or rewarded for eternity based on something they did or something they believed/rejected in this incredibly short, confusing life is just aggravating to me in general, NC.
There are different sects. The things I mentioned reference the Old Order Amish particularly. The New Order Amish (who emerged about a century ago after the great Zipper Schism ;-) ) accept some modern conveniences. I’m not sure if they shun members who leave for the outside world. The Mennonites have some things in common with the Amish, but lead more modern, less restrictive lives.
I’ll tell you one thing positive: Their tradition includes some fantastic cooks! I have a great Mennonite recipe book. :-)
Comment by: Karen
20 10/11/06 2:41 PM | Comment Link |I agree, it is. What worries me, though, is that grieving people usually need to work through their own pain before they can really, honestly forgive someone.
And, much as forgiveness is the desired end result, I think it’s a personal process - not a mandate that must happen immediately after the tragedy. I’m sure we’ve all heard about Kubler-Ross and the “stages of grief” - of course it’s normal to be horribly angry when something like this happens, just like it’s normal to be in denial, or depression, or bargaining.
Going from A - tragedy - to Z - forgiveness - in one day, without any chance to experience those stages just doesn’t seem psychologically healthy to me. And it’s not like an individual has a choice: If he or she feels devastatingly angry, I don’t know that they’re allowed to express that in this kind of restrictive environment.
Maybe being raised in it and seeing it modeled all your life helps make that kind of reaction feel “normal.” I hope so, for the families’ sakes.
Comment by: David H
21 10/11/06 5:19 PM | Comment Link |An interview I read with an Amish newspaper editor does make it seem as if embracing or closing ranks with everyone involved is a normal response. I’m not sure whether there have been many studies of how the old order Amish accomplish this and how that helps/hurts all of the people involved.
I’m also not sure what kinds of outlets they provide for overwhelming anger and grief. They seem fairly silent on those subjects in the few things I have read. In the interview referenced above, the newspaper editor deleted the phone message from his brother who lives in the Nickle Mines area without even listening to the whole thing. There is a turning away from even hearing about such things that appears to be part of the old order Amish approach to life. Some people would call that sticking your head in the sane and I’m sure that has been said plenty of times about the old order Amish.
Still, they seem to be modeling something good as a community. And they aren’t the only ones who have tried such an approach. South Africa, as a nation, did something similar to try and short-circuit the common cycle of retribution when the apartheid system ended. The following is an account from Philip Yancey’s book “Rumors of Another World.” It recounts something perhaps even more extreme than what the old order Amish attempt with their immediate forgiveness.
Comment by: Julie Marie
22 10/11/06 8:12 PM | Comment Link |somewhere along the way I heard this phrase: “somebody’s got to be the anvil.”