Posted by Siamang on: 12.11.2006 /
By Siamang
Christmas is coming up. Many readers here know that I have a three-year-old daughter, and neither my wife or I observe any religious beliefs.
But religious subject matter is coming up, and we’re in the process of explaining it all to a three-year-old.
A bit about our lives. Though we aren’t religious, we celebrate Christmas. We don’t attempt to steer it into a non-religious holiday either. The Nativity scene is on the bookshelf. We have nativity ornaments. Religious and non-religious carols play on the shuffle play.
We don’t have a big “Happy Birthday, Jesus” banner, but we don’t expunge him either. It’s our home, and a holiday, for cryin’ out loud, not a communist state.
My daughter attends preschool at the local Methodist church, and she’ll be singing in the Church for a show for the parents, as well as joining the churchmembers for a caroling trip.
This weekend we put up the tree, and I overheard my wife discussing the ornaments with my daughter, and the various religions. She was explaining that some people are Christian religion, and celebrate Christmas, and some people are Jewish religion, and celebrate Hannukah, and that some people are no religion, and celebrate Christmas for family and Santa Claus and presents. I think there was some discussion of the baby Jesus and that being part of the Christian religion.
My wife told me her fear was that while she’s trying to explain this stuff to our daughter, she was trying to do it in a way that didn’t overwhelm her with the seriousness that other people hold these beliefs. She was explaining it the way we explain a lot of things in her life… these are stories people tell about famous people who lived long ago. Her fear is that our daughter will speak of these things flippantly and without the proper reverence, but at the same time, her parents don’t have those religious beliefs, we don’t take part in them, and so what reverence we have is purely a token of respect for people we love who hold those beliefs.
What a tightrope we walk… trying not to weigh our child down with any particular baggage we have. Trying to present our lives as being honest to us and our beliefs, and yet at the same time not wanting to….
Not wanting to impart the behavioral self-certainty that people with religious beliefs seem to have. I don’t want her to, when she’s five, announce how “our family are atheists, and we’re right and you’re wrong.” Though I suspect that she’ll get that tone from other people.
Did I mention my Christian mother and stepfather are coming out for a visit this Christmas? The ones who don’t know we’re atheists?
My mom thought perhaps she should bring my daughter a book about Jesus for Christmas. *sigh*.
Mom…. I’ve been meaning to tell you something……
Comment by: Karen
1So … are you going to tell her? Or is it possible for her to visit and not pick up on the fact that you’re not believers anymore?
Comment by: Siamang
2Well, It’s hard to tell with us. Just as a family, we’re not big on outward signs of belief.
It might come up… and I think something about my daughter will be the impetus.
I’ll let folks know how it goes. I don’t plan on bringing it up. But at the same time I’m trying to be casual about it. No sense in building it up bigger than it should be.
The good thing is that my mom is a very level-headed, pragmatic person. I’ve got nothing to worry about. There won’t be any fall-out. There won’t be any big screaming drama or anything like that. So I’ve got that as something to be thankful for. I know not everyone has that kind of relationship with their parents.
But on the other hand, it may be why it never came up before… no need to bring it up.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
3Siamang, thanks for sharing this.
How to raise our children is a very real concern for parents whatever their beliefs/lack thereof.
I can understand you not wanting to raise a child who will be dogmatically disrespectful of what others believe.
I think one thing that might help is emphasizing the positive values you believe with her, rather than just “this is what we aren’t” or “this is what we don’t believe. Stating positive values is less antagonistic than saying “we don’t believe that”.
Also, for now you could role-model not value-judging others by saying “Some people believe this” and not commenting on whether you think that belief is ridiculous or silly.
When my children were younger the most important thing for me was to help them believe what they needed to believe to avoid hell. That has to be the focus for Christian parents who believe hell is a possibility unless their children have a ‘correct’ belief. Since I became less sure of my own beliefs, the key thing for me now is that my children ask good questions and think for themselves. I want them to understand and apply the scientific method for themselves. But I would also like them to be decent people with good values. I hope they won’t grow up selfish or materialistic, for example. In theory Christian teaching ought to help them avoid such things. But in practice I’m happy to have them out of environments where they would be taught that having good values is only possible for Christians.
I can understand you not wanting to push the point that you’re atheists with your parents. It seems quite possible that it may come up since they’re with you for Christmas. If your Mom brings a Jesus book for your daughter or tells her about Jesus, you can easily address this later with your daughter and say “Yes, that’s what Grandma believes. Some people believe it but we don’t.” At three your daughter might not yet be at the stage yet where she’s actively separating fact and fantasy - she may hold a lot of erroneous beliefs about the world. However she will reach that stage soon enough and you’ll have lots of opportunity to guide her in how to tell which is which. And to guide her in being respectful among other people who don’t share her beliefs. If she goes to public school and it’s anything like our public school system her teachers will also emphasize “respect for people who are different from us”. That’s one thing I LIKE about the public school system.
By the way, IIDB often has discussions in their secular life forum initiated by parents asking questions about their children and Christian friends or relatives.
Anyway, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas with your wife and daughter and parents. If the conversation goes in the direction where you feel you need to tell them you’re atheists I hope that goes as well as it possibly can. If it does I hope your parents will adjust to that new knowledge quickly and not let it cause any significant rift in the relationship you and your wife have with them.
If they are the sort of Christians who worry about people going to hell, it’s probably best to delay them finding out their grandchild is being raised by atheist parents, in case it sets them on a path of thinking it’s their job to stop their grandchild going to hell. What they don’t know about, they won’t try to fix. But maybe this won’t be an issue anyway.
Comment by: NCxian
4Siamang:
I don’t know that I have any good advice. What we say to our children about our faith is that this is what “our family believes” and that other religions are what other families believe. As my son has gotten a little older, we have changed the word “family” to “religious tradition” (which is what we use the term “family” to stand in for, with our small children). We intend to convey that people have a wide range of beliefs and that they have good reasons for their beliefs that we can all honor. We hope this will set them up, in the long run, to see that they will ultimately make their own choices and there are other honorable choices out there for them to consider.
We have a similar situation with my parents. My mother’s father was an alcoholic, and her response has been to be totally anti-alcohol. Despite the fact that she is a highly educated person, she has never been able to view consuming alcohol any differently than she learned to view it in her difficult childhood.
You can guess where this is going, I suppose. My husband and I drink and we don’t hide this fact from our children. My husband and I have always considered a “don’t ask, don’t tell” position to be the kindness way to proceed with my parents. But how do you explain, “don’t ask, don’t tell” to a child. No matter what you say, it comes out sounding sneaky and dishonest! What to do?
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
5Could you say, when your Mom is not around, “It upsets Grandma if we talk about this?” That’ probably pretty close to the truth.
Often we worry about things that don’t come up anyway - and saying nothing works better than trying to be pre-emptive, which might make a bigger deal of something that needed to happen…
It seems sad that the relational games adults play raise conundrums about how to raise our children so they won’t play the same sorts of games. In 30 years will they be telling their children: “Don’t tell Grandma we do this…”? Yikes ;-)
Comment by: NCxian
6Exactly. Or even worse, in 30 days they will be saying, “I didn’t want to tell you that I broke the Ming vase because I knew it would upset you”!
You try to teach your kids to be true to who they are, then you find out there are kinks in that rule for yourself.
Comment by: Kenneth
7I have just recently came across your blog, and am thoroughly impressed. Most atheists I know are rude about anything religious, and just do it to go against society, or their parents. Reading your blog has enlightened me, and I can understand the trouble you might have explaining your beliefs to a 3 yr old in a world where society shoves beliefs down your throats all day. I wish you luck.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
8Thanks Ken. I don’t think any of the atheists who post here are atheists ‘just to go against society’. Feel free to stick around and join in the conversation if you like.
Comment by: Siamang
9Thanks, Kenneth!
Keep visiting and contributing here. Glad you found us!
Comment by: Mike O
10I guess the only thing I would add would be to give your mom and step-dad room to have trouble with this if it does come up. I’ve been thinking about how I would react if my son told me he was an atheist, and it would be VERY difficult for me to accept.
I don’t know how you were raised, or if you changed your mind about your faith or never were Christian (I think you said at one time you were), or what your mom and step-dad’s experience has been with God. But speaking from my family perspective, this is not simply a cognitive decision as to what you believe and what you don’t, but rather it is a decision with eternal ramifications. Your deciding not to follow their God may be very difficult for them to swallow. And I guess all I’m saying is, whatever happens, give them the room to not handle it well … I can’t speak for them, but this would be a huge blow to me. I’m not sure how I would react initially … especially at Christmas which is a significant time for my family … but I love my son no matter what and our relationship would not be broken. Sure, I would worry about him and I would pray that he would come back to God. And I think it would be entirely reasonable for your mom and step-dad to do the same. And it would be entirely reasonable for them to react strongly to your non-acceptance of something they hold dear.
I guess what I’m saying is, if you have a good relationship with them now, when they don’t know, don’t let them finding out the truth about your views come between you. Even if that means you have to give them some room to react rightly or wrongly. Give them the room to take the hit, because it it were me, right or wrong, that’s what it would feel like. Maybe it shouldn’t feel that way (I think it should), but it would to me and it might to them. I’m just being transparent … it would be hard for me to hear. And if it’s hard for them to hear, give them the room to struggle with it.
Comment by: Siamang
11That’s some good advice, Mike.
I don’t suspect they’ll react very badly at all. But I appreciate the advice.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
12Mike, thanks for sharing your perspective on what it would be like to have your (adult) child announce he’s an atheist. My sense is that the Christian parents I used to go to church with would feel similarly to you.
How Siamang’s parents would react if it comes up probably would depend on such things as a) how important their faith is to them b) what they think is at stake c) whether they tend to take things personally and blame themselves or not. I remember reading on IIDB that the Christian parents of people who post there vary a lot in how they handle the fact that their child is an atheist.
Siamang I hope you’re right that if it comes up your parents will deal with it ok.
If they don’t, then I think Mike’s advice about how to handle the situation is very wise.
Comment by: Mike O
13Thanks for that …
Comment by: Stephan
14Siamang, I am very interested to find out how this went. Please update us.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
15Yes, I’d love to hear how it went too, Siamang!
Comment by: Siamang
16Yeah, sorry for not getting back to this and having y’all on pins and needles!
The visit went really well. We didn’t have any big discussions about religion.
There were a number of interesting things that happened.
First off, they bought a condo, so they will be moving out here to california around the end of january. This is wonderful news, and it means that my daughter will have another set of close grandparents.
They’re Methodists, and it happens that my daughter attends a Methodist pre-school. My wife is friends with the pastor’s wife, and so we know them and their children.
Anyway, it’s a nice church, and since it’s the same denomination I actually had some hope that by luring them to this church, we could convince my mother to live closer to us. That didn’t work. Darn! They chose a suburb about an hour’s drive away, which is too bad but at least a heckuva lot closer than Florida!
The day after my mother and stepfather arrived, we brought them to the church because the pre-school had the kids singing a little christmas carol show in the sanctuary. It was a little bit of jingle bells and the Happy Birthday song to you-know-who. Then Pastor Greg talked a bit to the children about the first christmas, just a few sentences and they had a manger on-stage with a doll in it. It was pretty light-touch.
After the show, my mom said something along the lines of “That was great.. and it had just a little bit of Baby Jesus in it, it’s not too early to get a little bit of that in.”
“You know we’re atheists, right mom?”…. I didn’t say that. I just thought it!
Nope, instead I did my thing, which is smile and chuckle, which is code for “well, whatever you think, I’m not going to outright contradict you, but it’s not my cup of tea.”
She reminded me that my wife awhile ago said that my mom and stepdad could take our daughter to church sometimes because she wasn’t going to get that from us. In my mom’s mind I think that kind of morphed into going every sunday or almost. Meanwhile in my wife’s mind I think it’s morphed into hardly ever or never.
So that’s going to unfold in its own time.
Then, a few days later on Christmas eve my wife mentioned that maybe they’d like to go to church.
You’ve got to understand that lately my wife has gotten to be a bit more strident about her atheism. So this was funny because I was much more mellow about it than she was. But she recongized that my mom and stepdad like to go to church, so she thought that would be something that they’d enjoy.
I think they really did enjoy it. For a church, I enjoyed it too. They had an AMAZING choir and they did a portion of Handel’s messiah, “For unto us a child is born.” That was fantastic. There were some singing of hymns, but they were the ones we know as christmas carols. There was some prayer and call and response things, and the passing of the collection plates. There was a homily and then the kids came out dressed as the nativity scene, which was incredibly cute. There was also a modern-dance element and some drumming.
It was a great presentation and, well, if you HAD to go to church, it was a good one! ;-) I did miss the Pastor’s sermon while stepping out to care for my daughter. But other than that we all sat through the service including her.
At this point, I’m not sure my mother knows what I believe. My wife thinks she must know that we’re atheists. I’m not sure. I’m not sure my mom really knows what atheism really is, or if it’s even a considered opinion.
Anyway, i’m sure I’ll keep blogging about this. Thanks for your interest, folks.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
17Siamang, thanks for the detailed update!
I’m glad that your mother and stepfather are moving much closer and that you see that as a good thing. I expect you’re right that since you have a good relationship it will survive the day your Mom finds out the full extent of your atheism, if she hasn’t yet.
Based on experience it might not have happened yet for various reasons. Although your wife might feel she’s dropped enough hints, your Mom most likely doesn’t want to pick up on the ‘worst case scenario’ of what they mean. She might be holding onto some hope that you are more open to Christianity being true than you are since you are willing to let them take your daughter to church occasionally and since you send her to a Methodist preschool. Or maybe she’s hoping you are ‘private Christians’ who don’t like church and don’t talk about your faith but do have an inside belief. Well, who knows. I just think that hints don’t always get the message across when people don’t want to believe what the hints could indicate.
And you’re probably right that at some point you’ll need to clarify how often your daughter goes to church with them. By the way, if the church they go to has a kids class/activity your daughter likes then she will probably side with them in wanting to go often. So bear in mind that’s going to come into play once they’ve taken her and she’s seen what it’s like.
I had one experience like yours at Christmas i.e. my husband’s parents were with us and his Mom, who used to accompany me to church when she visited us, said “Can we go to a Christmas service?” So she and I did. I’m thinking I might well do a review of it for Church Rater. (If you want to do the same, there’s a review form on that blog you can fill in and submit)
Comment by: Siamang
18I thought seriously about doing a review for church rater… but the problem was i had to leave for the pastor’s homily to take my daughter outside for a breath of fresh air, run around so she didn’t melt down during the service.
It didn’t seem fair to write it up absent that.
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
19Siamang, you still could write about the rest of the service if you wanted to. I think it’s good for people who aren’t atheists to see that atheists aren’t afraid to admit “I enjoyed some aspects of that service”.
Imo Hemant has already done a great job of showing that atheists can be very fair in their assessments of services. But given all the bad press atheists get, I think it can’t hurt to keep providing non-atheists with accurate first-hand information about atheists.
Anyway, if you’ve already decided not to write a review because you think it’s unfair, or whatever, that’s fine. Thanks for considering it!