“What I Want for Christmas”

Posted by Siamang on: 01.23.2007 /

A child of an atheist blogger writes a beautiful “pop-quiz” essay at school on the theme of “What I want for Christmas.”

Here’s a small part:

As I glance around this classroom, I see that many of my friends are feverishly pumping out manifestos dictating what gadgets and goodies they wish to find under their Christmas tree on the morning of December 25th. My mind, however, is reeling over the presumption that my public school teacher has addressed our classroom and assigned an essay in which she presumes that the entire lot of us are Christian or celebrate Christmas.

I take another look around my classroom and notice that Mahmeed is absent-mindedly cleaning underneathe his fingernails with the cap from his pen. Emily is feverishly trying to catch my eye and, having done so, mouthing the words, “I don’t celebrate Christmas…I’m Jewish.” in a quizzical manner. Jayden is doing what he normally does during such pop essays: he’s looking out the window- probably wondering where his parents will get the money for January’s rent and feeling guilty for daring to think about a gift. He’s pretty sensitive.

I have never admitted it to any of my friends, but I think I must be an atheist.

Please read the whole thing. It’s short, and it’s tender and touching.

The responses have been, almost predictably quite negative.

From her teacher, she got the comment that she couldn’t possibly be an atheist because she showed empathy for her friends, which of course is a trait that only Christians have.

But it didn’t end there. Comments came in on this writer’s small personal blog, including a set of them from someone claiming to be a baptist minister in her area. Many of the blog responses to this minister’s attacks on the girl’s parenting come from personal friends of the mother. As I said, it’s a small, personal blog.

It can’t end there. The story can’t end there with the ugliness of people’s angry responses. The girl’s essay is inspiring, sympathetic and moving. She said more with just a couple paragraphs than the 100 or so email responses trying to attack her mother’s parenting or defend her.

I’m raising a daughter who I hope has the same generosity of spirit of the girl who wrote this.

Siamang

56 Responses to "“What I Want for Christmas”"

  • Comment by: David S

    1 01/23/07 11:49 AM | Comment Link |

    How old is that kid? She writes better than most adults I know (including me).

  • Comment by: Siamang

    2 01/23/07 11:59 AM | Comment Link |

    Eleven!

  • Comment by: Siamang

    3 01/23/07 12:04 PM | Comment Link |

    Read the last four posts on her blog in order if you want to follow the thread of discussion between the girl’s mother and the Baptist minister, William.

    In the last one, she got an email from a baptist who was an attendee of the minister’s church where he brought up the essay in a bible study.

    He called her an ambassador of sin and a spy doing Satan’s work!

    I’m guessing he doesn’t want to be profiled on Church Rater!

  • Comment by: David S

    4 01/23/07 12:08 PM | Comment Link |

    I’m leaning to think the story is made up… it’s too good. The writing is too good… the irony of a teacher telling an atheist student after class that she has “Christian empathy” that the Christian teacher herself did not have is too perfect.

    I like the post but the skeptic in me doubts it’s real.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    5 01/23/07 12:20 PM | Comment Link |

    I thought the essay was great. But I’ve been reading the comments, and other than the guy pretending to be a baptist minister and his wife, and some guy named John, the comments were overwhelmingly supportive.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t believe for a second that that was really a baptist minister or his wife. It was so filled with the the stereotypical rhetoric and “things Christians would say” that at read like a bad cartoon.

    A few choice quotes …

    how can you deny your child the beauty of God and His promises? How can you deny your children the love that comes from choosing Christ?

    Ignorant Christians!

    It’s obvious that your daughter is already lost. You will allow her to spin off in to the darkness of atheism and all of those consequences? I will pray for your daughter and for your family and that your “smart” children will see that there choices are not smart and that all of the wisdom in the world can not by you the love that comes from simply accepting Jesus Christ into your heart.

    Nice … mixing the hateful God banishing his daughter to hell with the loooove of Christ. Right. Boy, them Christians sure is ignorant! And pigheaded!

    That was not written by a Baptist minister. It’s way too stereotypical and charicature-like - IMO nothing more than an attempt to make christians look bad.

    Or if was, I just ask you as one reasonable person to another … disregard the comments of this whacko. That’s not what Christians are like.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    6 01/23/07 12:24 PM | Comment Link |

    If it’s made up, then the author has a whole bunch of sock-puppet friends posting follow-ups in the comments.

    I think it’s true because there are a good number of people posting there who know the parties involved personally and it doesn’t ring false to them.

    There are smart 11-year-olds out there. This child is the child of a scientist and a writer. Probably a very well-read (almost 12 year old) child.

    You said the writing is too good? Why is that so? Are you saying that no eleven year old in America is that good a writer? Sure the odds are against any PARTICULAR 11 year old being that good, but the bad 11 year old writers aren’t being linked-to by widely read blogs where I picked this up, via Rasmussen and Phyrangula.

    I can believe an 11 year old had that experience and can write well about it. There are millions who don’t have that experience or don’t write well about it. We won’t hear about them.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    7 01/23/07 12:24 PM | Comment Link |

    Read the last four posts on her blog in order if you want to follow the thread of discussion between the girl’s mother and the Baptist minister, William

    Where? I don’t see it.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    8 01/23/07 12:27 PM | Comment Link |

    If it’s true … I am now formally distancing myself from that man. Please don’t cagegorize me (or all Christians) with him.

    I am curious to read what you referred to above if you can point me in the right direction.

  • Comment by: David S

    9 01/23/07 12:36 PM | Comment Link |

    Siamang, I lean to doubting it for the reasons I stated. It’s not that there can’t be 11 year olds would can write that well in a pop-essay given 10 minutes… and have a perfect “atheist faith promoting” situation in the story also… but I think it’s more likely someone simply made up the whole story. I’d give it 40% likely to be true over 60% likely to be false based on just what I see (which isn’t much).

    I have the same reaction to similar stories that I see that are Christian faith promoting. It could be true, but it just seems too perfect.

    I hope it is true :)

    Oh, and I don’t doubt the Baptist minister for one second. That’s exactly what they are like and if you doubt it try being an atheist sometime.

  • Comment by: Stephan

    10 01/23/07 12:36 PM | Comment Link |

    I found the initial essay to be quite interesting, but the response on both sides to be quite disturbing.

    The part that bothered me the most is that the child, based on one minister’s negative response, has decided that Christianity can’t be true, and her mom supported that conclusion. Her mom claims that she wants her child to use critical thinking and find her own spiritual path, but that is clearly not the case, or she would have exposed this entirely illogical conclusion.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    11 01/23/07 12:38 PM | Comment Link |

    A lot of conspiracy theories going around here.

    Let’s tie them to each other here.

    David thinks that the essay is too good to have come from a real 11 year old.

    Mike O thinks the comments are too bad to come from a Baptist minister.

    In this thread, a person who the mother says is a friend of hers visited the minister’s church and young adult bible study, where they discussed the letter. Later in the comments, the alleged minister does not dispute that he did discuss this letter in his bible study.

    So is the “minister” the “friend” and the “mother” all the same person, or a gang of conspirators?

  • Comment by: Siamang

    12 01/23/07 12:48 PM | Comment Link |

    Mike O wrote:

    I am curious to read what you referred to above if you can point me in the right direction.

    Yeah, here you go.

    The original post is this one. Read the underthreaded comments to read the responses from the alleged minister.

    The second post in the series is this one. I don’t think there’s any reaction from William in it.

    The third one is here. She responds directly to william, and his reactions are comments below.

    And here is the thread where someone apparantly visited Williams adult bible study at his church. Reactions follow below that.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    13 01/23/07 12:50 PM | Comment Link |

    Reading David’s coment

    Oh, and I don’t doubt the Baptist minister for one second. That’s exactly what they are like and if you doubt it try being an atheist sometime.

    That’s a great point. You may be right about him, it just smacks of being too cartoony and too “useful” to the non-Christian perspective. But speaking as a Christian, I know we have a generous supply of bitter pills.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    14 01/23/07 12:52 PM | Comment Link |

    David S wrote:

    I have the same reaction to similar stories that I see that are Christian faith promoting. It could be true, but it just seems too perfect.

    But if it wasn’t perfect, I wouldn’t be linking to it!

  • Comment by: David S

    15 01/23/07 1:00 PM | Comment Link |

    So is the “minister” the “friend” and the “mother” all the same person, or a gang of conspirators?

    I haven’t read it all yet but if they’re all reacting to the story as written they don’t have to be conspirators… they might just might be acting off a false story.

    That and I don’t say the story is definitely false, but I give it odds at 60% for being false. The whole thing is too perfect: the essay topic (who gives that topic in 6th grade public school?), the essay itself (too perfect), teacher’s response (too perfect).

    And Mike… I find the minister’s comments quite normal, ordinary and believeable from my experience. Heck, I’ve received worse from my own family. You’re the exception Mike, not him.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    16 01/23/07 1:04 PM | Comment Link |

    OK, I take it back … after reading more from Wm, I’m afraid he’s for real.

    And on behalf of Christians everywhere, I’M SORRY! We’re not all like that.

  • Comment by: Stephan

    17 01/23/07 1:05 PM | Comment Link |

    You’re the exception Mike, not him.

    I’m hoping the minister is a member of a vocal minority and people like Mike are the majority. I could be wrong.

  • Comment by: David S

    18 01/23/07 1:08 PM | Comment Link |

    I’m hoping the minister is a member of a vocal minority and people like Mike are the majority. I could be wrong.

    Hopefully.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    19 01/23/07 1:08 PM | Comment Link |

    You know what would be fun … to pose as an atheist for a while. Take a month and start attending another church where nobody knows me and see what happens. I can act … I’m sure I can “do” an atheist. I probably won’t, but it would be interesting.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    20 01/23/07 1:13 PM | Comment Link |

    Stephen … baby … what if it’s just you and me?

    I know it’s not because I have lots of likeminded Christian friends. And there’s the whole off-the-map thing I’ve been hearing so dang much about. But what if we just don’t see it?? I mean, I’ve seen it, but it’s not been typical to me.

  • Comment by: Stephan

    21 01/23/07 1:27 PM | Comment Link |

    As an aside, people are often much more blunt and rude online than they are in person, so this guy may be just swell in person and a jerk online. The anonymity of the keyboard can bring out the worst in people. I have a friend who posts over at Sojourners, and if that’s all I knew of him I would this he’s a jerk. He’s really a decent guy, but his dark side comes out when he types anonymously online.

    I have been trying to learn the new adage myself - Don’t Post Angry.

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    22 01/23/07 1:38 PM | Comment Link |

    Wow - that is an impressive essay for an 11 year old! I would say it’s not the writing of an average 11 year old but it could be the essay of a smart one who is good at writing.

    And I could imagine a teacher saying the remark about the child not being an atheist because she was caring, if the teacher doesn’t know any atheists. It’s the sort of unfortunate misconception people have, evidently.

    And I could believe that a Baptist could say the remarks quoted. Although it is wise to bear in mind that people can mimick others on the Internet and sometimes do.

  • Comment by: David S

    23 01/23/07 1:41 PM | Comment Link |

    I don’t think he’s angry. I think he hates atheists. Just as he hates that Satan character. I don’t think he even really knows any personally or what they are about, but he really really hates them.

  • Comment by: Keith

    24 01/23/07 2:32 PM | Comment Link |

    Oh, and I don’t doubt the Baptist minister for one second. That’s exactly what they are like and if you doubt it try being an atheist sometime.

    David, I have not experienced ministers from an atheist’s point of view because I am not an atheist, so my post here may be off-base due to lack of perspective. I do know that guys like William exist and have hurt a lot of people.

    That said, how can you say that he is representative of ministers as a whole? I am a minister. Are William and I “exactly” alike? Have I interacted with you and others in the same manner William interacted with possummomma? I have tried to have your back when ‘Crock was badmouthing you on the debate board. And I will have your back again in the future. Please have my back as well, and do not lump all ministers in the same boat.

  • Comment by: David S

    25 01/23/07 2:51 PM | Comment Link |

    That said, how can you say that he is representative of ministers as a whole?

    I didn’t mean to suggest he was representative of ministers as a whole. I was only meaning that his post was ordinary and believable–on par with what I see all the time as “drive by” postings in blogs and discussions. I hope with Stephan that he’s of a vocal minority. I hope all the people that have said similar things to me over the years are just a vocal minority.

  • Comment by: Keith

    26 01/23/07 3:10 PM | Comment Link |

    I was only meaning that his post was ordinary and believable

    Agreed. Thanks for the clarification, David.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    27 01/23/07 3:25 PM | Comment Link |

    Good points, Keith.

  • Comment by: MTran

    28 01/23/07 4:32 PM | Comment Link |

    Boy, this topic has really kicked up a lot of conversation!

    The Rev. William character fits all the worst stereotypes of the extreme fundamentalist preacher image. I never actually met one of these types at any of the churches I attended during my youth, though I heard about them. I thought they were a thing of the past and then…

    These are the idiot loudmouths who make all believers look bad. They are also the ones that caused me to become more assertive about my atheism and less tolerant of superstitious nonsense spouted as “truth” and then pushed as the basis of legislation or governmental policy.

    Can anyone tell me why these extremists have become so popular among large segments of the American population? I’ve been stymied by this question for a long time.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    29 01/23/07 4:46 PM | Comment Link |

    Supposedly william’s wife posted this one:

    My husband read your daughters essay to our family at dinner. From one mother to another I want to pray for you. I will pray that God softens your heart and shows you the error of your ways. Your poor babies are going to burn in hell if you continue to lead them astray and teach them that science and so called logic prevail.

    Has ANYONE ever been won over by “your babies will burn in hell”?!?!?

    To quote Michael Scott from
    “The Office”, ‘I don’t understand how someone can have so little self-awareness!’

  • Comment by: Rachel

    30 01/23/07 6:51 PM | Comment Link |

    Can anyone tell me why these extremists have become so popular among large segments of the American population?

    I’m not sure they really are all that popular, just noisy. For example, Pat Robertson’s 700 Club has an annual viewership of 863,000 people. That means that 3/10ths of one percent of Americans actually watch Pat Robertson. And the only reason 700 Club is still on the air is because ABC Family is contractually obligated to air it. But every time Pat says some nasty or ridiculous thing, his face is all over the media. I think we should all make a pact to completely ignore Pat, just like you do with a child who keeps misbehaving to get attention.

  • Comment by: MTran

    31 01/23/07 7:49 PM | Comment Link |

    Thanks, Rachel. I’m not surprised you would be up on those statistics! I really wish that the media wouldn’t focus exclusively on the worst examplars of any viewpoint. It distorts the discussions way too much and inflames criticism needlessly.

  • Comment by: Mike O

    32 01/23/07 9:57 PM | Comment Link |

    Dude! Another “Office” fan! I knew there was something I liked about you!

    Back to the minister’s wife’s comments … the “your babies will burn in hell” crack was another one that made me think it was a sham. But after all I’ve seen from them, I believe it’s true now.

    Oh, and back to the teacher … inappropriate though her comment may have been, she did give the girl an A+. At least she had the wherewithal to grade her fairly on the quality and insight with which she wrote the essay.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    33 01/23/07 10:52 PM | Comment Link |

    Yeah, that one got me wondering as well.

    But there are people so unself aware as to say things like that. The Jesus Camp movie proved that.

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    34 01/24/07 5:24 PM | Comment Link |

    Add me to the list of ‘Office’ fans!

  • Comment by: Siamang

    35 01/24/07 10:35 PM | Comment Link |

    “Possum#1″, the author of the piece, has responded to skeptics:

    There have been several adults who’ve doubted my writing skills. I want to ask them if they could program a computer when they were eleven? I doubt that many could. However, in this era, it’s not uncommon for an eleven year old to have that skill. In the 2004 and 2006 Olympic games, we saw children do amazing things. Why should a command of language be any different from a triple axel or a piked, double back? Not everyone can do those things, but those who practice the skill can. I love reading, writing, and science. I read four or five books a week. Sarah Vowell, Dave Barry and Thomas Paine are my inspirations. My favorite games are; Scrabble, Scattergories, and Balderdash. If I were devoting twelve hours a week to gymnastics, I don’t think anyone would question my ability to do a double full, Yurchenko on the vault. But, because I chose to practice “words”, rather than walkovers, I’m labeled a fraud. What a ludicrous double standard. It would seem that our standards and priorities are way out of tune if we applaud the gymnast and lambast the writer.
    I really appreciate the majority of people who had kind words. Thank you.

    Possums can be feisty!

    As Lou Grant once said: “Kid, you’ve got spunk. ….. I hate spunk.”

    ;-)

  • Comment by: Siamang

    36 01/24/07 10:36 PM | Comment Link |

    And any kid reading Sarah Vowell gets my approval!

  • Comment by: Mike O

    37 01/25/07 7:00 AM | Comment Link |

    But there are people so unself aware as to say things like that. The Jesus Camp movie proved that.

    As an aside, I just heard on the radio this AM that Jesus Camp is up for an Oscar … I think for best documentary.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    38 01/25/07 11:13 AM | Comment Link |

    Yep.

  • Comment by: Btriss

    39 01/26/07 2:23 AM | Comment Link |

    It may take some searching/googling to find it, but I am certain of reading a very similar “pop-essay” authored by someone else’s brilliant child — a son, in that case — of a discussion board poster. It was back a couple of years ago, around the time there were several such discussions; mostly spurred on by the publicity surrounding that man’s law suit over the use of God in the pledge of allegance at his daughter’s school.

    Although, I think I would characterize this to be more of a case of (opportunistic) plagiarism than fraud.

    Regardless, this last entry (supposedly) by the 11-year old daughter, is…quite simply…very sad.

    Tis rather disturbing and unconscionable that this mother, would involve her 11-year old daughter further, into this heated controversy on HER blogsite.

    Tsk Tsk

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    40 01/26/07 7:19 AM | Comment Link |

    What’s wrong with the mother letting her child see the controversy on her website?

    If her child is old enough to write the way he/she did then I think he/she is old enough to see how people react to it on his/her mother’s website.

    I think there’s a huge difference between a man using his four or five year old to argue about the pledge of allegiance and a mother letting an eleven year old see what people have said about the eleven year old’s own writing.

    If I post anything about my children I let them know and they generally want to see what I posted (one is eleven and one is thirteen).

  • Comment by: Btriss

    41 01/26/07 1:00 PM | Comment Link |

    Quite frankly, I doubt the 11-year old daughter authored the essay, as posted, or the subsequent response — under that premise, I question whether or not the daughter is even aware of the content concerning her on her mother’s blogspot.

    Nevertheless, I suppose my initial thought had more to do with my personal opinion and objection, to this mother using her child, as a tool or another way, to further her atheist stance and/or political agenda on her blogspot (which is rather obvious by the mother’s blogspot moniker). In this respect, I do not see any real difference in the underlying motives of this mother and the man in the case of using his child in HIS pledge of allegiance lawsuit.

    I suppose I am also of the opinion that there is such little time for a child to be a child, that it’s somehow unfair to prematurely plunge them into adult situations and debates, that they’ll have a lifetime to participate in, ahead of them.

  • Comment by: Btriss

    42 01/26/07 1:04 PM | Comment Link |

    My comment is awaiting moderation ???

    LOL

  • Comment by: Mike O

    43 01/26/07 1:31 PM | Comment Link |

    I used to woner about the moderation, too, but have since learned that it’s not personal … sometimes it does that systematically. I don’t know what the triggers are, btu it wasn’t personal.

    When I got moderated, it was becasue I had excessive links in my post, so it got flagged as potentially hazardous. COuld that be what happened to yours?

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    44 01/26/07 2:10 PM | Comment Link |

    Btriss, I approved your comment - it’s showing now (#41). I don’t understand the moderation system - I don’t know what sets it off either.

    If the mother is simply using her 11 year old to further her own agenda then I agree, that’s wrong.

    But I don’t see how we can be sure of the mother’s motives.

    I think it’s natural for a parent to be pleased when a child indicates thinking for themselves and taking a stand because of their values.

    And I can see an 11 year old writing this way, especially given that she (?) is the oldest child.

    I also don’t see why anyone would write something themselves and invent the story that their child wrote it - that’s a motive that doesn’t make sense to me at all.

    And while I agree with not pushing children to grow up too quickly I think it can be equally unkind to try to push a child to be ‘more into childrens’ things’ if that’s not what the child is interested in anymore.

    Anyway both things can’t be true, can they? Either the mother is making this all up while her child plays with her American girl dolls - and so the child is not being pushed into adult situations. Or the child really did write what she is being said to have written and we don’t have evidence that she has been forced into this rather than having an interest of her own in it.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    45 01/26/07 4:03 PM | Comment Link |

    You can always tell when someone doesn’t agree with your point of view. They label your opinion “an agenda.”

    Btriss,

    I went to church on christmas. You know what they did? They dressed little children (many no older than 4 years old!) up as characters in their nativity play. Little kids dressed as angels, goats, cows, horses. A little girl dressed as Mary, a little boy dressed as Joseph, and a baby! A baby not even ONE YEAR OLD wrapped in swaddling clothes!

    I mean, here these poor innocent kids were being used as tools to further their parents Christian agenda! They know nothing of theology! They were merely props to support the christian ideology!

    I’m sorry to use sarcasm here. But I do need to point out a double-standard here. An eleven-year-old writes an essay on her beliefs and it’s jumped on, and her parents for making her daughter a “tool” to promote an “agenda”. If she was a christian, “witnessing” or whatever you call it, would you have the same reaction?

  • Comment by: Btriss

    46 01/26/07 4:08 PM | Comment Link |

    Well, I wasn’t seriously offended by the moderation — I merely thought it rather funny :) or perhaps just bemused by the notion, that something I had said, would have deemed the potential of what I might say next, subject to moderation; considering, I’ve always viewed myself, as being rather mild mannered, when expressing my opinions on the net. Of course, I did sorta drop in out of no-where, with my initial comment — so I suppose, moderation is a wise practice, as a measured precaution for your blogsite.

    Actually, if I hadn’t remembered reading, such an uncanny rendition of that “pop essay” in the past, on another board, I most likely would not have even posted a comment. Trust me, I do not have any hidden agenda, or otherwise, related to that woman’s endeavor to promote or defend atheism with her blogsite. If anything, I am bothered or simply annoyed, by what I consider too much of a coincidence, to believe the content of the “pop essay” being anything other than a failed attempt at plagiarism. Others may see it entirely different — which after all, is really what matters in a matter of perception.

  • Comment by: Btriss

    47 01/26/07 4:20 PM | Comment Link |

    Oh dear…

    Siamang, with all due respect, I am not challenging atheist ideology any more than I am defending religious or cultural practices in our society.

    As for the children portraying characters in a nativity play, I don’t find it any more outlandish or inappropriate than I do children dressing up to portray a turkey or pilgrims and indians in a Thanksgiving play in school. It’s what I consider “entertainment” meant to be fun and enjoyed by all those involved — either as a participant or member of the audience.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    48 01/26/07 4:22 PM | Comment Link |

    I don’t find children in a church play inappropriate either.

    But my larger question applies: If this was a child “witnessing”, singing in the church choir, acting as an altar boy, or doing anything promoting their religion, would you have the same problem with it?

  • Comment by: Btriss

    49 01/26/07 4:39 PM | Comment Link |

    BTW…

    “If she was a christian, “witnessing” or whatever you call it, would you have the same reaction?”

    Umm…I doubt I would have called it “witnessing” since prior to your inference, I wouldn’t have known that’s what a Christian would have called it.

    :)

    BTW…did it occur to you, that I might be something other than Christian? Just curious how that distinction was made.

  • Comment by: MTran

    50 01/26/07 5:15 PM | Comment Link |

    Btriss,

    I have also seen bogus “children’s” essays on the net, but they had tell tale signs of inauthenticity about them that I do not see in the possum#1 instance. Mere writing skills do not, to my mind, indicate that an adult did the writing. Nor does the coherent insightfulness.

    If you ask me “How many kids can write or think like that?” I’d say, quite a few. I’ve probably seen at least a hundred very young people capable of something similar. They are the minority, to be sure, but much more numerous than some commentators seem to think.

    What this highlights, for me, is the enormous potential that young people start with in life. And the huge disservice that is done to them in our supposed “education” system and even by some narrow visioned families.

    I dunno, I’ve always thought that young people and kids are not given enough credit. Maybe I’m just a 50+ kid at heart!

    If it turns out the whole possum#1 and preacher bit are nothing but a couple of sock puppets, I’ll look at it as great sock puppet theater that got lots of folks, including me, talking.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    51 01/26/07 5:25 PM | Comment Link |

    Btriss:

    BTW…did it occur to you, that I might be something other than Christian? Just curious how that distinction was made.

    That’s why I left it “whatever you call it” to leave the question open to you. I didn’t assume any particular thing, but I did get the impression that you thought that the mother had “an agenda.”

    You still haven’t answered my question, which is relevant whatever your beliefs are…

    Is childhood witnessing similarly suspect? Is it similarly “disturbing” or “unconscionable”?

    Correct me where my limited impressions of your view are mistaken, but you’ve used some strong language to speak against this. I’m looking to understand your point of view. Why is it unconscionable and disturbing to post a letter on a website? Why is it that this makes the younger person a “tool” for advancing “an agenda”?

    Why is the language you’re using so sinister, and do you apply it across the board, or only to atheists?

  • Comment by: Btriss

    52 01/26/07 7:15 PM | Comment Link |

    My apologies Helen, for not responding directly to your ealier entry — I’m not very thorough when it comes to adequately responding in discussions on the net, while simultaneously trying to work. (It’s the old analogy of not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time, that defintely applies to me, more often than not.)

    You asked/said…

    What’s wrong with the mother letting her child see the controversy on her website?

    If her child is old enough to write the way he/she did then I think he/she is old enough to see how people react to it on his/her mother’s website.

    IMO - There would have been absolutely nothing wrong, with letting her child see what was being said on her blogsite — IF — I believed, the pop-essay written, was indeed authored by the child. My contention and firm belief, is that the pop-essay — WAS NOT — a product of her 11-year old daughter’s on-the-spot, opinion and thoughts — in response to the spur-of-the-moment question posed by her teacher in class. My perception, is that the pop-essay, as written and presented, was a case of plagiarism — either in content or concept — or a little of both.

    Therefore, based upon my perception, I think you would agree that it would be rather unconscionable to then, further involve her 11-year old daughter (if, indeed she has) in this matter, as a means of somehow defending or further authenticating a plagiarized work.

    What puzzles me, moreso now, after the fact and after the subsequent entries here –is– what is the difference between my perception questioning and outright doubting the authenticity and veracity of what was written and/or by whom — than an atheist’s questions and outright doubts, based on THEIR perception of the authenticity and veracity of what was written in the Torah, the Bible or the Qur’an and/or by whom.

  • Comment by: Btriss

    53 01/26/07 7:28 PM | Comment Link |

    MTran…

    Maybe I’m just a 50+ kid at heart!

    Siamang…

    Why is the language you’re using so sinister, and do you apply it across the board, or only to atheists?

    Maybe — ’cause I am also a 50+ kid at heart, struggling with tendencies of a natural born cynic and just can’t help myself! ;)

  • Comment by: Ir (Helen)

    54 01/26/07 8:07 PM | Comment Link |

    Btriss wrote:

    What puzzles me, moreso now, after the fact and after the subsequent entries here —is— what is the difference between my perception questioning and outright doubting the authenticity and veracity of what was written and/or by whom — than an atheist’s questions and outright doubts, based on THEIR perception of the authenticity and veracity of what was written in the Torah, the Bible or the Qur’an and/or by whom.

    I’m not an atheist but speaking for myself the difference is, I can imagine an 11 year old writing that essay whereas I have a lot of trouble imagining the universe being created in 7 24 hour days, or a flood which covered the whole earth, or all the animals coming to Noah, etc.

    Just to be clear - it was the decision of a computer program to send one of your comments to moderation - no human was involved. And I don’t know what criteria that computer program uses.

  • Comment by: Siamang

    55 01/26/07 9:31 PM | Comment Link |

    I’d like to understand your position, Btriss. Is it that if the girl indeed wrote the piece herself then you’re fine with it?

  • Comment by: MTran

    56 01/27/07 1:12 AM | Comment Link |

    a case of plagiarism — either in content or concept

    Generally, there is no plagiarism of “concept.” Detective and medical shows proliferate on tv for many reasons, not the least of which is the public’s perception that these are glamorous or at least exciting professions and that the natural drama and dynamics make for rather easily written story lines and characters. This is not plagiarism, even if it is not particularly original.

    what is the difference between my perception questioning and outright doubting the authenticity and veracity of what was written and/or by whom — than an atheist’s questions and outright doubts, based on THEIR perception of the authenticity and veracity of what was written in the Torah, the Bible or the Qur’an and/or by whom.

    Can you really not see the difference? Or are you trying to be provocative?

    Atheist rejection of Bible stories is not based on mere personal perceptions. Rather it is based on the absence of supporting evidence for any of the miraculous tales and only meager evidence for the quasi-historical tales.

    It’s a lot more likely that an 11 year old wrote one heck of an essay than it is to believe just about any of the fairy tales in the Bible. Plus, possum#1’s identitiy has a present possibility of being determined.

    Beyond that, who cares? The possum family doesn’t appear to have violent adherents who will enforce some bizarre value and belief system on everyone else.

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