Posted by Siamang on: 05.14.2007 /
Or: How NOT to Witness to Atheists
By Siamang
Hemant’s website, Friendly Atheist has been flooded with fans of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron’s “Way of the Master” name-brand of Christian evangelism.
Yeah. Fun.
Last week Hemant wrote a bunch of posts that spawned discussion leading up to and following the Nightline face off starring the pair. That seemed to call Com/Cam Masters out of the woodwork.
I’m sure folks here are familiar enough with Com/Cam and their tactics. If not, here’s my impression:
“Ten commandments. If you ever told a lie you’re a liar. If you stole a piece of candy when you were five, you’re a thief. If you’ve looked at another person you’re an adulterer. If I’m wrong, nothing happens, but if I’m right and you’re judged by almighty God at judgement day, by your own admission you’re a lying, thieving, blaspheming adulterer, how should you be judged….”
It’s a high-pressure sales script that sounds like it was written by a telemarketer. I’ve watched the Way of the Master shows, I’ve heard Ray use that script on podcasts. He never varies it at all. “If you’ve ever told a lie, Press ONE. If you’ve ever stolen something, even as a child, Press TWO or stay on the line!”
And that’s the general tack used by the first-time posters who descended on the Friendly Atheist site.
I complained about this sticking to a script on a discussion on Friendly Atheist. I said that Ray doesn’t ever LISTEN to the person he’s preaching at. He makes zero attempt to understand where a person is in their life and meeting them there. This is the response I got from poster Betty:
That’s because the message is the same for everybody. God will judge justly–everyone according to the same standard. He won’t bend or change His Law.
Wait a minute… I thought God’s message was the Gospels, not Ray’s telemarketing script. If you’re saying that God’s message is the same for everybody, why aren’t you preaching the Gospel? Why are you preaching things that were written by Ray Comfort?
If you’re going to preach something other than the Gospels, as a way to get people to understand their message, doesn’t it make sense to listen to the person you’re talking to and have a conversation rather than preach at them? Until you know where I’ve been and who I am, merely barking a pre-rolled script at me does neither of us any good.
So here’s a nickle’s worth of free advice to evangelists seeking to convert atheists: learn our stories first.
Siamang.
Comment by: Karen
1I’ve been pondering what in the world these people think they’re doing with their cut-and-paste sermons? How would some canned evangelism script EVER be effective when talking to real people? Let’s not even go into how insulting, belittling and plain ol’ kooky many of them are. (At least some are good for laughs.)
What I realized is that as a conservative evangelical I was taught that “nothing goes out void.” That means any evangelistic effort you make will eventually reap some reward through the power of the holy spirit.
So, the line goes, it doesn’t really matter WHAT they say. As long as they say something, they believe god will supernaturally make it attractive to those nonbelievers that he is “calling to himself.” I wonder if that’s what is going on with these drive-by evangelists? Has anyone else heard this kind of teaching?
Comment by: Tim
2Can I say Amen? lol
Totally right, Siamang. As a Christian, I believe that we need to get to know people. Not just to convert them, but just because. My passion is People, because Jesus’ Passion was people!
And once again, too true! I think we need to tell people what God says…not what someone even anointed evangelists fall short of the Glory of God!
Anyway, on the atheists side. I completely see how that might offend someone into being pushed farther away from Christ. That’s my personal opinion, though….
Comment by: Siamang
3The part that I find most frustrating about it, including the influx of posters on Hemant’s site, is this..
I’m not part of this discussion to “prove” things to people. I’m not posting to make people become atheists. I’m posting in order to have a discussion with give and take, where I’m dialoguing with people, so I can better learn how to talk to people of faith.
If all they do is some cut-and-paste drive-by preaching, then I might as well not be part of that conversation.
Oh, and the same was true of discussions on the Internet Infidels board, but in the other direction. I had nothing to gain from posting there except more butting heads against people who didn’t listen.
Comment by: Dan Harlow
4I too have got fed up with some of the postings over at Hemant’s site. In fact, I got so fed up I wrote a post on my site that explains how best to convert an atheist to Christianity.
Of course, I can only speak for myself, but the commentor Tim on this thread brings up the best point :
Doing a little bit of listening can do wonders. Heck, even if someone is unable to “convert” an atheist, at least they made a new friend.
Comment by: Mike O
5To me, it all comes down to why Com/Cam are doing what they are doing. If it’s to “win lost souls,” then they should want to get their message out in the most effective way possible.
I’ve listened to Way of the Master one time (Hement’s interview). I never listened again. I cringe when I think of the effect they have on non-believers.
I guess here’s my point … EVEN IF THEY’RE RIGHT, they are so abrasive that no non-Christian would want to be like that. Who would want to convert to what they are? And I’m a Christian!
I agree with Tim … it’s all about relationships, and having relationships with people regardless of whether or not they ever convert. Becoming a Christian is a spiritual transaction, not merely a mental one. There is no argument I or anyone else can make to convince someone to become a Christian. It’s spiritual.
If I’m wrong and there is no spirit, then I’m wrong. But at least I haven’t sacrificed my friendships. But if I’m right, I’ve placed the responsibility for the souls of my friends in God’s hands (where it belongs).
I am a follower of Christ. If my life and message are appealing to others, then perhaps they’ll follow him, too. I just think it’s pretty hard to love someone when you’re clotheslining them.
In my mind’s eye, I don’t see non-Christians walking away from a conversation with Com/Cam saying,”you’re right. I want what you have.” I see the Com/Cam message resonating with lifer Christians who have forgotten what it’s like to need a saviour … who have forgotten how much they have been saved from.
Who is Com/Cam in this parable? I want to be the other guy.
Comment by: Siamang
6The problem with that parable is that EVERYONE thinks they’re the tax collector. Everyone thinks they’re humble before God or before their peers.
If you read that parable to Com/Cam they’d say “EXACTLY!!! That Pharisee is like an atheist who thinks he can get into heaven by not being a robber or an adulterer! But only those who have humbled themselves before the Lord can be exalted! Just like me and my good buddy from TV’s Growing Pains!”
I see Com/Cam from the outside of their worldview and can see what a wake of discord they leave. But to them, not even the Bible is a useful admonishment, because their worldview is internally consistant. They read the Bible through the lens that they are righteous people. None of the admonishments apply to them.
It’s the simplistic worldview that I think George Bush has. He can be cool with torture, indefinite detainment without charges etc because he thinks “We’re the Good Guys.” He’s so focused on the idea that we’re the good guys that the actual morality of his deeds can’t enter into the question. He seems to think that there’s no such thing as an evil deed done with good intentions.
Back to Com/Cam, nobody could effectively instruct them as to what’s wrong with their methods, as they seem to live in a bubble of their own making.
I firmly think that we are drawn to religious belief if the people we most admire and want to be like hold that belief. And in that way Com/Cam are turning people away from Christ one burned bridge at a time.
Sometimes I wonder what I’d say if I saw Comfort street preaching (I’ve seen video of him near some of my local stomping grounds.)
I might reverse Pascal’s wager on him: “What if what God really hates is assholes? If I’m wrong, no big deal, you’re just nice in life and more people will like you. But if I’m RIGHT, then you are headed for Hell, my assholic friend!”
Comment by: Mike O
7Yup. there’s no way I can prove I’m the tax collector. I just hope I am, I guess. But then I think you kind of hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph. If you’re an asshole, you’re probably not the tax collector.
I liked your reverse Pascal’s wager. I might have to use that sometime.
Comment by: Siamang
8I mean, obviously you might clean it up and say “acting like a jerk.”
But if you set it up just right, it might be the coup de grace.
Like first get him to admit or acknowlege that he’s being a jerk. Cam/Com would probably agree to that, but maintain that they were trying to shock you or “convict” you (in Christianese).
If you can get him to admit that he’s doing it, then you use the reverse Pascal.
That’s when the crowd of onlookers hoot and holler.
(See, I’ve thought this through.)
;-)
Comment by: Mike O
9It almost sounds like it should be a verse … don’t be a jerk.
“Master, which is the greatest commandment?”
“Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all they soul and all thy strength. And the second is like unto it - don’t be a jerk.”
Comment by: Siamang
10Jesus asked Peter, “Do you love me?” Peter answered, “Lord, you know all things, you know that I love you..”
“Feed my sheep,” came the reply.
Not ‘Berate and abuse my sheep so much that they’ll join the flock just to stop your insufferable badgering.’
Comment by: Pastor Chris
11I appreciate the story. I appreciate as well the invitation to listen to the story.
You and the comments raise some great questions about the 10 commandments script. I like how you call it a telemarketing script, I may have to use that phrase when I’m teaching.
Pastor Chris
Evangelism Coach.org
Comment by: Phil
12Thank you for posting this, Siamang. The insight in your comments is phenomenal. As a follower of Jesus myself I completely agree with you about listening and treating people like people who have individual stories. This is, after all, how Jesus treated people. He didn’t treat any two people the same way.
I’ve learned a great deal about this throughout this year as I’ve made several good friends in the Secular Student Union (primarily atheist club) at the campus I work at (UW in Seattle.) I hope more people become aware of this site and you and Hemant’s insight!
Comment by: Phil
13Incidentally, I thought I should mention that I’m on staff with the InterVarsity Christian Fellowship group that is co-sponoring the “I bought his Sould on eBay” event at UW. Glad I can play my part in creating more dialogue.
Comment by: Siamang
14Great!
Awesome, Phil. I was really glad to hear that your group and the secular group were co-sponsoring the Jim Henderson talk.
I always hope that our conversation here will spread into the wider world. Thanks for doing that.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
15Mike
I love when you swear
Comment by: Mike O
16It’s more effective when it’s very sparse. I remember one time a looooong time ago when my wife dropped the F-bomb on me.
VERY effective.