Posted by Siamang on: 05.21.2007 /
Sometimes you wonder, are we getting through to anyone?
Right now, Friendly Atheist.com is getting a lotta traffic… much of it not getting the idea of the title of the page and blasting through the culture of listening and sharing that Hemant has tried to foster there.
On one discussion, a first-time poster named Axel wrote in part:
One thing is for sure, we must all die and if there’s a God, what then? Continue to seek the truth in your own way to discover why you are here and what happens when your time is up - and it will come. Death and taxes are inevitable.. God Bless you all. - Axel.
I responded with:
Axel, please tell us about yourself. This is usually a place for listening and sharing. I think you have come here to prove something or bait someone into a debate.
This site has been inundated with new posters recently who are contributing to a more rancorous tone. I hope that you will join us in attempting to make this place a place where listening is more important than proving something.
Richard Wade responded in part:
Please read Siamang’s response to you with an open mind and open heart. Don’t worry about being open; those beliefs that are important to you will not be in jeopardy. The only thing that might change is your attitude toward people who are different from you. Since the airing of the “debate” between Cameron/Carson and Sapient/Kelly this site has been visited by many people who seem to be spoiling for a fight, looking for a victory, hoping to score a conversion, or other kinds of motives that I consider aggression. Siamang has been making a heroic effort to respond to many, many of these often very negative commentors by offering positive and intelligent dialogue in return. A few of the new visitors are responding in kind, and many are not. What Siamang is doing is out of his loving and sincere heart. But I think he’s getting exhausted, so talk to me too.
It’s been 9 days since we posted those responses, and we’ve heard nothing more from Axel or any other new visitors on that thread making any comments on our civility and hospitality after Axel’s veiled threats of death and damnation.
Richard Wade also wrote this, from this discussion:
Sadly a few people from any group will live up to the negative stereotypes that other groups hold against them, whether it’s atheists, Christians or whatever. There are just enough to keep the bigotry going. For instance, many people think all atheists are rude and hostile to people of faith. I try hard to not confirm their negative expectations by my own conduct because such stereotypes hurt everyone. I strive to remain patient and respectful even when it’s not returned in kind. Hostility begets hostility on both sides and opportunity for understanding is lost.
In the past few days, I attempted to run a charitable remembrance of Jerry Falwell, and even defended a call for peace and respect in regard to his passing. Asking atheists to please be more respectful.
I’ve posted that I dislike the shenanigans of Brian Sapient and the Rational Response Squad, including their “Day of Reason” blood drive.
Things have gotten bad there, recently. To the point that I had decided to bow out of conversations that were growing more and more rancorous and I found myself losing my patience:
I can see that discussions here have taken a sharp turn for the worse since Hemant started running articles about Comfort and Cameron, and their fanbase has arrived.
On Off-the-Map, I found a community of Christians I am very proud to know. They are kind, loving, very thoughtful and very articulate people with a great deal of charity in their hearts. They speak with love, not with anger. They come to lift up other people, not condemn them.
Later in the thread, which had devolved into multiple shouting matches about everything from evolution, to nazis to abortion I wrote this:
Jon.
I’m going to respond because it’s the polite thing to do when you’ve written to me directly.
I’ve decided to no longer take part in the current discussions spawned from the Cameron/Comfort stories. They have become too rancorous and they’re completely opposite of what the Friendly Atheist culture is about. This is exactly the kind of discussion I’ve come here to get away from. There are a million and one places on the internet where atheists and Christians can argue about evolution, each with smug, self-gratified tones. This place usually is different.
I do hope you stick around if you are interested in dialogues where listening is more important than proving something. We used to have a lot more of that before the current influx of posters that the Nightline story attracted.
Hopefully that positive tone will return soon. Hopefully you will decide to stick around for it, and you’ll be a positive contributor to it.
Siamang,
So it’s cool to challenge a Christian when he brings up facts about the gaping holes in logic regarding evolution just so long as he doesn’t defend himself? And then back out of it by taking the “holier than thou” approach when he does?
If that is what the “community” is about, then I don’t think I’ll be sticking around. The irenic atmosphere that you think you have is a facade because it is only irenic just so long as everyone smiles and nods and no one makes any claim to know anything. Post modernism at its best. Welcome to the brave new world.
Jon
Well, Richard Wade is right…. I am getting exhausted. I expend myself attempting to meet vitriol with kindness, bile with a welcoming spirit and even explicit damnation with an open heart and a forgiving tone.
And one by one, every day, more first-time posters log in to preach at us and leave and we positive voices (and this includes Christians too) just cannot match the continuing onslaught of people whose sole desire is to make “Friendly Atheist” just as bitter and loud and annoying as everywhere ELSE on the internet where people argue without listening.
I am coming to a feeling of understanding more about how emergent church Christians must feel. How do you even talk about Christ in such a horrible asmosphere, except in the bubble of your own church, surrounded by the like-minded? How can you bring Christ into your daily life in the larger world, when the well of public discourse has been so poisoned?
Others at Friendly Atheist are with me in trying to set a better example. But I really do wonder if we’re getting through to anyone at all. Folks just post whatever they want, then abandon the site after they set off their flame war bombs.
And then even our own beloved Mike O asked this question in a follow up to his post “The Tide is Turning”.
I was just asking if atheists distance themselves from your more antagonistic spokespersons. I mean, don’t you ever say, “Geez, I wish he wouldn’t say/do that … it makes us look bad.”
Oh man! Sometimes I feel like I’m saying nothing BUT that!
Anyway, I’m getting frustrated. Is there any point to being a friendly atheist when people just want to see you angry so they can have a good old online scrap?
Can anyone here say that it’s done an iota of good?
Comment by: Ir (Helen)
1Siamang, if there weren’t friendly atheists there’s no way I would agree to being called almost-an-atheist. That means you are making a difference although people might disagree whether it’s a good one or not ;-)
The online world is frustrating - people come and go, they aren’t accountable for what they post and it’s easy for them (and us) to ignore the reality that human beings are at the receiving end.
Are you making any difference in the rest of your life? Sure. You’ll never raise a child who is beguiled into following a false belief system just because the people in it are ‘friendly’ to her. And the people you are with every day who know you’re an atheist are consistently confronted with the reality that atheists can be decent friendly people.
You’ve made a huge difference here at Off The Map. If no friendly atheists posted here we would have closed this blog a while ago. There are more than enough places on the Internet already where Christians and atheists debate and argue, trying to score points off each other. There’s no reason for us to host one more.
In fact this blog would never have existed had Jim not run into the friendly atheist Hemant.
When I first found this blog I liked reading what Hemant and Jim posted but it was your interactions with Jim in the comments that really got my attention.
So don’t give up - but I would suggest taking a break from any places you’re finding particularly frustrating. At least a temporary break.
Comment by: Keith
2Siamang, I cannot express how much I have appreciated you. I especially remember a conversation you and I had about evolution on the debate board at off-the-map where you legitimately helped me better understand it. I went to that goofy conference ready to think through what I heard. IMO, that conversation was mutually congenial regarding an issue that so many want to throw flames about. Conversations like that give me hope that we can learn from one another. So, perhaps you can chalk that up to at least one iota of good. You helped me a great deal through that dialogue.
More difficult to quantify is the encouraging way you post. You are the master of the one-line post, such as, “Karen in the hizz-house” or whatever. It’s little stuff, but it moves each conversation toward a more friendly vein. You have - as much as anyone atheist/Christian - tried to bridge the gap when the flamethrowers would come out. You had my back more than once at off-the-map, and I still appreciate it.
Thanks for being a friendly atheist. The combined efforts of so many have impacted all of us. The following is all conjecture, and I don’t pretend to know what others think - just guessing but here goes - I think that Mike C. feels less alone, I think that Eliza knows more about Lutheran belief than before, I think that Julie Marie feels more honest, Tx feels more hopeful (if only a little - Texas is a hard place to be atheist), Helen has more of a voice, and Jim has been increasingly validated … I could try to go on. I have grown in ways I can’t describe. All of this is related to off-the-map and goals of friendly atheists and Christians who have been a part of it.
I don’t know why so many post a bomb and run, but some stay and grow. Don’t give up, bro. Who you are and what you do does not go unnoticed. You matter.
Comment by: M Wms
3If everyone whose intentions are to engage in friendly, kind, courteous, genuinely curious, open-minded, compassionate listening and conversing leaves the blogosphere, it _will_ just become a ‘horrible’ unfriendly place. And there will be no models and no space for any other way of relating beyond shouting matches and flame-throwing. At least there are pockets of light and friendliness now. Friendly Atheist is one of them, and I’m very glad you’re here, willing to talk across hard boundaries. Thanks.
Comment by: Stephan
4Siamang, I understand and feel your frustration. That is why I took a bit of a hiatus from posting. I felt it was getting nowhere.
The problem with the web is that it brings out the vocal radicals from both sides, and it brings out the worst in people because of its inherent lack of accountability. So, in essence, you are getting the worst of the worst.
The fact that people like you, Hemant, Richard Wade and others even exist (along with people like the Mikes (O. and C.), Jim, Keith et al) ultimately makes it worthwhile. There will still be angry, loud voices, and they will still drown out the reasonable voices from time to time, but you are making a difference. Have no doubt about that.
I have learned to distinguish the people who will listen from those who will not, and I do not spend my time and energy on people who are only interested in debate. I know their minds are closed and they are only looking to prove that they are right. At first (and I’m sure you remember this) I would fire off an angry reply. Later I would write the angry reply, then delete it before I posted it. Now I don’t even type it (although I might still think it).
We will never get the fringe radicals to shut up, but we can continue to work with the reasonable people in all camps to create civil discussion. I know you are contributing to that, and I hope I am too, at least on my good days.
Here’s the bottom line. You have made a difference in my life. If you consider me at least an iota, then you have indeed made at least an iota of difference.
Comment by: Stephan
5In short, Siamang, don’t get wrapped around the Axel.
(sorry, I simply couldn’t resist)
Comment by: Mike O
6I don’t know if you ever heard the story of the guy throwing starfish into the sea so they wouldn’t die. And someone told him that there are millions of starfish on millions of beaches, and there’s just no way he would ever make a difference. In response, the guy picked up another starfish, threw it into the sea and said, “I made a difference to that one.”
Siamang, you made a difference to me. I see atheists in a COMPLETELY different light now than I did 10 months ago.
I used to think atheists just hadn’t thought the whole “god thing” through. Many have.
I used to think all atheists had a negative experience, driving them away from God. Many haven’t.
I used to think all atheists were against religion in general and Christianity in particular. Many aren’t.
I want to encourage you that because of the way you have interracted with me here, I have been able to help my Christian friends better interact with atheists in the real world.
You have been a big part in helping me learn how to have non-Christian friends without the contitional motive of conversion. Yeah, it’s still wierd for me, but I’m WAY ahead of where I was.
It does get tiring, though, doesn’t it?
You have helped me more than you know. And 10 months ago, I would never have thought that was possible.
And it didn’t even cost me my faith!
Comment by: Mike O
7If anything, my faith is stronger because of you. You’ve made me a smarter Christian.
Comment by: Siamang
8Wow, thanks for all the positivity!
I guess we all need encouragement from time to time.. I’m sorry if this post seems like it was me trolling for encouragement.
But anyway, thanks all for providing. ;-)
I also kind of wanted to build a thread where we can have the meta-discussion about the current churn at Friendly Atheist, and why we like discussion and new people, but why we also have to be mindful of what’s going on.
I think Hemant and Mike C are doing a great job trying to keep the site on an even keel. I love their “Ask a Pastor” posts… that’s really challenging I think, for the atheists to deal with such a thoughtful Christian who is not walking blindly into atheist’s standard counter-arguments.
Mike C has had enough experience here to have a good, positive conversation about this stuff, and yet be open and honest and not manning the barricades with what I’ll call “boilerplate apologetics.”
What I mean about this is that as atheists and as christians, we all have a quiver of arrows of standard arguments and counter arguments that none of us authored, but we call into play. Pascal’s Wager, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, The problem of Evil, Free Will, etc. One could almost write a chatbot that pulled up ready-made parrys and dodges that could argue with itself, and we could sit back and retire from this discussion.
Mike C is so UNLIKE that, that he fosters a wonderful new discussion… Which is very, very cool for atheists to hear (and other christians, no doubt).
But anyway, Friendly Atheist gets a lot of traffic. A lot more than this site gets anymore. Hemant’s a mainstay in the atheist community, and his blog has become one of the must-visit spaces for atheists on the internet, probably second only to Phyrangula and maybe Internet Infidels.
I can’t diminish that. Hemant is one of the foremost atheist voices in the nation, and garners a lot of traffic. His blog is easy to read, fun, and he breaks a lot of stories.
Because of that, his site has a lot more active discussions than this one, which has seen just a wee bit o’ drop off. ;-)
So, while I LIKE the new blood he brings into the conversation (and there’s been some wonderful people), I also of course want there to continue to be a place where the conversation that we all have come to find very important, can continue.
Whether here or there, or somewhere else. I think this conversation is important.
Thanks again, everyone.
Comment by: Karen
9Hang in there, Siamang. You’re doing a great job. And thanks for the encouragement.
I had no idea Hemant’s site had become so popular until he posted about that poll and blew it out of the water. I’m sure information about it appeared elsewhere as well, but it wasn’t on Pharyngula or Panda’s Thumb or some of the other popular atheist blogs.
One thing to keep in mind: The most extreme people from both camps tend to post most often. But lurkers outnumber posters 8 or 10 to one in online communities. And the lurkers are more likely to be moderates in their viewpoint - or people who haven’t thought much about the issues being discussed.
In my opinion, it’s those middle-grounders that are most likely to be influenced positively by people (As and Cs) who are polite, logical and friendly.
Comment by: Julie Marie
10an iota? oh yeah…at least that,Siamang :) Talking with you and listening to you talk with others helped give me a place to start examining my belief system. Although I don’t post nearly as much as I used to I’m still around. Your humor has made me smile, your knowledge has impressed me, and your kindness has touched my heart.
I think thats at least an iota.
Comment by: Julie Marie
11ps and I’m so glad for the community of this site - its a welcoming place, where the respect we have for each other seems to transcend whatever our belief systems are. That makes it a place where you can take a risk and throw a new thought out there…
Comment by: Mike C
12If I have to wade through a dozen angry atheists to meet one Siamang or Helen or Karen or TX or Richard Wade or Dan Harlow or isaone or Eliza (sorry if I left someone out), it’s totally worth it to me. I value those relationships so highly that I’m willing to put up with the other crap to find them.
Comment by: cautious
13(shrug) The Internets are capable of spawning some of the worst conversations ever, but an attempt to be a real rational human being in a medium overwhelmed by the dregs of society is not a bad thing.
Susan B. Anthony spent ~55 years of her life trying to be seen as an actual human being. In those 55 years she was probably called more bad words than all of us combined will ever hear. And she died before her life’s work was realized.
The reason we remember her name and efforts is because she kept fighting. One person standing against the BS of the world can make a difference.
But! It is also important to know that not every troll on the internet deserves detailed, thought-out dialogue. Write up a few succinct, paragraph-length replies to Frequently Stupid Statements, put them all into a file on your desktop and then just copy and paste from that file whenever you feel as if someone is quoting FSS.
An example?
Comment by: Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com
14Thanks for keeping it positive.
By the way, does anyone here know of a serious Christian response specifically to Thomas Paine’s book “The Age of Reason?” I’ve been looking, and it appears to me that there was a major work but it is out of print.
…Bernie
Comment by: Siamang
15Welcome, Bernie.
Perhaps someone can chime in with a book suggestion for you.
I haven’t even read the Paine book, so I’m probably useless on that count! ;-)